Our friendly allies, the proud torturers

by Jerome a Paris
Sat Apr 12th, 2008 at 07:07:23 AM EST

"Well, we started to connect the dots in order to protect the American people." Bush told ABC News White House correspondent Martha Raddatz. "And yes, I'm aware our national security team met on this issue. And I approved."

As first reported by ABC News Wednesday, the most senior Bush administration officials repeatedly discussed and approved specific details of exactly how high-value al Qaeda suspects would be interrogated by the CIA.

I wrote about this yesterday, but seriously, what is it going to take? The US President brags on TV about authorising torture, and the reaction is a big shrug?

We're all complicit.


The high-level discussions about these "enhanced interrogation techniques" were so detailed, these sources said, some of the interrogation sessions were almost choreographed -- down to the number of times CIA agents could use a specific tactic.
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Collective guilt?
by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Sat Apr 12th, 2008 at 07:52:22 AM EST
he was elected, reelected and not impeached. He does seem to je acting with the consent of enough Americans - and the similarly tolerated or encouraged support of European leaders.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Sat Apr 12th, 2008 at 08:10:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'll go along for the sake of discussion.

Torture wasn't invented by Bush. The School of Americas had it codified since the Sixties and everyone looked the other way then. Operation Condor, Honduras, wherever it was possible to refine the techniques. Where were people when it was already public? Shopping?

We've gone back to the Inquisition. The only thing missing is public autos da fe. But perhaps it's not part of the plan. It's a pleasure kick. Like shopping.

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Sat Apr 12th, 2008 at 08:37:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
you beat me to it! see below...
by PIGL on Sat Apr 12th, 2008 at 08:40:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Two short comments that must rely on memory. I don't really bother distinguishing among pundits and editorialists in USAn media, so I can't name the guilty or cite specific sources.  

  1. Torture is not something the Republicans and their enablers adopted reluctantly by force of circumstance. They lusted after it. The faux-worldly, pseudo-realist apologies were already in the top drawers of the more viscous  elements of the punditry just waiting for a change to ooze onto the editorial pages of the Washington Post and New York Times. I suspect that protection of a certain key "ally" featured in some of the writers motivation, but that's another story.

  2. The mainstream respectable liberal opinionators, who come down four-square against torture as if it were some inexplicable (though understandable) aberration in America's history of cosmic goodness are no better. They write as if the Central and South American death squads of the 70s and 80s were not financed and supported by American government. As if their systematic use of torture was not condoned, nay encouraged. As if the torturers had not been trained American forces, and as if the School of the Americas had never existed. This stuff goes back at least to World War 2.

That's my Saturday rant.
by PIGL on Sat Apr 12th, 2008 at 08:39:03 AM EST
PIGL:
This stuff goes back at least to World War 2.

I will get round to writing by Big torture diary but I still have in excess of 1000 pages of background to read, but most of the techniques in use, go back to the French and British colonial governments in the 1920's. and a good quantity of the patterns of usage come from the US prison service.

Give a politician an inch, and he'll think he's a ruler

by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Sat Apr 12th, 2008 at 09:24:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
ceebs, my WW2 reference was to the transportal to the  USA of members of the Nazi state security apparatus.

I am glad someone is looking into this history seriously, and I will be very interested to read your diary, once you have completed your research. I'd say I was looking forward to it, but that would be morbid and creepifying.

by PIGL on Sat Apr 12th, 2008 at 09:41:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
the morbid and creepifying nature is why the stack of books is taking so long to read.

The Nazis are a convenient scapegoat, but from my reading so far it appears that theres a convenient forgetting of our own actions before 1945.

Give a politician an inch, and he'll think he's a ruler

by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Sat Apr 12th, 2008 at 09:54:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
your findings should of course come as no surprise. I wonder if there is room to the systematic institution of rape in your analysis...as you mentioned, in a previous comment, something about the antecedents of the torture state in prisons.

"We don't torture
 we're a civilised nation"

The Au Pairs.

by PIGL on Sat Apr 12th, 2008 at 10:18:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Some things I've read say that Rape is a particularly counterproductive form of torture, Although it was employed in a widespread manner in Algeria, It was seen as a primitive form of torture in that although it made the torturer feel more empowered, it had no particular effect on the torturee in terms of extracting information.

Generally Rape isn't covered in the textbooks on torture to the extent of other methods.

Part of the Taguba report on Abu Ghraib includes comments that one of the translators raped five or six teenage boys, while a female guard took photographs. These must be in the pictures that have yet to come out from the investigation.

Give a politician an inch, and he'll think he's a ruler

by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Sat Apr 12th, 2008 at 10:38:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ceebs, I was being oblique.

You had mentioned and have since elaborated upon the connection between abuses characteristic of the US prison system, past and present, and the use of torture by US authorities in occupied nations, prison camps, and like circumstances.

Rape is a form of abuse reportedly very common in US prisons. It is so much a part of expectation based on popular culture of movies and TV that it seems to constitute a broadly accepted form of extra-judicial punishment.

The tacit acceptance and even approval of prison rape in the American public seems to me related in some way to the tacit and even enthusiastic support for torture. There may even be a common base in racism, although I can't quite see what it is.

That's what I was getting at: not that rape is a form of torture used for extracting information, but that it is a form of degradation used to inflict punishment and establish or maintain dominance relations. And these are the main purpose of the institution of torture, according to some I have read. Extracting information is seldom the real purpose, which is why discussions of tortures effectiveness in that respect are moot. Torture (and rape) are very effective at their actual purpose which the instillation of terror.

by PIGL on Sat Apr 12th, 2008 at 12:48:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

One of the best cartoons of our times.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Sat Apr 12th, 2008 at 12:19:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Talking Points Memo: by Joshua Micah Marshall | 05.08.04 -- 1:54AM By Josh Marshall
An uncomfortable backdrop to the Abu Ghraib story is the knowledge that various sorts of abuse are endemic throughout the American prison system. Along those lines, here's a clip from a piece in Saturday's Times by Fox Butterfield: "The experts also point out that the man who directed the reopening of the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq last year and trained the guards there resigned under pressure as director of the Utah Department of Corrections in 1997 after an inmate died while shackled to a restraining chair for 16 hours. The inmate, who suffered from schizophrenia, was kept naked the whole time. The Utah official, Lane McCotter, later became an executive of a private prison company, one of whose jails was under investigation by the Justice Department when he was sent to Iraq as part of a team of prison officials, judges, prosecutors and police chiefs picked by Attorney General John Ashcroft to rebuild the country's criminal justice system."
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Sat Apr 12th, 2008 at 10:07:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
France is regularly sentenced by the European Court of Huma nRights for its deadful treatment of prisoners.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Sat Apr 12th, 2008 at 10:28:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I suppose you meant to say dreadful, but deadful makes for a nice synonym to lethal, which also describes some aspects of the French jails properly.

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Sat Apr 12th, 2008 at 12:56:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
and shameful either way.

But our current crop of leaders doesn't do shame.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Sat Apr 12th, 2008 at 01:03:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Has any our our crops even cared about what happens in jails

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Sat Apr 12th, 2008 at 02:36:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
We should not assume that we are innocent, yes. Still a lot to be improved at home.

At least there seems to be a consensus against privatisation of prisons in Europe and prison rape is not something that is almost celebrated in popular culture. And, thankfully, we have the ECHR.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Sat Apr 12th, 2008 at 02:23:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
France also waterboards people. But it's not official policy and it's in Africa so no one cares.

And no one should be surprised it happens, considering the literature they read at Saint-Cyr.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Sat Apr 12th, 2008 at 07:36:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
We're all complicit

I wrote this exact sentence about the exact same subject some 6 months ago and was royally kicked from pillar to post. I wonder what certain people will say now ?

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Sat Apr 12th, 2008 at 09:23:06 AM EST
I'll say what I said then: Why am I complicit?  I am not my (or any) govt., I didn't vote for them (in the case of the US I don't have a vote to give), I don't agree with them on this issue, they may want to (or pretend to) speak for me--but they don't.

Unless one wants to argue that by not spending 24/7 for the rest of my life finding the most egregious bad acts done by humans to other humans (or beyond!) and then working out how, as a member of the human race, I must be responsible in some way--or didn't do enough somehow, didn't act when I should have--

Or go the other way:

If had voted for (or encouraged others to vote for) torture-enablers, I'd be complicit in approving their general scheme (but maybe I was lied to!)

If I currently agreed with the torture-enabling stance, I'd be condoning torture activities and therefore an accomplice of sorts.

But I didn't and I don't--so why am I complicit?

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Sat Apr 12th, 2008 at 09:51:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As far as I see it, we're engaging in a rhetorical provocation to see what comes of it. I doubt anyone here is knowingly complicit, but for the sake of argument what is it in our societies or in our nature that condones or leads to the generalized use of torture? What Can we be the devil's advocate? Is it enough to just oppose torture? Just how banal and ordinary is torture?
by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Sat Apr 12th, 2008 at 01:43:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The question is, at what point does moral outrage become such that one is compelled to step outside the system altogether? For example, Brian Haw was most definitely not complicit in the war on Iraq, but how about the rest of us who continued going about our lives, doing our jobs, and paying our taxes?

At what point does resistance become a moral obligation?

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Apr 12th, 2008 at 03:05:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That is the question, and it is a hard one.  As far as I know there is no bright line anywhere, no boolean test that we can apply to the slippery slope of national moral failure.  But surely when our chief executive confesses on national television for all the world to hear that he and the entire top echelon of our national government actively conspired to commit torture, an international war crime, surely we have crossed some undeniable threshold.  

Somewhere in cyberspace, the ghost of de Chardin is smiling.
by budr on Sat Apr 12th, 2008 at 03:31:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The threshold crossed is the line between mutual knowledge and common knowledge. This can have serious consequences down the line which will seem to come out of nowhere due to the time lag, as a result of a process of "subterraneous information processing" as a result of the fact that people now know not only that the US president tortured, but that everyone knows that everyone else knows about it.
Sizing up other investors is more than a matter of psychology. New logical notions are needed as well. One of them, "common knowledge", due originally to the economist Robert Aumann, is crucial to understanding the complexity of the stock market and the importance of transparency. A bit of information is common knowledge among a group of people if all prties know it, know that the others know it, know that the others know they know it, and so on. It is much more than "mutual knowledge", which requires only that the parties know the particular bit of information, not that they be aware of others' knowledge.

As I'll discuss later, this notion of common knowledge is essential to seeing how "subterranean information processing" often underlies sudden bubbles or crashes in the markets, changes that are precipitated by nothing at all and therefore are almost impossible to foresee. -- John Allen Paulos in A Mathematician Plays the Market



When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Apr 12th, 2008 at 03:49:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Prince Geoffrey: I know. You know I know. I know you know I know. We know Henry knows, and Henry knows we know it.
[smiles]
Prince Geoffrey: We're a knowledgeable family.

The Lion in Winter (1968) - Memorable quotes

Just one of the many memorable quotes from a memorable movie.

Somewhere in cyberspace, the ghost of de Chardin is smiling.

by budr on Sat Apr 12th, 2008 at 04:30:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What does resistance mean?  It's to resist the terrorist threat that--playing devil's advocate--the U.S. govt. is forced to torture.  It is their moral obligation--no matter how unpleasant the task.

And thank the good lord that some people seem to enjoy that line of work--unpleasant but necessary.

I'd see it the other way: every day we are engaged in resistance actions; but those that are enjoyable for us and everyone else around us are the...most enjoyable--and they're acts of resistance as much as building up a head of frustration and then lashing out.

I understand the need to lash out, but it always seems--to me--to produce a whole heap of negative energy.

So--resistance.  I'd suggest that the first resistance is to peer pressure--to think and act like everyone else.

The next form of resistance is in ones choice of profession.  If no one chose a profession that involves picking up a gun, there'd be no more need for guns, that kind of thing--"You are implicated by the job you do"--no "I had to do it" except in extreme circumstances (and aren't they always?)

Then there's our money.  Ignoring the tax part for a moment, where we spend our money--in a chain store or in a local store, on high quality products or tat, on valuable items or on nonsense.  (There's so much money sitting around--it could be put to better use!)

Then there's social involvement: are you (am I) involved in my local community in some way, do I participate or do I just live in my box and ignore the others--

Hmmmm....

I'd say....hmmmm.....hate and blame can be laid at anyone's feet--and will presumably be repaid in kind--hence maybe a progressive reaction to so much hate and blame is to want to throw it back--or inwards (in the devil's advocate version--!)

I'd say: to the extent that I look out for myself before all others--to the extent I behave in that way I am complicit in the system that supports my selfish ways.  To the extent I participate with others--the system is there to support us--but what if I'm a nazi?  Not very bright, maybe, but I can see the system's not working for me--or my kind--and now I'm building up a head of angry steam, I've got some moral indignation going on--and then the Grand Wizard leads a meeting, but he's anguished!

"We are complicit!" he screams.  "We allowed them dirty niggers to stomp on all that we love.  We are guilty, brothers and sisters--"

And then the scene morphs to a Stop The War meeting--and the local leader is talking about their progress and she says,

"We are complicit.  We allowed those scum-sucking parasites to--"

If the idea is to goad people into action, I always prefer something more...arousing than self-flagelation.

Whack!  Whack!  We have sinned!  Forgive us!

Ah, but there's no god to ask for forgiveness..--

So--it's a rhetorical device to argue what states should be doing--and why they aren't.  And the answer is: they (we) are complicit.  Well....of course!  The powerful are always complicit in retaining their parity of power--obsessed by it--no going down the ladder, no sliding down the greasy pole--and those that do...they might be nazis or....some other terrible kind of people--

So if I have power, I have responsibility.  And if I use my power to negative ends--or if I allow my position of power to shelter me from the negative ends of another person--without protecting those who don't have my position of power to protect them--unless I offer it, in which case the power is shared--if they want it, but often they don't, human beings--complex thoughts--driven by crazy fantasies.

I just don't think adding "we" to the bunch of people who need kicking out of their bunker--adds anything, unless it's taken at the level of individual actions--so first up, your social circle, your direct human contacts; then your economic contacts, or should it be your professional contacts; and then your social contacts--back to the beginning, but a helix not a circle...--

Gah!

Okay, I think anyone who voted for Berlusconi is complicit in either their own stupidity (they don't want to be informed); or their own mendacity--or just plain confused--but how can a person be confused by Berlusconi?

That's a triple ach confusion /rant

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Sat Apr 12th, 2008 at 03:52:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You sort of missed my point, which was illuminating.

My point was not that you disagree with the formulation of "we are all complicit", I was rather making the prediction that nobody was gonna have a go at JaP for saying it, which has been borne out.

Conversely people people felt very free back then to make pretty strong attacks, not just on the suggestion of personal complicity, but asking who the heck I thought I was for making the slur. Let's be honest I am not noticeably intellecutally equipped to refute protestations of innocence from those who are prepared to write at length a philosophical version of Bart Simpson saying "You can't prove anything guv". But JaP is,  .... so crickets chirp.

Others here have discussed the extent of complicity in a representative democracy. They may not represent every view you hold but, via constituecy obligations,  they represent you directly. Others have asked the depth of guilt in which people voted for Bush despite knowing what was being done in their name.

But that was not my point, and you proved it.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Sun Apr 13th, 2008 at 06:53:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I wrote this exact sentence about the exact same subject some 6 months ago [...]. I wonder what certain people will say now ?

I did remember you writing "We are all complicit" a while back, and I remember replying "Why am I complicit?"

(Beyond that I don't remember.)

So, fair enough.  What will I say now? Well,

I'll say what I said then:

should be (if one asssumes good faith!) translate as: I will repeat here [here = in public, in Jerome's diary]

etc...

Let's be honest I am not noticeably intellecutally equipped to refute protestations of innocence from those who are prepared to write at length a philosophical version of Bart Simpson saying "You can't prove anything guv". But JaP is,  .... so crickets chirp.

Not sure what the Bart Simpson part is about, but my question ("Why am I complicit?") is here in this diary. Jerome (or anyone else) is free to deal with the question--that's why I wrote it again--to counter the suggestion that I (we? I'll come back to that) wouldn't ask such a thing if Jerome were reading, ready to reply.

Conversely people people felt very free back then to make pretty strong attacks, not just on the suggestion of personal complicity, but asking who the heck I thought I was for making the slur.

I don't remember any of that--if it was me, I apologise!--

(I presume the written records are stored in the ET historyfile somewhere--I can't find them.)

If your point was that I needed prodding--well, my reasons for not replying were varied, but not to do with only picking on those who can't argue back--if you see it that way, I'm sorry--it certainly wasn't and isn't my intention--

(I was hoping...heh!....that my reply would counteract that--can you see?  I did it to invalidate any suggestions--not an ego thing, more a 'stand up for others' sense--the 'other' in this case was you!--that Jerome was somehow not to be argued with.)

Or--gah!  I took on board your point (as I understood it) that [negative quality --->] the individual doing the stating is more important than the statement--a hierarchy thing--and I tried to negate the hierarchy thing by [attempt to remove the negative quality -->] re-stating as an open question the same point such that it would be clear that at least for me this wasn't a hierarchy thing.

That was my intention.
...

But assuming there were more people involved, I can't invalidate it on my own--

Assuming those other people are reading, of course!

And assuming I haven't missed the point again (I am a slow learner!)

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Sun Apr 13th, 2008 at 09:46:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Methinks you're forgetting that today is not six months ago.

A number of people around here are simply noticeably more pissed off with our rulers now than they were six months ago. It may be that the my own perceptions have changed (in fact, I'm pretty sure they have), but I do think that the appeals to some sort of active resistance have wider appeal than they used to have.

Of course, the Admin effect is probably a factor in the relatively less... vociferous nature of the criticism (picking flamewars with a Root is something you don't do unless you're terminally stupid).

- Jake

640 kiloton should be enough for anybody

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Apr 13th, 2008 at 11:11:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But right now I feel overwhelmed by how our (broadly defined) elites are reacting to the accumulation of horrors from our governments, especially now that Sarkozy has decided to throw his lot with the Bush-Brown war criminals/warmongerers brigade.

They see it (or not), and they are not saying anything. Even now, as they blithely talk about how unpopular these leaders are, wondrously opine about the financial crisis as if it were an unrelated, exogenous event.

Slowly drowning in syrup.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Sat Apr 12th, 2008 at 10:34:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Something I wrote a while back to explain my choice of username.


A not very clever play on the term innocent bystander.  None of us can claim innocence, anymore, of the things done in our name. I freely confess my ignorance, and I've been a bystander for far too long.

As I sit festering on all the pent-up anger, frustration, and shame at the actions of my government, I also sit in bewilderment.  What am I to do as an individual citizen of a supposedly democratic nation, when those we elect to represent us, including in some cases those I voted for, do nothing?  What do we do when it is our government that fails us?

Somewhere in cyberspace, the ghost of de Chardin is smiling.

by budr on Sat Apr 12th, 2008 at 03:20:27 PM EST
Never forget. Whenever one opens hir mouth to remind others of what human dignity means, that person is not complicit.
by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Sat Apr 12th, 2008 at 06:35:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I happened to be watching ABC news last Wednesday evening (just between the BBC and PBS) when this story was broken over the air - it seemed almost incredible but there was a national network saying that high officials had openly discussed and approved torture in the White House on several occasions.  (Here is a link).  Then they named names - and I turned to my partner who was watching along with me and said, "Well, I suppose that's to help the folks at The Hague when it comes to drawing up a complete list."  And then I thought "Well, I'd think twice about travelling much outside of the US now that you've been named as war criminals on a national news report - even if they don't catch you here (and I cross my fingers still, yes perhaps in vain, but hey...), they may catch up with you on the Riviera or when shooting in the Midlands or wherever."  So it was certainly a strange moment.

Of course criminal liability for torture has already been suggested by the English barrister Philippe Sands in an article which is in the current number of Vanity Fair (the one with the Madonna cover) on the treatment of prisoners at Guantanamo.

I believe that most Americans are deeply ashamed of what has happened in their name, but they are not emotionally equipped to criticize the country publicly - somehow, that still seems treasonous and disloyal, even though in private, people bemoan what has been done by Bush's thugs.  Remember, every time someone criticizes the Iraq disaster, a right-winger will jump up shouting about how you must hate the troops, etc.  The disloyalty issue is huge, and potent, and ill-defined.  Few Americans are prepared publicly to state that Iraq was a criminal enterprise, because Bush made it seem to so many like the right thing to do - and then got voted in for a second term on that basis. I think many Americans simply cannot admit they were had, and were wrong, and have been used by evil people. To believe that would be too upsetting to their preconceived notions of how America behaves (always the nice guy, in spite of, uh, unfortunate moments in Viet Nam, Nicaragua, Panama, Chile, Granada, Iran, Cambodia, Philippines and so forth.)

So, in the long run, I suspect that denial will work its usual wonders on everyone and eventually push these "unpleasant events" back into the American public's sub or unconscious, but of course, something unexpected, like Condoleeza Rice getting served papers in, uh, Madrid or somewhere, could change the whole plan. So, to some degree, I'd say it's up to the rest of the world to point out to the US that it is not totally free of a legal responsibility to behave in a civilized way, confirmed by treaties and other agreements, just because it's a superpower.

by Edouard (edouard@salebetedeletethis.net) on Sat Apr 12th, 2008 at 03:34:38 PM EST
is one hell of an important post/discussion.

Bread and circus, I'm afraid. At what point do the sheep look up?

by Nomad on Sat Apr 12th, 2008 at 05:43:55 PM EST
Just before they get smacked round the back of the head with a hammer by the poacher.

Give a politician an inch, and he'll think he's a ruler
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Sat Apr 12th, 2008 at 05:58:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The US is polarized between a minority that screams for high-level prosecutions and a majority that favors, at most, a change of administration and policy.

I think we can be confident that the high-level prosecutions will never happen, and I think that most here would agree that it isn't enough to quietly change people and policies (for an election cycle or two).

Neither attempting to prosecute nor ignoring the crimes and moving on can heal the US -- no more than prosecutions or denial could have healed South Africa.

I advocate what has succeeded in similar cases: a Truth and Reconciliation Commission. (According to this Wikipedia article, Josh Marshall has already called for this).

From the page linked above:

A truth commission or truth and reconciliation commission is a commission tasked with discovering and revealing past wrongdoing by a government, in the hope of resolving conflict left over from the past. They are, under various names, occasionally set up by states emerging from periods of internal unrest, civil war, or dictatorship.

This seems to fit the case better than any alternative I know.

Words and ideas I offer here may be used freely and without attribution.

by technopolitical on Sun Apr 13th, 2008 at 03:50:01 AM EST
But AFAIK truth and reconciliation have yet to be tested on international crimes. And that aside, while truth and reconciliation will undoubtedly be a necessity for the mid- and lowlevel appointees [1], we need to put away Cheney, Rumsfeldt et al until they are old and grey - well, older and greyer. A lot of the top cronies are by all accounts simply incapable of truth and conciliation, nevermind reconciliation.

- Jake

[1] If for no other reason (and there are plenty of other reasons) then because you can't de-Nixonify the US by imprisoning every criminal involved - that would leave them almost completely without civil servants.

640 kiloton should be enough for anybody

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Apr 13th, 2008 at 11:21:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It would indeed be new ground in multiple ways, and I would welcome long, long prison terms for the leaders responsible.

By US law, however, international treaties are themselves US law, and so at least some international crimes are automatically domestic as well. Also, the broader purpose of truth and reconciliation is the transformative effect of making past horrors common knowledge, which brings people closer together by giving them a shared understanding of reality -- this cannot not guarantee harmony, but it lessens a cause for discord.

And if the process didn't include a promise of immunity for the top deciders, it would help build the political consensus necessary for prosecution, and that prosecution being seen as legitimate.

Words and ideas I offer here may be used freely and without attribution.

by technopolitical on Sun Apr 13th, 2008 at 03:21:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I've written before about the Finnish prison system, which has undergone a radical change over the last 17 years.

The Sentences Enforcement Act set these requirements on the Prison Service.

http://www.vankeinhoito.fi/14994.htm

  • Punishment is a mere loss of liberty: The enforcement of sentence must be organised so that the sentence is only loss of liberty. Other restrictions can be used to the extent that the security of custody and the prison order require.

  • Prevention of harm, promoting of placement into society: Punishment shall be enforced so that it does not unnecessarily impede but, if possible, promotes a prisoner's placement in society. Harms caused by imprisonment must be prevented, if possible.

  • Normality: The circumstances in a penal institution must be organised so that they correspond to those prevailing in the rest of society.

  • Justness, respect for human dignity, prohibition of discrimination: Prisoners must be treated justly and respecting their human dignity. Prisoners may not be placed without grounds in an unequal position because of their race, nationality or ethnic origin, skin colour, language, gender, age, family status, sexual orientation or state of health or religion, social opinion, political or labour activities or other such similar thing.

  • Special needs of juvenile prisoners: When implementing a sanction sentenced to a juvenile offender, special attention must be paid to the special needs caused by the prisoner's age and stage of development.

  • Hearing of prisoner: A prisoner must be heard when a decision is being made concerning his/her placing in dwelling, work or other activity and some other important matter connected to his/her treatment.

Finland is lowest in the EU for emprisoned per capita. The US has over 15 times more per capita, than Finland. The Finnish system appears to be highly successful, both in terms of recidivism and social cost benefit.

The whole point is rehabilitation - modifying behaviour, both in prison and, by extended contact after release, in after care. The problem is therefore 'modifying' to what?

The aims of the Finnish system are quite simple: the restoration of dignity, or the removal of anti-social behaviour without the dilution of freedom. That is, it is far more concerned with the removal of Learned Behaviour Disorders, than their replacement with other Behavioural restrictions. It is an important distinction imo.

There is, though, a small conundrum. The security of these gateless prisons is made possible by advanced surveillance systems. Thus the prisoner perception of freedom remains only a perception. They are not really free. But isn't that a metaphor for any of us in society; that our behaviour is also modified by the 'invisible' surveillance of the network we live in?

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Sun Apr 13th, 2008 at 07:38:04 AM EST
Much has been made, in this and in other threads elsewhere, of the passivity of the American public in the face of so many outrages committed by the Bush administration and its collaborators (such as various supposedly independent courts).  To take one famous example of an aroused public, the March of the Women on Versailles in October 1789, the ostensible cause was the high price of bread.  Or, in other words, a pocket-book issue that would be experienced by many.  In the USA today, without a draft taking away some young people and making the others sweat, with no special tax raised for the meaningless "War on Terror", with no "average" Americans being "disappeared" so far, with gasoline and food and entertainment available although becoming more expensive, there is little to trigger a reaction from most Americans towards what the Bush people have been doing in faraway, virtually invisible places such as Bagram or Guantanamo.  And it is clear that this is just what the current administration has aimed for.  Americans do not want to think they are criminals and as long as there is little or no "hard" (ie, visual, as in the case of the Abu Ghraib photographs) evidence that Americans have been committing crimes against humanity, the majority of the population will simply ignore the occasional written reports as fanciful exaggerations of the infamous "liberal" media.  Until something occurs that disrupts the surface calm of American society - a serious spike in gas prices, for instance, or the revelation of an American concentration camp somewhere with lots of gruesome photos, or someone in the administration leaking some devastating information, I cannot see that there will be much of a public response to what Bush has done.  Most people want it simply to go away, and they're hoping they can brush all the mess under the carpet and forget it about it.  Most Americans, it is my opinion, do not honestly want a close and uncomfortable examination of the crimes of this administration, because they instinctively know that it would reveal many dubious arrangements on which America's affluence has been based.  Much less distressing to wave the flag and say "God bless America!" than to look too closely at how Wall Street (to take just one sector) has been subsidized by uncontrolled Defense Department contracts.  The American public is nervous, guilty, greedy and afraid the "free" ride may be about to stop.  That's what they care about much more than some anti-American "ragheads" being tortured in places they can't pronounce anyway.
by Edouard (edouard@salebetedeletethis.net) on Sun Apr 13th, 2008 at 09:21:19 AM EST
People will ignore very hard something that their livelihood depends on ignoring

(or something to that extent)

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Sun Apr 13th, 2008 at 02:26:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"It's hard to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it." - Upton Sinclair

- Jake

640 kiloton should be enough for anybody

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Apr 13th, 2008 at 03:54:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Edouard:
Until something occurs that disrupts the surface calm of American society - a serious spike in gas prices, for instance, or the revelation of an American concentration camp somewhere with lots of gruesome photos, or someone in the administration leaking some devastating information, I cannot see that there will be much of a public response to what Bush has done.
Excuse me, but haven't we heard reports of atrocities in Afghanistan (specifically Mazar-e-Sharif), pictures of torture from Abu Ghraib, brutal pictures of routine prisoner treatment at Guantanamo, the Tabuga report, discussions of Waterboarding in the US Congress, and now the revelation that Cheney authorised torture by the CIA and Bush wuoted in this diary casually admitting that he knew and approved?

What more does the American public, no, what more does the House of Representatives (who can initiate impeachment proceedings for high crimes and misdemeanors) need? What would be sufficiently gruesome?

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 08:54:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't think they could get away with gas chambers (that the public knew about). Or with torturing white people.

- Jake

640 kiloton should be enough for anybody

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 03:40:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This diary reminds me very much of the case of Kurt Gerstein. I have translated the last paragraphs from the Italian translation of the French book Kurt Gerstein ou l'ambiguïté du bien. It therefore is not the same as the English version of which I have no copy. All italics are mine.

When on January 20, 1965, the president-minister of Bade-Wurtemberg, Kurt Kiesinger, rehabilitated Gerstein, he based his ruling on the fact that "Gerstein had fought against National-Socialism with the measure of his forces and he suffered the consequences." From a juridical point of view, Mr. Kiesinger's decision is satisfactory, but it makes no reference to the fundamental argumentation on which the Tubinga Tribunal based its guilty sentence [of Gerstein]. It is however precisely this argumentation that goes to the heart of the problem that his case poses to public opinion: the Tubinga Tribunal, although conceding that Gerstein's position was one of resistance to Nazism, he was condemned because his efforts were useless: "... he should have understood" the text recites "that alone he could never have stopped the extermination nor save even a few lives..." Gerstein therefore was accused of having attempted to resist within the limits of his forces, not to have acted like the large majority of "good" Germans, not to have waited in silence until all the Jews were dead. The "innocence" of those who passively assisted to the crime was opposed to the "guilt" of he who, in order to resist, had to, up to a certain point, make a pact with crime. But this compromise was typical of all opposition within a system such as the national-socialist regime, one had to act "from the inside" and at times take part in the execution of orders. In this condition the distinction between Good and Evil was in part blurred to the point that he who resisted had to, at a certain point, appear to be on the executioner's side. This is the ineluctable consequence of the human condition within a totalitarian system. But in turn is the passive spectator of a crime innocent?

If therefore the resistance from the inside of a totalitarian system is by its nature ambiguous, it leave only to be defined by a single yet essential criteria: the danger involved. There were many Germans who invoked the argument of resistance within the system to explain their participation in Nazi crimes, but how many were there who demonstrated their will to resist by taking actions that, had they been discovered, would have entailed death? Kurt Gerstein was one of these.

It is the total passivity of the "others" that gives the story of Gerstein its unique character and its exceptional importance. Had there been in Germany thousands or even hundreds of Gersteins, and each would have attempted to cancel shipments of toxic gas, misplace documents or provoke delays in the construction of gas chambers or crematories, if others had attempted to warn the Jews in occupied countries and above all ceaselessly inform the Germans and the world, undoubtedly hundreds of thousands of Jews would have been saved precisely by these complicit "officials" of the regime. At that point all these Gersteins would have been heroes, recognized as such.

The true drama of Gerstein is that he was alone in his actions. The silence and the complete passivity of the Germans, the absence of any sort of reaction by the Allies or the neutral states, or to put it better, by the entire Christian West faced with the extermination of the Jews, makes Gerstein a deeply tragic person, closed in an impenetrable circle of solitude and incomprehension: just as his pleas went without echo, his sacrifice appeared "useless" and he was charged "guilty."


by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Sun Apr 13th, 2008 at 05:57:22 PM EST
which applies to less tragic political fights: can you ifght for change from within the system, or do you need to do it from the outside?

This is partly the "pragmatists" vs "purists" debate (excet that in that case the passive Germans were not quite pure) and there's no easy answer.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 04:33:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Totalitarism has also changed radically. Hobbes' monster is now friendly, a real charmer, who plays the democracy card to its advantage. We risk being "good Germans" all the same.
by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 05:37:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And being a banker, you feel this more acutely than most??  :-)

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 08:40:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
With power comes responsibility.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 08:44:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And yet one's power, within an organisation, is often only insofar as one acts in line with the organisational objectives as set by the leadership, and it is remarkable how quickly the great and the mighty can fall once they step outside those parameters.

Sometimes I think that it is self-destructive, even egotistical, to take responsibility for things you can do absolutely nothing about.  There is an old  saying which goes something like:

"God, grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
the courage to change the things I can;
and the wisdom to know the difference".

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 10:34:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
(I must be good at rationalizing)

I don't feel I'm subject to terrible dilemmas. I have great freedom of action, to blog, to speak my mind, and I work in a sector where I can do useful things and actually lead the way.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 04:09:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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