European Tribune - Community, Politics & Progress.

The Haradinaj test

by talos
Fri Apr 4th, 2008 at 12:59:01 PM EST

A bit more than a year ago, noting Ramush Haradinaj's immense luck (a streak which, goes way back), I made the point that "the Haradinaj case is a litmus test for the impartiality of the Hague tribunal - at least as far as any credibility it might still have among Serbs".

The test results are in. They're negative.

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The Haradinaj test | 17 comments (17 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: The Haradinaj test (4.00 / 3)

For me, the Hague Tribunal failed this test first with the Naser Oric case, but then again when Haradinaj was brought in. You had people literally warning Del Ponte off from prosecuting him, and you had UNMIK coming dangerously close to turning a blind eye to the murder of witnesses.

Del Ponte's recent revelations about the lack of interest in evidence of the harvesting of organs taken from 300 captives during the Kosovo war was also an eye opener.

by Upstate NY on Fri Apr 4th, 2008 at 11:13:55 PM EST

Re: The Haradinaj test (none / 1)

Have her accusations reached any of the press in the U.S.? (I'm assuming no, for reasons that make me swear and kick furniture, so I'm not writing them here.)

"You can't be a successful crook with a dishonest face, now, can you?" -The Fourth Doctor

by lychee (lychee9393 A yahoo D com) on Sat Apr 5th, 2008 at 03:23:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Haradinaj test (none / 1)

Yes, they have.

On the online editions of places such as FoxNews, etc.

You'd think someone could scare up a sufficiently sensational headline that would carry the story a little further.

But the PR agencies have done such a great job that editors can efficiently censor themselves from picking such a story up.

by Upstate NY on Sat Apr 5th, 2008 at 09:58:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Haradinaj test (none / 0)

By the way, will her book be released in the U.S.? I looked on Amazon to find a release date but found no listing.

"You can't be a successful crook with a dishonest face, now, can you?" -The Fourth Doctor

by lychee (lychee9393 A yahoo D com) on Sat Apr 5th, 2008 at 03:51:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Haradinaj test (4.00 / 2)

A more complete analysis by Douglas Muir at Fistful of Euros

by Deni on Sat Apr 5th, 2008 at 10:07:37 AM EST

Re: The Haradinaj test (none / 0)

The comments thread doesn't make for happy reading.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Sat Apr 5th, 2008 at 10:10:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Haradinaj test (none / 1)

Why is it a more complete analysis? He says as little as anyone?

I've actually read transcripts of several cases tried at the Hague.

Muir strikes me as the type of person who hasn't, and yet comments blandly on the cases all the same. If people really knew what Western actors were saying in that court, they would never write such articles.

Generals from France such as Morillon, the Netherlands such as Karremans, Canada such as Mackenzie--all three were on the ground and bear firsthand witness to events--have made comments which severely undercuts many of the positions espoused by those who head the court. In fact, so has Del Ponte who is cast as a hero when she prosecutes Serbs and a villain when she prosecutes others, all by the same sources.

by Upstate NY on Sat Apr 5th, 2008 at 11:48:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Haradinaj test (none / 1)

I actually tried to answer some of Doug's points ... I was thinking of reposting the whole thing over here.

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake

by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Sat Apr 5th, 2008 at 04:34:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Haradinaj test (none / 0)

Stealink a sweatshop runner's line, Just Do It.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Sat Apr 5th, 2008 at 04:47:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Haradinaj test (none / 0)

OK. I just did it!

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake

by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Sat Apr 5th, 2008 at 05:32:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yugoslavia nostalgia (none / 0)

The whole Balkans issue becomes messier and messier. I'm tempted to wish a plague on all their houses and be done with it. But, of course, we can't cos they'll be at each other's throats if we do. Meanwhile we get the blame for everything that goes wrong, even when the things that go wrong are down to the fact that they just can't stop themselves annoying each other.

At some point we'll have a whole series fo Cypriot-green lines up and down the country and then, a generation later, everybody will wonder what on earth all of the squabbles were about.

Bring back Tito.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Sat Apr 5th, 2008 at 11:15:00 AM EST

Re: Yugoslavia nostalgia (4.00 / 2)

The whole Balkans issue becomes messier and messier.

It doesn't, only Westerners are still learning details of the mess there. Not a small part of which now has to do with their ill-considered meddling, including the issue at hand.

I'm tempted to wish a plague on all their houses and be done with it.

That's how many Americans view Iraq and Afghanistan, after their bold freedom-bringing army fucked them up (a little more than they were already).

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Sat Apr 5th, 2008 at 11:31:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yugoslavia nostalgia (4.00 / 2)

Exactly. No matter the bigoted attitudes toward people in the Balkans, they did not kill nearly as many people as the Western Europeans did in the last century. We can't ignore the fact that Europe was divided between East and West (with much of the Balkans landing in the East) and this division froze the enmities that resulted from the World War.

by Upstate NY on Sat Apr 5th, 2008 at 11:43:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yugoslavia nostalgia (none / 0)

I admit you know a lot more about this than I do, but suggesting that the inhabitants of the former Yugoslavia are all barbarians who couldn't wait to get at each other's throat is a dreadful slur.

And you do realise that you're suggesting that the West was wrong for trying to stop them and we should retreat and just let them get on with it. Cos I don't see anything else but criticism of that act of peace-imposition.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Sat Apr 5th, 2008 at 12:56:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yugoslavia nostalgia (4.00 / 7)

Well, I've written on this many times on this website, and though I don't expect anyone to remember what I wrote, I can assure you that I never called people barbarians who are at each other's throat. In fact, the post you're responding to is a defense of your casting the people of the Balkans in this manner: "The whole Balkans issue becomes messier and messier. I'm tempted to wish a plague on all their houses and be done with it. But, of course, we can't cos they'll be at each other's throats if we do." so, ultimately, I fail to see how you deduce that I believe they are all barbarians.

Instead, I suggested there were unresolved ethnic troubles in the region post WW2. Whereas Germany apologized for the actions of the Nazis, the ex-Yugoslavs never dealt with the legacy of fascism in the region. This means that many were in denial about its existence in the region. It was all too easy for radicals to exploit this tension, especially when the region was encouraged to subdivide once again by Western Europeans (Germany, mainly). That initial subdivision triggered the mayhem.

Peace-imposition is also what the US is supposedly doing in Iraq. The fact is, The Serbs-Croats-Muslims had an agreement in 1991 which was authored by Lord Carrington. That was scuttled by the interference of Germany and the USA. Subsequently, they displayed ultimate irresponsibility by scuttling the peace and then not providing a security apparatus to prevent bloodshed. To this day, the US and Germany point to Operation Storm as an example of how they defended the Croats and Muslims from the Serbs, though Storm itself was a massive ethnic cleansing campaign. These two countries then conspired again in Kosovo to bring war to the region. Germany was forging documents meant to show that Serbia had conjured "Operation Horseshoe" while at Rambouillet the US declined the peace agreement offered by the Serbs (full autonomy for Kosovo).

It's obvious that the western actors FOSTERED bloodshed rather than prevented it.

by Upstate NY on Sat Apr 5th, 2008 at 01:36:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yugoslavia nostalgia (none / 0)

after their bold freedom-bringing army fucked them up

Excuse me !!!! The various factions in the former Yugoslavia had spent several years exterminating each other before the West stepped in to try to sort the mess out. And the ungrateful b.....ds are now blaming us for the mess they're still in. Largely cos they're still run by the corrupt murderous militias who want to go back to their splendid killing zones where they could kill anyone they wanted without having some bleeding heart westerner tut-tutting at them. It seems there hasn't been anough death down there lately.

Sorry, we thought it was a good idea to help save civilians from genocidal militias, I personally apologise to all the leaders of the militias for spoiling their fun.

Do you seriously think that all would be peachy if the west hadn't stepped in. Do you think anybody would have stopped the killing of croats/ bosnians/ kosovans/ serbs who had the misfortune to be living in the wrong area unless the West did ? Do you seriously think the militias might have stopped all by themselves ? I see absolutely no evidence of anything other than the fact they were having the most fun you could imagine. Restraint, compassion and simple humanity don't seem to have featured.

So, it's all the West's fault. Talk about refusing to own your own problems.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Sat Apr 5th, 2008 at 12:51:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yugoslavia nostalgia (4.00 / 4)

The various factions in what is in practice former Iraq and Afghanistan spent several years exterminating each other before the West stepped in to 'try to sort the mess out', too. Do never speak of gratefulness as an occupier, occupiers have responsibilities rather than dishing out pleasantries; and do not speak of gratefulness especially those who never invited "you" (and those are who blame "you" are from them). The corrupt murderous militias of the Kosovans haven't run "them", not at all, not until the West invaded and thought the KLA is an ally, and then failed to control them despite the ostensible peacekeeping and policing mandate, because force protection was more on their minds. That the EU-controlled police forces failed to protect witnesses, find the assassins, and that Hague didn't got any help from EU or NATO to nail Haradinaj is all "our" fault and playing into those who'd kill anyone thery wanted.

I repeat "we" let those Kosovan militias roam free and reverse-ethnic-cleanse ethnic Serbians, "we" stood down when the militias organised large-scale pogroms in 2004, and "we" didn't weed out them from local political life by the power of Hague, all of which would be "our" responsibility by international law.

Do you seriously think it's over? And why do you argue against a nonexistent position not argued by me ("no Western intervention - all would have been well") - do you seriously think what things could have been done much better, actually solving problems rather than turn shit upside down? And what do you speak about, the West (mainly the USA) was actually an in-battle adviser for the Coratian Reconquista, and not unaware of the ethnic cleansing -- "we" were aiding and abetting what some of those militias did.

And again, ) have NOT said "it's all the West's fault". I have quite explicitely said that the West's faults were added upon prior faults (the part in parantheses you did NOT quote), and that the issue at hand, the diary's subject specifically IS the West's fault.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Sat Apr 5th, 2008 at 01:49:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The Haradinaj test | 17 comments (17 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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