Is Paris burning?

by redstar
Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 01:55:14 AM EST

Well, not exactly. Instead, we had the Olympic torch come to Paris only to be doused by those who would pursue their own political agenda at the expense of those of the proper center of attention: Olympic athletes.

Today, the Olympic flame came to Paris, and an opportunistic mayor, who likely wants to someday be President, joined with a craven party, which went so far as to call into question French participation in upcoming Olympic Games. I mean, what the fuck? We see now a political faction in France obviously bent on exploiting, for domestic political purposes, the world's premier showcase for personal struggle in pursuit of achievement, for fairplay, for human triumph over adversity and, ultimately, peace. I can't wait to see what the clueless fucking morons come up with next in America while they continue to not give a shit about the millions of women and children who are still homeless in that country due to their chosen economic system.

And I don't even want to go into the behaviour of the Greens, chosen marketing partners of the PS. Holy shit. Given the behaviour their leadership today I would have thought fuckin' McDonald's opened up a Soylent Green restaurant at Montparnasse. Except wait wait, Noel Mammaire (faute d'orthographe faite expres) would probably approve of the latter over the former,  on grounds of, in combination with soixante-huitard style free love, it's a renewable resource and cuts down on global overpopulation.

We may as well just quit putting on these games.

Today, the spirit of the Olympics, a flame lit at Mount Olympus last week as it was two thousand years ago, and carried around the world, this year to Beijing, has been pissed on by the unserious left in France.  As in Socrates days, those who never did so well at sports were out in force in the streets to spoil that spirit and participate what they are good at...being anti-social and disruptive.


I know , I know, redstar is off the rails. For whatever reason, I'm some apologist for the supposedly repressive regime in Beijing, a tool of the PRC or whatever. Sure, I get it. PRC: Repressive. USA (which half of Europe is in bed with in Iraq and elsewhere): champion of democracy and liberty.

But listen, there's a way to do this, and a way to be an ass. You want to see a way to do this, please listen to Marie-George Buffet: no mention of any theocratic though certainly affable Dalai Lama, very direct condemnation of disruptive protests in Paris, which distract from the games (and Minister Buffet, the best Minister of Sport in France's history, certainly knows what she is talking about here.) And above all,  rightfully muted yet very firm criticism of Beijing with respect to liberty of expression and rights of man.

We want for China's successful accession into the community of developed nations (and I invite you look at the all measures of human progress, she is joining us, and quite quickly, putting even parts of Europe to shame to all of our benefit). We want a country whose government is no more and no less accountable to its people, all of its people, than governments in the West (tm). We reject this mythical Tibet that hollywood actors like Richard Gere  have gotten some on the "lyrical" left, as Jerome likes to call them, to idealize. We want all citizens of the PRC, citizens of the world like the rest of us, to have the freedom to meaningfully participate in the political future of their country, no more no less so than in the US, the UK or even, birthplace of the rights of man, France. But we want the games to begin, god dammit, without all this bad faithed bullshit in advance of them.

Because the real story? Beijing will be challenging, very challenging, for athletes. But trust French greens to forget about the environment, in favor of some emotive connexion with the star of a Hollywood film of their youth. Trust the "greens", and their partners the PS, to miss yet again the forest for the trees...

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Today, the spirit of the Olympics, a flame lit at Mount Olympus last week as it was two thousand years ago,

I saw a few pictures of the flame lighting ceremony. The one thing it reminisced was fascists rituals. Pseudo-ancient costumes, actresses with very regular looks, love for the torch and fire concepts... Only thing missing was the pseudo-medieval music.

You're saying the olympics defend the "personal struggle in pursuit of achievement" ? There's nothing personal about being the selected product of a very collective sporting association with a total control over the sportsmen and women lives.

That the olympics are about fair play ? As in artistic ice skating ? As in disciplines chosen to please this or that IOC apparatchik ?

That the olympics are about peace ? In Greece the olympics didn't stop wars, they merely interrupt wars, only pause them. Now they don't even achieve that purpose. And it will not the first time repression is needed by a dictature to make the games possible. (Did you note that Reporters Sans Frontière wasn't protesting specifically for Tibet, but for general press freedom ?). The Olympics are about fairy-tales stories of peace, but doesn't care to do anything about it - indeed, the IOC hierarchy comes quite often from despotic administrations ; remember Samaranch. If the IOC claims it defends peace, it has to prove it.

The IOC cares more about profits than about any "olympic spirit". Less media-loved sports see their athletes quota so strongly cut that they have to give up quite important disciplines (as Track cycling had to do) ; in many sports, the hard part is qualifying for the Olympics as national competition is the hard part, and thanks to that absurd nationalism, ceaselessly promoted by the IOC, Olympic competitions aren't between individuals, but between nations. And of course, sports have to make themselves over to please NBC. Basketball timeouts were already annoying enough, but the skimpy clothes volley balls women are supposed to wear are just absurd.

Of course, let's not get in how the Olympic ideal, with its elitist bent, means that sports associations now only care about the elites, dropping the concept of mass sport participation altogether - among the good thing the PCF did in its départements was actually giving more money to mass events rather than elite events ; something the Olympic games constantly udermine.

The IOC wants pictures of its torch acclaimed by people of the world as it is flying around. Well, that only work for actually popular organisations, but the IOC is holding hostage whatever ideals elite sports carry - to the point that it is very intent in depriving athletes of their freedom of speech. Or those actual people who are supposed to applaud - the amount of cops surrounding the torch speaks more of fascists regimes than peace promotion and in itself was calling for protests.

Oh, and there was a time when communists understood the meaning "Le droit des peuples à disposer d'eux mêmes". Is that available only when the bad imperialists are also capitalists, or when their chosen independence party is of the proper communist bent ? The need for Kurdish autonomy/independence is not suppressed by their admiration for Stalinist totalitarianism ; neither is Tibet's despite its theocratic leader.

The concept that socialisation has to be linked to business relationships is a great victory for business relationships, not for socialisation...

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 06:30:56 AM EST
Also, when progress is tut-tutted (in choir with neoliberals - a convenient fantasy when sweatshops run by/for Western multinationals in China keep prices at our local supermarket down), worth to re-read:

How crushing workers' strikes with the military is the right thing to from a socialist viewpoint also escapes me.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 07:23:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A clarification on the article quoted in Colman's Minor Errors diary you cite.

According to that article,

In a little-noticed mid-summer announcement, the Asian Development Bank presented official survey results indicating China's economy is smaller and poorer than established estimates say. The announcement cited the first authoritative measure of China's size using purchasing power parity methods. The results tell us that when the World Bank announces its expected PPP data revisions later this year, China's economy will turn out to be 40 per cent smaller than previously stated.

This more accurate picture of China clarifies why Beijing concentrates so heavily on domestic priorities such as growth, public investment, pollution control and poverty reduction. The number of people in China living below the World Bank's dollar-a-day poverty line is 300m - three times larger than currently estimated.

However, according to David Dollar, World Bank director of Development Policy, the conclusion in that last sentence is wrong:

The new PPPs reveal that prices are about 40 percent higher than had been assumed under the old PPP, which was an academic guestimate.  Some researchers immediately applied the new PPP conversion factor for GDP to household data and came up with hugely higher estimates of the $1 per day poverty rate for China.  However, the World Bank does not use the GDP conversion factor in measuring poverty.  The research department of the bank will produce a conversion factor for poverty analysis that takes account of two important things:

    (1) the basket actually consumed by the poor is different from the GDP basket; and

    (2) the poor almost exclusively live in rural areas where prices are lower.

This work is still underway but the research department has given us a range for their new estimates.  Their old estimate of $1 per day poverty rate was 10% in 2004; the new estimate will be in the range of 13-17%.

[Bold in the original, italics mine]

New PPPs reveal China has had more poverty reduction than we thought

In other words, the  dollar-a-day poverty line is not 300 million, as claimed in the FT article, but 170-220 million.

Moreover, according to Dollar, the new PPP figures mean that there has been more poverty reduction than previously thought:

The reason for this is that the better price data will also be applied to earlier estimates of poverty (all of which are based on constant Chinese yuan data).  The World Bank estimate of $1 per day poverty in China at the beginning of reform will be raised to somewhere in the range of 71-77%.  The old estimate was 64%.  So, we used to think that 54% of China's huge population had been lifted out of poverty during economic reform.  The improved estimate will be around 59%.

[italics mine]

Finally, some of David Dollar's comments from his travels in Gansu province, China's second poorest:


  • Traveling around rural areas, one can see that China is still a relatively poor country, with the second largest number of $1 per day poor after India.  At the same time, there has been tremendous progress.  At the beginning of reform, we now know that China was substantially poorer than Sub-Saharan Africa.

  • It is natural to be struck by the glaring disparity between rural Gansu and coastal cities such as Shanghai, with their skyscrapers and neon. But when I travel I always like to ask people, in my mediocre Chinese, how their lives have changed in the past decade. It is hard to find anyone whose life is not far better than before.

  • In a village close to Lanzhou airport we met Dongxiang people who had voluntarily resettled out of their poor county to irrigated land in the Hexi corridor. <...> I asked the old man if he ever regretted moving. Without two seconds hesitation, he said: "Not once. The old village had poor transportation, no school, poor crops. Now we have good transportation, school for the kids, more income."

  • My casual impressions of Gansu accord with the improved poverty estimates - which show still significant poverty but huge progress since the beginning of reform.

[italics mine]


... all progress depends on the unreasonable mensch.
(apologies to G.B. Shaw)
by marco on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 09:48:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Fair point about PPP. But World Bank official David Dollar's subjective claims don't convince me.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 11:01:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'd really like a serious discussion of these issues. But perhaps not now :-)

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 11:13:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Lest this be misunderstood, I mean: let's have a discussion sometime centred on these issues.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 01:04:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, and Wiki's Gini index graph isn't even up to date: by 2006, China's grew further to 46.01% according to government figures, while according  to the CIA Factbook, it was 47 in China and 46 in the USA in 2007.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 07:47:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Including Roumania, and Luxambourg, and all others in between?

That is the fair comparison. Not the US.

Freiheit ist immer Freiheit der Andersdenkenden

by redstar on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 07:53:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
LOL, why? The USA, just like China? is one country with more than 60 years of history as one economic area, the EU is not.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 07:58:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Define "economic area". What exactly does this mean?

Freiheit ist immer Freiheit der Andersdenkenden
by redstar on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 07:59:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If it doesn't mean anything for you, that shouldn't keep you from giving your reasons to see China as more like the EU-27 than the USA economically.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 08:01:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I've already given them, elsewhere.

It's really pretty obvious though, at least to me. Give all everyone seems to know hereabouts on Tibet threads on this site, it should be pretty clear that economic development patterns in the PRC are, shall we say, a bit different than in the neo-liberal EU...

Freiheit ist immer Freiheit der Andersdenkenden

by redstar on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 08:09:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Your reasons given elsewhere don't make much sense to me. You don't elaborate on "far more socio-economically diverse", except for a strawman on Tibet (a few million Tibetans won't explain a high, and growing, Gini index). You write about the big regional difference in that growth, as if it were some unexpected development, rather than direct result of the government's policies, and if one didn't depend on the other. Arguments about "socio-economic diversity" also nicely ignore economic factors like trade flows and centralised redistribution -- something the USA does (for lots of years), something the EU-27 does (for a year), and something China did in the past and would have been free to do properly (but the announced big West China development projects come late, are insufficient, and as such may only achieve forestalling the growth of local unrest into a revolution, not to really even things out).

Back again to my original point, the trend is of a skyrocketing Gini Index, growing faster than in the neoliberal US or EU, which means the growth of a miniature elite and a small middle-class at the expense of peasants (who are also threanteded by the new Enclosures) and exploited migrant workers (the neoliberal EU is still much more labour-friendly than your "communist" PRC, in fact even the USA is).

For what it's worth, here is a source on EU ( -6, -9, -12, -15, -25, -27) Gini index [pdf!], tough it is based on a 2004 study that possibly uses even older numbers: it has the USA only at 39.4%. EU-27 comes in very close, 39.9%.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 10:55:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If you were ever an athlete who was training to achieve the goal of going to the Olympics, or knew someone who was, I suspect you would understand a bit about how that struggle is deeply personal and, once we're stripped away all these opportunistic protests and other related political bullshit from the games, is what sport is all about.

Freiheit ist immer Freiheit der Andersdenkenden
by redstar on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 09:14:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Can we also strip away the opportunism and corruption of Olympic officialdom, the TV biz and big money, the doping, the penetration of commercial interests, sponsoring, advertising, the whole tacky Coca-Cola razzmatazz of the Olympic circus?

If all you see is some noble ideal and individuals striving for excellence, your eyesight is curiously selective.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 09:31:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If that's your prime motivation for writing your diary, I'm 100% with you. I've been increasingly annoyed by the attempts to target athletes into this whole charade of righteousness.

Whatever the opinions how political or commercial or blatantly ritualistic the Olympics have become, whatever the political alignment people want to affiliate themselves to voice their protest, whatever one feels about China's lacking progressiveness or equality or environmental policies - stay the fuck away from involving the athletes, in whatever shape, form, motivation, or action. It should not be their concern that China was chosen by the IOC. That's not what sport should be about. Full stop.

The core of evil is a lack of empathy

by Nomad on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 09:36:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
my disgust.

Imagine, if the PS politicking of these Olympics prompted the withdrawal of France from the games. (And their rhetoric goes in this direction...)

Now, put yourself in the shoes of athletes.

I know two members of the 1980 US Olympic team for cycling, one a very good friend. He's still not over it.

Freiheit ist immer Freiheit der Andersdenkenden

by redstar on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 09:40:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Maybe the athletes and their federations should find a way to take the IOC back. Because as long as they let those people to have these powers over their lives, thing such as this are going to happen.

The concept that socialisation has to be linked to business relationships is a great victory for business relationships, not for socialisation...
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 05:04:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That may be what sport is all about. Well, my sister was on the Olympic track (in rowing) until she was 18 and her motivations were much more social ; she had a bunch of friends, so she kept on training with them. Once she changed towns, her interest for sports withered... I also know about high level kayakers, who quickly gave up on that sport after peaking - what's the influence of peer pressure, of social motivation about this ?

Also, this is often what sports is all about, but is this what the olympics are about ? In France, in many sports (and due to the reduction in national quotas in many sports) the decision as to who gets to participate is often subject to in-federation political fighting rather than actual performance...

The concept that socialisation has to be linked to business relationships is a great victory for business relationships, not for socialisation...

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 05:02:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I saw a few pictures of the flame lighting ceremony. The one thing it reminisced was fascists rituals. Pseudo-ancient costumes, actresses with very regular looks, love for the torch and fire concepts... Only thing missing was the pseudo-medieval music.

Exactly !!!

Independent - Aryan ideals, not ancient Greece, were the inspiration behind flame tradition

There is a two-word answer to those who think the Olympic torch is a symbol of harmony between nations that should be kept apart from politics - Adolf Hitler.

The ceremony played out on the streets of Paris yesterday did not originate in ancient Greece, nor even in the 19th century, when the Olympic movement was revived. The entire ritual, with its pagan overtones, was devised by a German named Dr Carl Diem, who ran the 1936 Olympics in Berlin...........

It was his idea that the flame should be lit under the supervision of a High Priestess, using mirrors to concentrate the sun's rays, and passed from torch to torch along the way, so that when it arrived in the Berlin stadium it would have a quasi-sacred purity.

The concept could hardly fail to appeal to the Nazis, who loved pagan mythology, and saw ancient Greece as an Aryan forerunner of the Third Reich.



keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 07:44:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, there is some Nazi connection, but not in its totality...

Olympic Flame - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

...fire was also present at many of the sanctuaries in Olympia, Greece. A fire permanently burned on the altar of Hestia in Olympia, Greece. During the Olympic Games, which honored Zeus, additional fires were lit at his temple and that of his wife, Hera. The modern Olympic flame is ignited at the site where the temple of Hera used to stand.

...The Olympic Flame from the ancient games was reintroduced during the 1928 Olympic Games when an employee of the Electric Utility of Amsterdam called Gerhard Herlitz lit for the first time the flame of the Olympic Games in Amsterdam, the Netherlands. In 1928, the flame burnt in the Marathon Tower of the Olympic Stadium in Amsterdam.

The modern convention of moving the Olympic Flame via a relay system from Olympia to the Olympic venue began with the 1936 Summer Olympics in Berlin, Germany.

The relay, captured in Leni Riefenstahl's film, "Olympia", was part of the Nazi propaganda machine's attempt to add myth and mystique to Adolf Hitler's regime. Hitler saw the link with the ancient Games as the perfect way to illustrate his belief that classical Greece was an Aryan forerunner of the modern German Reich.[2]



*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 07:53:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I see Godwin's Law doesn't apply when pontificating on a subject when that subject is unpopular with the editorial staff of this site.

Freiheit ist immer Freiheit der Andersdenkenden
by redstar on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 10:27:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
redstar, if this diary and comment thread is your response to the Tibet articles you so loudly disagree with, you're not doing "your side" any favours.

Plus, this has nothing to do with the site's editorial line. I remind you of the frontpager duties:

So frontpagers rarely step in as moderators in their function as frontpagers (frontpagers are also normal community members, with the same rights to comment and rate and have opinions). Generally, when a frontpager intervenes with the authority of a frontpager, s/he will indicate so by posting a comment in which s/he will use the moderation tag, which looks like this: [ET Moderation Technology™] .


When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 10:34:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
with the way various protest flavor of the month groups are disrupting the Olympic games.

That is also a subtext of my disgust with these Tibet puff pieces as well.

Freiheit ist immer Freiheit der Andersdenkenden

by redstar on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 10:43:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
just the symbolic flame movement across the world, which China is using for its own political purposes.

Activists are looking for a symbolic, but highly visible, way to protest for Tibet and press freedom in China, and they found a perfect one.

What struck me most in all the images was the close protection to the flame, visibly imposed by the Chinese authorities, who have themselves decided that touching the flame would be an attack on them, and are overreacting. And what it shows is an authoritarian regime looking cornered, which is a good thing.

The Games have not been disrupted.

If anything, this also shows that the Chinese have soemthing to learn from our own leaders: they still seem able to be shamed, which makes them less effective at wielding power against the masses...

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 10:56:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You are game in attacking top religious authorities, but want to maintain the sacral holiness of the Olympics? That sounds funny to me.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 11:06:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I always say fuck Godwyn, it kills any use of historical parallels. What your above sentence means I have no clue about.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 11:05:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I would note that Heidegger was similarly compromised, but it would be a bit rash to toss out everything he wrote simple because of that.
by Upstate NY on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 04:36:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The olympics as run today are part of the "winner-take-all" culture which the neolibs so love.

The obligation to be an amateur has been dumped so that professional atheltes can participate, sell ads (and make yet more money if they win).

And your point about events for the masses and for the elites is spot on.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 08:28:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
would be about elitism. It's about excellence in human achievement, so this is normal.

Freiheit ist immer Freiheit der Andersdenkenden
by redstar on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 08:47:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Celebrating achievement in itself I don't have an issue with, and it can be inspiring and motivating but it is the way it is done that I don't like - as other have pointed out in the comments already.  

The problem with this approach is that it takes away from the grassroots.  At a time when we need to get people to engage more in being physically active on a recreational level and by building activity and sport into their day to day life, channelling off resources and funding to concentrate only on the elite then cuts off opportunities for community sports teams and access to recreational sport for people who are just never going to become elite athletes.

It is important to encourage everyone to engage in sport and physical activity no matter what level of ability.  The issue I have with the drive to compete and win is that from school level and above the focus is on those who are the best, leaving the average or uninterested to one side, so they don't develop any skills or confidence in sport and turn into couch potatoes.

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 08:57:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Note how I refered to M.-G. Buffet. Best sports minister ever.

In complete agreement with you. And your programme? That's the PCF's programme, always has been. Not the PS.

Freiheit ist immer Freiheit der Andersdenkenden

by redstar on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 09:05:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's part of Chinese culture though, not part of British culture. I'm referring to the impact of the Olympics itself, not China in this respect.

So in the UK, the focus on elite sport removes funding from the ground and rather than improving access to physical activity, it is reducing it as we plough lots of our lottery and other money into gearing up for the Olympics.  It could be used far better as an opportunity to encourage all to do whatever exercise they can and that they can enjoy rather than pushing the message that we must become Olympic hopefuls and nothing else is good enough.

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 09:20:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I did note that RSF was protesting for press freedoms generally, though the choice of venue for their protesting makes this a distinction without of difference. Especially after their stunts in Greece.

When I see them protesting at Hyeres for the national track cycling championship the lack of adequate press freedom in France relative to various accusations about Sarkozy, and his cozy relationship with the media owners in France, then maybe this could be taken a bit more seriously.  

Freiheit ist immer Freiheit der Andersdenkenden

by redstar on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 08:46:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Especially after their stunts in Greece.

Please go back to our discussion of this on the day.

According to your first judgement, this was all about the Western media using the Olympics to get themselves into the news. Your second was that it was all about Tibet.

It was neither. There were Tibetan protests elsewhere, but the three RSF guys made no reference to Tibet. They unfurled a banner reading "Boycott the country that tramples on human rights", and two RSF flags that can be seen here. Their declaration on human rights and particularly, freedom of the press and Internet in China can be read here. It contains only passing references to Tibet. Unsurprisingly, because there is far more to be said on these subjects than just Tibet.

Comparing Sarko's influence on the French press (though everyone here knows what I think of it) to the Party's lockdown in China lacks, to put it mildly. a sense of scale and perspective.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 09:25:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Scale and perspective are your enemies!  The right wing didn't get where they are by applying the rules of scale and perspective!

Soppy librul art:

(Note the walking up each others arses aspect of this librul sac-de-cul)

Wild agitprop we don't need your stinkin' scale and perspective art:

(Actually, the perspective here is spot on but only if you have THE EYES TO SEE, brother!)

Scale and perspective are the buck-toothed friends of the milque-toasty liberal handwringers who care about all the wrong things.

Real people don't care about those things--the wrong ones, I mean; and if they do it's because the libruls are wasting their time with scale and perspective.  No, I mean that scale and perspective--are only of interest to limp-wristed nancies (no good in a proper fight, right?) and those science-y types who are also crap at fighting, are also often skinny, wear thick glasses and have bad breath.

HE is the enemy: no, hold on, I mean the Greens are the enemy.  No, hold on, they sort of ARE they enemy but not because everything they say is wrong, but it's so inefficicent and they're attacking the wrong targets so...if we attack THEM (the Greens) we can clear the field for our attack on the REAL enemy who is, er, The West (I think--I'm a bit confused; certainly the enemy is not "the powerful"--it must be some sub-set of "The powerful"): and we won't be using the rules of scale and perspective against them, oh no!

[Note to readers: this comment was written without any consideration for scale or perspective--not sure I've got the hang of it; I'm worried I haven't insulted the right people somehow.  Just in case: bloody hippies!  Kill the rich!  We will fight them on the beaches!  Don't believe a word they say.  Swear a lot!  Fucking hell!]

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 10:03:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
and it was very clear. Like your RSF people, I too am critical of the PRC. What the hell do you think I meant by explicitly approving of Buffet's:

rightfully muted yet very firm criticism of Beijing with respect to liberty of expression and rights of man.
?

But she's also 100% correct that the proper avenue for this protext is in front of the Elysee palace and in Brussels. And not in the path of apolitical athletes.


Freiheit ist immer Freiheit der Andersdenkenden

by redstar on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 10:32:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
They are not my RSF people. I am simply pointing out the facts because you have so long persisted in deforming them in order to create a strawman.

Just as you seem intent on building a strawman out of "this entire site", "all the people here", "the editorial staff", all of whom you claim (or insinuate) are either pro-US, pro-Sarkozy, anti-Olympic ideals, suffused with religious fervour, Richard Gere groupies, and, in any case, out to hate you.

I wish you'd stop it.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 10:44:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There is no such thing as an apolitical athlete. Nor is there such a thing as an apolitical scientist (while Werner von Braun comes close to being the latter, he is hardly an ideal to pursue).

- Jake

"It seems to an outsider that Americans have a deep distrust of their government. Frankly, I don't blame them. I don't trust [their] government either."

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 12:53:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
crap "western" press with respect to Russia a decade ago should be putting on the same reading glasses today.

Freiheit ist immer Freiheit der Andersdenkenden
by redstar on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 02:01:20 AM EST
A decade ago, the crap Western press was busy mis-interpreting Yeltsin as democratic and economic-reformist hero. Time for you to change glasses.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 05:34:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Also, what's in the air now on ET, with these low-brow rhetorics? Helen equates criticism of Western intervention on the Balkans with claiming that "it's all the West's fault", you equate criticism of the PRC with praise for the USA?...

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 05:41:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It must be this time of the month:



Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 07:07:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Helen equates criticism of Western intervention on the Balkans with claiming that "it's all the West's fault",

that was your argument as I remember.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 07:39:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
<sigh> I explicitely stated it wasn't already before you claimed so (in the very post you responded to with this insinuation), and I again pointed that out in a longish reply you ignored.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 07:50:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
and I wonder if I am on the same planet with some of you.

The lack of accord is striking, yes.

Freiheit ist immer Freiheit der Andersdenkenden

by redstar on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 07:55:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Whatever. Why have you resorted to such low-brow rhetoric as to equate criticism of the PRC with an uncritical positive view of the USA?

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 08:00:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Define low brow.

Why is this low brow, but all these diaries about the theocracy in Tibet which get recommended are "high brow"?

Freiheit ist immer Freiheit der Andersdenkenden

by redstar on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 08:48:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I suggest low brow means plain bad faith, and I suggest you drop it.

That's my suggestion, not DoDo's.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 09:40:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Me?

Now that's rich.

Freiheit ist immer Freiheit der Andersdenkenden

by redstar on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 11:13:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Heh, you up one rhetorical low-brow with another.

I saw not a single diary on theocracy in Tibet, unless you consider the Chinese version of 'communism' a theocracy. The Dalai Lama is not in Tibet and diaries on Tibet concerned uprest there.

Now if you wanted real discussion, you would argue against your detractors' arguments, rather than kill any meaningful discussion on the onset by arguing against an imaginary position involving uncritical positive views of the US. That's low brow.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 11:17:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
lama love-fest threads from the past few weeks.

Freiheit ist immer Freiheit der Andersdenkenden
by redstar on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 11:01:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sure, the Chinese are busily being demonised by the press, the nice little Tibetans are being lionised and I'm pretty sure both sides are deploying all the toys of propaganda and PR that they can get their hands on.

However, you seem to be falling into the trap of "my enemy's enemy is my friend": just because the PRC is being set-up as enemy-of-the-people-3 doesn't mean that it's anything other than a nasty relatively overtly repressive, corrupt, one-party state. Of course, that doesn't make the Tibetans or the Dalai Lama saints or automatically make the Tibetan cause just.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 08:44:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This is exactly the problem.

We're also dealing with history here. Hundreds of thousands or perhaps a million Tibetans murdered over the last century. So in this latest repression/rebellion/reprisal event, many people will remember the past and hold that against China.

If you strip that context away however, much of the vehemence of the protests seems overblown. The UK for instance is contributing to a war in Iraq, and meanwhile we're talking about Chinese repression in Tibet that is so small-scale by comparison. That's why some of the reactions to the protests have been so knee-jerk.

by Upstate NY on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 04:46:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
rightfully muted yet very firm criticism

I might understand that rightfully if your own criticism was more muted and less of a violent rant.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 04:33:30 AM EST
Violent...you mean like the violence that was done to completely apolitical athletes yesterday, by protestors, on the streets of Paris?

Freiheit ist immer Freiheit der Andersdenkenden
by redstar on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 09:11:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What nonsense. You really are looking for the retort about tanks on Tien An Men, aren't you? Let's talk about some real violence.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 09:42:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hmmm. If the Olympics were happening in Atlanta this year, do you really imagine we'd be seeing these same magnitude of protests?

I think not.

And yet, and yet, how many people died of neglect in New Orleans, neo-liberal violence in effect, with no resulting accountability afterwards?

Now contrast to Tien An Men and PRC government actions since then.

Freiheit ist immer Freiheit der Andersdenkenden

by redstar on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 10:46:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, we probably wouldn't be, but we probably should.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 10:49:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
were serious, they'd be at Davos every year, protesting.

But they are not.

Wonder why that is.

Of course, there are no PRC government officials on the guest list at Davos, though I suspect Richard Gere might be attending...

Freiheit ist immer Freiheit der Andersdenkenden

by redstar on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 11:12:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm actually surprised. How come no-one form the PRC goes to Davos?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 11:18:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There is one ex-government official on the list, out of government for now a good decade or more.

Maybe they don't go much to Davos because that's not the way they really play their game, just like it's not the way we play our game.

Freiheit ist immer Freiheit der Andersdenkenden

by redstar on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 11:03:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
were serious, they'd be at Davos every year, protesting.

But they are not.

LOL. Stop reading US media :-)

Banned Davos protest ends in 200 arrests | Independent on Sunday, The | Find Articles at BNET.com

Police in the Swiss capital, Bern, held 200 protesters who took part in an illegal demonstration against the World Economic Forum. Initially, about 100 people were prevented from marching through the city. Later, a larger number of demonstrators clashed with police, who used tear gas and water cannons.


*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 11:25:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What makes you think they are the same people?

Seriously. And I'm the person employing fallacious logic here?

Hmmm...wonder what LCR's take is on all of this this? After all, they're the folks generally supplying the rioters at Davos.

I'll tell you...they're not saying anything.

Maybe you can explain to me why that is.

Freiheit ist immer Freiheit der Andersdenkenden

by redstar on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 11:38:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
for the very simple reason that there is only one narrow mountain road going up there, and it is VERY easy (and it is indeed done by the Swiss authorities) to police the access to that road.

Few protesters have access to helicopters...

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 11:33:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Which completely apolitical athletes ? The Chirac friend David Douillet ? The Sarkozyst tennis men that were the more numerous torch carriers ? Stéphane Diagana who has accepted a government mission ?

The concept that socialisation has to be linked to business relationships is a great victory for business relationships, not for socialisation...
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 04:57:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
between the public protesting against China's action in Tibet (in the most visible way available) and governments doing so (or not). In case you don't remember, the publics of Europe were against the various recent wars of our leaders, and demonstrated massively agaisnt them.

Those that demonstrated in both cases are consistent, so why criticse them?

The hypocrisy we denounce is that of our governments and pundits, and to be honest I have no idea what the common wisdom is about China and Tibet - if anything, it's rather confused.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 06:22:56 AM EST
on the other side of the globe, with no justification, against international law of the time?

I wasn't aware of this.

OTOH, with US actions, well...

I think just about everyone on this site is losing sight of this very very crucial difference. Internaional law is the basis of the most fundamental of our objections to what the Americans are doing.

Now, look at Tibet, and put in a context of international law, that same international law we need to rightfully criticize the Americans.


Freiheit ist immer Freiheit der Andersdenkenden

by redstar on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 08:04:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Were China's actions in 1951-9 in Tibet in accordance with international law? I am not sure either way, it's very murky.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 08:19:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
International law is, in it's current form, divorced from ethics, and in any case protesting legal actions is perfectly reasonable. The law defines the hard edges beyond which coercion can be applied by the state, not the limits of acceptable practice. International law is only one of the problems with US actions.

That the PRC has, beyond its border, been acting less awfully than the US has is not an endorsement.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 08:25:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The parading of the Olympic flame is a very politicial act, the symbolism has little to do with sport and a lot to do with branding and product placement.

I have little objection to the Olympics as a sporting spectacle, but politics has buried it. Nobody would spend £10 billion on a mere sports festival, especially the British. But a chance to have a political grandstand cannot be missed.

It would be far better if it was in a place where global politics rarely intrude and then everybody could return every 4 years and have a sporting shindig without the bs.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 07:48:01 AM EST
I know , I know, redstar is off the rails. For whatever reason, I'm some apologist for the supposedly repressive regime in Beijing, a tool of the PRC or whatever. Sure, I get it. PRC: Repressive. USA (which half of Europe is in bed with in Iraq and elsewhere): champion of democracy and liberty

Are you really suggesting that a significant number of people on this site consider the USA a champion of democracy and liberty? Or is this a demonstration of how a successful polemicist shouldn't be shackled by mere facts, reason or fairness?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 08:28:40 AM EST
As an avid sportsman and fan I have no problem with competitive sports even if modern commercialism seems so often turn the professional game into a circus. However I have to say the Olympics tend to leave me cold.  Its not just the drugs, the rampant nationalism, the propagandistic value to the regime staging the games.  Its the giantism, the combination of so many weird and disparate disciplines, the almost complete loss of the camaraderie that should be part of a great sporting occasion.  When national medal counts take on the significance of GNP you know you have a problem.  If the Olympics hadn't become so politicised perhaps I could let a lot of that pass by.   But it is the politics and the commercialism which demean the whole notion of sport.  The Olympics are one of those institutions which have become the very antithesis of what their founders intended.  What a pity.

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 09:06:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Now you're getting the hang of it.

Freiheit ist immer Freiheit der Andersdenkenden
by redstar on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 09:10:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
We want a country whose government is no more and no less accountable to its people, all of its people, than governments in the West (tm).

No we don't. We want a government that is much more accountable to all its people than governments in the West of myth and legend.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 08:53:55 AM EST
If this is true, don't you think it wiser to concentrate more on working towards this at home?

Note that the folks who present the largest share of the anti-liberal alternative are still talking about workers in France, not theocrats on the other side of the planet.

Not a damn thing about Tibet.

Wonder why that is?

Freiheit ist immer Freiheit der Andersdenkenden

by redstar on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 09:10:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If this is true, don't you think it wiser to concentrate more on working towards this at home?

Is an Europe-crossing semi-religious event partly invented by the Nazis ahead of a multinational commercial event in our number one source of cheap labour really not at home?

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 11:21:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"supposedly repressive"?

rather than responding to this, just write in whatever you'd think of a person who wrote of the "supposed torture and human rights violations of the current US government" and screamed in outrage at protests against US policies as conducted by the dupes of the islamofascists.

by MarekNYC on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 10:36:05 AM EST
I can see that the editorial staff of this site makes a certain idea of itself, of progress and of dissent. Perhaps we aren't as fair, balanced and open-minded as we believe ourselves to be, eh?

Here I observe recommendation these past few weeks puff pieces about the Dalai Lama and Tibet relative to the PRC and Beijing '08. Then I see a lot of bad-faithed derision of a topical and relevant to the EU post, which unlike the puff pieces is balanced with criticism of the PRC as well.

Perhaps we ought to re-examine the editorial policy here, as well as these certain ideas we have of ourselves?  


Freiheit ist immer Freiheit der Andersdenkenden

by redstar on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 10:38:10 AM EST
It has nothing to do with editorial policy, in fact I am not aware of any such thing.

Any front pagers who have responded here have done so as individuals, we don't collaborate behind the scenes to give a 'line' with which we must all respond to diaries.

I've given my view here and elsewhere on what I think of the protests and what I think of the Olympics. My personal view. Ditto for other front pagers and other contributers.

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 11:02:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Some re-examination on your part is seriously in order, in my view.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 11:08:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Was that really necessary?

The core of evil is a lack of empathy
by Nomad on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 11:28:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Why not? I consider myself a friend of redstar's. If I can't tell him what I honestly think of the comment I replied to (and my comment is measured compared to his), then what's the point?

Please see my comment here.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 03:37:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If you feel you should.

I only have my little outrage gauge, faulty as it is, that just goes into the red when the arguments gets personal - had it with lana, with Sven, with others. This time it was you. I don't really care that redstar's comment is pretty far out, in my perspective, and that it was incongruously targeted against the community moderation - a type of conspirational reasoning of which I've (also) become extremely weary. Still, I'd prefer to choose reason above another personally directed snipe as a return, friend or not, heated debate or not, measured or not - perfectly knowing I'm not infallible.

But that's just me.

The core of evil is a lack of empathy

by Nomad on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 04:39:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's not just you, and it's a fair comment you make.

But you're wrong to see my remark as a snipe against redstar. It's just my honest reaction to his comment that I think is way over the top.

Of course, I could refrain. The occasions now on which I think it better to refrain from commenting are now becoming more numerous than those on which it appears safe. I'd like to think it's possible to speak frankly to redstar. Perhaps I'm wrong.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 04:55:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I should say here that there was more than a little putting words into my mouth and intent into those words than is to my taste, in my humble opinion.

Quite frankly, I saw and still see this thread as having quite quickly descended into a long series of posts in bad faith. For one thing, the whole first section of the diary was a rant about protestors inappopriately tarnishing the olympic games, and my view on the political grandstanding going on, which coming from some of these guys is the ultimate in hypocrisy and you know it. I didn't say PRC until like the fifth paragraph, and I didn't refer to Tibet until the seventh, which is why I found it odd to be accused of overemphasizing those issues when in fact, I was ranting simply about inappopriate forum and form of protest. And, further underlining this was the video to which I linked of M.-G. Buffet, approvingly, which voiced pretty much exactly my view on the matter.

And yet, with the exception of antonin's thing on the modern Olympics not being worthy of the respect I accord it, an opinion that i obviously don't agree with but can see the point, what else do I see? A bunch of aggresively posted anti-PRC stuff, a Tian An Men square reference here, military being used to crush worker strikes (without of course details) there, and on top why not some misleading and sometimes completely bullshit economic statistics about the PRC, comparisons of the Olympics to Nazi ideals, and many more. Far too much to even begin to address.

Clearly carry-overs from other threads on Tibet, than being directly related to this diary. That much was clear to me.

And what were those threads? Well, to be honest, I wasn't much party to the big flame war, as you know. I came after that war had died dowm, simply pointed out a fact about the person in question, that he had called me a liar with no foundation and that he was now doing it to others, something to which I'll have you know I take strong exception. For my trouble there, I was firmly rebuked. And on the thread where our Dalai Lama gbcw fan called me a liar, I saw pro-Dalai Lama sources of data and commentary accepted without question by the vast majority of commentators, those of us providing data and commentary to the contrary (and I wasn't the only one, actually "a swedish kind of death" providedthe best stuff) our cites were ridiculed, discredited out of hand without explanation, and for my troubles I was called a liar.
I don't recall the rebukes back then like the ones I received subsequently.

These are the things, then, that on this subject and those which surround it, that I formally reproach of this site:

  1. uneven treatment of commentators (calling others liars not worthy of rebuke; pointing out that one has called others liars, otoh, being so worthy);
  2. arbitrary treatment of competing citations largely informed by personal bias (Tsering Shakya's book on Tibet definitive, Michael Parenti's book on the theocracy which preceded the PRC's re-establishment of chinese control over Tibet "written by a hack");
  3. casual employment of idees recues in the face of counterfactual evidence (as in "the dalai lama is a nice guy, now way is feudal theocracy what his people are pushing for, or "of course the PRC is not socialism in any way shape or form," something you'll have to explain to a few of my friends from the PRC who are socialists.)
  4. uneven and uncritical evaluation, also due to personal bias, of competing claims (for instance, Bhutan's "Gross National Happiness" stunt is proof positive that Tibet's closest ally (and closest in social organization as well) is just great! but "socialism with chinese characteristics" is a PR stunt.

I see these same tendancies on display on this thread as well. Thus my reaction. If you thought I was trying to be a martyr, that isn't the case. I sincerely think on this particular set of subjects, namely the PRC, Tibet and protests surrounding the games, there is a long series of more or less intolerant blind spots for a fair number of regular contributors on this site.

I'm a regular contributor with a left viewpoint, not just on this (with my view essentially being the PCF party line, which you would know if you had clicked through that link) but on virtually everything else. So I can only imagine how someone who isn't a lefty, and isn't a regular who knows all you guys, would handle the treatment I've been watching unfold on this particular subject.

Just my two centimes.

Freiheit ist immer Freiheit der Andersdenkenden

by redstar on Tue Apr 8th, 2008 at 11:44:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I should say here that there was more than a little putting words into my mouth and intent into those words than is to my taste, in my humble opinion.

Same back to you. You did it in the diary, and still haven't come clean on it in the comments. You did it in all four of your points above. You also mix up different persons.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Wed Apr 9th, 2008 at 04:39:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
When your first comment on this thread, before I even say a word outsid