European Tribune

Neuropsychiatry and religion

by melo
Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 01:49:37 AM EST

I just finished reading a very thought-provoking  piece I immediately wanted to share with ET'ers  given by Professor Robert Sapolsky.

Robert Sapolsky is a professor of neurology at Stanford University. He received an A.B. in Biological Anthropology from Harvard (Phi Beta Kappa) in 1978 and his Ph.D. in Neuroendocrinology from Rockefeller University in 1984. He did postdoctoral work at the Salk Institute and was a research associate at the Institute of Primate Research, National Museums of Kenya (1985). He is a MacArthur Fellow (1987) and has won many awards for teaching, science investigation and writing. His four books include the bestselling A Primate's Memoir (2001), The Trouble with Testosterone and Other Essays on the Biology of the Human Predicament (1998), and Why Zebras Don't Get Ulcers (1994).

He makes some very funny and fascinating points about biology and schizophrenia.

Here's a taste-

The frontal cortex, the most recently evolved part of our brain, the most distinctly human part of our brain, is not of trivial relevance. It's the last part of our brain to fully develop. Not until around age 30 is our frontal cortex completely online, which may explain a whole lot about what was going on about 20 years ago in your life. [laughter] The frontal cortex is the nearest thing we have to a superego. The frontal cortex keeps the rest of your limbic system, your emotional part of the brain, from going out of control.

<more below>


I'm still coming to terms with what i've just read, and I think it might be helpful to hear others here, seeing how sometimes we have skirted similar subjects. Sven has set my mind going frequently with his tantalising snippets about neuropsychiatry, and this excerpt from the good professor's speech has really shaken my tree, in a good way.

Humour has a way of softening the most brutal of discoveries!

The challenge of trying to make sense of the biology of some of the really interesting things we do as humans, including invented belief systems, is recognizing us as just another off-the-rack mammal. Some of the time it's just another plain-old mammal using standard physiology in utterly unstandard ways, and some of the time it's built around us being unlike anything that's ever existed before on this planet.

Now, when you put together all these realms of knowledge--people studying the genetics of the brain, the early experience, the hormones and neurotransmitters--what you wind up seeing is, we're getting an amazing amount of insight about all sorts of outposts of our behavior. What one has to be left with is a certain awe at the mechanistic feel of all of it: how we are sort of products of the material bases of our brains.

This last sentence sums up the slightly uneasy sense of enlightenment I'd feel tingling through my rapidly dwindling grey matter as Sven's comments would show up regarding how the brain works.

Here's a scenario: 40-year-old guy, 20-year happy marriage, white-collar job, living in the suburbs, utterly colorless, stable life. One day, from out of nowhere, he punches somebody in the face at work, in his office, some guy at the water cooler who had made some comment about a sports team. This guy hasn't had a fight since junior high school. Utterly bizarre, unprecedented. Three months later, his wife of this 20-year marriage discovers he's been having an affair with a 17-year-old kid at the checkout down at the supermarket. Totally bizarre. Three months later, he's arrested for drunken brawling in a bar--and he never even used to drink. Three months later, he embezzles the funds from his workplace, disappears, and is never seen again.

How can we explain this guy?

Explanation number one: the guy is no damned good. [laughter]

Explanation number two: he's having the world's most dramatic and childish midlife crisis.

Explanation number three: it's a neurological disease; he has a single-gene defect that makes him do this.

This, amazingly, is what a particular neurological disease looks like, a disease called Huntington's Disease, Huntington's chorea. Huntington's chorea is most famous for a neuro-muscular disorder: it starts with a tremoring, and by the time it's done with, you have your entire body writhing--absolutely horrendous. It kills you within a decade or so. It gets you in your mid-40s, Woody Guthrie being the most famous Huntington's Disease case. Three or four years before it's a neurological disease, it's a psychiatric disorder. You see precisely the profile that was just described: people become disinhibited. You find Huntington's patients are famed for always showing up in the dayroom in the hospital having forgotten to wear half of their pajamas, and things of that sort. It causes a massive disinhibition of the personality, and initially, it's a psychiatric disorder. It's not a mid-life crisis--it's a single-gene defect.

Holy Having A Cow!

So you then begin to ask, "What do modern neuroscience and psychiatry begin to tell us about how we as a species invent these systems of belief, these systems of organized, shared, ritualized, culture-bound beliefs?" What does this tell us about religion?

It turns out there's a whole bunch of outposts where neuropsychiatry tells us something about the stuff we keep creating in culture after culture. Let me tell you about two very interesting examples of this, amid many.

One of them has to do with one of the great puzzles when people think about the evolution of psychiatric disorders. Ever deal with anybody with one of the most horrendous of all psychiatric diseases, schizophrenia, and you come away just appalled at how a life can be demolished by some biological storm in the brain. Schizophrenia: a disease of disordered thought, disconnected socialization, hallucinations, paranoia, delusions, a 50% rate of attempted suicide. This is a totally disastrous disease, and it's one that we're very, very slowly beginning to understand the neurochemistry of.

One of the keys about schizophrenia is that it's a disorder with a genetic component. That doesn't mean it is genetically guaranteed. It is not genetically determined. There is a genetic risk for this disease, as is the case with most psychiatric disorders.

The minute you see there's any genetics on the scene, you've got to ask an evolutionary question, which is: "Where did these genes evolve from?" Why do we have schizophrenia in every culture on this planet? From an evolutionary perspective, schizophrenia is not a cool thing to have.

What's evolution about? Evolution is the process by which adaptive traits become more common. Schizophrenia is not an adaptive trait. You can show this formally: schizophrenics have a lower rate of leaving copies of their genes in the next generation than unaffected siblings. By the rules, by the economics of evolution, this is a maladaptive trait. Yet, it chugs along at a one to two percent rate in every culture on this planet.

So what's the adaptive advantage of schizophrenia? It has to do with a classic truism--this business that sometimes you have a genetic trait which in the full-blown version is a disaster, but the partial version is good news.

What's the example we all learned in the textbook case? Sickle-cell anemia: full-blown version, fatal hematological disorder; partial version, you don't get malaria. Tay Sachs disease: full-blown version, your nervous system is destroyed within a couple of months of life; partial version, you're resistant to tuberculosis. Cystic fibrosis: full-blown version, you're typically dead by 20; partial version, you're resistant to cholera. This turns out to be a theme with a lot of human genetics. As long as there's enough folks with the advantageous partial version, you can afford the occasional cousin with the full-blown version.

Aaaaah, copy that...

The first study that found genetic evidence for schizophrenics looked at about 20,000 people adopted in Denmark, looking at patterns of inheritability of schizophrenia; were you likely to share schizophrenic traits with your adopted parents, or your biological parents?

This was a massive multi-year study. Psychiatrists talked to more relatives of schizophrenics than any psychiatrists had ever done before in a career. What they noticed was, there's something kind of weird about relatives of schizophrenics--not every single one of them, but at higher than expected rates. This "kinda weirdness" is now called "schizotypal personality."

What is schizotypal? It's a more subtle version of schizophrenia. This is not somebody who's completely socially crippled; they're just solitary, detached: these are the lighthouse keepers, the projectionists in the movie theaters. These are not people who are thought-disordered to the point of being completely nonfunctional; these are people who just believe in kinda strange stuff. They are into their Star Trek conventions. They're into their astrology, they're into their telepathy and their paranormal beliefs, they're into--and you can see now where I'm heading [laughter]--very, very literal, concrete interpretations of religious events.

Schizophrenics have a whole lot of trouble telling the level of abstraction of a story. They're always biased in the direction of interpreting things more concretely than is actually the case. You would take a schizopohrenic and say, "Okay, what do apples, bananas and oranges have in common?" and they would say, "They all are multi-syllabic words." [laughter] You say "Well, that's true. Do they have anything else in common?" and they say, "Yes, they actually all contain letters that form closed loops." [laughter] This is not seeing the trees instead of the forest, this is seeing the bark on the trees, this very concreteness.

What you find with schizotypals is what is called metamagical thinking, a very strong interest in new-age beliefs, science fiction, fantasy, religion, but in a very concrete, literal form, a very fundamentalist style. Somebody walking on water is not a metaphor. Somebody rising from the dead is not a metaphor; this is reported, literal fact.

Now we have to ask our evolutionary question: "Who are the schizotypals throughout 99% of human history?" And in the 1930s, decades before the word "schizotypal" even existed, anthropologists already had the answer.

It's the shamans. It's the medicine men. It's the medicine women. It's the witch doctors. In the 1930s an anthropologist named Paul Radin first described it as "shamans being half mad," shamans being "healed madmen." This fits exactly. It's the shamans who are moving separate from everyone else, living alone, who talk with the dead, who speak in tongues, who go out with the full moon and turn into a hyena overnight, and that sort of stuff. It's the shamans who have all this metamagical thinking. When you look at traditional human society, they all have shamans. What's very clear, though, is they all have a limit on the number of shamans. That is this classic sort of balanced selection of evolution. There is a need for this subtype--but not too many.

The critical thing with schizotypal shamanism is, it is not uncontrolled the way it is in the schizophrenic. This is not somebody babbling in tongues all the time in the middle of the hunt. This is someone babbling during the right ceremony. This is not somebody hearing voices all the time, this is somebody hearing voices only at the right point. It's a milder, more controlled version.

Shamans are not evolutionarily unfit. Shamans are not leaving fewer copies of their genes. These are some of the most powerful, honored members of society. This is where the selection is coming from. What this shamanistic theory says is, it's not schizophrenia that's evolved, it's schizotypal shamanism that's evolved. In order to have a couple of shamans on hand in your group, you're willing to put up with the occasional third cousin who's schizophrenic. That's the argument; and it's a very convincing one.

If you look at all these 1930s and 1940s anthropologists, there's a certain dead-white-male racism that runs through all of this stuff that anthropology still has not recovered from. If you read their writings, what was between the lines--and often not between the lines--was, this is about "them." This is about the folks with the bones in their noses and no clothes who wind up in the National Geographic nudie pictures. These are them and their subjective paranormal beliefs; thank God we live in objective modern societies. [laughter]

I've quoted enough, if you enjoyed what he has to say, you can click the link and read the rest.

Why it's personal...

One of my grandfathers spent 40 years committed in an asylum with dementia, the other one narrowly missed that fate, the few stories that survived the victorian shame blackout on his vagaries have me pretty sure of a genetic component on that side of the family towards schizophrenia also.

When I was 17 psychiatrists wanted to have me committed for schizophrenia, and I talked my caregivers out of it. The next year found me incarcerated in a prison for the criminally insane for three months, exiting due to luck and lawyers.

What I saw there affected me deeply, and even though it was 30+ years ago, I can still remember acutely many details, many i'd happily forget, and some which stayed as positive life lessons.

Life has offered enough ways to maintain psychic equilibrium that I can stay out of trouble, (some here may not agree!),  every day brings its special challenges to stay 'sane', or as close to that wind as I can sail. ET has been wonderful therapy in this regard, and I thank you all for your collective intelligent humanity and wicked funny insights.

'Ok, I may be mad, but most of the others (you included) are way madder, they just don't know it'.

That's been my mantra for many decades, and it's kept me going. As we shift into post-industrial mode I have a hunch things will get easier in some ways, as what really screws up reception is the staggering amount of trivia, and the hysterical reporting of it, an orgy of banality, the 'all noise, no signal' nature of so much social discourse while really important group survival issues are left relatively unconsidered.

ET is where I've found these really important issues I've tossed awake nights over addressed, with warmth, wit and wisdom.

I hope you all enjoyed the read, perhaps some here will recognise schizotypical traits in themselves, and be willing to discuss them. I know how much shame is associated with mental illness, having felt (and been) suicidal on several occasions during my sojourn here on this once-fair planet, due to the existential alienation I experience(d), but am happy to say that each day brings new hope that balance can be found, and that I can make my life worthier of the space and resources I consume.

Rage, depression and a rather manic approach to art have all been friends along the way, acceptance and sharing have been slow in coming, but bring some much-needed peace after decades of self-corroding angst, dysfunction and self-hatred.

Redemption takes many shapes and forms; as the relativity of cultural assumptions becomes clearer, the years of living on the abyss's edge seem to have somewhat preparational for what's unfolding, though much remains largely to be seen and tested. Mostly, concern about the external drama of the global social challenges rearing up to meet us has finally outpaced my solipsistic inner wrestling with concepts that always seemed strangely removed from 'consensus' reality, yet seemed like they somehow underpinned it, in a largely unacknowledged way.

I'll never be 'normal', but I can be useful, and let go of the need to cover shame about my condition with braggadocio and false pride in being 'weird'.

Such egoism.... (more than) enough (hell, way too much) about me...what do you all think about this lecture? Does it ring explicative bells for you too? Anyone read any of his books? Have others here been branded by psychiatry and its oft-facile terminology? If so, what helps you cope?

Thanks for listening,

Peace out

melo

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there's hope...

In a study appearing today in the journal PloS Biology (online at www.plosbiology.org), researchers describe the drastic temperamental and tonal shift that occurred in a troop of 62 baboons when its most belligerent members vanished from the scene. The victims were all dominant adult males that had been strong and snarly enough to fight with a neighboring baboon troop over the spoils at a tourist lodge garbage dump, and were exposed there to meat tainted with bovine tuberculosis, which soon killed them. Left behind in the troop, designated the Forest Troop, were the 50 percent of males that had been too subordinate to try dump brawling, as well as all the females and their young. With that change in demographics came a cultural swing toward pacifism, a relaxing of the usually parlous baboon hierarchy, and a willingness to use affection and mutual grooming rather than threats, swipes and bites to foster a patriotic spirit.

Remarkably, the Forest Troop has maintained its genial style over two decades, even though the male survivors of the epidemic have since died or disappeared and been replaced by males from the outside. (As is the case for most primates, baboon females spend their lives in their natal home, while the males leave at puberty to seek their fortunes elsewhere.) The persistence of communal comity suggests that the resident baboons must somehow be instructing the immigrants in the unusual customs of the tribe.

''We don't yet understand the mechanism of transmittal,'' said Dr. Robert M. Sapolsky, a professor of biology and neurology at Stanford, ''but the jerky new guys are obviously learning, 'We don't do things like that around here

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C03E6DB1E38F930A25757C0A9629C8B63

Peace is not the absence of war -- peace is the absence of fear. Ursula Franklin

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 02:11:26 AM EST
Thank you Melo! Lots of information, will have to ponder on it first.

Interesting story about the baboons, reminds me of the story about the iland monkeys incoporating washing their sweet potatoes.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 03:45:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
yup, that was a great story i heard too, perhaps the source of the 'hundreth monkey' tales.

i am fascinated by this kind of stuff and have been enjoying this guy's work from further googling since posting the diary.

check this out-

Stanford Magazine > November/December 2001 > Feature Story > Going Wild

But in the best of circumstances, darting wild and wily baboons with a blowgun is not easy, "even with a college education," Sapolsky says.
...
As with most of his writing, the book is very funny. New York Times reviewer Patricia Leigh Brown called Sapolsky a cross between Jane Goodall and a Borscht Belt comedian, but most of his stories are closer to Woody Allen's than Henny Youngman's--incisive (and sometimes tragic) comedies of manners, topsy-turvy struggles across hierarchical lines for power and romance.
...

In most of these stories, Sapolsky is happy to use the time-honored narrative device of playing the buffoon: the rube who gets conned repeatedly the first day in Nairobi, the guy who year after year makes the nauseating mistake of stocking mackerel as his sole protein source on the savanna because he is in a rush to get there. He compares himself to a favorite baboon in the troop, Benjamin, who has "beserko" hair, stumbles over his feet and always manages to sit on the stinging ants.
...
Born to Russian immigrants in Brooklyn, N.Y., he used to beg them to take him again and again to the Museum of Natural History, where he yearned to crawl into the African dioramas and live there. As an Orthodox Jewish kid "with no proclivities toward athletics or gang violence," Sapolsky spent a lot of time reading and imagining living with silverback gorillas. By age 12, he was writing fan letters to primatologists; by high school, he was reading textbooks on the subject and teaching himself Swahili.
...

Courtesy Robert Sapolsky
Baboons--singular-looking primates with a wild hairdo, close-set eyes, a long muzzle and permanent leathery pads covering their rear ends--are great subjects for studying social stress, Sapolsky says, because they live in large, complex groups. Those who inhabit the open Serengeti Plain find plenty of food and few predators. They therefore must devote only about four hours each day to feeding themselves and have a half-dozen hours of daylight to make life miserable for each other. "Baboons, like humans, have the luxury of making themselves sick with purely psychological stress," Sapolsky says.
...

After a time it became clear to Sapolsky that the baboons saw him as one of the troop, albeit the lowest, most pathetic member. There is a certain look, a certain set of signals, that one baboon will give another when he is about to be mauled by a more dominant baboon. That look tells the bystander, "Hey, can you help me out here?" Occasionally, when no other potential saviors were around, a desperate baboon would give Sapolsky such a signal. "I think they were hoping I'd run the other baboon over with my jeep," he says.
...
Sapolsky sees applications of primatology in everyday life--for example, in the struggle for dominance at faculty meetings. His strategies for academic survival borrow from the baboons' diplomatic skills: "I've learned to make coalitions and occasionally stick my rear in the air in a subordinate manner," Sapolsky says.
...
Sapolsky sees applications of primatology in everyday life--for example, in the struggle for dominance at faculty meetings. His strategies for academic survival borrow from the baboons' diplomatic skills: "I've learned to make coalitions and occasionally stick my rear in the air in a subordinate manner," Sapolsky says.

way to make life an adventure!

Peace is not the absence of war -- peace is the absence of fear. Ursula Franklin

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 03:57:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Great find, melo.

Sapolsky also wrote a long and fascinating article about these baboons, as well as bonobos, rhesus monkeys and macaques, in Foreign Affairs (2006 January/February): "A Natural History of Peace".

He also discusses interpretations and implications of these studies for human society:

On using "fission-fusion social structures" to achieve the cooperative advantages of small groups ("small, stable bands of related hunter-gatherers") without the downsides of extreme conformism and xenophobia:

The interactions among hunter-gatherers resemble those of other networks, where there are individual nodes (in this case, small groups) and where the majority of interactions between the nodes are local ones, with the frequency of interactions dropping off as a function of distance. Mathematicians have shown that when the ratios among short-, middle-, and long-distance interactions are optimal, networks are robust: they are dominated by highly cooperative clusters of local interactions, but they also retain the potential for less frequent, long-distance communication and coordination.

(echoes and intimations of ChrisCook's "cooperative of cooperatives" and ThatBritGuy's peer-to-peer economic model [which comment I cannot find anymore], among others.)

On whether humans are hardwired for xenophobia:

experiments have shown that when subjects are presented with a face of someone from a different race, the amygdala gets metabolically active -- aroused, alert, ready for action. This happens even when the face is presented "subliminally," which is to say, so rapidly that the subject does not consciously see it.

More recent studies, however, should mitigate this pessimism. Test a person who has a lot of experience with people of different races, and the amygdala does not activate. Or, as in a wonderful experiment by Susan Fiske, of Princeton University, subtly bias the subject beforehand to think of people as individuals rather than as members of a group, and the amygdala does not budge. Humans may be hard-wired to get edgy around the Other, but our views on who falls into that category are decidedly malleable.



Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.
by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 04:47:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
wow, that is hopeful...  thanks for the link, bruno-ken, 6 pages of smile-inducing education ahead!

Peace is not the absence of war -- peace is the absence of fear. Ursula Franklin
by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 05:22:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thank you for that nice "piece" :-)
In a few paragraphs it covers Mircea Eliade's History of Religions 5 tomes !
It's all about finding a "niche"...

Lately I had a student, full recognized schizophrenia (not yet paranoid) with the full regalia of virgin mary in flying saucers.
The problem was that he was in architecture studies and seemed stuck at mid cursus... So I took on myself to interview the parents and some specialists and managed to shift him in an equivalent school where the major is art, but with minors as land art, stage design, etc.

Because of his family's beliefs "He has to do something", the recoiling of them "but NOT theological studies", the poor lad was raised with more materiality then ever (they must have though architecture was "soft" engineering :-) ).
Because of the frontal engagement with reality, getting worse after each years of study (nuts and bolts), his state was worsening and other students were starting to be afraid of him.
Art studies, in my reckoning, would allow some of the steam off, a possible path to deal with society and a diploma for his parents !
It seems to have worked... At least on the social side, as on the medical condition I'm not competent.

This example to show that, as stated in your diary, we are not anymore in the times of witch burning (er... Did I say that? "We shouldn't be" would be more accurate), and some knowledge about those big categories of nuttingness that we all share (even our Prezs, one being delusional, the other having compulsion disorders :-) ) shows the importance of "niches"...

The industrial 19th century followed by the "all to one" vision of the 20th century has shrank the "public space" giving us few elbow room for our "manias"!
The 21th century with it's added layers of complexity, it's variety of  local solutions (energy), it's new jobs or crafts (second life and al) might be a time of "niches", recognized and maybe amplified by society...

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman

by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 04:01:16 AM EST
wonderful comment, margouillat, thanks.

great story too. i think your advice was spot on. perhaps your student's imagination, that could have been handy in architecture, was not given space to flower, so then repressed, made him incapable of addressing the nuts and bolts aspects.

as for theology...was that your prime choice?

comparative religion would be better, i believe. theology is so system-partisan, isn't it?

or perhaps one can study comparative theology too?

religions have cosmologies, or pretend to. would that be different?

perhaps that word has been possessed by physics nowadays...

unreasonable demands and overprojection from parents can be killers.

the poor lad was raised with more materiality then ever

ah yes...well i know better than to go 'there' here...

Peace is not the absence of war -- peace is the absence of fear. Ursula Franklin

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 04:38:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You are right, I wrote "theology" to make it short, as here, in university it's more about compared theology (remember, in France there's no privileged faith since we are a république :-) )!

In fact, it was one of his choices, but the family (who was after all looking after him), said it was a no,no ! Putting him on an edge with his family wasn't something I wanted to do, as I was "nobody", just a teacher, and usually don't get so far in my students lives, but this was getting dangerous for him as for us !

Cosmologies are everywhere, from peak oil to individual housing... LOL!

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman

by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 05:05:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
considering how much time kids spend with their school teachers compared to with their parents, "nobody", just a teacher is a joke...i knew you were snarking....

i guess standard treatment these days would be to dumb him down with meds, so he can behave, but not much else.

well done for trying... talk about delicate situations!

there again, i bet you've had your share, in that job. poor kid.

i think once we value good art enough, which takes a lot of time and dedication, as you know, it could reach right down deep inside where the root of human desire/need for religion is born, and satisfy it.
....if it doesn't become hierarchised and canonised too much.

it's served religion long enough, maybe it's time the table turned.

religion purports to answer the deep questions, but too often it teaches people to stop questioning and obey their so-called superior.

i'm hoping art has a built-in immunity, we'll see.

i never knew you could study theology academically without subscribing to 'the team', vive la france!

Cosmologies are everywhere, from peak oil to individual housing... LOL!

:)

Peace is not the absence of war -- peace is the absence of fear. Ursula Franklin

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 09:35:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Art can be a very powerful tool and not only an end...
Each time some association or the other, used it with an open mind on kids in social dead ends, it worked for most, sparking from time to time interest from the "officially recognized" fashion of the moment artist :-)

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman
by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 09:50:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
art cuts through class like no other blade.

it really is 'the lie that tells the truth', as picasso famously said.

Peace is not the absence of war -- peace is the absence of fear. Ursula Franklin

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 05:19:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

art cuts through class like no other blade.

Oh really? Check out Bunuel's disillusioned assessment of the Surrealists - for example.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Sat Mar 8th, 2008 at 07:03:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Or more literally, Bourdieu's La Distinction which points out that the perception of art is socially determined.

Auferre, trucidare, rapere, falsis nominibus imperium; atque, ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Sun Mar 9th, 2008 at 03:24:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]


The industrial 19th century followed by the "all to one" vision of the 20th century has shrank the "public space" giving us few elbow room for our "manias"!
The 21th century with it's added layers of complexity, it's variety of  local solutions (energy), it's new jobs or crafts (second life and al) might be a time of "niches", recognized and maybe amplified by society...

Don't you think you might be slightly oversimplifying history? :-) I don't recognise your version of the 20th c. as compared with the little bit we've had of the 21st.  

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 06:08:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
LOL !
"My" version of the 20th century is about mass production that lead to mass consumption and to "mass" way of thinking.
My very own viewpoint is that it led to more mainstream categorizing then what existed in the 19th, under a veil of individual liberties...

We allowed much more but stigmatized in proportion, or didn't even have to tag new ways of living as they are managed at another level (do you have an I-pod?)... That you cant reach that easily !

But then I might have read too much Alvin Toffler's Shockwave :-)

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman

by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 06:22:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, the 20th century did include such things as the growth of mass travel, you weren't so confined to your locality. With cheap air travel for the masses, they could directly experience other cultures - even if Brits did prefer to eat fish and chips in Spain :-) The teenager was "discovered" in the 50s - as a new market - new music, fashion, styles in everything. Soon kids could choose a variety of life-styles, bohemian, hippie, rocker, punk, new romantic, etc. The growth in mass education to uni level meant many more opportunities and  opened eyes, hence student radicalism, anti-Vietnam, May 68, etc. etc. Radio, film and TV also opened up the world for many, not to mention the internet. Not all of these things were entirely positive of course, the emphasis on individualism in the consumer culture leads to fragmentation cf: "Bowling Alone", etc. But in many ways the 20th c. produced massive diversity.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 07:11:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ted Welch:
in many ways the 20th c. produced massive diversity

Yes...And no :-)
We were on the "niches" questions, not really individuality (that always existed anyhow), nor some sort of fashion model...
While I agree on general awareness, I'm not really sure it worked apart for some happy-few (that aren't so happy about it :-) )

Most jobs don't allow for those life styles decorum (Try to find a job in hard punk regalia)! All those small jobs that were "open" to various "niche people" have disappeared !

We have here the problem with illiterate people... They just can't find a job as even the lowest ones need for the applicant to see signs or get data on a computer, even with a card or a bar code system, you need to see if it's validated or not.

The "village idiot" had it's value in older times, and could live by himself in a society that could use him with his difference... Today the same person would either be in healthcare system or would sleep under the bridges!

Those 20th century's progress you're speaking of, will be much more efficient in the 21th century when those local or even micro-local jobs will be needed thus recognised by the "new" society.

Well, that was what I was trying to say a bit quickly :-)

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman

by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 08:12:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
margouillat:
Ted Welch:
in many ways the 20th c. produced massive diversity

Yes...And no :-)
We were on the "niches" questions, not really individuality (that always existed anyhow),

Individuals always existed, individuality came to be valued during the Renaissance, but for a limited range of people. Individualism became, ironically a mass movement in the 20th century, focused through advertising on trivial choices and in politics on irrational fears and desires, CF.:

Adam Curtis does not shy away from controversial subject matters in his documentaries, nor does he hold back from taking a particular point of view, eschewing the idea of a neutral narrator. In his 2002, 4 part documentary series `The Century of the Self' he explores the influence of public relations techniques developed by Edward Bernay's in the 1920's (which, in turn were influenced by his uncle Sigmund Freud) - in particular, their relationship to the evolving conception of the individual self in the twentieth century. This changing notion of self is juxtaposed continuously with the nature of the democratic political system in western capitalist societies and expresses the essential thesis that Bernay's techniques led to the evolution of a concept of individual self which has exposed modern democracies to the irrational forces driving the modern individual person - and hence has endangered modern democracy itself.
...
Curtis describes how Thatcherism and Reaganism in the late 70's and 80's were the political movements which were underpinned in this new optimism in the individual. The aim was to get government off the backs of the individual and to let them express themselves as they liked. The left, which was still preaching the higher values of self sacrifice for the common good, was "left" in the dust. Voters left them in droves for the conservatives who embodied this new sense of freedom and autonomy for the individual.

http://danielhaggard.com/?p=10

 nor some sort of fashion model...
While I agree on general awareness, I'm not really sure it worked apart for some happy-few (that aren't so happy about it :-) )

Most jobs don't allow for those life styles decorum (Try to find a job in hard punk regalia)!

In fact given all the new areas of work like fashion, media, computing, etc. there is FAR more possibility of non-standard dress at work.


 Those 20th century's progress you're speaking of, will be much more efficient in the 21th century when those local or even micro-local jobs will be needed thus recognised by the "new" society.

They had already made a vast difference in the 20th c.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 04:53:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Adam Curtis does not shy away from controversial subject matters in his documentaries, nor does he hold back from taking a particular point of view, eschewing the idea of a neutral narrator. In his 2002, 4 part documentary series `The Century of the Self' he explores the influence of public relations techniques developed by Edward Bernay's in the 1920's (which, in turn were influenced by his uncle Sigmund Freud) - in particular, their relationship to the evolving conception of the individual self in the twentieth century.

found it on amazon last month, really, really good, even essential.

nice catch, ted...

Peace is not the absence of war -- peace is the absence of fear. Ursula Franklin

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 05:45:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Some good points but I'm not convinced... yet ! :-)
I'll have to read a few book in english to get back some proper vocabulary as it seems I missed a step up there!

I have a hunch we're not speaking of the same thing, but it could be also a viewpoint problem :-)

Anyhow, I'll be back at it after the week end...

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman

by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 06:00:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
 more hilarity in the same vein...


Dr. Sapolsky, who is renowned for his study of the physiology of stress, said that the Forest Troop baboons probably felt as good as they acted. Hormone samples from the monkeys showed far less evidence of stress in even the lowest-ranking individuals, when contrasted with baboons living in more rancorous societies.

The researchers were able to compare the behavior and physiology of the contemporary Forest Troop primates to two control groups: a similar-size baboon congregation living nearby, called the Talek Troop, and the Forest Troop itself from 1979 through 1982, the era that might be called Before Alpha Die-off, or B.A.D.

LOL!

more

The new work vividly demonstrates that, Putumayo records notwithstanding, humans hold no patent on multiculturalism. As a growing body of research indicates, many social animals learn from one another and cultivate regional variants in skills, conventions and fashions. Some chimpanzees crack open their nuts with a stone hammer on a stone anvil; others prefer wood hammers on wood anvils. The chimpanzees of the Tai forest rain-dance; those of the Gombe tickle themselves. Dr. Jane Goodall reported a fad in one chimpanzee group: a young female started wiggling her hands, and before long, every teen chimp was doing likewise.

But in the baboon study, the culture being conveyed is less a specific behavior or skill than a global code of conduct. ''You can more accurately describe it as the social ethos of group,'' said Dr. Andrew Whiten, a professor of evolutionary and developmental psychology at the University of St. Andrews in Scotland who has studied chimpanzee culture. ''It's an attitude that's being  transmitted.'' (ed-. emphasis mine)



Peace is not the absence of war -- peace is the absence of fear. Ursula Franklin
by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 05:01:22 AM EST

Dr. Sapolsky, who is renowned for his study of the physiology of stress, said that the Forest Troop baboons probably felt as good as they acted. Hormone samples from the monkeys showed far less evidence of stress in even the lowest-ranking individuals, when contrasted with baboons living in more rancorous societies.

I witnessed how quickly a group can become more "rancorous". The school of arts and media in the uni had been run by a very amiabale, laid-back guy and that was pretty typical of such groups and was pleasant to work in. That all changed when a new head of school arrived, a small man and a bully. I was amazed at how even senior staff allowed themselves to be bullied (when he finally picked on me I fought back, and true to type, he retreated). The levels of stress were very high, especially when some others started aping him, and bullied some of their underlings.

At a more general level I've read reports of how anglo-saxon management styles have been introduced  in France and that a high percentage of French workers now feel stressed, cf. the spate of suicides at Peugeot:

"4 suicides en 15 jours chez Peugeot "

http://news.caradisiac.com/4-suicides-en-15-jours-chez-Peugeot-571

The current issue of Marianne has an article on all the people benefitting from this: stress management experts, etc.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 06:30:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
At a more general level I've read reports of how anglo-saxon management styles have been introduced  in France and that a high percentage of French workers now feel stressed, cf. the spate of suicides at Peugeot:

that is so sad. Anglo Disease with a vengeance...

it is chilling to see how taking the heart out of interactions is vaunted as 'efficient', when it is merely reductive in one dimension -time , productive in one dimension - 'goods', yet so productive also of emotional dysfunction, and reductive in warmth and human courtesy.

i saw a phil donahue show once about women who had their breasts removed preventively, even though there were no signs of cancer, just because others in their families had had breast cancer, and they were so sick with worry. there was a psychologist, shaking his head as he spoke, saying how it was valid, seeing how they felt 'better' afterwards.

when the new head of school arrived, a whole bunch of people did the same with their positive attitudes. they did it themselves so life couldn't do it to them later.

opposite placebo syndrome?

thanks for swinging by, ted.

Peace is not the absence of war -- peace is the absence of fear. Ursula Franklin

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 10:32:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
nocebo effect
A nocebo (Latin for "I will harm") is something that should be ineffective but which causes symptoms of ill health. A nocebo effect is an ill effect caused by the suggestion or belief that something is harmful. The term 'nocebo' became popular in the 1990s. Prior to that, both pleasant and harmful effects thought to be due to the power of suggestion were usually referred to as being due to the placebo effect.

Interesting discussion, unfortunately I just can peak in for short moments. :-)

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 10:40:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
perhaps a definition of mental health would be total immunity to nocebos.

thanks for the input fran, that's a new word for the lexicon.

Peace is not the absence of war -- peace is the absence of fear. Ursula Franklin

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 02:40:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I should chime in.. sicne supposedly I am a guy who is supposed t know the literature..but do nto count on it..

First, let me tell you that what he says about schizophrenia is as good as you are going to get in the media.. the only thing that he does not mention is that the only unviersal neurologic disorder. Allt eh rest (depression, suicide impulses, compulsive disorders are not). No other neurologic dsorder or self-cosntruction is universal.. as it is culture dependent.

Another important point is that the genetic factor is probaby small, this is not to say that the biologichal factor is samll. Ont e contrary it has beens hown that it is very imprtant (the only neurological-psichiatric disorder where biology has a lot to say) A lot of people tend to thinkt hat biology=genes.. not at all, as it is expained in the quotes (although not very well on this point) there is a lot of other stuff.. main among them in the brain, neurons talking to each other... and it is generally thought (although not proven at all) that it is the connectvity in the brain that carries the man biologic factor. So we do not know exactly how it works.. it could be a cascade of process leading to a bad itnerconenction startig frm genes until communication is alfucntioning...but it coudl be taat soem "talking among neurons" component is the most relevant ad does nto work well.. adn then sme gene can make this breadown easy thorugh an specific metabolic pathway.. but who knows.

When I was in weizmann I was following experiements my lab mates did with schizophrenic people...and it is really tough...They explained me in detail the literature aobut biologic and cultural.. in all cultures schizo appears in transition or stress states...(or at least in a great number of cases). why? No ideaa s far as I know.

And finally regardign the universal aspect of religion and belief systems... well  my opinions is that we know too little and therefore the cultural and neurobiologichal camp talk too little among themselves regarding the descrption of a possible common narrative...but I will nto go there because I doubt biology has anything to do witht he creation of beleif systems per se.. brain is a symbolic machine (biologichal if you want to call it that way).. but how to use it I think it is mainly cultural... nce everything is more or less in place.

A pleaure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 06:32:27 AM EST
and take care.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 06:35:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
yeah, i have to.

thanks

Peace is not the absence of war -- peace is the absence of fear. Ursula Franklin

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 10:33:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
okaaaay...i am definitely out of my league here...

my poor brain...come on little guy, jump!


And finally regardign the universal aspect of religion and belief systems... well  my opinions is that we know too little and therefore the cultural and neurobiologichal camp talk too little among themselves regarding the descrption of a possible common narrative...but I will nto go there because I doubt biology has anything to do witht he creation of beleif systems per se.. brain is a symbolic machine (biologichal if you want to call it that way).. but how to use it I think it is mainly cultural... nce everything is more or less in place.

that i understand!

i agree there's too little communication between the camps, perhaps the illusion of speaking the same language is hampering them from realising they're actually not.

languaging this kind of stuff is pretty hard, until we have 'hard' science, we're limited to analogy and metaphor, like mental mapmakers with no parchment. it didn't stop the aborigines!

you doubt biology has anything to with creation of belief systems...mmm, i'll have to think about that. so many comments from you have that effect, lol...

to try to understand you better, i'll turn it around. do metaphysicians believe that the belief system can create the biology?

do we know for sure where 'biology' definitively begins and ends, or are the boundaries fuzzy on that one too? like physics?
<ducks>

is it possible that they are coiled together in ways we don't know how to unwind yet?

glug....

thanks for dropping in, it's good to hear your take.

Peace is not the absence of war -- peace is the absence of fear. Ursula Franklin

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 10:19:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree on this point with you always... there is hardly any serious science on belief systems.. and unfortuantely the stuff which is known is nomrally forgotten once you have your own metaphor.

For example I have my own metaphor.. brain and cultural existence are two sides of the same coin.. they can not exist one without the other. Genes are irrlevant. Biology and culture must talk or die. On the other hand I have no other option than accept that in some aspects any biologichal input seems irrelevant.. and in other it seems that the brain would behave the same way even if isolated from any surrounding.

So I ahve to accept that the belief sytems are so difference that biology seems to have no part in the type of complex symbols/categorizations that the brain porcesses at the early stage.
But together with this, we have that some brain fucntions are so specialized that if the brain does not receive any input, the brain does the same thing or tries or just quits.

But I still have my metaphor.. and we all have a tendency to stick with our own metaphor. So I focus and recall how the visual cortex works or the moto-cortex (the only two areas together with some areas of the hippocampus) say that my metaphor is the best :) Brain-plasticity and culture are generally two sides of the same coin and they co-exist or die. But it is a metaphor...

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 11:28:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I meant to say taht I use what I know about the visual cortex adn moto-cortex to stick to my metaphor because it fits perfectly... and the visual cortex and the moto-cortex are two areas which are rather well-known.

HIppocampus is a little bit trickier but some things are also known about it...but a clear metaphor is not settled.. unless of course you think that all feeling, emotions, non-rational-thoguh is what drive humans and that all emotions and feelings here in Europe are universal... so the hippocampus is our soul.. but of course I think this metaphor is clearly contradicted by any basic sociologichal research.. so I just do not know what to make of the hippo... except that the culturally universal fear response is strongly correlated with its activity.

And if you want fancy/funny brain stuff.. read "phantoms in the brain". You will like it very much.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 11:33:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But it is a metaphor...

some subjects lend themselves better to literature than literality...

children raised by wolves, wolf cubs raised as children, where does human biology start and end, when some chimps are cognitively faster at human designed pattern recognition tests than humans...imagine us doing the same in reverse?

i feel myself agreeing without fully understanding what you say every time... i could be wrong, but i sense a similar wavelength.

sincere religious people will welcome science's advances towards the holy grail of understanding how to objectify the numen.

even if it disappears when you try and lay a finger on it, it's the adventure of curiosity, not the arrival, because as rg quoted, every answer leads to 10 more questions, every peak leads us to see higher.

sincere scientists will welcome any approach that creates changes in perception, even if entirely predictable reality remains a slippery, elusive chimera.

you can choose how much of your perception includes mine, unless i force change.

that would be black magic.

i don't think magic and science are separable, though the threads that connect them have become torn and frayed. some comments you've made here induce me to believe you feel that also to be true...

a corpus callosum issue?

i hope i have not presumed too much, excuse me if i have projected this, or have inadvertently put words in your mouth.

so interesting, thanks again for adding to the discussion.

Peace is not the absence of war -- peace is the absence of fear. Ursula Franklin

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 02:36:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
pleasure indeed to trade myths widja, kc!

Peace is not the absence of war -- peace is the absence of fear. Ursula Franklin
by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 05:17:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What a great article!  I read his book about baboons a year or so ago; he's up front about the kind of guy he is (I didn't imagine him with all that hair!); there's one wily baboon who is often seen in the company of one of the females.  Over time Sapolsky starts suspecting that the wily baboon has fathered a lot more children than would be expected given his refusal to join the alpha wars.  He has a story about seeing this wily baboon and the female holding hands one evening (maybe they were staring at the moon!  I may be misremembering!); then (again, I may be misremembering) one day they disappeared and were never seen again.

There may have been a subtext about them disappearing into the forest for days on end, I cannae remember.

But what an excellent article!  His explanation of the position of schizophrenia makes sense, as does his theory of OCD and religious daily rules.  I think there is a danger in naming something as "the mild or functional end of disease" rather than flipping it around and talking about "various states of being" each of which has an extreme and disfunctional end which we can now (if the psychiatry is correct) identify effectively as a biochemical (biophysical?  heh) disorder amenable--therefore--to helpful interventions (like margouillat's example.)

Ach, it's a great article, I'm thinking: Everyone will have their individuality around the ways the various traits exhibit--and how our consciousness deals with and is constricted by these approaches (our approaches to the world); that I don't think it is important or even healthy to proudly display a pathology; rather, to the extent one is suffering from one's biochemical makeup it is good to have the best help, and that the word "human" is used to describe all of us and our quirks.

Freethought Today, April 2003

What people often get most unnerved about at this point is what this means personally. There's a zillion of these subtle disorders, and none of them existed 30 years ago. None of them had names then, and they all have names now, and we're just going to keep discovering more and more of them. Eventually, every single one of us will have two or three of those labels. [laughter] At some point, that's going to stop being the biology of "them and their diseases," and it's going to be the biology of "what makes us us."

I think it is healthier to start with "what makes us us" and allow people to name what they like, but I am "me" and you are....whoever you present yourself as--but maybe there's a back story--maybe there's an illness there--I dunno, labels give security but limit....but then as he says at the end:

The more important reason why people shouldn't be afraid is, we're never going to inadvertently go and explain everything. We may learn everything about something, and we may learn something about everything, but we're never going to learn everything about everything.

But it seems that individual humans tend to think that they have found this new thing and it is the best explanation and therefore it's true---and they go and build a map of reality as if these latest explanations = the truth, whereas:

When you study science, and especially these realms of the biology of what makes us human, what's clear is that every time you find out something, that brings up ten new questions, and half of those are better questions than you started with.

So rather than seeing humans as problems looking for solutions, we can see them as questions (we ask ourselves) and the more we look into it the more interesting our questions become--

ya know, I was wondering at a certain point how you could tie this into massage.  You are physically affecting a person, changing the various biochemical flows into and out of the brain--and not just the frontal lobes.  Then, a moment ago, I thought: hey, how could that be connected to the chakra points, that the idea of balance, of being out of balance (e.g. washing hands compulsively) can be linked to enumerated points, so you have those basic elements: diet, cleanliness, groups and individual relations (=number patterns, the seven points etc.), rituals to do with entering and leaving delimited envionments (a forest clearing, a hut, a water course)--so you have the rituals of massage, you have--ach...ya know, dealing with dis-eases that occur but we don't want to classify them as pathologies only as directions in need of careful re-direction--like a stiff shoulder on one side....

Hey, great diary!  I'm not making sense, but I wanted to write you a comment and this is the best I can do!

I have a question, if anyone would like to have a go at it: Maybe Luder (Luther) had OCD.  But what about the huge numbers who are inculcated into behaviour, by which I mean that it is culture that inputs to the biochemistry of the brain rather than (say) genes.  If we have various different brain types spread across populations is it that in Luder's day there was a lot of OCD about just waiting for his rules-based approach--ach, I mean how can it be that cultures get moved (e.g. to the right or left) if the variations are constant.  I would have thought first off that the variations would keep the system in a state of some balance....heh....okay, I can't express it well.

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 06:54:27 AM EST
hey rg!

thought you might like this guy.

So rather than seeing humans as problems looking for solutions, we can see them as questions (we ask ourselves) and the more we look into it the more interesting our questions become--

yeah, that's how i feel about it too, the whole concept of 'normal' needs to be tossed in favour of something more plural, less convention-bound. infinite variety, snowflakes, people, iguanas...

ya know, I was wondering at a certain point how you could tie this into massage.  You are physically affecting a person, changing the various biochemical flows into and out of the brain--and not just the frontal lobes.

well, it's funny during massage, sometimes i can be experiencing i believe to be subjective, then afterwards, talking about it with the client, i find that there was uncanny paralleling going on, many more times than coinkydink could explain.

quite scientifically unprovable probably, but so what? no claims, no rebuttals!.

rituals...what used to be conscious becomes habitual, and soothing because of that very fact.

brushing your teeth can be a ritual, going to buy milk, anything you do regularly..

ritual |ˈri ch oōəl|

a religious or solemn ceremony consisting of a series of actions performed according to a prescribed order : the ancient rituals of Christian worship | the role of ritual in religion.

* a prescribed order of performing such a ceremony, esp. one characteristic of a particular religion or church.

* a series of actions or type of behavior regularly and invariably followed by someone : her visits to Joy became a ritual.

there is a state of consciousness peculiar to religious ritual, a mixture of surrender and gentle concentration, i feel that way washing my hands and face before treating someone, or for that matter tuning a guitar can have cosmic overtones...

ritual can also be used to preclude thinking, in a good way, to quell the restless chatter of the monkeymind, or in a bad way, to psych someone up to kill for instance.

staff of life, or psychic crutch...

dealing with dis-eases that occur but we don't want to classify them as pathologies only as directions in need of careful re-direction--like a stiff shoulder on one side....

bingo, symmetry and balance are so important, even as we learn not to fight imbalance with another opposing imbalance, but rather allow the imbalances to play out as much as possible, then when the 'still point' is reached, you can guide or facilitate a centering, imprecise of course, because i'm never perfectly centred either, carrying around my own asymmetrical compensations, and per forza they influence my perception....then occasionally my imbalance will complement the client's and there's a soft, powerful rush of connection.

it takes a lot of quiet patience and experience to recognise when to do, when to undo, and when to not-do, just hold the space.

the last is the wu-wei way, and often (mostly) is the most direct path, but it's the most subtle, needs the most ego-lessness, and while the most simple, is not the easiest.

the other points you made are too much for me to grok right now, but i'm sure they're busy fermenting in my subconscious 'think-tank, lol.

cheers rg, i love how your mind works/plays!

homo ludens, for sure.

Peace is not the absence of war -- peace is the absence of fear. Ursula Franklin

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 12:53:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Good diary!

IMO all learned behaviour is ritualistic - 'a way of doing things'. We all tend to do things in the same way, once learned. Where ritual becomes belief, is where meaning is attached to the ritual. The meaning is, of course, learned also, but may be separate in origin from the origin of the ritual.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 01:54:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

IMO all learned behaviour is ritualistic - 'a way of doing things'. We all tend to do things in the same way, once learned.

Er, no. Reading is "learned behaviour", it can be done in a ritualistic way, e.g. in a religious ceremony, but generally it isn't and once picked up is done in a wide range of ways, in bed, standing in the metro, out loud to a child, etc. In many English families, tea-making is learned behaviour, but can then vary: using tea-bags, while listening to radio, having an argument, etc. However in Japan there are ritualistic ways of making tea, where full attention and set moves are required.

Some people do things in the same way once learned, but  many don't, depending on whether any changes might be risky, difficult to achieve, etc. It's not a good idea to improvise too much when defusing a bomb, while varying subjects and technique in film-making is a lot easier and generally encouraged. Many people get bored quickly and like some variation - a few to such an extent that they radically change the activity.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 02:34:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I guess you read right to left then, like the Japanese? Of course learned behaviours are adaptable to contexts. Alcohol drinking is a learned behaviour and we learn to do it in a very wide variety of contexts. All of those contexts can then trigger the behaviour. And that it is why such a learned behaviour disorder such as alcoholism is so difficult to treat - there are too many stimulii to suppress.

Reading in all kinds of places does not disqualify the act of reading from being ritualistic.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 03:00:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sven Triloqvist:
I guess you read right to left then, like the Japanese?

The fact that some basic features of an activity remain doesn't of course, mean that the whole process is done in the same way, i.e. ritualistically.

 Of course learned behaviours are adaptable to contexts.

Right, so they are not always done in the same way - as claimed.

Reading in all kinds of places does not disqualify the act of reading from being ritualistic.

What makes all of these different ways of reading - out loud to a child, isn't a matter of place - "ritualistic", as opposed to a clear example of ritualistic reading, as in a religious ceremony ?

If you use a word too generally it tends to lose its value in picking out something specific. See also the tea example for another clear contrast.  

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 03:24:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Using a word in a wider sense than is usual, is intended to make non-ritualistic connections.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 03:53:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Ah, how very creative :-) Problem is it doesn't illuminate anything, it merely blurs useful distinctions - as in the examples. We learn many kinds of things, SOME of them are rituals, most are not, nor are they done ritualistically. When they are, we are struck by the distinctive character of rituals, which were MEANT to mark off some things as special and of greater importance than the many things we do as a result of ordinary learning, which leave open the possibility of variation and innovation.  

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 04:21:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This assumes people are consciously aware when they're being ritualistic.

Ritual is too strong a word in some contexts, and not nearly strong enough in others.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 05:57:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
ThatBritGuy:
This assumes people are consciously aware when they're being ritualistic.

No it doesn't, it does suggest that people are aware when others are acting in a ritualistic way.


 Ritual is too strong a word in some contexts, and not nearly strong enough in others.

Is this supposed to be an argument ? Of course words can be misapplied - so ?

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Sat Mar 8th, 2008 at 07:09:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Perhaps I've been fortunate to realize that having tea in Japan is neither ceremonial nor ritualistic. Words that come to mind? Pleasure, delight, empathy, humour, simplicity, thankfulness.
by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 04:33:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'm sure not all tea drinking in Japan is ceremonial, and that ritual doesn't necessarily entirely preclude the things you describe. On the other hand:

The Japanese tea ceremony (chanoyu 茶の湯, lit. "tea hot-water"; also called chadō or sadō, 茶道, "the way of tea") is a traditional ritual based on Taoism (Daoism) and influenced by Zen Buddhism in which powdered green tea, or matcha (抹茶), is ceremonially prepared by a skilled practitioner and served to a small group of guests in a tranquil setting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_tea_ceremony



Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 04:59:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I have never had the opportunity to participate in a ceremony that revolved around tea. My experience has always been in the context of hospitality, as a guest or one of the guests. "Skilled practitioner" in a way alludes to the host or whoever served tea, "skilled" in the simplicity and eloquence of every movement. There's small talk and laughter which appears to contrast with any possible ritualistic intention. Some guests might try to figure out from what hill the matcha comes or chat about the cups.

One thing that struck me while in Japan was when it dawned on me that, as a guest, I would be invited to sit in what was considered the most beautiful setting within the household, a sort of frame that apparently in the eyes of the hosts added an aesthetic quality to my presence and at the same time was a sign of consideration towards me. This strong aesthetic sense seems to permeate Japanese attitudes to everything. By our standards an extraordinary attention to things that completely pass us by.

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 06:36:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
hey sven!

yeah, all learned behaviour is ritualistic in some way.
ever read ouspensky and/or gurdjieff?

their thesis was humans prefer sleep walking through life, if we could succeed in reducing ourselves to purely programmed activity it would bring a kind of dumbed down contentment, a half-life, if you will.

one man's zombie...

rocked in an eternal womb of spiritual homeostasis...

that's why there are very few awakened beings, it hurts too much, there is no trauma so powerful as birth.

i think we all hold a little piece of the human jigsaw puzzle, the more we put the pieces together, the better the picture emerges...of a connected whole.

same story you tell so often and well here at ET!

Peace is not the absence of war -- peace is the absence of fear. Ursula Franklin

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 05:15:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ouspensky and Gurdjieff were art school reading for me. The Wake Up idea is powerful. That whole area of heretical thought (that includes Crowley) challenged a lot of my own thinking at the time, but more in the sense of warming to heresy in general and being empowered to question conventional teaching and wisdom. Questioning does not necessarily mean rejecting. ;-)

My comment on ritualized behaviours was based on the physiology of learning: stimulus > response > biochemical action (traditionally called reward)> reinforcement. Certain sets of (learned) stimulii produce an action, and that action can in some cases release, or be accompanied by, biochemical releases in the neuronal environment that hardwire more future connections between the neighbouring neurons that were firing at the time, following the stimulus set. Thus drinking alcohol releases endorphins which slowly hardwire the behaviour. BASE jumping releases noradrenaline which can also hardwire behaviour.

Not all Learned Behaviours become a Learned Behaviour Disorder (such as alcoholism). But all Learned Behaviours are ritualistic in the sense that they are hardwired. ie given a certain set of stimulii, the response will be predictably structured - even if a variety of responses seems available. The exact response, out of an apparent variety of responses will depend on the exact set of stimulii.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Sat Mar 8th, 2008 at 08:21:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
yeah the wake up idea is powerful.

i heard gurdjieff's dance pieces were really something.

his most neurotic disciple he had on their knees working in the dirt till they 'woke up'.

i bet you read colin wilson too...

i have a hunch all addictive behaviour is an attempt to freeze change, or at least slow it down.

raw life is so tumultuously unsettling, addictions offer a comfort zone of pattern to grid over the chaos.

addiction and ritual have much common resonance, in fact a definition of addiction might well be destructive ritual.

socieities with extremes of formality. such as ancient china, contemporary and ancient japan, monarchic and westminster england, ritualise most rigorously, here in italy things are pretty loose in that sense, except in certain quarters, involving plumed headgear and plenty of -issimo's.

i hear you about questioning and rejecting ;)

Peace is not the absence of war -- peace is the absence of fear. Ursula Franklin

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sat Mar 8th, 2008 at 04:17:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Colin Wilson, yes. But 'Morning of the Magicians' and, later, 'Total Man' by Stan Gooch were impressing for an impressionable lad ;-). Especially the latter. Gooch is still just alive and iving in a caravan somewhere in penury. Sadly.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Sat Mar 8th, 2008 at 04:34:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Had Colin Wilson turn up at my place of employment to give a talk a couple of years ago.  Unfortunately server failure kept me occupied that evening.

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Sat Mar 8th, 2008 at 05:33:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
He's another me duck BTW. Leicester-born.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Sat Mar 8th, 2008 at 06:39:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's like a rash

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Sat Mar 8th, 2008 at 06:47:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Scratch that....

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Sat Mar 8th, 2008 at 06:49:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I cant quite put my finger on it.

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Sat Mar 8th, 2008 at 06:58:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Louis Pauwels was more on the right side of the right... While Bergier was fascinating but weird ! I met the two for some times when I was a teen !

I had a good mark in philosophy class by just bringing Jacques Bergier to speak and do the expose I was supposed to do (already a bit lazy :-) )!
I wanted to know more about Gurdjieff and the "truth seekers" but Pauwels didn't want to go further on that territory, even though it was a late, private and beveraged meeting :-)

I still am impressed by Bergier... That man had an incredible memory, really, some sort of freakish thing ! When I knew him he was still sleeping each night in a different place, leaving to the teen I was a sort of aura of mystery.
I was happy later when Hergé draw him in "Flight 714 for Sydney", as Bergier himself was a great admirer of SF and Pulp fiction... :-)
Those were the "Planète" review's era... With artist like Topor, Trémois...
Seems so far away, like another life...!

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman

by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Sat Mar 8th, 2008 at 09:05:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Fascinating that you met Pauwels and Bergier. Morning of the Magicians is not really a thesis as such, more a Fortean collection of midbending tidbits. I was given Papus 'Tarot of the Bohemians' at about the same time, and if I recall correctly, the shockumentary 'Mondo Cane' was in the cinemas. All powerful stuff for a 6th form boy ;-) Especially with the Beatles exploding.

My teenage interest in French cinema (which eventually lead to my career) slightly predates reading 'Morning of the Magicians', but they all are part of the testosterone trip.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Sun Mar 9th, 2008 at 04:16:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If you cite Papus and the Tarots, I'll have to reply with Jodorowsky's ones :-) Which might be some sort of reply to the "art is cultural only" post a bit up there !
I might have preferred his version of Dune !

A Fortean collection is a good definition as it attracted people from a very wide array of beliefs... Everybody still wonders how the two authors managed to stick together for some time!

Mondo Cane, helped to bring in the Castenada's Yaqui trend, but at that time I was more immersed with Bunuel and Saura's "Cria Cuervos" (Porque te vas) and juggling with "bious" (camargue toro) for the sake of a half-gypsy girl friend :-)
I still have the boots !

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman

by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Sun Mar 9th, 2008 at 05:50:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Certain amount of synchronicity in our lives ;-)

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Sun Mar 9th, 2008 at 06:22:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sven Triloqvist:
But all Learned Behaviours are ritualistic in the sense that they are hardwired. ie given a certain set of stimulii, the response will be predictably structured - even if a variety of responses seems available. The exact response, out of an apparent variety of responses will depend on the exact set of stimulii.

Come on Sven, I've done enough to show that the first sentence is over-generalised nonsense - it's Skinnerism - check out Chomsky's now ancient refutation. The second gives you an opt-out from the first - progress I suppose.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Sat Mar 8th, 2008 at 07:14:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Don't waste your Learned Behaviour Disorder on me - try explaining to the hundreds of alcoholics who have reached recovery through a treatment precisely based on these theories.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Sun Mar 9th, 2008 at 06:25:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Not finished reading this, but why is this

white-collar job, living in the suburbs, utterly colorless, stable life

not due to a "disease" which makes him act this way?  

Why do we only pathologize behavoir that doesn't conform to imposed social constructs that are not nec. healthy but benefit those in power... ?

 

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."

by poemless on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 10:53:02 AM EST
right, poemless, you nailed it...

the psychiatrists who tried to treat me were not intere