Friday Photography Blog #25.

by LEP
Sun Mar 9th, 2008 at 07:42:51 AM EST

 
Welcome to the 25th Friday Photograhy Blog.

You say you don't know the difference between an f stop and a bus stop, between film speed and shutter speed, between bokah and hallivah.
Well, you've come to the right place. Today, in addition to our regular Photos as Usual we have Photography Clinic-Ask the Experts. You can put your Missed Photos in that section..

Yes, we have a slew of experts including our information leader, Colman, my multi-talented co-host of the photo blog, In Wales, our resident flmmaker, Sven, and many other experts who, Im sure will drift in and out during the day to answer your photography questions. (without being all inclusve I'm thinking of Margouillat, tzt, gringo, and That Brit Guy.) In other words, we've got a bunch of dudes here who know how to take a picture.

Me, I've got lots of questions. I was given a Nikon D-80 fourteen months ago for my 70th birthday after having shot "point and shoot" for about six months. What a shock. I'm still learning the very basics. So I'm going to learn a lot today.

So let's get started. By the way, the photo at the top is of my daughter, estHer, preparing to assist Sven on a photo shoot.

Bumped up for the weekend - In Wales


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Specially dedicated to LEP! The skies of Brittany

by The3rdColumn on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 10:13:42 AM EST
Skies of Brittany

by The3rdColumn on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 10:17:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
These are beautiful photos TTC. What kind of camera do you have?

I told Bush; don't play chess with the freakin' Russians.
by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 10:40:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
LEP, I just used a small and old, 6-year old, heavy Olympus digital camera and clicked away.
by The3rdColumn on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 10:49:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This one too for LEP, early morning "godille" (rowing with one hand)...



"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman

by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 10:20:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Beautiful!
by The3rdColumn on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 10:24:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Where is it? In Brittany?
by The3rdColumn on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 10:50:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
ST Marine, next to Benodet at about 16 km of Quimper ! Famed for it's "galettes au blé noir" (but the crêperie is now closed !).

There are several nice houses on the Odet river (Penn Odet = Benodet, the head of the Odet ), not very far and on the same side there is Tabarly's house !

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman

by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 05:36:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Been to Benodet, love the place and all of the West coast of Brittany; Eric Tabarly, my favourite sailor!
by The3rdColumn on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 06:03:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hi Margouillat, Is this property yours?
by The3rdColumn on Sun Mar 9th, 2008 at 11:30:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Alas no... :-)
This was shot with a 180/2.8 AIS from the small (green) entrance of the Odet river Lighthouse !
It's one of the very few who hasn't changed since the "before the bridge" era :-)

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman
by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Sun Mar 9th, 2008 at 12:59:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
wow, those are epic

reminds me of an 19thC oil old master...

the top and bottom one....just great!

Lobbyists are people too...

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 06:11:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hip, hip hooray for 25th Photo - blog (and many more to come, we hope!!)

Half the population is under the age of 18. Tanzania's future is NOW...join the 50% campaign!
by whataboutbob on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 10:25:58 AM EST
by The3rdColumn on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 10:45:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
""

No bouquet to give

"I said, 'Wait a minute, Chester, You know I'm a peaceful man...'" Robbie Robertson

by NearlyNormal on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 04:35:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh my! Lovely, just lovely!
by The3rdColumn on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 06:05:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Some interesting effects here. The top rows of windows look like they've been Photoshopped, but in fact it's reflected ambient lighting from the bright sky - one of those times when an optical grad could have been useful.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 03:00:35 PM EST
 Even in the dead of winter we can't forget that we live in corn country. I can see this lone survivor out my bedroom window.

by SacredCowTipper (sct@strandedwind.org) on Sat Mar 8th, 2008 at 12:26:26 AM EST
Wow, how deep is the snow?

Ad astra per aspera
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Sat Mar 8th, 2008 at 03:17:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Taken with a Lumix FZ-30

A 'centrist' is someone who's neither on the left, nor on the left.
by nicta (nico@altiva․fr) on Sun Mar 9th, 2008 at 08:32:37 AM EST

That's Grenoble below the thick layer of shit.

A 'centrist' is someone who's neither on the left, nor on the left.
by nicta (nico@altiva․fr) on Sun Mar 9th, 2008 at 08:35:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]



A 'centrist' is someone who's neither on the left, nor on the left.
by nicta (nico@altiva․fr) on Sun Mar 9th, 2008 at 08:46:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't recall seeing you post to the photo blog before, nicta, but, in any event, I hope to see more of you in the future.

I told Bush; don't play chess with the freakin' Russians.
by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Sun Mar 9th, 2008 at 09:43:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Macro on a clear spring day.




A 'centrist' is someone who's neither on the left, nor on the left.
by nicta (nico@altiva․fr) on Sun Mar 9th, 2008 at 11:23:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
LIke the first and third. The out-of-focus stuff on the second makes my left eye twitch.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Sun Mar 9th, 2008 at 11:25:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's meant to be viewed turned 90°

A 'centrist' is someone who's neither on the left, nor on the left.
by nicta (nico@altiva․fr) on Sun Mar 9th, 2008 at 11:28:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I was thinking. It's an interesting example of the effect that out-of-focus areas in unexpected places can have though.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Sun Mar 9th, 2008 at 11:30:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
10 images, taken with manual exposure and no tripod, cylindrical projection. The dark zone in the middle, altough distracting, is not an artifact, it's the opposite of the sun.

Grenoble is on the left, under the thick layer of dirty clouds. Google Maps. Google Earth.

A 'centrist' is someone who's neither on the left, nor on the left.
by nicta (nico@altiva․fr) on Sun Mar 9th, 2008 at 11:47:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's impressive. Did you have software to stitch that or line it up yourself?

Ad astra per aspera
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Sun Mar 9th, 2008 at 11:58:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Powerful but you really need to take the time to read the doc.

http://hugin.sourceforge.net/

A 'centrist' is someone who's neither on the left, nor on the left.

by nicta (nico@altiva․fr) on Sun Mar 9th, 2008 at 12:17:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]


Lobbyists are people too...
by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sun Mar 9th, 2008 at 09:05:51 PM EST
Why indeed... ? :-)
Not knowing the camera + lens model internals, I really can't imagine why such a square reflection (I would have thought it would have been circular) ?

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman
by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Mon Mar 10th, 2008 at 05:12:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Reflecting from inside the lightbox - or whatever that is called - back into the lens? That would account for the square shape. It's very strange though.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Mar 10th, 2008 at 05:31:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Diffraction?

Ad astra per aspera
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Mon Mar 10th, 2008 at 04:39:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
vertical

horizontal

which works better, iyo?

Lobbyists are people too...

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sun Mar 9th, 2008 at 09:15:36 PM EST
I think in both it would be nice to have a little more of the landscape, in which case I like the vertical one more.  

Ad astra per aspera
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Mon Mar 10th, 2008 at 03:30:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]


Lobbyists are people too...
by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sun Mar 9th, 2008 at 09:21:44 PM EST


Lobbyists are people too...
by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sun Mar 9th, 2008 at 09:27:01 PM EST
ask the expert

I told Bush; don't play chess with the freakin' Russians.
by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 03:46:23 AM EST
We have experts?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 03:53:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Allegedly.  I'm looking forward to meeting them.

Ad astra per aspera
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 03:57:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Can someone change the comment head to "ask the experts and missed photos." I've already changed the body.

I told Bush; don't play chess with the freakin' Russians.
by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 04:37:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You can't edit a comment, and we can't delete it either since it has already been replied to.

I suggest posting "missed photos" as a third top-level comment (and editing the body accordingly).

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 04:40:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks Miguel. I've changed the body so I'll just let it be. Some seem to be posting their missed photos already under ask the experts.

I told Bush; don't play chess with the freakin' Russians.
by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 05:20:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm sorry!!! I didn't realise you still had another category to put up.

Ad astra per aspera
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 05:55:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I didn't. I forgot that Colman wanted to do "missed photos." So we'll just put them under ask the experts.

I told Bush; don't play chess with the freakin' Russians.
by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 06:18:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I took this photo at a flower show last summer.  I wanted to have one of the flowers in focus and the rest blurred but in the process of getting the focus right I didn't really frame it properly. I think it would be a better shot if you could see the whole shape of the flowers that drop off into the background.
It would also be better if I knew how to make the colours stronger and bolder without making them looking completely manipulated. (Better resolution pics if you click on the photo)

Photobucket

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 04:03:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Try:

  1. Convert to Lab colour, and add 10-20% saturation. Lab colour saturation is more subtle and natural-looking than RGB saturation, and less sensitive to noise.

  2. Duplicate and add an overlay blend layer at between 25-50% opacity. This brightens up the colours in anything and adds some contrast.

For the composition, a 180 rotate looks interesting.
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 02:15:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
 And don't forget to convert it to sRGB if you want it on the web :-)

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman
by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 05:38:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'll have a go at that, thanks.  My photoshop skills are fairly poor so I'm building up my list of things to get better at.

Ad astra per aspera
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Sat Mar 8th, 2008 at 03:18:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Convert to Lab colour

Any idea where that would be in Gimp ?

by balbuz on Sat Mar 8th, 2008 at 01:39:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's a consequence of its main flaw, which is that it's stuck for now in the 1990's and can only work on 8 bit RGB. They are working on a major change to the engine to address this, but IMHO it doesn't look like it's going to happen anytime soon. They have set the bar way too high.
You can however use the color menu anyway. You might just lose some dynamic if you edit things a lot, but that should be ok.
Or you can use Krita, KDE's answer to Gimp, which is nowhere near comparable in terms of reliability, UI and tools, but does handle Lab buffers, as well as 16 bit fixed or 32 bit floating point per component RGB.

A 'centrist' is someone who's neither on the left, nor on the left.
by nicta (nico@altiva․fr) on Sun Mar 9th, 2008 at 08:54:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
My first question question is very basic. About a year ago I bought an inexpensive ($200)used Nikon lens for my D-80; a 28-105, f3.5 to use as my walking around lens. I've never been totally satisfied with the sharpness of my photos that I've taken with it. Nature pictures always seemed better than photos taken in the city. I've always tended to shoot on A and open the lens to the max. Recently I read that photos are sharper when you step down so I've tried to shoot at f7.1 or f8. My results seem better but I haven't done enough yet to be sure. Is what I'm doing theoretically correct?

I told Bush; don't play chess with the freakin' Russians.
by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 04:05:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The 28-105 is a good all purpose lens and is recognized as sharp enough.

With a digital camera like the D80, the ratio of the CCD is about 1.5 compared to 24x36 (or 135 format). That means that when set at 50mm focal (for example), the 135 equivalent (or apparent) focal length would be 75mm.

The old trick of trade, stating that you have to set your speed at least at the focal length value (1/50th or 1/60th for a 50mm lens) seems to apply with the so-called crop factor (1.5). That's for camera motion blur vs the subject motion blur !

At the tele end of your zoom (105mm) you should be at a speed of 1/200th (1/157th)if hand holding or use a tripod for slower speeds.

I'm sure that, looking at the exifs, you'll find you have a higher rate of sharp pictures at the wide end then at the tele one... :-)

Then you have the aperture (or f stop). Setting it wide open (small number) allows for more light or a lower speed value in a given light... But it reduces you depth of field (or DoF), meaning that the plane of sharpness is quite shallow ! Add that problem to an auto-focus or manual focus a bit too near or too far and you get a seemingly not so sharp picture !

Of course, all that is above is for a given ISO value (the good old film ISO/ASA number). But with the D80 you can add ISO as another variable by changing it or allowing it to change automatically with auto-ISO.

You can try a "false" manual setting... You get in auto-iso mode, in manual mode, you set a speed value, fixed high enough for your lens crop factor. You then forget about it and use your camera as in mode A (aperture priority), setting the f stop in relationship to DoF.... Then take the pictures !
Auto-Iso will adjust ISO value accordingly, setting it higher if the scene is darker or lower if the scene is lighter...
It has some limitations though. The higher you go with ISO, the more you are prone to "noise" (or digital grain), and you can't go much lower then 100 ISO (if it hits the floor, you'll have to act on speed or f stop)!

Does this helps ? :-)

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman

by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 04:39:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks for this comment margouillat. I'm sure that I will understand it after reading it 4 or 5 times.

I told Bush; don't play chess with the freakin' Russians.
by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 05:28:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
  • Small aperture = bigger depth of field = more of the picture in focus.

  • Long lens = smaller depth of field.

  • Wide lens = bigger depth of field.

  • Effective focal length on D80 = marked focal length * 1.5

  • For hand holding, you need a shutter speed of 1/(effective focal length)

So, 50mm lens, you need 1/75s shutter. 105mm lens you need 1/150s.

  • Close in shake has a bigger effect. Faster shutter for close-ups.

  • Use ISO settings to allow you get your shutter speed up higher.

  • Exifs are the information about the photograph that's embedded in the file. Depending what you use to process your photos you should be able to see shutter speed, focal length and stuff like that.

With practice you can get away with more - I can get a good hit rate holding a stop or two slower than I should be able to , and margouillet's picture below at 1/30 shouldn't be sharp in theory.

Ask for explanations of the other jargonese in there!

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 05:37:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Someone trying to learn who's willing to ask "stupid" questions to extract information from people would be highly useful here!
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 05:58:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, I'm not entirely up to scratch with understanding focal length.

Ad astra per aspera
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 06:06:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That wasn't a question!
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 06:20:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Alright then. What's focal length all about, Colman?

Ad astra per aspera
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 06:23:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's the distance from the "optical centre" of a lens to the film. You can think of it as the distance from a pinhole to the film. To understand the effect, put a small (say 1cm) hole in a sheet of paper and look through it.

Really: I'll wait.

The closer you hold the hole, the more you can see of the scene, the further away, the less you see. So, short focal length means a wider angle view, long focal length means narrow angle view.

To illustrate the effect, I'll demonstrate why I do photography rather than drawing: on the left we have a pinhole very near the sensor, so the tree(!) only occupies a small part of  the frame, on the right the pinhole is much further away, so the tree occupies lots of the frame.

So far so good?

Now, where this gets interesting is when you change the size of the sensor the light is falling on:

Three sensors indicated there, for a 60mm focal length: 35mm, the DX sensor in the Nikon digitals and most other digital SLRs and 6x6 film. Digital compacts have much smaller lenses.

If you trace the light you can see that the "house" (or "robot")  is covering most of the 6x6 frame, that only a small part of it is visible to the 35mm sensor and even less to the DX sensor. A compact camera thinks that a 60mm lenses is a long telephoto while a 6x6 sensor sees it as a normal lens and a 4" x 5" would see it as an extreme wide-angle. Thus the 60mm lens on a 35mm is equivalent in angle  of view to a 90mm on the DX sensor.

DId that help?

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 07:11:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In understanding why you choose photography... Yes! LOL

More seriously, great effort, you must have a scan nearby !
Next step: perspective (or the face you don't recognize with that big nose in the middle :-) )... Or why it is independent of the focal length but in direct relationship with the distance between the subject and the film plane (or captor, or CCD)...

The fact, as shown in Colman's drawings, that different focal lengths (i.e. the usual lens naming) gives you different viewing angles is often confused with the "perspective" effect (the too big nose).
Most people think that with a wide angle you have a "bad" portrait, while with a mid-tele that's not a problem...

As in the drawings above, we tend to "fill" the frame for a portrait (just an example), so with a tele we are at some distance of the subject, while with a "wide-angle" we would be much nearer, thus accentuating the perspective effect.

It works with buildings too, when people want to get the whole church "in the frame" they often favor a great wide-angle lens increasing the weird feeling that parallels spires are meeting in some not too far points !

When you don't have the backing space for a "frame filling" shot (often the case in old cities) it is often easier (i didn't say better) to find a distant viewpoint (the hill outside the village ) and to use a big tele lens...

Or to use your ordinary lens (35m or 50mm) and frame part of the church in a way that conveys the feeling you had when seeing it (the church). :-)


"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman

by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 07:50:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
margouillat:
Or to use your ordinary lens (35m or 50mm) and frame part of the church in a way that conveys the feeling you had when seeing it (the church). :-)

As in gioele 's Prague picture below :-)

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman

by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 07:53:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Scanners are on the desk beside me and Vuescan makes using them convenient ...

Isn't that two separate issues? The face distortion is due to the way it's spread over the frame (compared to how we expect to see it - you can get the same effect by eye if you pay attention to what you're actually seeing), while the meeting spires is more to do with the sensor plane not being vertical - you point it up at the church and that causes distortion.

That's why view cameras can correct for it: you can set the back parallel to the subject and use the front movement to get the framing you want:

x

From Ansel Adam's The Camera.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 08:04:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You are right about the different problem of non vertical sensor plane :-) (though it's also perspective, but not the one I wanted to mention, two vanishing points are quite enough just now)!

The face distortion is about distance and as you say you can see it if you get near the subject's nostrils :-)

But for a given distance, a tele shot and a wide angle shot will generate the same perspective deformation if you superpose the two pictures (blowing one up or shrinking the other)...

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman

by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 08:23:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
ah, Scheimpflug. Was busy with that a few weeks ago when I had to photograph a muesli box with 4 different perspectives.

I just came back from a sudden trip from Finland; have I missed much?

You have a normal feeling for a moment, then it passes. --More--

by tzt (tztmail at gmail dot com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 01:56:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
perspective (or the face you don't recognize with that big nose in the middle :-)

The folks I know who do portraits on a regular basis swear that 100mm to 135mm (35 mm cameras) lenses are the best for such work--just to avoid the problem you mention.  

These lenses also mean that you can get detailed shots without getting too close to the subject.

"Remember the I35W bridge--who needs terrorists when there are Republicans"

by techno (reply@elegant-technology.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 11:03:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's the conventional wisdom, certainly.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 11:04:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's the CW because it works.  My dad had a 100mm just for portraits.  Man! was that a sweet lens.

"Remember the I35W bridge--who needs terrorists when there are Republicans"
by techno (reply@elegant-technology.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 12:56:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It depends what you mean by "portrait": if you mean it in the sense of a head-and-shoulders (more or less) picture of a person then yes, a focal length of 75mm to 135mm in 35mm equivalent is considered the most flattering - though some fashion (and "glamour"??) photographers will use much longer lenses than that. I like the shorter end of that - 85mm, which is keeping with more modern convention, I believe. Though I have a nice little 100mm 2,8 which works well too.

For portraits - in the sense of a depiction of a person - that include the environment you can use much wider lenses without making the person look too scary. It's all a matter of how much of the frame they're filling.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Sat Mar 8th, 2008 at 04:38:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I go out to a meeting and come back to a doubled number of comments!  You hit on a winner.

This is helpful, thanks.  I will have to read over everything again when I am not supposed to be working!

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 10:57:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I've been working on this topic since I got the f/1.8 50mm this past week (I didn't think to post any photos though, I have a portrait shot probably worth submitting).

One thing I found in an article - and verified myself experimentally - is that this particular lens reaches a max sharpness at f/2.5. Below that it is noticeably less sharp. The spendier f/1.4 50mm is at max sharpness throughout the aperture range.

I'm really appreciating the VR on my zoom lens after working with the new one. It's really tough to get decent low light shots even at f/1.8 that don't exhibit a fair bit of camera shake.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 01:57:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You still can't hand old it below 1/40. Mind you, I've never noticed any softness in either of my 50mm 1.8 lenses* - don't get too caught up on lens tests!

(We have both the AF-D one and a much older manual version.)

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Sun Mar 9th, 2008 at 11:29:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Having less of the picture in focus is actually an advantage. Look at my picture of a bottle on a mountain background below; it's out of focus on purpose. You can't do that with a point and shoot, and my FZ-30 can barely do it.
Artistically, it serves the purpose of focussing the attention on something, and emphasizing depth, frontground vs background, object vs context, etc.
To obtain this effect you need maximum iris operture. In this picture I had to put on a grey filter and 1/1200 exposure, as well as sitting quite close to the bottle while zooming up a bit.
The opposite of this is a camera obscura, ie a pinhole camera, whereby light goes through a tiny puncture, instead of an actual lens system. Everything that gets (somewhat slowly) captured on the sensor is basically in focus. That's about what you get with a point-and-shoot in good lighting condition; just about everything should be focused.
Typically, the more expensive a camera, the larger the sensor and operture, and therefore the more you get this effect.

A 'centrist' is someone who's neither on the left, nor on the left.
by nicta (nico@altiva․fr) on Sun Mar 9th, 2008 at 09:04:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Having less of the picture in focus is actually an advantage. Look at my picture of a bottle on a mountain background below; it's out of focus on purpose.

It can be an advantage, depending on what you're trying to achieve - if you don't want the background it's a good thing. Otherwise it's a bad thing.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Sun Mar 9th, 2008 at 10:43:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes but high end cameras can do both (just close the iris down) while cheap cameras can only do one.

A 'centrist' is someone who's neither on the left, nor on the left.
by nicta (nico@altiva․fr) on Sun Mar 9th, 2008 at 10:59:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Only if the lens in long enough though - good luck getting any noticeable circle-of-confusion out of a 20mm lens on 35m. It's not just about aperture and focal length either: sensor size makes a big difference as well. My GR-D, which has quite a small sensor and a 28mm wide angle lens, has massive depth-of-field even at f2.8. With the 21mm adaptor you hardly need to focus it, except for macros, while with the 40mm you can get a bit of isolation if the background is far enough away from a reasonably close subject.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Sun Mar 9th, 2008 at 11:11:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
LOL...!

Great reply... And quite to the point :-) (Maybe that's why I don't teach photography)!!!

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman

by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 05:35:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I' awfully dumb about these things. I understand some of what you say and will get back to you later. I have to leave for an hour.

I told Bush; don't play chess with the freakin' Russians.
by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 06:21:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
We'll set assignments!
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 06:22:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So margouillat. I go to menu and set my ISO value to automatic. Right away I have a problem. It only allows me to do so when the camera is in point and shoot mode.

I told Bush; don't play chess with the freakin' Russians.
by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 10:15:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Uh...??? I'll have a look at the manual...!

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman
by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 05:41:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I knew it was there.... :-)
Page 88 #7... Or to make it short without having to search for the manual, it's in the personal settings menu (pencil icon), you set it there for A, S, P, and M program settings !

I usually have it set all the time, except in twilights where it will light more a scene then I want it, making a full day shot of an almost night scene.

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman

by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 06:34:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It could be due the fact that by changing the aperture you are altering the depth of field.  With a wide open aperture, there is smaller depth of field therefore depending on the distance you are away from your subject, less is in focus. Soemtimes you want that effect and sometimes not.

I have that issue with my 50mm since I tend to use it for low light shots and have the aperture on f/1.4.

I find that with the 50mm, even though it feels in camera that I have focussed on some specific part of the frame, the shot turns out with it focussing on the wall behind or slightly to the side of the person or subject of the shot. Most annoying.  

Here's a good tip on aperture and DOF

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 04:21:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You must be aware that those "brackets" for AF in the viewfinder aren't always exactly covering the AF detectors... Mines are often a bit lower and on the left then the bracket (lengthy tests results). So I usually use the lower left corner of the bracket as the center part for AF !!!

Then there is the fact that those detectors (captors maybe?) are about contrast values and that they are big enough in size to choose in the bracket area the "best" contrast, meaning the easiest, to focus on.

If you center the bracket on a limit between a fuzzy or dark material and a grouted well lit wall, it'll choose the wall !

Now if you combine the facts that the AF captors aren't exactly where you think they are, added to the "easy" contrast values, you'll find yourself with "accidently" focusing on parts of the scene you didn't choose yourself !
Some will claim they have front or back focusing problems (it happens and is repaired easily) when in most cases it's because of those AF captor sizes and targets...

While in manual focusing,  you have the matted screen, but also the little green focusing light (lower left in the viewfinder).
My own observation, backed by quite a number of other photographers is that this light has several states: not lighted (not in focus), lighted in full (in focus)... And flickering before "full" or after !

I have the sharpest focus when having the flickering green light before full light when focusing from close range toward infinity.
While I use old MF lenses with a longer focusing throw (meaning I can be very precise between flickering or not), it seems it works also with AF lenses with a shorter throw (it's just harder to get to the precise point)...

If one day you discover you're fond of manual focusing a Katz-eye viewfinder glass replacement (not cheap but not needing any mortgaging the house either), it will allow you to use the stigmometer focusing screen all old SLR's used to have :-)
Those who have eyesight problems and prefer manual focusing just rave about it !

I still rely on the original viewfinder glass, but might change in a few years !

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman

by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Sun Mar 9th, 2008 at 02:10:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
My 50mm is making it apparent that the brackets aren't covering the bit they appear to but that really helps to have you point that out!  I'll try to figure out what it is looking at.

More tips for me to follow! Thanks.

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Sun Mar 9th, 2008 at 06:46:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Also taken at the flower show but it wasn't until I got home that I realised I should have just pulled that centre flower to the front and framed it within the others - rather than having a mess of flowers that you can't see the whole shape of.

Photobucket

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 04:06:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
is this the flower subthread?

here is my first (very amateur) entry, from one of two visits last week to the Hangzhou Botanical Gardens.



Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.

by marco on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 05:02:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
and here is another entry, though technically i am not sure if these are "plum" blossoms; these yellow pretties were found amid the the white and pink to deep pink plum blossoms in this part of the gardens:

they turn out to be "wintersweets" (Chimonanthus praecox), or 蝋梅 (là méi, literally "wax or glazed plum") in Mandarin.

unlike the other blossoms, these have a very noticeable and delightful fragrance.  i had never known them before, they turn out to be fairly common.

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.

by marco on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 05:13:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
These. flowers are lovely, BK

I told Bush; don't play chess with the freakin' Russians.
by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 05:33:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Nice shot.

I'm guessing you posted this under the constructive criticism thread by accident ... but I think a little cropping helps with the impact of that.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 06:09:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes... Much better crop :-)

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman
by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 06:11:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I like both, but I do like bruno-ken's original framing.  In this version the flower is front and centre, and you can see the two buds underneath.  In bruno-kens the eye phases a bit--the sharpness of the pistils (maybe I got that wrong!) against the blurriness, but I like the phasing (I'm just saying a lot of personal choice is about what we want---heh....I just wanted bruno-ken to know I liked his photo just the way it was, but I like your version too!  They're different approaches, that's all I wanted to say--not saying it very well, though.

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.
by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 07:11:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's why I said "I think" ...  
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 07:13:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Tat's always the problem with composition... :-)
Either you want to achieve something (a story) and play with settings and composition's accepted and widespread rules (or on the contrary flaunt them)...

Or you just have a nice feeling about the scene and take a picture of it to keep it in some sort of Proust's madeleine diairy !

In the first situation you already think about communicating the picture when you take it, in the second situation,it's more personal and when you show it to others, it's like giving them a bit of your inner feelings...!

None is superior to the other, they are just juxtaposed !
But Colman was right in trying to show how the same picture can tell different stories... :-)

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman

by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 07:19:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In keeping with the Capa "get closer" quotation (above in ref to In Wales' pub portrait) I'd go even closer. The out of focus stuff doesn't add much for me, and in this close-up you notice the buds more - while there is still enough fuzzy background to give a bit of context and to bring out focus on flower.

ZZ572A5DDC-cu

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 08:50:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I prefer mine. I like the context.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 08:53:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's the irritating thing about aesthetics :-)

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 09:16:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
you guessed right, but definitely welcome all and any such feedbacks.

thanks for the tip about cropping.  i am still just playing around with adjusting hue, saturation, contrast, etc. in iPhoto, but i had not even thought about cropping.

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.

by marco on Sat Mar 8th, 2008 at 10:00:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I like this photo but I feel as though I missed an opportunity with it and I can't quite work out what.  Is it the framing, or the colour processing?  I used my 50mm lens because it was inside a fairly dark pub, so the slight grainyness and soft focus is due partly to the shutter speed and a higher ISO.

Photobucket

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 04:11:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
While this picture could have a bit more of blue (white balance) because of the tungsten lighting, it isn't that bad :-)
Framing isn't so bad either, as after all, it can felt as an "attitude" (it's all about art :-) )!

The problem I see here is more about including the light appliance. It adds a "hot spot" on DSLRs cameras that are not so good on extreme values (as can be seen here with the posterisation effect) !
No, the real drawback of such a framing with the light appliance is that it fools your metering system (matrix, average, spot ?) by trying to find a mean value between the very dark shirt (dress?) and the very white hot spot !
As it can't, you loose all details in the shadows AND in the hot spot...

Framing without the appliance would have given at f/1.4  and with a "normal" speed an ISO value that would have kept the shadows correctly illuminated and less noise even at a higher ISO...!

Then there is the focus problem with the shallow DoF (what settings for AF do you use ?) that might have been corrected by manual focus... :-)

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman

by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 04:55:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, the light was the issue on that shot.  I was using the 50mm, so no zoom and I wasn't able to adjust my distance due to tables and people in the way so I couldn't easily have got the light out of the frame without then introducing lots of rubbish into the shot, like people's heads or lights to the left of the shot that were on the wall.

I do find with the 50mm that I have more trouble focussing it on AF than with other lenses.  But when I switch to manual focus I always mess it up even if it looks right in the viewfinder.

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 05:30:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I imagine the auto-focus problem is because you're using it in low-light.
 That thing should snap into focus immediately on a D200.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 05:43:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's the low light that is the issue I think.

Ad astra per aspera
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 05:50:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

It's a pity you couldn't have got closer, Capa's "If your pictures aren't good enough you weren't close enough" is often true - but then that's a macho war photographer talking :-)

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 07:47:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The light in the top corner pulls the eye towards it, away from the subject and is messing up the exposure for the rest of the frame.

The lighting is horrible - mixed tungsten and flourescent as far as I can tell - I can't colour correct is properly.

Why didn't you use a bit of flash? It's a pretty formal portrait.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 05:00:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yeah, awful pub lighting.  Getting used to using flash is something I must work on.  It feels instrusive to use flash too much in places like that.

It was actually an opportunity shot.  I was taking a photo of her talking to someone and she saw me and turned around to face the camera.

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 05:25:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Even though you have a piggy-back flash on that camera, I would suggest a SB 600 (or 800) at the ceiling for a better ambient lighting...

Direct flash goes with harsh shadows (and sharp pictures)!

Anyhow, once you're tagged as the "Gal with the camera" and after a few minutes, indirect flash won't surprise people too much, while direct flash can (and even hurt people with eye problems)!

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman

by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 07:27:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]