European Tribune - Community, Politics & Progress.

I thought we'd been there since the ~~Reichstag Fire~~Pentagon Crash.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 02:58:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: double standards watch (4.00 / 3)

What is "radical leftism"? I'd settle for "liberal-ish" in America at this point. Hell, at this point, I'd happily vote for anyone sane enough to say, "We're not going to randomly invade countries which haven't attacked us anymore just because the Very Serious People think it's awesome." I feel like I'm a radical leftist by American standards half the time, and that's fucking pathetic.

And it's not as though Europe is in the midst of Marxist rebellion at the moment, being ruled by Brown, Berlusconi, Sarkozy, and Merkel.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 01:45:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

That's sort of my point. It is completely marginal - whether you're talking about radical greens pining for their agrarian Eden or Leninists stuck in nostalgia for the dictatorial planned economy or the vaguely Ward Churchilly types - no one cares outside a few college campuses and of course the right wing noise machine.

by MarekNYC on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 01:51:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

That's probably being a bit generous, since the first and third groups are probably made up of the same three or four people.

What was Churchill's whole shtick, by the way? I know he was angry about the Indians, but I never figured out what it was, exactly, that he wanted, because the coverage was just non-stop "Churchill Hates America, Freedom and Kittens" bullshit.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 01:59:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: double standards watch (4.00 / 2)

I thought that in America movements like MoveOn are already considered radically left by the right wing noise machine.

Hell, they even tell me Steve Clemons is a leftist.

Where this leaves the actual radicals, I don't know.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 02:04:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

They think Merkel and Chirac are leftists.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 02:09:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Compared to Clinton and Obama, they are.

Freiheit ist immer Freiheit der Andersdenkenden

by redstar on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 06:51:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: double standards watch (4.00 / 5)

I don't want to get into the situation where I'm drunkenly shouting at an American "You wouldn't know a leftist if one came up and bit you" again

Interviewer: What do you believe is behind this recent increase in terrorist bombings? Helpmann: Bad sportsmanship

by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 02:10:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Again?

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 02:11:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Who hasn't?

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 02:15:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: double standards watch (4.00 / 2)

At some point continuing to read daily kos becomes nothing more than a vehicle for cultivating your anger.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 02:21:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: double standards watch (4.00 / 5)

Feel the anger flowing through you... you cannot deny the power of the Orange Side.

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 02:53:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I was thinking about a diary on this, but after your comment, what more is there to add?

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:31:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

That will teach me not to snark.

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:36:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Well, most people view the media much like they view advertising - the propaganda and emotional manipulation affect everyone but me, because I understand how it works. So I write a 2000 word essay on the topic, everyone nods in agreement, then go right back to media induced fear and loathing. What's the point?

I suppose I could whip up a personal narrative on how I (mostly) beat this out of my own system.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:49:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Same way for many of us Americans. I just go, look, despair and head for here or Docudharma or EENR. Or get out the Strat and bug my office mates.

"I said, 'Wait a minute, Chester, You know I'm a peaceful man...'" Robbie Robertson

by NearlyNormal on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 04:39:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: double standards watch (4.00 / 7)

Well, yes, but they really love to troll for the genuine ones and suggest that mainstream libs share their views - it's their favorite one-two punch. The irony of course is that many of the radicals despise us wishy-washy libs about as much as they do the right.

Incidentally, another nice example of double standards is the treatment of Venezuela and Columbia. In both cases you have a genuinely popular and democratically elected leader with strong authoritarian tendencies. One harasses his opponents and applies heavy governmental pressure on the opposing media. The other does the same - plus has ties to death squads who kill and terrorize the opposition. Expressing sympathy for the former is a mark of dangerous radicalism and hatred for Freedom. Hailing the latter as a champion of Freedom is de rigeur among the center and the right.

by MarekNYC on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 02:20:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Don't get me started on the US media attitude to Columbia...

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 02:41:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

it's spelled ColOmbia - just because it took me a while to figure out what you were talking about

I spent quite a bit of time in that country and it was an amazing place

there were a few things that surprised me about it:

I expected the place to be as macho as Poland or Greece, with the men sitting and drinking coffee and the women doing all the work but that wasn't the case at all. Later, I learned that Colombians were once considered to be great workers in the USA, until the narcotics over-shadowed that reputation.
there are guns everywhere. Even the traffic police in Bogota carry Uzis on their belts. Every shop has an armed guard that stands outside the shop with a rifle ready to use. This means that on a commercial street with shops on both sides, all you see are these armed men with their rifles.
there are army posts all over, sand-bagged with soldiers at the ready behind machine guns. this can be quite disconcerting for someone who isn't used to it.
people spend the whole day walking their cows in the cities because they are landless.
don't ever drive in Colombia unless you have piloted in Formula 1
the Colombians are the kindest, most hospitable people you will ever meet.

by zoe on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 02:56:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

it's spelled ColOmbia - just because it took me a while to figure out what you were talking about

Considering where you live, you must have heard Kolumbien.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:03:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

zoe:

don't ever drive in Colombia unless you have piloted in Formula 1

Why? Is no overtaking allowed?

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:12:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

overtaking is only allowed when it is near impossible to do, and only on twisted mountain roads with no guard rails and 2000 feet drops at high speed with a car with no brakes - you get the idea

lots of those roadside memorials in Colombia...

by zoe on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:16:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

ah yes - you mean like in Portugal?

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:21:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Or on a good many of the mountain roads I've driven in the US.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:27:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Irish financial directors should have no problem...

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:24:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Now you've really lost me. Do you know any Irish financial Directors? They don't do overtaking. They just own the road.

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:33:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Sorry, forgot the link into today's Salon>

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:35:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Ah, ok. Don't know the guy. It seems he got off on a very minor technicality - a pretty common occurrence under Irish law. The chief requirement is to have a good lawyer. I would have thought that under a European Union, extradition wouldn't be required in the first place -but it looks as if we have some way to go.

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:48:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

... and Columbia.

The school or the space shuttle? ;)

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:02:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Wasn't the school spelled "Columbine"?

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:04:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I was thinking of the university in New York.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:05:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: double standards watch (4.00 / 3)

The school or the space shuttle? ;)

Gotta watch out for those death squads of political correctness crushing dissent on campus.

by MarekNYC on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:07:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Ha, not so far from the actual right-wing talking points.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:10:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

not really very funny, is it?

I know a story of a person who lived in a small village in Colombia and returned from studying abroad. The local priest asked him to teach English to the parishioners, but the guy declined because he didn't want to be involved with anything with the Church (but didn't say that - he declined politely).

A few days later, he was in a shop, when the shopkeeper told him that there were people outside waiting to kill him when he got out because he had dishonoured the priest. He slipped out the back and left, never to return.

This war between right and left in Colombia has been going on for 50 years.

by zoe on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:10:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'm getting to the point (4.00 / 5)

where I'm thinking that having all these leaders in place just in time for the Grand Economic Meltdown is going to discredit the right for a good long time. They'll take the blame.

Sigh... one can hope.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 01:58:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm getting to the point (none / 1)

That, or they'll scapegoat Mexicans here, Muslims there, and have us all living in some London-Finally-Gone-Over-the-Edge global police state.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 02:01:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

There are no 'Muslims' in Europe (4.00 / 2)

We have Arabs, or Turks, or East Indians. Can we stop using the code words of the right?

Oruse exclusively 'Christians' to describe the inhabitants of the US - it would actually be a lot more accurate and relevant.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 02:55:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: There are no 'Muslims' in Europe (4.00 / 3)

But you know as well as I do that they're scapegoated that way rather than being seen as individual Arabs, Turks and East Indians, just as all Latinos are scapegoated as illegal Mexican immigrants rather being seen as Mexicans, Colombians, etc.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 02:59:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Indeed (4.00 / 3)

but there'sstill a twist to "Muslim". They were already scapegoated as Arabs, etc... before. But since 9/11 you add the religious war/crusade angle on top of that. And we fall in the trap that the only alternative to them is Christian, when it is anything but.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:15:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Indeed (none / 0)

Fair point.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:24:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Indeed (none / 0)

Yeah, the "Arab" thing does go back at least to the Munich Olympics, but "Muslim" bashing only became a widely enjoyed sport after 9/11.

won't wonders never cease? _ Snuffy Smith

by Gringo (stargazing camel at aoldotcom) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 04:30:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Indeed (none / 0)

Of course Arab is maybe a little too specific. Not really a broad enough net to cover all that get slandered, we have persians, turks,...."Arab" really doesn't cover the middle east all that well.

"I said, 'Wait a minute, Chester, You know I'm a peaceful man...'" Robbie Robertson

by NearlyNormal on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 04:37:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Indeed (none / 0)

That's not how it works. If the discriminators call you an Arab, that's what they see you. (Also consider Sikhs post-9/11.)

When I was in then West Germany, where racial hatred then focused on "Turks" (and refugees), I made the experience that I am a Turk if I open my mouth and don't speak German.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 04:56:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Indeed (none / 0)

same thing happens in Québec - if you can speak Québecois, you are a Québecois, even if you happen to be Chinese

if you can't, you're an Anglo even if you have a French name

if you speak French like Jérôme, you're in trouble ;-)

by zoe on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 06:16:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Indeed (none / 0)

And if you speak French with a mostly Swiss with a bit of American accent you can mutually mock each other.

by MarekNYC on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 06:18:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Indeed (none / 0)

a Swiss romand friend tells me about how he spent an entire year in Québec with everyone responding to him in English because they didn't recognize the accent he had in French!

he was very disappointed.

by zoe on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 06:26:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Indeed (none / 0)

mais lais Suiisseh n'onnt paas d'aacceneh

(ok, not really sure how to represent a Swiss accent in writing)

by MarekNYC on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 06:29:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

That worked fine ;-) (none / 0)

but maybe that's because I'm already familiar with the accent, having spent a lot of holidays as a kid in Valais.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Wed Apr 16th, 2008 at 05:17:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Remember what "PN" means? (none / 0)

if you speak French like Jérôme, you're in trouble ;-)

Surely you mean:

if you speak French, like Jérôme, you're in trouble ;-)

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 06:21:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

no, I mean if you speak French with the same accent as Jérôme, you're in trouble. they think French people are arrogant, in the same way that many Americans think people who speak English with an accent from England (except maybe Cockney), are arrogant.

Comprende?

by zoe on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 06:24:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

by the way, Jérôme, how is your accent in English? I have never heard you speak

by zoe on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 06:30:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'd say he has a fairly light french accent in english, from the couple of sentances I've heard him speak on the TV.

Interviewer: What do you believe is behind this recent increase in terrorist bombings? Helpmann: Bad sportsmanship

by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 06:56:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

that's good. A French accent is very difficult to avoid when speaking English, but a slight one adds charm and people pay more attention to what one is saying.

by zoe on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 07:02:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Remember what "PN" means? (4.00 / 1)

It's very sexy, oops I mean slight.

by Maryb2004 on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 10:37:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

aha, the truth is out!

this explains Jérôme's mainly female entourage!

by zoe on Wed Apr 16th, 2008 at 01:57:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Who's my entourage? (none / 0)

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Wed Apr 16th, 2008 at 05:21:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Who's my entourage? (none / 0)

your wife and children in reality

in the blogosphere, many DKosers and practically all Eurotribians, non?

by zoe on Wed Apr 16th, 2008 at 10:26:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Who's my entourage? (none / 1)

maybe that should be Eurotribbles ( joke for Trekkies)

by zoe on Wed Apr 16th, 2008 at 10:27:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Then all you needed to say was (none / 0)

If you speak French, then you're in trouble

"like Jérôme" provides no additional information in that sentence if you only use me as a notional Frenchman with no identifiable accent; otherwise it suggests that it is the way I speak specifically which would get one in trouble. But maybe that's what you mean?

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Wed Apr 16th, 2008 at 05:20:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Then all you needed to say was (none / 0)

language is funny isn't it?

no, I only used you as an example but meant all Frenchmen

by zoe on Wed Apr 16th, 2008 at 10:23:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]