Tuesday Open Thread

by Jerome a Paris
Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 01:20:28 PM EST


We don't condone
Berlusconi, Sarkozy and others: that goes for you too


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Even across the Atlantic folks heard of the controversy over Rev. Wright's remarks. As most of you know I'm not a big fan of radical leftism, however it is so marginal in the US that anyone who worries about it as a danger is either being disingenuous or delusional. Radical right wing views on the other hand are absolutely mainstream. A case in point is the obscene Mark Steyn, someone who is far more extreme than Wright, yet is seen as a perfectly acceptable voice. Here's his latest:

Speaking of the Pope and religious values, Daniel Pipes gave a speech in Australia last night (actually it's tonight, Monday, but it's already tomorrow over there, if you follow, so it's the morning after the speaking engagement the night before) discussing what he sees as the three options for Europe - in his words, "Muslims dominating, Muslims rejected or harmonious integration."

The first is basically the Steyn America Alone option.

The second is Ralph Peters' contrarian view: Relax, there'll never be a Muslim Europe. The old fascist tendencies will reassert themselves and there'll be blood in the streets, mass murder, etc. Or, as The Wall Street Journal's James Taranto deftly summarized this optimistic view: "The Glass Is One-Sixteenth Full." The fascist resurgence - the strong man on a horse - is appealing to a certain segment but delusional: Jean-Marie Le Pen is in his eighties; the strong man is too old to get on the horse; Continental geriatro-neo-Nazis tottering on walkers aren't going to be ethnically cleansing cities full of 19 year old Muslims.

Yup, mainstream conservatism in America - a full blown Nazi resurgence in Europe, complete with genocide is seen as a hopeful vision. I think I'm going to be sick.

by MarekNYC on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 01:32:07 PM EST
Welcome to the 1930s.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 01:40:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I thought we'd been there since the Reichstag FirePentagon Crash.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 02:58:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What is "radical leftism"?  I'd settle for "liberal-ish" in America at this point.  Hell, at this point, I'd happily vote for anyone sane enough to say, "We're not going to randomly invade countries which haven't attacked us anymore just because the Very Serious People think it's awesome."  I feel like I'm a radical leftist by American standards half the time, and that's fucking pathetic.

And it's not as though Europe is in the midst of Marxist rebellion at the moment, being ruled by Brown, Berlusconi, Sarkozy, and Merkel.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 01:45:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's sort of my point. It is completely marginal - whether you're talking about radical greens pining for their agrarian Eden or Leninists stuck in nostalgia for the dictatorial planned economy or the vaguely Ward Churchilly types - no one cares outside a few college campuses and of course the right wing noise machine.
by MarekNYC on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 01:51:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's probably being a bit generous, since the first and third groups are probably made up of the same three or four people.

What was Churchill's whole shtick, by the way?  I know he was angry about the Indians, but I never figured out what it was, exactly, that he wanted, because the coverage was just non-stop "Churchill Hates America, Freedom and Kittens" bullshit.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 01:59:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I thought that in America movements like MoveOn are already considered radically left by the right wing noise machine.

Hell, they even tell me Steve Clemons is a leftist.

Where this leaves the actual radicals, I don't know.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 02:04:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
They think Merkel and Chirac are leftists.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 02:09:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Compared to Clinton and Obama, they are.

Freiheit ist immer Freiheit der Andersdenkenden
by redstar on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 06:51:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't want to get into the situation where I'm drunkenly shouting at an American "You wouldn't know a leftist if one came up and bit you" again

Interviewer: What do you believe is behind this recent increase in terrorist bombings? Helpmann: Bad sportsmanship
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 02:10:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Again?

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 02:11:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Who hasn't?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 02:15:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
At some point continuing to read daily kos becomes nothing more than a vehicle for cultivating your anger.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 02:21:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Feel the anger flowing through you... you cannot deny the power of the Orange Side.
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 02:53:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I was thinking about a diary on this, but after your comment, what more is there to add?

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:31:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That will teach me not to snark.
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:36:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, most people view the media much like they view advertising - the propaganda and emotional manipulation affect everyone but me, because I understand how it works. So I write a 2000 word essay on the topic, everyone nods in agreement, then go right back to media induced fear and loathing. What's the point?

I suppose I could whip up a personal narrative on how I (mostly) beat this out of my own system.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:49:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Same way for many of us Americans.  I just go, look, despair and head for here or Docudharma or EENR.  Or get out the Strat and bug my office mates.

"I said, 'Wait a minute, Chester, You know I'm a peaceful man...'" Robbie Robertson
by NearlyNormal on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 04:39:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, yes, but they really love to troll for the genuine ones and suggest that mainstream libs share their views - it's their favorite one-two punch. The irony of course is that many of the radicals despise us wishy-washy libs about as much as they do the right.

Incidentally, another nice example of double standards is the treatment of Venezuela and Columbia. In both cases you have a genuinely popular and democratically elected leader with strong authoritarian tendencies. One harasses his opponents and applies heavy governmental pressure on the opposing media. The other does the same - plus has ties to death squads who kill and terrorize the opposition. Expressing sympathy for the former is a mark of dangerous radicalism and hatred for Freedom. Hailing the latter as a champion of Freedom is de rigeur among the center and the right.

by MarekNYC on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 02:20:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Don't get me started on the US media attitude to Columbia...
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 02:41:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
it's spelled ColOmbia - just because it took me a while to figure out what you were talking about

I spent quite a bit of time in that country and it was an amazing place

there were a few things that surprised me about it:

  •  I expected the place to be as macho as Poland or Greece, with the men sitting and drinking coffee and the women doing all the work but that wasn't the case at all.  Later, I learned that Colombians were once considered to be great workers in the USA, until the narcotics over-shadowed that reputation.

  •  there are guns everywhere.  Even the traffic police in Bogota carry Uzis on their belts.  Every shop has an armed guard that stands outside the shop with a rifle ready to use.  This means that on a commercial street with shops on both sides, all you see are these armed men with their rifles.

  •  there are army posts all over, sand-bagged with soldiers at the ready behind machine guns.  this can be quite disconcerting for someone who isn't used to it.

  •  people spend the whole day walking their cows in the cities because they are landless.

  •  don't ever drive in Colombia unless you have piloted in Formula 1

  •  the Colombians are the kindest, most hospitable people you will ever meet.  
by zoe on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 02:56:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
it's spelled ColOmbia - just because it took me a while to figure out what you were talking about

Considering where you live, you must have heard Kolumbien.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:03:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
zoe:
don't ever drive in Colombia unless you have piloted in Formula 1

Why?  Is no overtaking allowed?

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:12:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
overtaking is only allowed when it is near impossible to do, and only on twisted mountain roads with no guard rails and 2000 feet drops at high speed with a car with no brakes - you get the idea

lots of those roadside memorials in Colombia...

by zoe on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:16:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
ah yes - you mean like in Portugal?

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:21:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Or on a good many of the mountain roads I've driven in the US.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:27:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Irish financial directors should have no problem...

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:24:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Now you've really lost me.  Do you know any Irish financial Directors?  They don't do overtaking.  They just own the road.

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:33:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sorry, forgot the link into today's Salon>

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:35:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ah, ok.  Don't know the guy. It seems he got off on a very minor technicality - a pretty common occurrence under Irish law.  The chief requirement is to have a good lawyer.  I would have thought that under a European Union, extradition wouldn't be required in the first place -but it looks as if we have some way to go.

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:48:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
... and Columbia.

The school or the space shuttle? ;)

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:02:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Wasn't the school spelled "Columbine"?

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:04:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I was thinking of the university in New York.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:05:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The school or the space shuttle? ;)

Gotta watch out for those death squads of political correctness crushing dissent on campus.

by MarekNYC on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:07:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ha, not so far from the actual right-wing talking points.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:10:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
not really very funny, is it?

I know a story of a person who lived in a small village in Colombia and returned from studying abroad.  The local priest asked him to teach English to the parishioners, but the guy declined because he didn't want to be involved with anything with the Church (but didn't say that - he declined politely).

A few days later, he was in a shop, when the shopkeeper told him that there were people outside waiting to kill him when he got out because he had dishonoured the priest.  He slipped out the back and left, never to return.  

This war between right and left in Colombia has been going on for 50 years.  

by zoe on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:10:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
where I'm thinking that having all these leaders in place just in time for the Grand Economic Meltdown is going to discredit the right for a good long time. They'll take the blame.

Sigh... one can hope.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 01:58:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That, or they'll scapegoat Mexicans here, Muslims there, and have us all living in some London-Finally-Gone-Over-the-Edge global police state.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 02:01:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
We have Arabs, or Turks, or East Indians. Can we stop using the code words of the right?

Oruse exclusively 'Christians' to describe the inhabitants of the US - it would actually be a lot more accurate and relevant.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 02:55:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But you know as well as I do that they're scapegoated that way rather than being seen as individual Arabs, Turks and East Indians, just as all Latinos are scapegoated as illegal Mexican immigrants rather being seen as Mexicans, Colombians, etc.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 02:59:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
but there'sstill a twist to "Muslim". They were already scapegoated as Arabs, etc... before. But since 9/11 you add the religious war/crusade angle on top of that. And we fall in the trap that the only alternative to them is Christian, when it is anything but.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:15:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Fair point.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:24:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yeah, the "Arab" thing does go back at least to the Munich Olympics, but "Muslim" bashing only became a widely enjoyed sport after 9/11.

won't wonders never cease? _ Snuffy Smith
by Gringo (stargazing camel at aoldotcom) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 04:30:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Of course Arab is maybe a little too specific.  Not really a broad enough net to cover all that get slandered, we have persians, turks,...."Arab" really doesn't cover the middle east all that well.

"I said, 'Wait a minute, Chester, You know I'm a peaceful man...'" Robbie Robertson
by NearlyNormal on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 04:37:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's not how it works. If the discriminators call you an Arab, that's what they see you. (Also consider Sikhs post-9/11.)

When I was in then West Germany, where racial hatred then focused on "Turks" (and refugees), I made the experience that I am a Turk if I open my mouth and don't speak German.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 04:56:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
same thing happens in Québec - if you can speak Québecois, you are a Québecois, even if you happen to be Chinese

if you can't, you're an Anglo even if you have a French name

if you speak French like Jérôme, you're in trouble ;-)

by zoe on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 06:16:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And if you speak French with a mostly Swiss with a bit of American accent you can mutually mock each other.
by MarekNYC on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 06:18:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
a Swiss romand friend tells me about how he spent an entire year in Québec with everyone responding to him in English because they didn't recognize the accent he had in French!  

he was very disappointed.  

by zoe on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 06:26:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
mais lais Suiisseh n'onnt paas d'aacceneh

(ok, not really sure how to represent a Swiss accent in writing)

by MarekNYC on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 06:29:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
but maybe that's because I'm already familiar with the accent, having spent a lot of holidays as a kid in Valais.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Wed Apr 16th, 2008 at 05:17:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

if you speak French like Jérôme, you're in trouble ;-)

Surely you mean:


if you speak French, like Jérôme, you're in trouble ;-)


In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 06:21:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
no, I mean if you speak French with the same accent as Jérôme, you're in trouble.  they think French people are arrogant, in the same way that many Americans think people who speak English with an accent from England (except maybe Cockney), are arrogant.  

Comprende?

by zoe on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 06:24:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
by the way, Jérôme, how is your accent in English?  I have never heard you speak
by zoe on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 06:30:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'd say he has a fairly light french accent in english, from the couple of sentances I've heard him speak on the TV.

Interviewer: What do you believe is behind this recent increase in terrorist bombings? Helpmann: Bad sportsmanship
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 06:56:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
that's good.  A French accent is very difficult to avoid when speaking English, but a slight one  adds charm and people pay more attention to what one is saying.  
by zoe on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 07:02:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's very sexy, oops I mean slight.
by Maryb2004 on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 10:37:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
aha, the truth is out!

this explains Jérôme's mainly female entourage!

by zoe on Wed Apr 16th, 2008 at 01:57:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]


In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Wed Apr 16th, 2008 at 05:21:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
your wife and children in reality

in the blogosphere, many DKosers and practically all Eurotribians, non?

by zoe on Wed Apr 16th, 2008 at 10:26:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
maybe that should be Eurotribbles ( joke for Trekkies)
by zoe on Wed Apr 16th, 2008 at 10:27:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

If you speak French, then you're in trouble

"like Jérôme" provides no additional information in that sentence if you only use me as a notional Frenchman with no identifiable accent; otherwise it suggests that it is the way I speak specifically  which would get one in trouble. But maybe that's what you mean?

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Wed Apr 16th, 2008 at 05:20:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
language is funny isn't it?

no, I only used you as an example but meant all Frenchmen

by zoe on Wed Apr 16th, 2008 at 10:23:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
if you speak French with the same accent as Jérôme, you're in trouble.  they think French people are arrogant,

Indeed, they are...

"Ne te courbe que pour aimer..." René Char

by Melanchthon on Thu Apr 17th, 2008 at 03:37:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
no they won't - they'll just re-write history, the way they always do
by zoe on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 02:05:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This is hardly necessary.
Brown, who certainly has indeed some responsibility, is labour party, so the crisis may help the conservatives up in UK.
French and Italian banks had not too much losses, especially if one does not count Kerviel, who has not really something to do with the credit crisis. As well I doubt that there will be strong surprising downturns, and Italy is for sure not underregulated.
In Germany it were mainly public banks, where since many years market orientated people demand privatisation and anyhow the current economy is still better than 2003-2005, 2005 when a left orientated party chancellor asked for new elections because the country was seen in a deep crisis. This year will be a good year under recent German standards and next year is forecasted to be below average, but only a little (1998 - 2007 average in German growth was around 1.4%). Additionally it helps psychological that for the first time since quite some years we are doing better than the 'hyperdynamic supereconomy' USA. And this believe is spread among left people nearly as much as among right wingers.


by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Wed Apr 16th, 2008 at 02:37:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You are going to be sick? Consider my choices...

  • In a formerly independent daily that was bought by an industrialist close to the main right-wing party Fidesz, a far-right 'intellectual' (who used to be a founding member of the former) publishes an op-ed in which he explicitely declares himself an anti-semite. After outrage on the other side, the paper's new owner declares his paper is for a plurality of opinions; and Fidesz boss Orbán shares smiling photos with the antisemite at Fidesz's 20-year anniversary party.

  • In the main literary weekly magazine, which is also a main liberal weekly, the local top libertarian intellectual turned top neocon fan publishes an article titled "Wilders' bitter truth". On Index.hu, an also liberal-minded news site, the top libertarian pundit blames the downfall of the Hungarian liberal party on pro-tolerance sociologists, whose multicultural dreams were supposedly negated by the supposed hard facts of "Gypsy-crime" at home and Muslims in West Europe.


*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 02:06:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
http://www.eurotrib.com/story/2008/4/15/132029/224#37

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:05:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In this case, as in the linked, you mistake the exposure of far-right rhetoric for its adoption in own use.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:08:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Steyn was eventually sacked as an Irish Times Columnist, but they never did publish my many LTE's lampooning him.  My favourite was when he was "debunking" all the people opposed to the invasion of Iraq.  He gave nine resaons why they were terminally stupid.  One was their lament that the weapons of mass destruction were never found.  He said they were, - "In Libya - close enough for me".  I gently suggested in an LTE that on that logic we should invade England if we suspect WMD in Iraq.  After all it is only a few thousand miles away.

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:20:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Part V of A Journey into Sound will be a day (or two) late this week.  Co-presented by greg whitman and me, we have ze music--now we have to pull it together into diary form.

Meanwhile, on the strings of a Bozendorfer:



Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 01:35:54 PM EST
thanks for these diaries, btw.  I love them  
by zoe on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 02:05:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Plunging Neckline: Merkel 'Surprised' by Attention to Low-Cut Dress - International - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News

German Chancellor Angela Merkel wore a low-cut dress to the opening of the Oslo Opera House on Saturday. The media's eager focus 'surprised' -- though perhaps did not amuse -- her.

German Chancellor Angela Merkel did not predict that the dress she wore to the opera on Saturday -- with its very plunging neckline -- would draw as much attention as it did.

"The chancellor was a bit surprised that this evening dress caused such a splash" Thomas Steg, the government's deputy spokesman, told reporters Monday.

"That wasn't the chancellor's intention," Steg assured reporters, adding: "When there's nothing more important in the world to talk about than an evening dress, then you probably can't help it."

The dress in question was a long black dress with a blue bolero shawl. Merkel wore it Saturday evening when she joined King Harald V and Queen Sonja of Norway for the opening celebrations of Oslo's new €530 million ($840 million) Opera House.

Steg also expressed his hope that the Norwegian royal family did not feel one-upped by Merkel's dress, which admittedly "drew a lot of attention."

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 01:59:40 PM EST
I think she looked lovely.  
by zoe on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 02:06:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree with you...she looked great.

I have read all the comments about Merkel's dress this evening...it was a special occasion, and her dress was right for it, in my opinion.  Norwegians have had a dream about an opera house for 120 years...at last, here it is:

http://www.aftenposten.no/kul_und/article2362918.ece

(sorry about the bad link - videos and pictures from inside and outside if you click on the tabs.)

'Opening night at the Opera' - Aftenposten.no

The expression took on a whole new meaning in Oslo over the weekend, when the Norwegian capital's brand new Opera House officially opened in a blaze of formalities and fireworks.

(...)

Praise for the Opera House's architecture and acoustics was widespread. Paul Curran, due to take over as chief of the Norwegian Opera, had no doubts the Opera House would be a grand success.

"I've worked at the opera in Sydney, in Covent Garden and several operas in Europe, but I think this is the most beautiful Opera House I've seen," Curran said. "For me, it's a great honour to be part of the future of this building."

(...)

The opening of the Opera House has been called the biggest cultural event in Norway since the opening of the Nidaros Cathedral in Trondheim in the Middle Ages. The building, designed by Norwegian architecture firm Snøhetta, is an impressive mix of white marble and glass rising from the Oslo Fjord. Admirers say it symbolizes Norway's icebergs and vast wintry spaces.

Saturday's opening events culminated in a massive fireworks display just before midnight. People streamed back to the building on Sunday, when the Opera House reopened for tours and ticket sales.

By early afternoon, long lines had formed at the entrance and all tours of the interior were sold out. It was still possible, however, for the public to wander all around the building and to the top of its roof, which offers a new view of the fjord and eastern downtown.

(...)

by Solveig (link2ageataol.com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 06:35:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
why did it take 120 years?
by zoe on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 07:03:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Good question.  First, we had to become an independent country...that happened in 1905.  Then building the nation from scratch was priority - and, naturally, an opera house was not first on the agenda for a very poor nation. It remained a dream. Then the war and occupation (1940 -45), and the rebuilding after the war. Always more 'important' buildings and projects to concentrate on. It must be said that opera has always been seen as elitist in Norway, so politically not easy to make it priority.    

About 20 years ago, it was finally decided that now is the time to build the opera. Then it took about 12 years of political wrangling to decide where it should be located, a few years of planning and building... And here it is.  

We have of course had opera before, but in a building not quite fit for purpose.      

by Solveig (link2ageataol.com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 07:51:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Is SPIEGEL now the new BILD?...

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 02:07:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You can never engage in shallow reporting while talking about shallow reporting.

It's fool-proof!

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 02:16:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Journamilism
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 02:41:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Another great show of conspicuously avoiding shallowness through metacommentary, by DER SPIEGEL! Journalism!
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 02:10:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I read that as mammary commentary ;-)
by zoe on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:02:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
for thqt you want to read the Sun, with its daily topless models coment on the big issues in a speach bubble.

Interviewer: What do you believe is behind this recent increase in terrorist bombings? Helpmann: Bad sportsmanship
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 05:24:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
are not allowed to let anyone know they are actually women. The men express "shock" at cleavage, while slinking off to trophy wives, mistresses, or prostitutes.
by Magnifico on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 02:50:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think what she wore was quite appropriate for her age, build, position the occasion and that she was the best dressed woman there.  

She either has very good taste in clothing, or employs someone who does.  

by zoe on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 02:58:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree. Merkel looked great! Her gown was perfect for the occasion: the opening of Oslo Opera House.
by Magnifico on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:08:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Who cares? She's still an annoying right-wing politician (even if by far the least bad as right-wing politicians come).

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:10:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
she's actually a pretty damn decent rightwing politician, which is a LOT better than most of the lefty ones we have these days.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:13:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Better in what sense?

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:17:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I would have asked, what lefty ones?...

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."
by poemless on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:19:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
She has her good moments -  like stopping a new arms race by nixing the   new membership drive of NATO.

Also, she is a model for women everywhere.  Women are severely under-represented in positions of authority all over the world.  

by zoe on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:13:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Your argument would apply to Maggie Thatcher, too... I don't think that proving that a woman can be as swift a machiavellian power tactician as Kohl (because this is what Merkel proves) suffices for a good role model. I'd more wish someone like Ypsilanti would be counted as such.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:21:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't agree that that is what she proves.

I am no right winger but I was very glad that someone put a stop to this encirclement of Russia.  

by zoe on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:24:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't agree that that is what she proves.

Don't implement any significant changes, but stay on top while letting your internal enemies self-destruct -- she was a good apprentice to the Godfather. (So good that she went Brutus over him in the party finance scandal, a move that anno dacuma launched her leadership bid.)

On the Russia policy, that certainly wasn't she. It's long-standing German Staatsräson, and it took some time (and some pressure) until Merkel swung behind Schröder's line.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:32:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Schröder wasn't at the NATO Summit.  

She was.  

by zoe on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:42:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well duh, being the current incumbent to lead a German delegation continuing to act according to German Staatsräson.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:49:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You are minimizing her input in the decision making process.  Are you doing this because she is a woman?

I am sure she got a lot of pressure to be more of an Atlanticist on this question from her own party and from allies.

by zoe on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 04:01:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
How she looks - don't particularly care. Obsessions over  female politicians' clothes and in particular their breasts, not limited incidentally to public figures, bleh - right, left, or neither. Note how many articles or private discussions talk about how clothes show off women's breasts, note same with respect to how pants show off men's penises. The former are a bit more common than the latter.
by MarekNYC on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:16:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
but a lot of women take their cue from women they see as being successful, so in that regard, she is a role model for women
by zoe on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:18:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
you see, if you became Chancellor of Germany, and were invited to the opening of such an opera house, you wouldn't have to think about what it was you were going to wear, because you have seen pics of male Chancellors doing such things literally thousands of times.

Women cannot say the same and it's a whole new experience for all of womankind  every time this happens.  And, amazingly, it's 2008 of the C.E.  !

by zoe on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:23:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You are suggesting that womankind should be that much interested in what chancellors wear in the opera...

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:26:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
it does very much.

inappropriate clothing is a surefire way to erode one's image as long as people care about such things.  

by zoe on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:29:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Who cares?

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:32:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
spoken like someone who has never had his authority challenged by co-workers or subordinates.
by zoe on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:35:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So your answer is: your co-workers care.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:50:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
you are putting words in my mouth

everyone cares about such things, or most everyone because outward appearance is one way we, as human beings, use to judge others

you have seen countless studies on such things I am sure

by zoe on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 04:02:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Women have their appearance/clothing policed by co-workers (what are they making that they can afford that?  Is sexual harassment ok if she always wears short skirts?), employers (dress codes), mates (why don't you ever wear...), friends (you're not going out in that, are you?), complete strangers ("tramp"), religious authorities (dress codes), family (you're never going to find a husband dressed like that), media (is Merkel's gown too sexy?  vote now!) ...  It's not always the case.  But let's not pretend it never happens.

I suspect men face this to a lesser extent, usually with more attention paid to what their dress says about how much money they make than what it says about their sexuality.  Though I suspect there is a smidgen of that too.  

It's great to say, who cares?!  It's super that YOU don't care.  Lots of other people do, though.  We are still animals negotiating hierarchies.  We've not transcended into some otherwordly race yet...

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."

by poemless on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 04:04:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Is a long article (in fact several articles) in a political weekly that barely touches upon the issues in your paragraph countering this appearance policing, or is such care taken by the magazine only strengthening it? Because that's the issue here m-person turned on its head (congrants to her BTW) - I'm well aware of your points.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 04:50:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't understand your question, nor was I responding to either a magazine article or zoe m-person.  I was responding to you and your continued "who cares" which seemed a bit flippant and undeservedly testy.  I couldn't tell if you were frustrated by the comments or just the fact that this person was posting, to be honest.  And if someone irritates you so much, and you know they will irritate you, why not ignore them instead of responding to them with comments like "who cares?" (This, from the very person who normally demands a high standard of intellectual integrity...)  

I've had to struggle to understand much of what is happening around here lately.  Many of you seem to be in a bad mood.  I don't know if it is the poor economic outlook or what.  But a drum circle may be in order...  For valid reasons or not, lots of people are feeling barked at and alienated.

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."

by poemless on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 05:08:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
don't understand your question

That's bad because my continued questioning of who cares (to which I did get an answer) is directly connected. Either I parsed it badly, or you followed this discussion via Recent Comments. I am referring to the thread-starter SPIEGEL article on Merkel.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 05:17:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I know what you are referring to.  I said I was responding to you not the article.  

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."
by poemless on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 05:33:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hm, so how should I better parse my question?

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 05:34:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Perhaps it helps to point out that my repeated "Who cares?" was a question, not a comment?

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 05:38:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
A question I answered no less!

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."
by poemless on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 05:40:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yet, you based your judgement of me on characterising it as a flippant, testy comment. So while you don't understand what I was out for, I don't understand what's your problem with me :-)

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 05:48:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm putting words into DoDo's mouth here, but I think he's saying that women are doing a good chunk of the enforcing in order to establish their own pecking order, but this ultimately works against their own interests.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 05:22:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No, I am not saying that.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 05:35:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
heh. ok, I'm saying it.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 05:37:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm saying it too.  

No idea what DoDo's trying to say, though.

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."

by poemless on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 05:39:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
there is no name for these type of women, is there?

we should coin one.  

by zoe on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 05:51:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's not a "type."  Everyone does it to some extent or another.  It's just that some recognize and admit it and want to avoid it and some don't.

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."
by poemless on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 05:52:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There is protocol for these things.  Generally, a person is expected to dress in a way that reflects the occasion.  Unless you are a lifeguard you probably don't wear a bathing suit to work.  Because you are expected to send a message to people that you can differentiate between work and play - and you are there to work.  If you go to a funeral, you are expected to dress according to tradition out of respect for the dead, not like this.  If you go to a gala event, a tuxedo or evening gown are appropriate.  Evening gowns are not exactly meant to express androgyny.  Just the opposite.  People just are not used to seeing female heads of state, and therefore heads of state in evening gowns.  Suddenly they are reminded, gah!, it's a woman, and it feels inappropriate.  We're letting her do a man's job, she could at least pretend to be a man and cover those things, is what (some) people think to themselves.

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."
by poemless on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:44:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sure she's a potential role model, but that has nothing to do with what clothes she wears.
by MarekNYC on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 03:25:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]