European Tribune - Community, Politics & Progress.

Being Ready With Constructive Alternatives

by marco
Wed Apr 30th, 2008 at 02:32:31 AM EST

(originally written as a comment in response to the article Fran posted on Britain's energy problems in this morning's Salon).

a very obvious idea, and i am sure it has been considered already in one of the creative jam sessions about how to get our message out more, making EuroTrib a virtual think tank, etc., but just in case...

can we create a section on this site which contains "position papers" on various issues that we often discuss, in language, style and over-all presentation that is aimed at:

quickly and crisply informing and persuading the general public about our points of view
getting ranked highly on Google

the idea is to have a well-articulated, well-argued, and readily applicable set of "positions" or "views" or "proposals" on various issues that people can find easily online and "seize" if and when the proverbial doo-doo hits the fan with respect to energy, healthcare, global warming, unemployment, etc.

i believe there are enough shared values and common ground to find some basic positions (if that is the right word) that can be agreed upon by almost everyone here (e.g. rampant energy market deregulation is not good, sustainable energy is good, torture is not good, increased financial regulation is essential), even if there is a high level of disagreement on many particular topics (nuclear energy is good/necessary, charities are good, eating meat hurts the environment, etc.)

we don't necessarily have to have a single article on a given topic -- we could have alternative or even conflicting articles -- but preferably there would be one main article, since the idea is to send out as coherent, salient, gripping and easily digestible a message out, with dissenting and alternative views also provided, but indicated as not being the "main position", so as to minimize confusion.

these articles should be written for a very wide audience, people who do not necessarily have the time to study or exposure to ideas that are neglected and/or regularly denigrated in the mainstream press -- or, if they are exposed to these ideas, are conditioned to reject them reflexively.

i am not sure exactly how Google works, but i believe having such papers could increase the frequency and rankings at which EuroTrib appears in Google search results by

concentrating a lot of good content (one of the main criteria of Google's ranking algorithm) in well organized, targeted pages and sections
getting more people to link to and bookmark pages on this site as information resources (the number of people linking to a page is the most important criterion for Google's page ranking algorithm)

the larger goal, of course, is to get our viewpoints to a much wider audience, and ultimately, to get our viewpoints if not widely accepted, then at least widely discussed seriously in the mainstream media.

recently, pessimistic predictions made here over the past few years have started to come true, based on policies that have been criticized here on EuroTrib (e.g. soaring oil prices, the financial meltdown, now gas shortages in the UK). unfortunately, it seems that more pessimistic predictions may continue to come true.

if and when they do, people will get more and more freaked out, confused, and angry. but losing faith in their previously unshakable convictions (e.g. Bush is a great president), they will start to doubt, then revise, reject these mistaken notions (as demonstrated in Bush's current historically abysmal poll ratings).

however, at that point, when they have lost faith in those old ideas, they need to be provided with more sound, more reality-based alternatives, that they can latch onto and use to individually and collectively start climbing out of these crises.

i think EuroTrib has an awesome and pretty unique potential for providing these constructive alternatives. but we need to make them available yesterday, and i mean in a clear, understandable manner suitable for people with a lot of angst, but relatively little time and attention bandwidth. we have the ability to create pages that can climb high on search engine rankings and thus get our word across more quickly and widely. i am not saying we should standardize on or officialize some ideological party line or lines, but we somehow find a way to focus on a range of key issues that we can find a common ground on, articulate and argue for a wide audience, and shine a light on as dry land to swim when people are struggling to keep themselves afloat.

this is probably old ground that has been covered more than once before, but even so, i thought it would be worth treading again in case it reveals previously unexplored paths or territory. (please point me to previous discussions if the matter has been already discussed/resolved.)

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Being Ready With Constructive Alternatives | 66 comments (66 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: Being Ready With Constructive Alternatives (4.00 / 6)

I attempted something similar in my recent diary - ET's 20 Big Ideas but that sort of conversation often seems to die a quick death. ET is quite a diverse community and there is a lot of resistance
to being typecast in any way, and possibly not a lot of widespread agreement beyond the sort of very broad and bland sentiments you gave as examples of the prevailing consensus here.

Possibly the best we have done - so far, is Migeru's grouping of underlying and constant themes into "Occasional series" although you would want to be seriously interested in a particular topic to read through an entire series.

My view is that ET should consider appointing an assistant editor for each more important theme, and that person's primary responsibility would be to write the sort of introductory/editorial/summary articles outlining the facts and debates here on each theme for a much wider audience - particularly for those coming from a more mainstream context and who don't have the time or conceptual background to read through a lot more detailed analysis in the individual diaries - which could be referenced as links in the "Editorial Diary".

Ideally that is what the front page of ET should be for - the broader more editorial pieces with lots of links to individual diaries acting as a lead in to other content on the site. In my view - probably not widely shared - the design of the ET front page is all wrong - not only is it visually all wrong and unattractive, but the content belongs on the inside pages not on the front page of an organ that wants to be taken seriously.

I rarely go to the front page at all - it seems to me to be dedicated to ET insiders rather than to the wider audience a front page should be dedicated to - the sort of people who might find us through a google search, and who need to be enticed to stay with engaging, headline and well presented content - leading in to more detail on Diary or "social and personal" discussion pages inside.

But I've kind of given up on trying to encourage this sort of "structural" discussion on where ET should be going - views are simply too diverse - and with a lot of resistance to any kind of more structured approach to what we are trying to do. If you want to campaign on a particular topic, you probably have to go to a more specialised website. All of which is not a criticism of ET - it reflects the diversity of its membership.

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Wed Apr 30th, 2008 at 08:08:59 AM EST

ET's 20 Big Ideas, ET Diaries, ET Think Tank (none / 1)

Frank Schnittger:

I attempted something similar in my recent diary - ET's 20 Big Ideas

Thanks for reminding me of that diary. I know that list was preliminary, but that was very much what I had in mind.

And I know there have several other diaries like that one. A lot of work has been done already. The Debates section and Migeru's Occasional Series. Also, rg's ET Diaries, Migeru's Bootstrapping the ET think tank, and Paul Spencer's ET Think Tank draft summary - Draft # 2, and no doubt I am leaving out many other efforts. And there already have some quasi "position papers", such as the Energize America and the EU Energy Green Paper Consultation response that afew led.

Okay, I'd better read through these again first.

(I just noticed afew's comment about the agriculture position paper(s) and list of diaries.)

A language is a dialect with an army and navy.

by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Wed Apr 30th, 2008 at 09:01:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ET's 20 Big Ideas, ET Diaries, ET Think Tank (4.00 / 3)

Don't forget my Redoing ET's front page.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Apr 30th, 2008 at 09:04:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Being Ready With Constructive (4.00 / 2)

what you ahve in mind for the front-page has been discussed here but with the idea that there should be a second home-page...in this way you would have our social site (as always) and another more like "experts visitors wellcomed, look how serious we are" webpage. this was impossible until now for sever issues.. Thanks to colman we may have the possibility to have it (if we want and people have time) in the near future.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Wed Apr 30th, 2008 at 12:57:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Being Ready With Constructive (4.00 / 5)

Here are some ideas Colman and I were kicking about today regarding "ET 2.0":

ET is a blog, that means it's a FIFO or a collection of FIFOs. We don't want to lose that format.
We would integrate the blog with MediaWiki - ETpedia would contain the "position papers".
Diaries should be tagged and the blog should display a FIFO and a tag cloud
Clicking on a tag would present the FIFO of articles carrying that tag, as well as the ETpedia article whose name matches the tag, and the tag cloud of the articles containing the selected tag.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Apr 30th, 2008 at 06:43:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Being Ready With Constructive (4.00 / 2)

Using MediaWiki would be quite a step change - transforming ET from a largely transient newspaper like article stream to a semi-permanent if updatable knowledge database. The tag cloud should make it much more searchable and allow different members to specialise in different areas more - making it less of a one size fits all environment. Wikipedia is getting quite a reputation as a reasonably reliable, very comprehensive, and yet accessible knowledge base which allows people to get a handle on a topic very quickly. How do you want to position ETpedia relative to that space?

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Wed Apr 30th, 2008 at 07:21:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Complementing the Diaries with ETPedia (4.00 / 2)

transforming ET from a largely transient newspaper like article stream to a semi-permanent if updatable knowledge database.

True, but I would just modify that statement a little bit to

"supplementing ET as a largely transient newspaper like article stream with a semi-permanent if updatable knowledge database"

based on Migeru's points that

ET is a blog, that means it's a FIFO or a collection of FIFOs. We don't want to lose that format.
We would integrate the blog with MediaWiki - ETpedia would contain the "position papers".

You see, I've already trying to wiki-edit your comment! (^_^)

A language is a dialect with an army and navy.

by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Wed Apr 30th, 2008 at 09:04:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Being Ready With Constructive (4.00 / 2)

Wikipedia is getting quite a reputation as a reasonably reliable, very comprehensive, and yet accessible knowledge base which allows people to get a handle on a topic very quickly. How do you want to position ETpedia relative to that space?

I'm not sure I understand the question. MediaWiki is used by a whole lot of communities to maintain their knowledge base and that's what we'd do. We're not trying to position ourselves in the online encyclopedia space.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 1st, 2008 at 03:24:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Being Ready With Constructive (4.00 / 5)

In the media world, no one cares how the content is organised as long as it's accessible and actively promoted.

We can certainly have an internal Wiki, but realistically Wikis aren't considered 'serious' by the MSM. That could well be their loss, but the MSM are still the main medium for getting points into the mainstream, and we need to follow their format if we want to - actually get points into the mainstream.

We need a press presence. We need a point of contact for press people, and we need to send out regular press releases. We may also need a serious website. I don't think a Wiki will do the job, because it's not the right tool for the job at hand - which is media impact, not information aggregation. Something like Comment is Free with an ET twist might.

All of this may be window dressing and fluff as far as the content goes. But in terms of prescience and analysis we have some of the best content in the blogosphere, and a lot of it is being wasted because more people aren't seeing it.

On average we seem to be running about two to five years ahead of Conventional Wisdom. If we want to start changing all of Teh Stupid that makes up conventional wisdom we need to be much more active about crafting a solid media presence and making sure that talking points are pushed regularly znd reliably into national and international debate.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu May 1st, 2008 at 10:23:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

The European Tribune in Google News (none / 1)

Everyone probably knows this, but on news.google.com, you can limit searches to news sites by adding site:[NEWS SITE DOMAIN NAME].COM.

For example, searching on

olympic torch relay site:cnn.com

will only pull up articles from CNN's website on that topic.

It turns out that not just new publications and organizations come up in Google news, but "think tanks" like The New America Foundation and the The Century Foundation also come up on Google News searches, while others like The Economic Policy Institute and The Progressive Policy Institute do not come up at all.

It would be interesting to learn what differentiates these, and to see if we can get EuroTrib.com to come up on Google News searches as well.

A language is a dialect with an army and navy.

by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Thu May 1st, 2008 at 01:38:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

MediaWiki: auto-edit "position papers" (none / 0)

Migeru:

Here are some ideas Colman and I were kicking about today regarding "ET 2.0":

I think this is a great proposal.

I understand the basic concept of using MediaWiki, but I have a question regarding how it has been used in practice (other than Wikipedia, and only very superficially there).

If we use MediaWiki, do you think we can almost let the revision and update process for "position papers" be run on automatic? In other words, with MediaWiki, is it likely that we won't even have to task individuals or teams explicitly to draft and polish these articles? In practice, could we rely on those passionate and knowledgeable enough about the topics concerned to "get it right", with only intermittent and minor editorial and/or community intervention/judgement calls?

Personally, I am very optimistic about this possibility, and confident that it will be very successful. But this is just based on a gut feel (in turn based on what I know about EuroTrib folks). However, I was curious if there is data out there about MediaWiki implementations that would reality-check such optimism.

(I am aware that Wikipedia employs personnel -- volunteers, too? -- to handle "wiki-vandalism" and to make other editor level decisions. But since the group of writer-editors here would not only [presumably] all be registered as EuroTrib members, but would be far smaller in number, that sort of editorial overhead should be far far less, and utterly manageable. Hopeless optimism again?)

(For the record, I don't like the term "position paper", but it's the only one that comes to mind so far that fits the bill.)

A language is a dialect with an army and navy.

by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Wed Apr 30th, 2008 at 09:19:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MediaWiki: auto-edit position papers (4.00 / 2)

If we use MediaWiki, do you think we can almost let the revision and update process for "position papers" be run on automatic? In other words, with MediaWiki, is it likely that we won't even have to task individuals or teams explicitly to draft and polish these articles? In practice, could we rely on those passionate and knowledgeable enough about the topics concerned to "get it right", with only intermittent and minor editorial and/or community intervention/judgement calls?

That's exactly the point. If you have an active wiki you don't need to appoint anyone. Vandalism is self-correcting, too, especially if we integrate the blog recent comments with the wiki recent edits.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 1st, 2008 at 03:28:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MediaWiki: auto-edit position papers (none / 1)

I rather assume that people are going to self-appoint from project to project: I'm not entirely sure how ET would go about appointing people to do anything!

I'd envisage locked "final" versions of documents in some cases, together with supporting documentation and so on.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu May 1st, 2008 at 03:44:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MediaWiki: auto-edit position papers (none / 1)

All sounds good - especially if it works! I'm not aware of the experience of either Wikipedia or other mediawiki implementations and the operational issues they have to overcome - other than apparent attempts to edit out any comments/articles which might be deemed critical of the security policy of certain states - the price you pay for becoming as important and influential as Wikipedia has become. I suppose I'm just looking ahead to a time when ETmedia might become a perceived influential player in the EU politics/policy space and thus become vulnerable to hostile attacks. The notion of using mediawiki as a participative self-empowering community knowledge management tool really excites me.

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Thu May 1st, 2008 at 05:29:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MediaWiki: auto-edit position papers (none / 1)

The notion of using mediawiki as a participative self-empowering community knowledge management tool really excites me.

Isn't that what MediaWiki was written for in the first place?

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 1st, 2008 at 06:09:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MediaWiki: auto-edit position papers (none / 0)

Migeru:

Isn't that what MediaWiki was written for in the first place?

You tell me - this is mostly new territory for me.

However I'm still struggling with how we would present ETmedia to a wider audience. We're not an encyclopedia, we're not a political or campaigning organisation although we do do politics and sometimes campaign, we strive to be evidence and fact based but from a "progressive" perspective, we're not an on-line newspaper or current affairs e-zine, we're not just a blog or a group of nerds with no friends and lots of time to spend on-line. So what are we -in simple terms that simple journalists can understand and communicate - and why should they give any especial importance to what we have to day?

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Thu May 1st, 2008 at 10:55:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MediaWiki: auto-edit position papers (none / 0)

We're a progressive Eropean expert community blog, at least that's what I'd say, but people don't like.

Also, we're the people we have been waiting for.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 1st, 2008 at 01:14:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MediaWiki: auto-edit position papers (none / 0)

Migeru:

we're the people we have been waiting for.

Maybe we've been waiting for us, but are the MSM? This is about enticing them to come to us, and claiming to be experts or the coming people may not be enough to do so

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Thu May 1st, 2008 at 01:50:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MediaWiki: auto-edit position papers (none / 0)

The MSM are sooo 20th Century.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 1st, 2008 at 02:06:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MediaWiki: auto-edit position papers (none / 0)

ok - so how do you propose to greatly expand our direct readership/membership - especially if others are starting to steal our name?

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Thu May 1st, 2008 at 02:20:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MediaWiki: auto-edit position papers (none / 0)

Who is starting to steal our name?

And if what we want is to change the conventional wisdom, is greatly increasing the number of our readership/membership the primary concern? It's just as effective to be read by a smaller number of influential people (measured by how many people read them).

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 1st, 2008 at 03:16:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MediaWiki: auto-edit position papers (none / 0)

see comment below
Frank Schnittger:

I know this sounds horribly commercial, but you do have an established brand which you are not leveraging very much. I see someone else has now taken up the Eurotribune.eu and .net domains and styles themselves as "The European Tribune: Independent Journal - and is sometimes ranked above Eurotrib in google rankings. You stand still in this game, and you could lose prominence very quickly.

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Thu May 1st, 2008 at 03:34:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MediaWiki: auto-edit position papers (none / 0)

Eurotribune predates Eurotrib, I think. They're a group of Spanish academics and journalists. I did some research on them a while ago. Note that they have funding from some sort of EU media programme.

How many of the Eurotrib.* domains do we not own?

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 1st, 2008 at 03:46:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MediaWiki: auto-edit position papers (none / 0)

Migeru:

Note that they have funding from some sort of EU media programme.

Any reason why we can't apply for similar support, especially as we are far more pan european in membership and with a significant input/influence beyond yurp?

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Thu May 1st, 2008 at 04:02:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MediaWiki: auto-edit position papers (none / 1)

No reason at all. I'll get my sister on the case.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 1st, 2008 at 04:53:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

ET 2.0 (4.00 / 2)

i don't mean this at all as a prod, but just to find out:

is development on ET 2.0 already in process, or are there decisions still pending? i guess i am just curious if the incorporation of the MediaWiki thing is already something to be expected, or something that still needs to be greenlighted and that may or may not actually happen.

from Migeru's phrase "kicking about", i am guessing everything is still very much up in the air, but i just wanted to find out for sure.

A language is a dialect with an army and navy.

by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Thu May 1st, 2008 at 12:25:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ET 2.0 (4.00 / 2)

Going to happen.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu May 1st, 2008 at 12:25:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ET 2.0 (4.00 / 2)

Lots of decisions still pending. Need a prototype before we can make useful decisions. Working towards prototype.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu May 1st, 2008 at 12:30:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

EuroTribWiki (4.00 / 2)

I just popped over to EuroTribWiki for the first time in a very long while.

Two things are immediately clear:

in addition to the diaries referenced up-thread, there has been a lot of work done already not only to convert EuroTrib diary material into wikiable pages, but also to organize this material to highlight critical issues in a focused and structured manner.
there has been some serious vandalism done on pretty much every page there, by the looks of it, auto-generated by some spam software.

On that first point, I am not sure whether it is necessary to have a directory structure as a sort of map of the wiki topics, although if done well, it clearly could be enormously helpful.

Related to that, I am assuming that Wikipedia's Contents and List of Topics are completely manually created (i.e. not dynamically/programmatically generated), is that correct?

A language is a dialect with an army and navy.

by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Thu May 1st, 2008 at 12:45:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: EuroTribWiki (4.00 / 2)

Part of the point of integration is to link the wiki to ET accounts, which will make random vandalism harder.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu May 1st, 2008 at 12:48:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: MediaWiki: auto-edit position papers (none / 1)

Maybe if we use mediawiki, we can copy wikipedia's blacklist...

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Thu May 1st, 2008 at 07:25:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

You're forgetting something (4.00 / 2)

I attempted something similar in my recent diary - ET's 20 Big Ideas but that sort of conversation often seems to die a quick death. ET is quite a diverse community and there is a lot of resistance to being typecast in any way, and possibly not a lot of widespread agreement beyond the sort of very broad and bland sentiments you gave as examples of the prevailing consensus here.

It's not resistance, it's usually lack of time. Many of us have full time jobs and families that do not let us concentrate fully on these potential new activities.

My view is that ET should consider appointing an assistant editor for each more important theme, and that person's primary responsibility would be to write the sort of introductory/editorial/summary articles outlining the facts and debates here on each theme for a much wider audience - particularly for those coming from a more mainstream context and who don't have the time or conceptual background to read through a lot more detailed analysis in the individual diaries - which could be referenced as links in the "Editorial Diary".

How much time and/or money are you willing to commit to this? This is a serious question.

I rarely go to the front page at all - it seems to me to be dedicated to ET insiders rather than to the wider audience a front page should be dedicated to -

Given that most of my articles, and many of the substantial posts started by the other frontpagers are on the front page, I'm not sure how to take this, quite frankly.

But I've kind of given up on trying to encourage this sort of "structural" discussion on where ET should be going - views are simply too diverse - and with a lot of resistance to any kind of more structured approach to what we are trying to do.

Again, do not blame malice or conscious decisions for what is usually lack of time. Having gone through the process of Energize America, and running this site day in and day out, I must say that those that criticize things by saying "why don't you do this and that" likely underestimate the personal investment required to make this happen.

-- --

I'd love to have full time staff for ET to do the activities it has the potential to. I cannot ask people to spend more time than they already volunteer without some other perspective or compensation. I'm thinking about funding this to some extent. I cannot do this on my own, and don't have the time right now to make it happen (ie define the need, the role, the way to structure it and fund it).

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Thu May 1st, 2008 at 07:27:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You're forgetting something (4.00 / 3)

I think looking for funding might not be a bad idea. There are many, many options beyond ad sales.

I think at some point this has to stop being an amateur effort. You can have a collaborative grad school amateur ethic, or you can have media effectiveness. I'm not convinced that you can have both - at least not beyond a certain point.

It's a waste of time putting together the best content in the world if hardly anyone reads it. Putting it in a Wiki will do very little to increase the readership, because Wikis are not media.

Since this is a pro-Euro blog it's possible someone, somewhere in Brussels would be willing to fund it. There are certainly less interesting and less worthy media projects having money thrown at them.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu May 1st, 2008 at 10:33:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You're forgetting something (none / 0)

i think the problem is the rate of news hurtling ever faster at us, we would be already on to the next developments before a book would ever get published.

it's the nature of blogging, i suspect.

arguments sharpen here, opinions modify and mature, but the subjects we deem worthy of special attention, meriting a whole screed, have already been dealt with more thoroughly elsewhere.

i'm beginning to think pushing jerome into politics might be swifter than try to propel political change through razor commentary, lol!

ET has already surprised us in its short life...if it feels like it's chomping at the bit to actually become a player, like dkos, perhaps it's because we sense a need for that in europe, and here has been a great place to start.

give it another few years, and , as tbg notes, events continue to force dialogue into new channels, and we'll see ET as the gestatory force it is, reaching out further and smarter till it achieves liftoff, or terminal velocity...

Peace is not the absence of war -- peace is the absence of fear. Ursula Franklin

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Thu May 1st, 2008 at 11:42:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

When journalists research article topics (none / 1)

do they use Google much?

ThatBritGuy:

It's a waste of time putting together the best content in the world if hardly anyone reads it. Putting it in a Wiki will do very little to increase the readership, because Wikis are not media.

I disagree.

How many times does the Wikipedia article for a topic come up as #1 on Google search results (or at least #2 or #3)?

I don't know how journalists and media editors go about doing there work, but if they use Google to research topics, we want EuroTrib -- either diaries or/and wiki articles -- to come up within the top 3 search results.

For example, suppose someone googles "gas shortages UK Europe prices", why shouldn't our "best stuff" relevant to that topic come up among the top three search results they see?

And if EuroTrib articles more and more frequently come up under journalistic eyeballs, there's more and more likelihood that journalists will read, get informed by, consider, and eventually grow sympathetic to the positions in those articles.

And that is only the direct route to get to the MSM (i.e. by getting getting read by journalists/columnists/editors themselves). There would obviously also be millions of curious and concerned general readers (and not so general readers with disproportionate influence on journalists) encountering EuroTrib material on Google searches about urgent current events and issues. If by reading EuroTrib material they become more informed, they will be more likely to call bull shit on the MSM when it shovels it out.

A language is a dialect with an army and navy.

by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Thu May 1st, 2008 at 01:11:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

HTML page titles should be diary titles (none / 1)

Just out of curiosity, I punched

gas shortages UK Europe prices

into Google to see if any Wikipedia article came up.

The first 10 results were:

BBC NEWS | Business | Gas shortage sends prices soaring
Fuel shortage fear sweeps UK as oil plant strike looms - Europe ... [Independent.ie]
Fear of gas shortage after Ukraine rejects huge price rise | World ... [The Guardian]
Gas shortages & rising prices [Tutor2U]
Alexander's Gas & Oil Connections - Pipeline shortages boost ...
European Tribune - Community, Politics & Progress.
Gas shortages may affect UK fine chemical industry [in-Pharma technologist.com]
Emergency fuel tankers set sail from Europe - Telegraph
1973 oil crisis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Emergency Fuel Tankers Set Sail From Europe (To UK) [Free Republic]

A few things to notice:

A Wikipedia article came up as the 9th result.
Jérôme's EuroTrib diary from March 14, 2006 came up as the 6th result.
That EuroTrib diary was the only search result among all ten on that first page that was not labeled with the article title (i.e. "Countdown to 100$ oil (22) - gas shortages in the UK - 230$/boe"), but with the name of the website (i.e. "European Tribune - Community, Politics & Progress")

As for points 1 and 2, that is great -- Jérôme beat Wikipedia, and proves the point (no doubt provable in many other cases) that EuroTrib material can contend with the best of the Internet on issues that matter.

As for point 3, it's true that Jérôme's diary title does come up in the smaller-fonted description text below the search result link. However, if you do the search yourself, you may agree with me that the link would be far more attention-grabbing and interesting if the link itself were labeled with the diary title, rather than just "European Tribune", which does not reveal anything about the contents of the page linked to.

Is it possible to configure Scoop to generate HTML so that the HTML page title uses the title of the diary?

Also, if and when "position papers" get produced, this case shows the importance of choosing titles for these texts that are as descriptive and relevant as possible (assuming that they can be used as their HTML page title).

A language is a dialect with an army and navy.

by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Thu May 1st, 2008 at 02:20:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: HTML page titles should be diary titles (none / 1)

Silly me. I just realized that diary titles already are the HTML page titles. (I guess the "Community, Politics & Progress" in the page title was removed after Jerome published that diary?)

Sorry for the pointless comment (well, pointless aside from the high rankings that EuroTrib diaries already get.)

A language is a dialect with an army and navy.

by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Thu May 1st, 2008 at 02:25:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: HTML page titles should be diary titles (none / 1)

Not pointless at all. The issue of how we reach a wider audience is crucial to the development of ET

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Thu May 1st, 2008 at 02:34:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

How did the the Brussels correspondent of the FT (none / 0)

find out about Stop Blair!?

By 5.00 pm, through phone calls and SMS from Jérôme, we learn that the Brussels correspondent of the Financial Times has heard about the petition and is planning to publish something about it on the FT website on Tuesday morning.
Genesis of a self-organised collaborative European petition

A language is a dialect with an army and navy.

by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Thu May 1st, 2008 at 01:16:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You're forgetting something (4.00 / 2)

Jerome, I absolutely agree that time (the lack of it, the need for it) is the problem. On a much smaller, less focused and less efficient scale than ET, I started an internet project in 2003 called Bloggers Parliament. It's described here

Here's the graphic I did to sum it up:

It started off very well, quite a lot of people joined and we got some good feedback etc. However, I gradually realised that to make the project become more than words, it would have to be a full-time job and neither I or the other participants were able to commit that much time, attention and expense to it, as well as to carry on with our normal lives and work. So, I eventually bowed out and handed over the baby to others to look after but it gradually dissolved.

I think that ET is far more realistic and a much more effective platform for constructive ideas.

Blaugustine

by Augustinatalie (endapressNOTblueyonderNOTcoNOTuk) on Thu May 1st, 2008 at 11:05:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You're forgetting something (none / 0)

Jerome a Paris:

Given that most of my articles, and many of the substantial posts started by the other frontpagers are on the front page, I'm not sure how to take this, quite frankly.

Well not personally, anyway. I'm not in the business of criticising people who give of their time on a voluntary basis. They usually have 10 people telling them what to do for every one person actually willing to help.

The whole point of having some structure and organisation is to create a more enjoyable, less frustrating, and more productive output for any given level of effort for all concerned. If it doesn't achieve that, then don't do it. I'm not seeing a lack of enthusiasm or effort, but I'm not sure either whether people are getting as much out of their experience and effort as they might.

Much of the stuff written here deserves a wider audience. Many of the members are activists who want to be more effective in their social engagement and use of time. I've been drifting away and looking for more effective forms of engagement elsewhere because we seem to be writing for a very small audience of the largely converted here in any case. I would be prepared to give more time and make a financial contribution if I felt we were going somewhere. You probably have a lot of latent goodwill which is not being tapped into.

So I'm not 100% convinced of the time argument - some of it may be addressed through better organisation and involvement of people who do have time/resources to give. I also agree with TBG's comment below that funding from EU/national sources should be possible give the huge budgets devoted to EU communications - provided we can all be satisfied that any such funding wouldn't influence or compromise our independence in any way.

I know this sounds horribly commercial, but you do have an established brand which you are not leveraging very much. I see someone else has now taken up the Eurotribune.eu and .net domains and styles themselves as "The European Tribune: Independent Journal - and is sometimes ranked above Eurotrib in google rankings. You stand still in this game, and you could lose prominence very quickly.

But it's your game, and up to you to decide what you want to do with it. You've achieved an awful lot already - the question is where do you want to take it from here - if anywhere in particular. My sense is that we need to move on - but if that sense isn't shared then I may have to move on on my own. This is NOT a criticism - sometimes people going their separate ways is the best for all concerned, and either way I wish you the very best.

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Thu May 1st, 2008 at 11:38:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Being Ready With Constructive Alternatives (4.00 / 4)

ATinNM suggested those of us who are interested in agriculture should start preparing (a) position paper(s), and I'm (slowly, I know) preparing for that. I'll put up a Table of Contents - Agriculture diary in the Occasional Series box (this is taking time because we haven't listed past diaries on agriculture before), and I'm getting a diary ready for the Debates box. We'll take it from there.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Apr 30th, 2008 at 08:52:45 AM EST

Re: Being Ready With Constructive Alternatives (4.00 / 4)

There are two issues here.
the first one is having the time.. making a summary of a diary/series of takes a lot of time... really a lot of time...our postion paper will be like a summary which can be edited by all the comunity.. the problem is who does the first draft?.. it takes time.

beides that, there is also the idea that our ideas and positionns are already in the diaries, and nothing is better than that, becasue you can see the different views of different people (this goes along the lines of FS who says that people here might not like to think himself as part of the a position paper).

Still, I think is wort a try, we can reach a wider audience specially once we have systematic media outreach soon (once in the new server and everything fixed) but the first problem is a real one... the second one can be managed if the draft is very well written and the different views and opinions are indicated (if you are a very good writer you can sum up a topic, explan everything we agree on and everything we disagree on and sound more knowledgable in the process.. but this takes even more time).

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Wed Apr 30th, 2008 at 11:20:33 AM EST

Re: Being Ready With Constructive Alternatives (4.00 / 9)

i hear you, and i think you're right on all counts, marco.

my goal is to create an eco-home, with yurt hospitality on the land, and invite people to come and visit here in italy, to study country living, permaculture, coppicing, greenwood building, and alternative technology for sustainable living.

i've had solar/wood water heating for 7 years, and am a week away from 2.8kw pv panels getting hooked up to the grid, imsh'allah.

presently designing a solarium addon for winter energy savings, and changing from septic tank to composting toilet and greywater separation later in the year.

building decks for the yurts, clearing land etc, will take another few months, so a provisional opening time will be for the summer season 2009.

here at ET there are some mighty minds to help with the master plan for global meme-seeding, here's hoping my contribution will be in this place, where i hope to see many people feel the difference that comes from changing the hardware to which we owe so much of our creature comfort, and creating tighter loops in our daily exchange of reciprocity with the land.

i've really enjoyed your contributions to ET, and this diary especially, thanks.

Peace is not the absence of war -- peace is the absence of fear. Ursula Franklin

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Wed Apr 30th, 2008 at 11:34:12 AM EST

Re: Being Ready With Constructive Alternatives (none / 1)

i will gladly accept your invitation -- and take notes on how you are building such a home.

you're not in Liguria, by any chance?

A language is a dialect with an army and navy.

by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Wed Apr 30th, 2008 at 11:44:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Being Ready With Constructive Alternatives (4.00 / 2)

i look forward to it.

i'm in umbria, between citta di castello and umbertide.

retrofitting an old chestnut-pickers' cottage, and reclaiming a farm that had been abandoned for 50 years, in the Apennine foothills.

Peace is not the absence of war -- peace is the absence of fear. Ursula Franklin

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Wed Apr 30th, 2008 at 12:00:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Being Ready With Constructive Alternatives (none / 1)

Want any help ? Work for food / beer / wine ?

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Apr 30th, 2008 at 12:39:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Being Ready With Constructive Alternatives (none / 1)

Helen:

Work for food / beer / wine ?

Do you think he can afford your beer and wine rates...? ;-)

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Wed Apr 30th, 2008 at 01:06:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Being Ready With Constructive Alternatives (4.00 / 4)

I was hoping nobody would comment on that

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Apr 30th, 2008 at 02:07:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

in the Apennine foothills (none / 0)

if i can't land a job here by june, there's a girl in Milano i hope to go see in july. how are summers in Umbria?

A language is a dialect with an army and navy.

by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Wed Apr 30th, 2008 at 09:36:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: in the Apennine foothills (4.00 / 2)

hot...and no coastline, but because of that, there is hardly any car traffic, unless you go look for it!

mostly it means lying low through the afternoons, or it's like being sledgehammered.

it's nice to go down to lake trasimeno, only 40 mins away, it's watery enough to reframe your day.

the nights are fantastic, warm and starry, and the early mornings and evenings are delicious.

between 2 and 6pm....take cover...it can go up to 40C in the shade!

gives new meaning to the word chill...

word is we're going to have a less solar summer than usual, weather rumour being often right around here in my experience.

Peace is not the absence of war -- peace is the absence of fear. Ursula Franklin

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Wed Apr 30th, 2008 at 10:26:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Being Ready With Constructive Alternatives (none / 1)

Brilliant, melo.

JFDI

(JDI = "Just Do It")

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Wed Apr 30th, 2008 at 01:11:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Being Ready With Constructive Alternatives (none / 1)

Sounds great what you are creating, melo. I had to look up the yurts and think they are a wonderful idea. Hope there will be pictures. :-)

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Apr 30th, 2008 at 10:12:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Being Ready With Constructive Alternatives (none / 1)

yup, i'm surfing a lot in yurtland, the closest i've found where they're made is france, more choice from england, the prices are very high, so i'm going to keep searching while i get all the other stuff ready.

they are incredible spaces, i have some friends who bought a ruin, and live in their yurt next to it.

they go away in the winter though!

Peace is not the absence of war -- peace is the absence of fear. Ursula Franklin

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Wed Apr 30th, 2008 at 10:19:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Being Ready With Constructive Alternatives (none / 1)

Sounds brilliant, melo. I have family in Italy and would certainly be able to visit you eventually.
Can you post some pics of work in progress?

Blaugustine

by Augustinatalie (endapressNOTblueyonderNOTcoNOTuk) on Wed Apr 30th, 2008 at 11:40:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Being Ready With Constructive Alternatives (none / 1)

certainly, natalie.
whereabouts is your family?

here are the pv panels up in place

Peace is not the absence of war -- peace is the absence of fear. Ursula Franklin

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Thu May 1st, 2008 at 07:32:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Being Ready With Constructive Alternatives (none / 1)

Looks amazing. Are the panels hugely expensive to buy and install?
My relatives are in Rome. I lived in Florence for a year and in Rome as well, quite a while ago. Am fluent in Italian.

Blaugustine

by Augustinatalie (endapressNOTblueyonderNOTcoNOTuk) on Thu May 1st, 2008 at 09:15:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Being Ready With Constructive Alternatives (none / 0)

relative to my electric bill, they are cheap.

2.8kw just shy of €20,000.

psychologically, priceless...

Peace is not the absence of war -- peace is the absence of fear. Ursula Franklin

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Thu May 1st, 2008 at 01:24:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Being Ready With Constructive Alternatives (none / 1)

How big is your electric bill?! How long a pay-off are you looking at?

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu May 1st, 2008 at 01:26:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Being Ready With Constructive Alternatives (4.00 / 2)

by being religious about turning off appliances and cutting back on things i used freely before, i had got it down to about €90 p. month.

the point is that it's gone and is going up so fast, and i would prefer not keep living that way, as to how long it takes to pay back, that's the $64,000 question.

i had done some calculations that led me to believe it would be in the order of 7-8 years, but the engineer tells me it could be quite a bit less.

one disappointing fact i just found out: if i had done this 2 years ago, the price i get from ENEL would have been triple whatever the current rate, whereas the law changed, and now i'll be locked to triple the price at the time of contract.

i have a hunch this will be a huge difference in payback over 20 years, the life of the contract. again, according to the engineer, if i had gone with the info i had available at the time, i would have bought substandard chinese panels, whose yield has dropped off considerably.

my intention was to go off the grid completely, but the fact that they will pay for juice i don't use, at triple the present rate, and a growing solarity to the climate, and the state of battery tech changing so rapidly, i decided to go this route. i can always do that later.

i am actually tending towards investing more into panels purely for income, as i have no other pension plan, and the driving part of doing massage in this rural context is taking an increasing toll on my own spine. (barefoot shoemaker syndrome).

if this trial 2.8 kw works out as well as i'm led to believe, i think it's the best way to have a dependable income without driving around so much.

i did some numbers on it when deciding whether there was a possibility of starting an LLP with outside investment and putting in 20kw, which could go up on the hill, with more solar hours, and trackers to capture 25-30% more still.

i think in 30 years, it would have returned 4% profit! i was being as worst-case as i could, so reality would always pan out better, but i missed the bus with the law change, or it would have been much more attractive.

so i'm going to put in 5kw more, about €35,000, and hope to see a few hundred a month from that, and around a 7-year break-even point. this would also enable me to use many more appliances, such as a pool pump/filter (which has to run more as the climate warms) and an electric shredder to make mulch and compost, maybe an electric sauna, water features, interesting lighting options, who knows?

shifting to electric transportation becomes a much stronger option with that kind of production capacity.

i repeat however that the financial aspect of this is secondary to the feeling that is a dream i've had since the 70's, to power my music studio with the sun.

since becoming aware of peak oil and the 'long emergency' these last 5 years, especially here at ET, has sharpened my resolution to do this enormously, in fact i wish i had jumped earlier, as even if i had had to replace the panels, i would have had so much more favourable contract, IF what we predict is right, and some invention doesn't come out which supersedes all energy sources before it...and electricity rates continue to climb so inexorably.

if i find clients for the company i used, they will give me a 3% finder fee. one client found a new contractee, and received a solar water system as reward.

this could pan out well, as there are a lot of rooves, and i know a fair amount of people who are already asking me for more info, with a possible contract in mind.

i don't think i'll ever make big money this way, but the real payback will be feeling like i'm doing something for the environment, now i can. by taking the risk, this puts me in a good position, IF it all unfolds according to plan, to help others do it too, and experience the sense of pleasure it brings.

if we had wanted to, with a hundredth of what men have invested in killing machines, put into sustainable energy instead, i think we really would have had energy 'too cheap to meter'.

if it had been a purely financial decision and global warming wasn't such a pressing problem, i might have muddled on paying on, and cutting back more on use, but the economics are a gamble on the future, the feeling of 'right action' starts as soon as the decision is made.

part of me thinks this is quixotic, but that's ok...if that's the case, i did the best i could with the info i had, and how can you value financially, feeling like you're not continuing to drive demand?

no metric for that...

i dunno, you're into macs...this feels like making the house electricity system move in that kind of direction, but i'm really only talking from the experience of solar/biomass water, and a little with a couple of little panels and a solar wellpump for garden irrigation.

how it will feel when ENEL hooks it up for real, i'll report, though i'm already feeling the edges of it, and it feels like i wanted it to, can't really describe it....pieces fitting in some puzzle is the closest i can say.

Peace is not the absence of war -- peace is the absence of fear. Ursula Franklin

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Fri May 2nd, 2008 at 03:02:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Being Ready With Constructive Alternatives (none / 1)

Hey Melo - this is amazing - and worth Diary. How about it? My son is in the process of designing his home (next to mine) and wants to go passive house plus wind/solar energy (in Ireland a lot more dubious prospect).. Anything on the practicalities and economics of this would be helpful.

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Fri May 2nd, 2008 at 04:35:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Being Ready With Constructive Alternatives (none / 0)

here's a shot of the solar water panels next to the pv.

so golar!

Peace is not the absence of war -- peace is the absence of fear. Ursula Franklin

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Thu May 1st, 2008 at 11:03:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Being Ready With Constructive Alternatives (none / 1)

Great to see someone living their dream. I look forward to an ET yurt meet-up for our yurp based members!

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Thu May 1st, 2008 at 05:42:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Being Ready With Constructive Alternatives (none / 0)

yeah, me too, but there's a lot to do, i better ease up on the blogging, lol...

so hard...

Peace is not the absence of war -- peace is the absence of fear. Ursula Franklin

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Thu May 1st, 2008 at 06:02:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Being Ready With Constructive Alternatives (none / 1)

I might have to stop by during my double-secret world tour next year.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Thu May 1st, 2008 at 05:05:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Being Ready With Constructive Alternatives (4.00 / 4)

Are you aware of the MIT project do try to make a similar transformation?
http://dotearth.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/04/25/climate-and-the-web-electronic-democracy-on-steroids/?h p

The blogosphere still feels largely like a boundless op-ed page. And opinion columns often serve mainly to validate the views and passions of like-minded people. But there's a growing effort to figure out how to attack and solve problems with this fascinating interactive communication tool... Dr. Klein's group is designing an "argument tree" in which contributions must fit into one of four categories: issues needing addressing, options for resolving them, information supporting an option and information rebutting one.

by asdf on Thu May 1st, 2008 at 09:13:31 AM EST

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