European Tribune

A needed place for "anti-Americanism"

by euamerican
Thu May 15th, 2008 at 12:09:18 PM EST

Last fall, I wanted to do a social constructive study of the label "anti-Americanism" and deconstruct the various and numerous meanings of "anti-Americanism." As a social constructivist, I saw that the "anti-Americanism" label has many different meanings and most of those meanings were negative connotations in their definitions. In other words, "anti-Americanism is bad" and the use of this label almost always appeared to be malign a speaker with dictators and despotic regimes: Fidel Castro, Saddam Hussein, Osama bin Laden, Hugo Chavez, and the Soviet Union.

However, the label of "anti-American" was being defined in very broad ways to include legitimate, necessary and good faith criticisms of its American culture, its foreign policy, its actions both domestically and internationally, its government, and the like. It appeared tp me that ANY speech that is critical of America is now labeled "anti-Americanism."

The effects of this broad definition of "anti-Americanism" appeared to not be directed at those that wished America's destruction, but at speakers that had never demonstrated any love for dictators and despotic regimes, those speakers that expressed legitimate and even needed criticism of American foreign policy, its culture, its foreign policy, and its actions. This use of the "anti-Americanism" label appeared to attempt to malign legitimate speakers with legitimate criticisms against American action in legitimate opposition to American actions with the Soviet Union, Communist Cuba and ever al-Qaeda.


There appears to be yet another use of the "anti-Americanism" label, especially in Europe. This use is similar to the use of the "anti-American" label to beat down speech that is critical of American action, but is use to keep European leaders in line with the American status quo. Those brave and good souls that exposed, investigated, and spoke out against the abductions of people off of European streets by the CIA and "renditions" for torture by agents of the American government were described as "anti-Americans" - which, by default, meant that they were actually "hateful of America" and "supporters of" people like Osama bin Laden.

In this instance of the use of the "anti-American" label was intended to be as a potent weapon to shut up people like Dick Marty. We should be thankful that these brave Europeans did not fold in the face of the anti-American weapon.

See just what utter nonsense this it...and have you ever wondered why criticism directed at Russia, China, or the European Union do not carry powerful labels like criticism directed at America does?

The truth is that there is a needed and necessary place for anti-Americanism in the context of legitimate political discourse. Also, to speak in an anti-American manner does not, in any way, shape or form, mean that you support such despotic regimes as Communist Cuba, nor does it mean that you want the destruction of America. Without anti-Americanism, there would be opposition to torture, the death penalty, "gitmo" and the CIA renditions, or injustices that Americans perpetrate against other Americans. Those that stood up to American policies in Europe, especially with regard to the CIA prisons, are very brave for doing so, and this bravery is apparent in their ability to withstand that attacks on them as "anti-Americans."

Again, not all "anti-Americanism" is bad, but is needed for legitimate political discourse. Labels, like every other meaning in especially political discourse, are not real, and are constructed by people for various reasons. The "anti-Americanism" label is one label that is constructed for the purpose of beating back criticism of ANY American action or policy. Yet, the ability to stand up to America's bad behavior in Europe and elsewhere in the world it the kind of anti-Americanism that is needed to call American leaders out for their bad behavior. And - it does not make one a supporter of dictators and despotic regimes to be critical of America either- that is just nonsense!

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I like the last phrase. There's a bit of an irony here:

it does not make one a supporter of dictators and despotic regimes to be critical of America

Actually, more and more, being a supporter of "America" is to also be a supporter of a despotic regime.

"C'est un scandale !"

by redstar on Thu May 15th, 2008 at 12:46:55 PM EST
Actually, more and more, being a supporter of "America" is to also be a supporter of a despotic regime.

Actually, the accusation of supporting despotic regimes (based in truth in my opinion) has been around a long long time.  I can't say such support is any more prevalent today than it was fifty to seventy-five years ago, however.  I also suspect that America is not the only guilty party among world powers, past and present.

I can swear there ain't no heaven but I pray there ain't no hell. _ Blood Sweat & Tears

by Gringo (stargazing camel at aoldotcom) on Thu May 15th, 2008 at 10:53:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
... a supporter of a despotic regime that it sees as such.

The US government, on the other hand, seems to go through periods where it rarely sees a dictator without seeing at the same time a rationalization for supporting that dictator.

Of course, I know that using the language in a way that does not accept the frame that USG=America ... a specific instance of a frame much beloved of dictators and tyrants across the world and through history ... could be accused of confusing the issue.

Indeed, under the current USG and the USG=America frame, rejecting that frame is an Anti-American Activity.


Utsukushikereba sore de ii

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Fri May 16th, 2008 at 01:12:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Indeed, under the current USG and the USG=America frame, rejecting that frame is an Anti-American Activity.

Agreed.


I can swear there ain't no heaven but I pray there ain't no hell. _ Blood Sweat & Tears

by Gringo (stargazing camel at aoldotcom) on Fri May 16th, 2008 at 09:44:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I can see how a person can be opposed to policies, systems, and the decisions of leaders.  Don't known how you can be anti- a whole country, though.  Esp. one as large and diverse as America.  Whether it's a label used in accusation or co-opted by the accused, the phrase itself is an example of intellectual laziness.  It side-steps the real issues, our problems and their origins and solutions, in favor of schoolyard bullying.   I'm anti-just about every thing my government does.  Wildly so.  I'm hardly anti-American, though.  Because I look around me and see people and communities and values that are not synonymous with disaster capitalism, warmongering, arrogance, and selfishness.  

Also, I think at this point the current American government/system is a despotic regime as bad or worse that those you list at top.  And we should not hesitate to make that bold claim.

Also, it is silly to compare anti-Americanism and Communism.  One is a system.  One is a place.  Apples and oranges.

Anti-Americanism is bad.  Not because opposing our atrocious policies is bad.  Precisely the opposite.  Claiming "anti-Americanism" implicitly suggests that there is such a real ideology or mythology as "Americanism" and that it 1) is synonymous with the ideas you oppose, 2) does not include ideas you embrace and 3) is particular to and essential to the country we call America (The US).  None of these assertions can be entirely true, so we can just write off your anti-Americanism as an irrational emotional reaction based on your wrongheaded ideas about us.  Meanwhile, there are still very real policies and worldviews out there that are dangerous and should be opposed.

It would be more productive (and helpful to those of us who happen to live here) if those who embrace the anti-American label could be a bit more specific about what exactly it is you oppose and what the better alternative is and leave the passing judgement on an entire country of people who have little control over where they were born and who have wildly varying ideas about the world part out of it.  


"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."

by poemless on Thu May 15th, 2008 at 01:17:49 PM EST
Isn't the point of the article that the label "anti-american" isn't adopted by those criticising, it is applied by those who are criticised ?

They turn a specific critique into a mere prejudice so that it can be dismissed and ignored. It's shooting the messanger because you don't like the message.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu May 15th, 2008 at 01:30:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, of course.  But while the diarist rightly points that out, they continue to use the phrase, in a kind of co-opting manner, rather than doing away with it altogether.

The diarist correctly observes that the phrase is used as a weapon (to shoot the messenger), but then goes on to say that there is a place for anti-Americanism.  What I am saying is that the term anti-Americanism should just be taken off the table entirely.

It's not entirely clear, but it seems to me that some misguided assumptions remain.

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."

by poemless on Thu May 15th, 2008 at 01:46:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't know if I made this clear, but from doing some basic research, I found that "anti-Americanism" as being used in a very broad sense. For example, people that investigated and spoke out against the CIA renditions were described as "anti-American." Likewise, those that oppose the war in Iraq were described as "anti-American" and this included good faith dissent with the Iraq War. So, the "anti-American" label appeared to be a kind of club to beat down those with ANY criticism of American actions and policies.

Excuse me, but as an American, I really take offense that I should somehow support renditions, useless war, and torture to be a "loyal American."

by euamerican on Thu May 15th, 2008 at 03:01:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think we are in complete agreement.  And I have never said that ANYONE should somehow support renditions, useless war, and torture to be a "loyal American."

I suppose I've done an attrocious job of trying to make my point, which was about linguistics and not about politics.  So I'll stop.  Forgive any misunderstanding.  

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."

by poemless on Thu May 15th, 2008 at 03:05:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Given my track record of misunderstandings here - I should probably just stop altogether.

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."
by poemless on Thu May 15th, 2008 at 03:05:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think your point is entirely clear.  To be anti-American is a bit like being anti-water.  America is so large and diverse it is almost a non-sensical term to use.

But no one I know describes themselves as being anti-American - although they may aspects of US policy and feel the distinction between the Bush regime and the US was diminished somewhat when he was re-elected.

The term is ONLY used by SOME Americans to describe others who do not support their vision of what America should be about - not the huge diversity of what it actually is.

As such it is a rhetorical device - to blacken those you are opposed to with a view many would not comprehend or support - but which has nothing to do with the specifics of the topic under discussion.

As such it is a throwback to the McCartheyite Un-American activities committee -  which defined America as being co-terminous with the dominant narrative and was designed to crush dissenting views.

That is what I think anyway, after the guts of a bottle of wine, and I challenge you to prove otherwise with a bottle of wine under your belt....

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Thu May 15th, 2008 at 04:56:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, I'm so glad I'm not the only one who struggles to be coherent here after a bottle of wine. Not tonight tho', I have a lot of booze to drink in the next couple of days so it's a night off for my liver.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu May 15th, 2008 at 05:01:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I have to adjudicate at a major karaoke competition in a neighbouring town tomorrow night. Holidays in the sun are at stake.

There will be a slap-up meal for the judges and an open tab at the bar in recompense. They even offered a night at the hotel. But there comes a time in every old man's life that the very very distant possibilty of an eligible redhead is totally overcome by the thought of waking up happily at home. But I  keep my options open, as always....

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Thu May 15th, 2008 at 05:20:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
you calling me incoherent????

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Thu May 15th, 2008 at 05:23:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sven is the guy who is repeating himself.. hic ...

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Thu May 15th, 2008 at 05:24:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I ahev never known duplicashun here at ET. ET, I shurmise, is shingular it itsh uniquenesh.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Thu May 15th, 2008 at 05:36:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
After two pipes and a Nordc berries latte, I must agree ;-)

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Thu May 15th, 2008 at 05:04:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
depending on what's in the pipes you'd probably agree to anything right now...

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Thu May 15th, 2008 at 05:22:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Strangely enough, your knowledge of the pipes is at the Daily Mirror level. Obstreperousness has always been a by-product for me.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Thu May 15th, 2008 at 05:40:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I can't bear to look at the Mirror, Daily.  But you Obstreperous? You're a pussy cat really.

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Thu May 15th, 2008 at 05:57:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well thank you Frank. I'm fine with being seen as a pussy cat, except the responsibility for surreptitious modifications of how things work. It is fine being the idiot, but being a mast appals ;-)

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Thu May 15th, 2008 at 06:06:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
... it is also a tool in helping to avoid thinking about things that supporters of a political movement that has been steadily pushing the US government away from Republican government and in the direction of fascist dictatorship would rather not think about.


Utsukushikereba sore de ii
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Fri May 16th, 2008 at 01:15:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Actually, what you say makes perfect sense.

I can swear there ain't no heaven but I pray there ain't no hell. _ Blood Sweat & Tears
by Gringo (stargazing camel at aoldotcom) on Thu May 15th, 2008 at 11:40:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If the definition of "anti-Americanism" is SOOO broad that it includes good faith political opposition to American policies and actions, which would include dissent and opposition to the Iraq War, CIA renditions, and even independent European defense policy - then not all "anti-Americanism" is bad.

If "anti-Americanism" means such things as opposing water-boarding and torture, then that is good and productive anti-Americanism. Otherwise, the "anti-Americanism" label becomes a weapon to crush dissent and opposition to American actions and policies...

by euamerican on Thu May 15th, 2008 at 03:07:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm going to take a contrarian view here and first of all say I don't mind at all when I am called "anti-American," and in fact take it as a sort of badge of pride, especially when so called in a language other than American-english.

I know poemless hates when I generalize here on the subject, so I will try to choose my words carefully, but there is for me a use for the term as a compliment, when it is employed to describe criticism of America. And by America, I mean not just the America of the current regime in Washington which, lets face it, is pretty egregious in its distillation of some of the more obnoxious forms of American exceptionalism. I mean America as understood both by the elites which control its government and its economic power centers and by the vast white middle classes which supply both its labor.

If one could talk, making much sense, of a German Ideology fully 150 years ago, before even Germany was unified, certainly it is possible to talk of an American ideology, defined by its dominant classes, as regards the US today.

"America" is a weltenshauung, and as a weltenschuung, it can be seen as rather selfish ("neo-liberal" is you will) and unconcerned by the truly common good and by solidarity. It is highly naive in its view of itself, the outside world and its relationship to that outside world, with the elites naively thinking in imperial terms of an "American Century" which is ahead of it, rather than well behind it, and a politically naive great middle class which thinks of America as a beacon of hope, freedom and democracy for the rest of the world. It is beholder to an economic ideology which is ultimately no less doomed to failure than the command economy ideology of the early Communists, and it is utterly unconcerned by the lot of the poor, the vulnerable, the downtrodden, both within its borders and outside of it. Above all, it plays by one set of rules and expects others to play by the rules it (and only it) imagines it plays by but doesn't.

Are all Americans like this? Certainly not. But, as a practical matter, whether consciously or not, if you are looking at a white American in the top half of the income strata, there's a very good chance, perhaps as high as two out of three chance, that that's what you are looking at.

So, criticism of America? And Americans? I'm ok with being called anti-American, absolutely.

"C'est un scandale !"

by redstar on Thu May 15th, 2008 at 03:42:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Me too. These words have to be said.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Thu May 15th, 2008 at 05:06:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If "anti-Americanism" means such things as opposing water-boarding and torture, then that is good and productive anti-Americanism. Otherwise, the "anti-Americanism" label becomes a weapon to crush dissent and opposition to American actions and policies...

I think we all understand the brow-beating, propaganda version of "anti-country X" that comes from all corners of humanity - it only varies in intensity based on how much power a given group has to promote or enforce their views.

Being "anti-country X" means you believe country Y is better.

We all live on the same planet, and our most pressing problems operate at the level of the planet, which is why local identities need to be obsoleted. The exercise is anti-intellectual and emotionally driven - "anti X" and "pro Y" is the sucker's path to self-worth.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Thu May 15th, 2008 at 08:16:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yeah, what he said.

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."
by poemless on Fri May 16th, 2008 at 10:58:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And of course, there is the McCarthyite phrase "unamerican"

This column then talks about another form of differentiation,  full booded American proposed by Kathleen Parker at TownHall, , as opposed to those "Obama-types". This gets a full dissection over at If I ran the zoo and then he points out exactly where this thinking comes from, and it's quite chilling.

Worth a read.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu May 15th, 2008 at 01:26:43 PM EST
Heh.  Phrases such as "unamerican" are like "the war on terror."  I read them and don't even know what they mean.  It's all connotation and zero substance.  Empty linguistic calories, if you will.  TheTwinkies of political discourse.  :)

Of course I can say that now that we're no longer hunting down Communists.  We're no longer hunting down commies are we?  If I were born 40 years earlier, I suppose I would know exactly what  "unamerican" means: "they've found an excuse to lock me up."  In the same way I guess most Arab people know exactly what the GWOT means...

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."

by poemless on Thu May 15th, 2008 at 01:36:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The Twinkies of political discourse.

(golf clap) I like that. :)

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Thu May 15th, 2008 at 08:59:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
As a half-blooded American I'm in for an identity crisis. Must be all that inbreeding.
by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Thu May 15th, 2008 at 01:42:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I also believe that 20 years of vocal American conservative minority and Republican dominance has mainstreamed Southern culture to where it is now the dominant American culture. Check out this paper by Andrew Moravcsik on America's hypocrisy on human rights, which entertains influence of Southern culture on American politics: http://www.princeton.edu/~amoravcs/library/paradox.doc
by euamerican on Thu May 15th, 2008 at 03:35:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Minority?

That's not been my experience.

To be sure, most people's political sensibilities are pretty much on autopilot, basically groping from one issue to the next without any real ideological bearing.

But, those Americans who are politically aware? Definitely, the right-wing, retrograde dominate, and not just in the GOP.

"C'est un scandale !"

by redstar on Thu May 15th, 2008 at 03:45:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I tried to read it but the langauge is rich in the obscurant jargon of academia seemingly designed to prevent communication with those outside that particular discipline. It's not the worst example I've seen, Judith Gutler's Gender Troulbe was easily the worst, written almost entirely in meta-language.

Are they afraid of writing plain english ?

Anyway, as somebody asked recently elsewhere, what on earth do southerners, culturally tied to those who resisted the Union of the United States of America, have to do with the ideals expressed by the founding fathers ? Or, what valid opinion should they have on the ACLU ? Beyond STFU that is.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu May 15th, 2008 at 03:52:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thank you Helen.

I can swear there ain't no heaven but I pray there ain't no hell. _ Blood Sweat & Tears
by Gringo (stargazing camel at aoldotcom) on Thu May 15th, 2008 at 11:12:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
European Tribune - A needed place for "anti-Americanism"
dictators and despotic regimes: Fidel Castro, Saddam Hussein, Osama bin Laden, Hugo Chavez, and the Soviet Union.
Why is Hugo Chavez in this list? Last I checked he was democratically elected.
by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Fri May 16th, 2008 at 05:15:51 AM EST
That would make him "despotic".

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri May 16th, 2008 at 05:23:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Is he though? I'd say this is debatable.
by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Fri May 16th, 2008 at 05:33:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Definitely.

He's just an uppity halfbreed, so he must be depicted as a despot.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri May 16th, 2008 at 05:44:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The members of the list with overwhelming evidence that they belong there ... those are the ones to debate.

Debating the ones that are arguable ... that's not such a good idea. It gives an impression of being weak on despotism.

I know that it gives that impression ... Fox News, ABC News and CNN (Domestic) told me so.


Utsukushikereba sore de ii

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sat May 17th, 2008 at 03:41:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
CNN (Domestic)

I'm pretty sure that should read "CNN (Domestique)". Its been a long time since the last TDF (but, luckily, another one will soon be here).


Utsukushikereba sore de ii

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sat May 17th, 2008 at 03:42:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Bin Laden has a regime?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri May 16th, 2008 at 05:32:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Wasn't he alleged to "own" the Taliban back in 2001?

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri May 16th, 2008 at 05:45:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yup. And he was working with Hussein on those nukes they found as well.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri May 16th, 2008 at 05:49:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Colman:
Bin Laden has a regime?

And it lives in DC.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Fri May 16th, 2008 at 02:10:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's a symbiotic relationship. It's worked out spectacularly for both parties.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Fri May 16th, 2008 at 02:47:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I was using "dictators and despotic regimes" that American cons find offensive....
by euamerican on Fri May 16th, 2008 at 07:30:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Anti-globo-corp destructive capitalism, Oh what the Hell anti-Illuminati, there I said it.

Bilderburg meets in Washington DC June 5-8.  No doubt the advance the agenda of world domination.
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/may2008/051608_bilderberg_meet.htm

Here in the US more people are coming to realize government and business are merging into one fascist entity.  Left/right politics become meaningless when confronted with the permanent rich/poor caste type society about to fall apart.
http://www.amazon.com/Superclass-Global-Power-Elite-Making/dp/0374272107

by Lasthorseman (Lasthorseman@comcast.net) on Fri May 16th, 2008 at 08:01:23 PM EST


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