European Tribune - Community, Politics & Progress.

Drug Side Effects

by Sven Triloqvist
Tue Mar 4th, 2008 at 01:50:39 PM EST

As you all know, I don't make a great distinction between biochemical metaprogramming of brain functions from either outside or inside the body. Puberty is the biggest personality-changing trip that many people ever experience. And it is genetically programmed. It's an inside job.

There are other inside jobs: your `moods' (a type of metaprogramming) are created by temporary changes in biochemical balances that may be triggered by what you take into your body for other purposes (such as eating), or by what you take into your mind for other purposes (such as unavoidable experiences).

Then there is the conscious intake of biochemicals that change balances in the functioning of the mind. It is possible to toy with these balances to play with your state of mind. That is what pleasure drugs are all about. The required effects are generally short lived - from a few seconds with amyl nitrate, to a several hour e-trip. You step out of banality for a while and then step back in.

But the psychedelic drugs have the power to permanently change the reality of the user.

Moses 'high on drugs during biblical scenes'

Benny Shanon, a professor of cognitive psychology at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, said biblical visions are most likely explained by exposure to mind-altering substances, not celestial encounters.
Writing in Time and Mind journal of philosophy, he said substances taken from plants were commonly used in early Jewish religious ceremonies and it is possible they created a mass psychosis in Moses and his followers.
Mr Shanon said plants found in the Sinai Desert, where some of Moses's miracles are reputed to have taken place, contain natural hallucinogens which can play with the mind's ability to make sense of sounds and shapes.
"As far Moses on Mount Sinai is concerned, it was either a supernatural cosmic event, which I don't believe, or a legend, which I don't believe either, or finally, and this is very probable, an event that joined Moses and the people of Israel under the effect of narcotics," Mr Shanon told Israeli public radio.

There is a difference between a self-induced delusion and a prophetic vision. A self-induced delusion is a fixed false belief usually based on ignorance (though it can be the result of permanent incomplete functioning of the brain). Either way, the delusion takes time to build into a mindset. Bush has obviously suffered both.

A prophetic experience is different because it is usually made up of a single event (or sequence of events) that shatter a mindset. Reality, for at least one onlooker, is changed forever.

It is to `see the light'. It as if reality has opened its own fourth wall, to reveal a secret plot beat of the universal drama.

So if it is not celestial events, then it is psychedelics that have created the religions of the worlds.

Speaking of changing mindsets, a far cheaper method of changing our financial system might be to acidize all the financial districts. While the prophetic effects are hard to predict, I don't think we'd be worse off in the long run.

Believe me.

I'd like to believe in Science as a better method of describing what we each perceive to be reality. Unfortunately, as with an improvised drama, one is never sure how it is going to end. All you know is what has happened so far.

Fortunately, in contrast, some of these apparently completed movies about reality can be revisited. Today sees the launch of the Director's Cut of the infamous `The Pierced Shape Redemption' starring Schwarz-Christoffel. Finally, it all makes sense.

Maths flaw found after 140 years

An existing mathematical equation, now known as the Schwarz-Christoffel formula, was independently discovered by two mathematicians in the 1860s to enable them to translate the unusual and angular shapes of the real world, whether brains or aircraft wings, into a simpler circular shape so that they are much easier to model and analyse.
However, all this time there has been a deficiency in this formula, which is well known to all engineering undergraduates: it only worked for shapes that did not contain any holes or irregularities. Now a missing factor has been found by Prof Darren Crowdy of Imperial College London.

Prof. Crowdy (far right)

Our lives have many holes and irregularities. Toying with the mind appears to deal with many of them. But it is only a DVD. Drug Vision Diary.

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Drug Side Effects | 32 comments (32 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: Drug Side Effects (none / 1)

As for Moses, there seems to be no evidence to his existence or even the existence of people enslaved by the Egyptians in the first place IIRC, so the drug problems were probably the one of the author(s) of that story.
Didn't John (the Apocalypse guy) live on this Greek island where all the mushrooms grow? You're on to something here.

Anyway, I've read of controlled LSD experiments where the subjects were asked years later how the experience related to their life and a huge majority said it was one of the best things to ever happen to them, on the same level as having a kid or something.

/makes me curious

"If you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles." Sun Tzu

by Turambar (sersguenda at hotmail com) on Tue Mar 4th, 2008 at 02:09:07 PM EST

Re: Drug Side Effects (4.00 / 2)

LSD seems to be good for you anyway. Albert Hofman (the Swiss chemist who invented it) is still alive at 101 - he's even giving a talk at a symposium on LSD in Basel this month.

by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Tue Mar 4th, 2008 at 02:18:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Drug Side Effects (none / 1)

It can also be very bad for you. Some mindsets can't go that far over the edge and get back.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Mar 4th, 2008 at 02:24:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Drug Side Effects (4.00 / 2)

never, ever, ever, try it the night before you have a dentists appointment. The sense sharpenning afterefects don't mix well with the oral experience.

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.

by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Tue Mar 4th, 2008 at 03:40:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Drug Side Effects (4.00 / 3)

Hmmm, my brain trips out enough by itself as it is which is a good source of entertainment since I don't tend to lose grip on reality (only if I've been really ill - like when I had chicken pox and thought I'd murdered a man and had to pay off the men in black with a million pounds which I reckoned would exist in change around the house).

I'm not bothered about trying anything, partly because I don't know if my brain is the type to go veering off the edge too easily and partly because I'm just not bothered. I'm also a lightweight with alcohol and with weed so most likely I'd just be really sick and not have much fun.

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Tue Mar 4th, 2008 at 05:01:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Drug Side Effects (none / 0)

Then again, you don't hear about the cases where it wasn't good for the user, 'cause those users tend to kinda not be around anymore (or at least not in a state of mind where they can communicate coherently)...

Our understanding of the brain's biochemestry and biophysics is frighteningly incomplete, a lot of psychoactive drugs are originally developed as rather strong medicine in an age when the whole clinical tests thing was still in its infancy (and the ones that are deliberately designed are rarely systematically tested for safety at all).

I think I'll pass on both the red and the blue pill.

- Jake

Ceterum censeo Chicago esse delendam

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Mar 4th, 2008 at 06:20:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Drug Side Effects (4.00 / 3)

Then again, you don't hear about the cases where it wasn't good for the user, 'cause those users tend to kinda not be around anymore (or at least not in a state of mind where they can communicate coherently)...

This is the exact reason the UK govt. re-classified mushrooms as Class A drugs. "Well, it's okay for those well-balanced middle class types, but what about those it throws over the edge?"

Psilocybin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Adverse effects
Individuals that have relatives with schizophrenia should be very careful about consuming psilocybin or any hallucinogenic drug at all due to the risk of triggering a psychosis.^[11]
In extremely rare cases the use of hallucinogens may trigger a malady called Hallucinogen persisting perception disorder. (HPPD).^[12]

Lysergic acid diethylamide - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Potential risks of LSD use
Although LSD is generally considered nontoxic, it may temporarily impair the ability to make sensible judgments and understand common dangers, thus making the user more susceptible to accidents and personal injury.
There is also some indication that LSD may trigger a dissociative fugue state in individuals who are taking certain classes of antidepressants such as lithium salts and tricyclics. In such a state, the user has an impulse to wander, and may not be aware of his or her actions, which can lead to physical injury.^[51] SSRIs are believed to interact more benignly, with a tendency to noticeably reduce LSD's subjective effects.^[52] Similar and perhaps greater reductions have also been reported with MAOIs.^[51]
As Albert Hofmann reports in LSD - My Problem Child, the early pharmacological testing Sandoz performed on the compound (before he ever discovered its psychoactive properties) indicated that LSD has a pronounced effect upon the mammalian uterus. Sandoz's testing showed that LSD can stimulate uterine contractions with efficacy comparable to ergobasine, the active uterotonic component of the ergot fungus (Hofmann's work on ergot derivatives also produced a modified form of ergobasine which became a widely accepted medication used in obstetrics, under the trade name Methergine). Therefore, LSD use by pregnant women could be dangerous and is contraindicated.^[1]
Initial studies in the 1960s and 70s raised concerns that LSD might produce genetic damage or developmental abnormalities in fetuses. However, these initial reports were based on in vitro studies or were poorly controlled and have not been substantiated. In studies of chromosomal changes in human users and in monkeys, the balance of evidence suggests no significant increase in chromosomal damage. For example, studies were conducted with people who had been given LSD in a clinical setting.^[53] White blood cells from these people were examined for visible chromosomal abnormalities. Overall, there appeared to be no lasting changes. Several studies have been conducted using illicit LSD users and provide a less clear picture. Interpretation of these data is generally complicated by factors such as the unknown chemical composition of street LSD, concurrent use of other psychoactive drugs, and diseases such as hepatitis in the sampled populations. It seems possible that the small number of genetic abnormalities reported in users of street LSD is either coincidental or related to factors other than a toxic effect of pure LSD.^[53]

My emphasis in both examples. I can imagine that persistent frequent use of hallucinogens (upwards of once a week for a period of months) might create a long-lasting psychic disturbance--though the body rapidly builds tolerance so those would have to be huge doses.

I know I bang on about this, but where is the evidence of a person taking one hit of LSD (unadulterated, adulterated product being a whole other issue related to it being made illegal) and suffering more than "an afternoon and evening I wouldn't want to have again"?

Hallucinogen health warnings:

"Don't take this if you are feeling nervous, depressed, anxious, or suffer any mental disorders."

"Take a small dose to start with, check your tolerance."

"Avoid aggressive environments."

"Avoid cars."

I've never taken LSD for the following reason:

Erowid Psilocybin Mushroom Vault : Psilocybe Mushroom FAQ

PSYCHOLOGY
"Nature's Perfect Entheogen®"¹¹

Psilocybin is juuust fine. I've tried several psychoactive drugs, including hash, LSD-25 and psilocybin. Hash usually doesn't do much - sends me into a half sleep with silly thoughts and spacey soundscape added to music... LSD doesn't do it to me either. It's probably OK if you are after low dose recreation - partying and such... High doses - too blunt, like a mental power tool. It cracks up open your head; Starring You and Your Brain for 12 hours. Every perception magnified thousandfold - it's.. it's a bit too intense. INTENSE! is the keyword. It doesn't accept any apologies or mistakes.. too harsh. I often felt like I had been immersed in some chemical, into a substance so pure and efficient it has no place in nature. Too pure. 12 hours of LSD-25 acid-bath makes you really tired... physically and mentally. But psilocybin, mm-mm, it's juuuuust fiiiine.

Voyage to the spiritworld... visions and travels, awesome mental hallucinations. It's a direct ISDN-link to the mother earth, forgiving, gentle substance. You hear the chanting of the planet and the spirit of the mushroom. It's a product of the nature, untied to the actions of men and women roaming this planet. Your body disconnected from the circuit, you may often forget it exists. Six hours - not too short, not too long. Perfect.

It should be noted that like all 'major' hallucinogens, psilocybin can precipitate psychotic episodes and uncover or aggravate previous mental illness. If you're stressed out or depressed, don't take mushrooms; if you have schizophrenia or something, DO NOT take mushrooms.

ACID IS NOT FOR EVERY BRAIN .... ONLY THE HEALTHY, HAPPY, WHOLESOME, HANDSOME, HOPEFUL, HUMOROUS, HIGH-VELOCITY SHOULD SEEK THESE EXPERIENCES. THIS ELITISM IS TOTALLY SELF-DETERMINED. UNLESS YOU ARE SELF-CONFIDENT, SELF-DIRECTED, SELF-SELECTED, PLEASE ABSTAIN.
-- Timothy Leary, Ph.D.

I think this applies to mushrooms as well. Mushrooms and acid will open your doors of perception, and once open you can never truly close them again. They are more than a purely recreational drug.

I do think there is an opening of doors that can't be closed afterwards (which is what scares some, appeals to others), hence the warnings for people with mental health problems. For me, my first trip opened the colour-perception doors, the reverse of Sven's "First you see individual trees, then your brain gets accustomed and you just note 'trees'." Before I noted colours, but not all the subtleties. It also open various doors into nature--the role of the ego...etc..etc..

Back to the LSD hammer cracking your head open, I told a bloke about that once. "Oh, that's what I like about it!" he said. "No hanging around, just whoooosh!"

So hallucinogens: don't do 'em if you don't want to move very laterally for 6-8 hours, don't do 'em if you have mental health issues; don't do 'em and do 'em and do 'em 'till you get sick (true of everything from sugar to exercise); ...

John Peel quote on LSD. "I always tell people it's a bit like going to Stratford Upon Avon. It's not that I it wasn't pleasant, but I've no urge to repeat the experience."

Hallucinogens (I'll bow to someone for lately invented psychotropics--I don't trust most modern compounds, an atavistic twitch maybe)--have a history--well...mushrooms--haven't been studied and studied for thousands of years?

(I know, you were talking about LSD--it's just grrrrr....Hey, do you know this clip?)

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Tue Mar 4th, 2008 at 07:23:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

New Brain (4.00 / 2)

Secrets of the Immortal Worms

Scientist Aziz Aboobaker and fellow researchers use the outlet as a source of planaria (flatworms). They say the worms are helping us understand stem cells and leading to advances in human medicine. The planaria are special because they have a high proportion of adult stem cells, with Dr Aboobaker nicknaming them "immortal worms".
He says: "The coolest thing is that we can take a worm in the lab, chop its head off, and within seven days the worm has grown a whole new brain. That's an incredible thing. The brain even in a simple worm like that is incredibly complex with thousands of cells that all have to be in the right place and all know what they're doing. And don't worry about the head (that was chopped off), it just re-grows a new tail and crawls off."

I was watching Sane Man last night. ;-)

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Wed Mar 5th, 2008 at 02:23:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Drug Side Effects (4.00 / 3)

Maybe it's just me being ignorant of the medical literature, but I got the distinct impression that LSD and Schrooms haven't been through anything remotely resembling phase I and II clinical trials (phase III wouldn't be relevant for recreational drugs). Neither has booze, of course, but we have reasonably good stats on that, because it's widely used (and it's legal, so there's less of a tendency to hide it from your doctor when you develop complications).

The fact that such substances have been in use for centuries does not constitute what I'd call satisfactory proof of safety - bleeding was in use for centuries as well, after all.

Now, I think that there is a strong case to be made for documenting the effects of the most widely used recreational drugs in proper trials - and I think that there is an even stronger case to be made for establishing a reporting system in which users can anonymously report side effects of drugs/combinations of drugs. For that matter, the latter kind of reporting system ought to be in place for medical drugs as well...

Of course, establishing such a reporting system would require our Dear Leaders to get their heads out of their collective backsides and recognise that illegal drug use isn't gonna go away. And after that happens, pigs will fill the skies over Brussels and Hell will host the Winter Olympics.

- Jake

Ceterum censeo Chicago esse delendam

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Wed Mar 5th, 2008 at 02:06:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Drug Side Effects (4.00 / 3)

heh...

I think shrooms have basically been tested to the limits over thousands of years, much like garlic and ginger. What worries people is that they have an effect on the mind, an irreversible effect (opening the non-completely-closeable doors of perception.) To ponder whether, over the long term, they have deleterious mental effects--how about television? I'm serious: I think it would be possible to demonstrate a correlation between hours spent watching television and various social problems.

We know that neither shrooms nor LSD are toxic, so really we're talking (I think) long term brain-changing effects. I can't find a ref. to LSD toxicity levels just now (well, I can find references like this:

LSD - Frequently Asked Questions - The Good Drugs Guide

» Is LSD poisonous?
No. LSD is one of the least toxic chemicals known to man. It is less poisonous than aspirin and vitamin C.

but I read a page the other day showing it's lethal dose compared to other substances and it was way down the list, below caffeine for example, so I'll take their word for it that it is less toxic than aspirin), so really we're asking (as you did) "Is it dangerous to my mind?"

The short answer is: Yes, if you're mind is unbalanced--but that's a warning to keep people responsible for their behaviour and as a recommendation not to engage with psychoactive substances in unsupportive environments, it's not a statement of fact.

Contrariwise, it seems that LSD can have therapeutic effects for suffering minds:

LSD helps alcoholics put down the botttle - Health News, Health & Wellbeing - Independent.co.uk

A single dose of the hallucinogenic drug LSD is an effective treatment for alcoholism - according to research led by a British doctor more than 40 years ago.
Studies on thousands of alcoholics treated with the drug in the early 1960s - before it became popular as a psychedelic street drug - showed it helped trigger a change in mental attitude leading drinkers to quit. But, in spite of its promise, the therapeutic potential of the drug has been ignored since it was banned worldwide in the late 1960s as a threat to public safety.

The main point is that it is a powerful changer of perceptions.

What people don't like about it is the uncontrollable nature of that change--whereas in fact the nature is very much controlled by environment, both physical and psychological. The advice is always to take it with people you like and trust, to be as close to a natural setting as possible--the brain is about to suddenly take in a lot more information--

Hey, there is a lot of research out there. If you're interested Erowid is a cornucopia of information on all kinds of substances, with histories, pharmacologies, first-hand reports, etc. It's a serious site, I thoroughly recommend it for anyone contemplating taking psychoactive substances, it has a great deal of recommendations, doesn't pretend either for good or ill...

Overall, I'd say there has been a LOT of research into psychoactive substances which is widely available on the net (of course!); that long term physical effects are below those of, say, caffeine, (certainly it is more dangerous to regularly drink carbonated sugar drinks--I'm serious); ...to bring clarity and more interesting thoughts, here's an interview with Albert Hofmann, discoverer of LSD. This is just a quote so's you get the link, if you're interested--he's an interesting bloke!
A Conversation with Albert Hofmann

CG: From the vantage point of where we are now, in the late 1990s, what implications do psychedelic drugs have to the field of psychiatry?
AH: I believe that shortly after LSD was discovered, it was recognized as being of great value to psychoanalysis and psychiatry. It was not considered to be an escape. It was a very important discovery at that time, and for fifteen years it could be used legally in psychiatric treatment and for scientific study in humans. During this time, Delysid, the name I gave to LSD, was used safely, and was the subject of thousands of publications in the professional literature. Actually, just last week, I had visitors from the Albert Hofmann Foundation, to whom I gave all of the original documentation, which had been stored at the Sandoz Laboratories. This early work was very well documented, and shows how well research with LSD went until it became part of the drug scene in the 1960s. So, from originally being part of the therapeutic pharmacopeia, LSD became a drug of the street and inevitably it was made illegal. Because of this reputation, it became unavailable to the medical field, and so the research, which had been very open, was stopped. Now it appears that this research may start again. The importance of such investigations appears to be recognized by the health authorities, and so it is my hope that finally the prohibition is coming to an end, and the medical field can return to the explorations which were forced to stop thirty years ago.
CG: What recommendations would you give to researchers now who want to work with these substances?
AH: When LSD was distributed legally by Sandoz, there was a little brochure which was given together with the Delysid, which explained how LSD could be used. As an aid to psychoanalysis and psychotherapy, and also as a means for psychiatrists themselves to experience these extraordinary states of mind. It was specifically stated on the package insert that the psychiatrist who was interested in using Delysid should first test it on himself.
CG: So, you would say that it is very important that the researcher, the psychiatrist, know first hand the psychedelic experience?
AH: Absolutely, absolutely. Before it can be used in clinical work, it must most definitely be taken by the psychiatrist. From the very first reports and guidelines written for LSD, this was clearly stated. And this remains of utmost importance today.

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Wed Mar 5th, 2008 at 03:47:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Drug Side Effects (none / 1)

rg:

We know that neither shrooms nor LSD are toxic, so really we're talking (I think) long term brain-changing effects. I can't find a ref. to LSD toxicity levels just now (well, I can find references like this:

Erowid LSD Vault : LSD Related Death of Elephant in 1962

In 1962, three men at the University of Oklahoma, lead by the idiosyncratic, CIA-collaborator Louis Jolyon "Jolly" West, injected LSD into an elephant for the first time. Their stated intent was to determine if LSD would induce "musth", a naturally occurring condition in which elephants become violent and uncontrollable. After a series of events, the elephant died. There is some controversy and confusion surrounding the cause of death.

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.

by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Wed Mar 5th, 2008 at 03:58:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Drug Side Effects (none / 1)

Poor Tusko!

Tusko - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Tusko: "The elephant on LSD"
"Tusko" was also the name of a male Indian elephant at the Oklahoma City Zoo. On August 3, 1962, researchers from the University of Oklahoma administered 297 mg of LSD (lysergic acid diethylamide) to him. Within five minutes he collapsed to the ground and one hour and forty minutes later he died. It is believed that the LSD was the cause of his death, although some speculate that the drugs the researchers used in an attempt to revive him may have contributed to his death.^[3]^[4]^[5]

(My bold)

By my calculations they gave Tusko 2970 hits of acid in one go (I bet they injected it); the human equivalent would be 80 doses! Imagine drinking 80 cups of coffee! Or drinking 80 pints of beer!

On t'other hand:

LSD, My Problem Child · LSD in Animal Experiments and Biological Research

The minute doses that cause death in animal experiments may give the impression that LSD is a very toxic substance. However, if one compares the lethal dose in animals with the effective dose in human beings, which is 0.0003-0.001 mg/kg (0.0003 to 0.001 thousandths of a gram per kilogram of body weight), this shows an extraordinarily low toxicity for LSD. Only a 300- to 600-fold overdose of LSD, compared to the lethal dose in rabbits, or fully a 50,000- to 100,000fold overdose, in comparison to the toxicity in the mouse, would have fatal results in human beings. These comparisons of relative toxicity are, to be sure, only understandable as estimates of orders of magnitude, for the determination of the therapeutic index (that is, the ratio between the effective and the lethal dose) is only meaningful within a given species. Such a procedure is not possible in this case because the lethal dose of LSD for humans is not known. To my knowledge, there have not as yet occurred any casualties that are a direct consequence of LSD poisoning. Numerous episodes of fatal consequences attributed to LSD ingestion have indeed been recorded, but these were accidents, even suicides, that may be attributed to the mentally disoriented condition of LSD intoxication. The danger of LSD lies not in its toxicity, but rather in the unpredictability of its psychic effects.

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Wed Mar 5th, 2008 at 07:29:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Drug Side Effects (4.00 / 2)

History House: LSD and the CIA

agreed among themselves to slip LSD into each other's drinks. The target never knew when his turn would come, but as soon as the drug was ingested a ... colleague would tell him so he could make the necessary preparations (which usually meant taking the rest of the day off). Initially the leaders of MK-ULTRA restricted the surprise acid tests to [their own] members, but when this phase had run its course they started dosing other Agency personnel who had never tripped before. Nearly everyone was fair game, and surprise acid trips became something of an occupational hazard among CIA operatives.... The Office of Security felt that [MK-ULTRA] should have exercised better judgment in dealing with such a powerful and dangerous chemical. The straw that broke the camel's back came when a Security informant got wind of a plan by a few [MK-ULTRA] jokers to put LSD in the punch served at the annual CIA Christmas office party ... a Security memo writer... concluded indignantly and unequivocally that he did 'not recommend testing in the Christmas punch bowls usually present at the Christmas office parties.'

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.

by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Wed Mar 5th, 2008 at 07:46:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Drug Side Effects (4.00 / 3)

UK - ARMY testing LSD on soldiers

"But one hour and ten minutes after taking the drug, with one man climbing a tree to feed the birds, the troop commander gave up, admitting he could no longer control his men."

I'm the one climbing the tree.

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Wed Mar 5th, 2008 at 07:52:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Oops (none / 1)

"...admitting that he could no longer control himself or his men."

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Wed Mar 5th, 2008 at 07:54:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Drug Side Effects (4.00 / 5)

My first experience of acid in the mid Seventies followed a variety of close to the edge encounters with other substances, so I knew the trick of letting go mentally but keeping hold of the string that leads you back from where you came.

I was with two very close friends - one a comedian, the other an architect who was our non-partaking guide and tea-maker. What seemed like the first 4 hours went in listening to the LP 'All Around My Hat' by Steeleye Span. I felt myself to be totally in the music and to become any instrument I wanted. I could see the strings of the guitar vibrating from 1/2 an inch away or even at a molecular level. And they were all somehow part of the room I was in.

Then we listened to a dozen or so other albums (as I recall), and the effects seem to change according to the music. Tea tasted fantastic, and the feeling was supremely peaceful. A kind of oneness with everything.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Wed Mar 5th, 2008 at 04:57:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Drug Side Effects (4.00 / 4)

rg:

What people don't like about it is the uncontrollable nature of that change--whereas in fact the nature is very much controlled by environment, both physical and psychological. The advice is always to take it with people you like and trust, to be as close to a natural setting as possible--the brain is about to suddenly take in a lot more information

I would say the advise is to take it in the company of at least one sober person who agrees to be responsible for your safety, and who will not be alarmed by any seemingly 'disturbing' developments. People you like and trust are no good if they are also fucked up, or if they might freak when you do. High levels of anxiety are common and normal and not to be avoided. Attempting to alter or turn a disturbing experience away from its course can often be more distressing than simply acknowledging its occurence and keeping on hand. On LSD, people do freak from time to time. This does not have to be a disasterous turn of events, and treating it as such is likely to make it worse. Worth keeping in mind is that a person can no longer cause themselves of their surroundings any harm if they can no longer move. Keep some rope or similar on hand. 'Natural' or 'unnatural' setting is unimportant, though a location you find comfortable to be in is probably easier to deal with. A few hours in everything tends to seem problematic and difficult. This is as it should be. Nowhere to turn, no stable ground, no points of reference, ever evaporating meaning.

I would in no way characterize LSD as some kind of a light and fun spiritual journey of serene tranquility, that's for sure. The drug wrecks your mind, smashes your ability to define yourself in relation to your own thoughts or your surroundings. It gives you a few wallops about the head, lifts you by the feet and shakes you up side down. I wouldn't think the first few hours very pleasant. Then there is the extreme, frightening, overwhelming, crushing beauty and point focus enjoyment of zero/infinite duration. The most wonderful thing, this vicious molecule. Good times.

by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Wed Mar 5th, 2008 at 05:13:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Drug Side Effects (4.00 / 3)

Heh...for now I'll stick to psilocybin.

I do wonder about the setting part, though. Definitely with zer shrooms I have to overcome the chaos, noise, and deadliness of human environments whereas trees, grass, birds create the opposite effect. In the interview above Dr. Hofmann says:

A Conversation with Albert Hofmann

CG: What would you say to young people?
AH: What I would say would most certainly be: Open your eyes! The doors of perception must be opened. That means these young people must learn by their own experience, to see the world as it was before human beings were on this planet. That is the real problem today, that people live in towns and cities, where everything is dead. This material world, made by humans, is a dead world, and will disappear and die. I would tell the young people to go out into the countryside, go to the meadow, go to the garden, go to the woods. This is a world of nature to which we belong, absolutely. It is the circle of life, of which we are an integral part. Open your eyes, and see the browns and greens of the earth, and the light which is the essence of nature. The young need to become aware of this circle of life, and realize that it is possible to experience the beauty and deep meaning which is at the core of our relation to nature.

The part about the deathliness of human artifacts resonates with my experience--I can get into it after the first hour or so, but for that first big whoooosh intake I want trees and flowers and grass--and birds, birds are great!

I think we are very different in this aspect, you don't mind so much the whack round the head, whereas I was stunned by the memorial in Amsterdam

...as we sailed past, there it was: solid and black, no flinching from the facts, just there--heh...if I ever take LSD it'll have to be in nature far from cities and cars, 'twould be great to have you along! I definitely would like some experts to hand for the trip (I can think of another ETer as well...and maybe one other....and there's one other...and another one...maybe another one...)

(re-reading the Hofmann quote I wonder if it's to do with the natural environments we grow up in. Maybe Swedish nature has a more aggressive edge when viewed through LSD? [I'm really guessing, I watched the north sea once on mushrooms and it gave off a very....cold effect.])

I've regularly thought the ideal would be to view the northern lights, mushrooms, watch the world outside our organic bubble, solar winds, maybe have some scientists to hand to explain what I'm looking at...an ET trip to view the northern lights!)

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Wed Mar 5th, 2008 at 07:48:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Drug Side Effects (none / 1)

Now that sounds like a trip and a half.

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.

by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Wed Mar 5th, 2008 at 07:53:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Drug Side Effects (4.00 / 2)

Well, I've had quite some times walking in deserted industrial areas, the nighttime quiet roads, the gracefully arching concrete overpasses and underpasses. I think, each environment can be potentially serene, potentially hostile, potentially void and dead, and potentially even the concrete can seem alive, intimately connected to the human destinies that formed it.

by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Thu Mar 6th, 2008 at 06:14:15 AM EST
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Re: Drug Side Effects (4.00 / 2)

An amazing experience is to drive up north in Finland in winter at night, far from any city and light pollution. The air is crystal clear on a cold night with no cloud. Stop and get out of the car and look up at the sky - there is the whole Milky Way in all its velvety glory. Billions of stars strewn like tiny diamonds across the heavens.

No substance abuse required.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Mar 6th, 2008 at 08:20:19 AM EST
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Re: Drug Side Effects (none / 1)

Assuming that this is correct (which I'm not sufficiently familiar with the literature to judge), it certainly makes a powerful case for (at least partial) legalisation of LSD.

I'll stick to booze as my poison, though. It serves well enough as a party drug, and when I'm not partying I like to keep my mind under my control anyway.

Then again, I can't remember when I last took an aspirin either...

- Jake

Ceterum censeo Chicago esse delendam

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Mar 11th, 2008 at 02:23:30 PM EST
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Re: Drug Side Effects (4.00 / 3)

It was for me a life-changing experience. But was only one of a number of experiments I was conducting at the time ;-)

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Mar 4th, 2008 at 02:19:30 PM EST
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Re: Drug Side Effects (none / 1)

Didn't John (the Apocalypse guy) live on this Greek island where all the mushrooms grow?

The book of Revelation is 100% hallucinogenic trip inspired.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Tue Mar 4th, 2008 at 05:07:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Patmos (none / 1)

And yes, Greece has funny shrums. And that John dude clearly didn't know when to stop.

I'm pretty sure that much silliness in history has to do with shrums and ergot.

Facts, selfish little bastards. They don't even care about your feelings.

by Francois in Paris on Tue Mar 4th, 2008 at 05:42:02 PM EST
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Re: Patmos (4.00 / 2)

Mandrake (Mandragora), supposedly John was high on mandrake I believe.

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake

by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Tue Mar 4th, 2008 at 07:08:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Drug Side Effects (4.00 / 2)

Hmm, my esperiences with psychedelic drugs are confined to 3 low-dose mushroom trips (ie utterly legal). I had a nice time and never felt the need to investigate further. Friends who did ended up in trouble over it so I'm kinda glad. It also meant I wasn't remotely tempted by LSD or E, whatever the cultural sales pitch. I think at some level I realised that, whatever it might have offered, I really didn't want it.

Other experiences with illegals was occasional and marked mostly by indifference on my part. I always much preferred beer to any other means of derangement.

Of course, the major mental event in my later life has been ongoing re-programming caused by removing testosterone from my sytem and replacing it with oestrogen. My esperiences are detailed in my diary Men/Women : Emotion and multi-tasking

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Mar 4th, 2008 at 02:17:58 PM EST

Re-programming (4.00 / 2)

And an experience that very few go through, I guess.

People settle in to their own version of reality - it is rare that the reality is changed as radically as you must have experienced.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Mar 4th, 2008 at 02:23:15 PM EST
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Re: Drug Side Effects (4.00 / 3)

I admittedly enjoyed some psychedelic drugs in my youth. But I've always been much more interested in and have had more meaningful and lasting insights as a result of my collective "organic" experiences: death, suffering, love, friendship, "the stuff that happens to us just because we are alive." To each his own. I'm not interested in religion, be it induced by a book or by a pill. I AM interested in the human condition that leads people to "religions" they choose. The "how did you get to the point where you needed to ..." Drugs, which I am certainly no great moralizer about, recognizing that we are all just trying to figure this life out, just seem to provide a predictable and inauthentic experience in comparison to being alive, which is as much of a mind-shattering trip as I can imagine.

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."

by poemless on Tue Mar 4th, 2008 at 02:26:47 PM EST

Re: Drug Side Effects (4.00 / 2)

I agree, though I still point out that the carbon-based experiences are still the result of the same feedback process whereby events interfacing with an individual mindset will modify that mindset - which in turn will modify future experiences.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Mar 4th, 2008 at 02:32:04 PM EST
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Re: Drug Side Effects (4.00 / 4)

my favourite mind altering external influence is the flicker of light on water... can actually feel it doing things -- nice, warm, fuzzy things -- to my brain. side effects are generally manageable -- mild hypothermia and hunger if too long is spent hypnotised by the pretty lights :-)

The difference between theory and practise in practise ...

by DeAnander (de_at_daclarke_dot_org) on Tue Mar 4th, 2008 at 02:39:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yeah... (4.00 / 4)

That's my kind of drug. Or the gentle susurrus of wind swishing through high tree tops, or the dancing flames of a friendly fire. Hours of entertainment. I generally get a sleep-kick.

It suffices. Plenty.

by Nomad on Tue Mar 4th, 2008 at 03:31:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Drug Side Effects | 32 comments (32 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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