Thursday Open Thread

by Jerome a Paris
Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 12:11:55 PM EST

What's up (apart from oil prices, that is)?


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JPMorgan Swap Deals Spur Probe as Default Stalks Alabama County

May 22 (Bloomberg) -- As nighttime temperatures plunged in Birmingham, Alabama, last October, Dora Bonner had a choice: either pay the gas bill so she could heat the home she shares with four grandchildren, or send the Birmingham Water Works a $250 check for her water and sewer bill.

Bonner, who is 73 and lives on Social Security, decided to keep the house from freezing.

``I couldn't afford the water, so they shut it off,'' she says.

Bonner's sewer bills have risen more than fourfold in the past decade. So have those of others in Jefferson County, which has 659,000 residents and includes Birmingham, the state's largest city.

What's threatening to increase them even more isn't the high cost of treating waste; it's the way county officials chose to finance the $3.2 billion in debt they took on to build a new sewer system. The county relied on advice from a bank, JPMorgan Chase & Co., to arrange its funding, rather than use competitive bidding.

Like homeowners who took out mortgages they couldn't afford and didn't understand, Jefferson County officials rejected fixed- rate debt and borrowed instead at rates that varied with the market.

The county paid banks $120 million in fees -- six times the prevailing rate -- for $5.8 billion in interest-rate swaps. That was supposed to protect the county from rising rates for their bonds. Lending rates went the wrong way, putting the county $277 million deeper into debt.

Read the whole sorry tale.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 12:20:15 PM EST
There have been similar worries following the privatisation of water in the UK. After much grumbling, protections have been put in place that people cannot be cut off, but baliffs will be sent in to recover goods-to-the-price-of in such circumstances.

It's more humane. But, such are the vagiaries of the market which we all agree cannot be bucked and is always efficient.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 12:57:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Water privatization seems to have been a disaster in every case I've come across, whether in London or Atlanta or wherever else.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 01:00:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No, actually it's been very profitable.

Uh, how are you defining disaster?

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 01:03:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I know, I know.  I was defining disaster as, you know, inflated bills, infrastructure ruined by lack of investment (and the waste involved), etc.

But I s'pose if you want to look at it that way, then I guess you're right.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 01:16:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
$0.016 per cubic foot seems to be the rate in Colorado Springs. But it's going to go up soon, because people are conserving and because new home building has diminished.
http://www.csu.org/customer/rates/page17755.html

It would be interesting to compare domestic water rates around the world...

by asdf on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 02:30:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I used to love the place. I heard that Michelle's (?) ice cream is gone. True?

Water in Stevenson, WA (city system)is $.024 per cubic foot after the initial 400 cubic feet at $.04 per. Rate hasn't changed in a bunch of years.

paul spencer

by paul spencer (spencerinthegorge AT yahoo DOT com) on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 04:34:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Michelle's ice cream and candy store in Colorado Springs is indeed gone, but that general area is in much better shape--businesswise--than it was a few years ago. Downtown is Booming, in fact...
by asdf on Fri May 30th, 2008 at 02:11:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Not for the shareholders and especially not for the boards.

It was standard practice under Thatcher's privatisation program for the ministers responsible for pushing the legislation through would suddenly - and completely unexpectedly - be given jobs on the boards of the newly privatised corporations they'd created.

The economy is not run for the likes of you or me or people who can't pay their inflated bills after 'competition' has had its way with them.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 01:04:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, that's unsurprising.  Crazy Maggie did, after all, have bigger balls than anybody else in the Commons.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 01:18:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hey, that reminds of something else in recent history. Wait a second (scritch, scratch, scowl) I have it! The collapse of the Soviet Union and the wholesale theft privatisation of public assets.
by PIGL on Fri May 23rd, 2008 at 08:21:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It is quite unusual to see that the world leaders in privatising water around the world have been the two big French utilities, Lyonnaise des Eaux (now Suez) and Compagnie Générale des Eaux (now Veolia via Vivendi). Unexpectedly for France, the water sector has long been privatised and run under long term concession given by local authorities (actually, it used to be by local representatives of the central government, until the decentralisation of the 80s, when this was transferred to local governments, with the result that corruption skyrocketed, as the local guys were much less experienced to negotiate these contracts).

The lesson in that is that you need someone extremely powerful to negotiate with  such private groups (like the highly centralised French State, old style), or you get corruption and higher prices.

On the other hand, water distribution in third world countries is so hopelessly skewed towards the (small) middle class at the expense of the (much larger) poor that privatisation, well managed, could bring real progress for the poor that already pay horrendous prices for water. Of course, the "well managed bit" requires good governance, and competent governments, so, as in other sectors, it's not the best reform to improve services when government doesn't work already.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 02:44:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Now, that would be a good job for the Fed : stabilize the muni markets rather than piss money away to their investment banking friends.


Facts, selfish little bastards. They don't even care about your feelings.
by Francois in Paris on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 07:34:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Hamish McRae: Don't believe everything George Soros says

If George Soros thinks Britain is likely to have a recession, it must be so? Er, no

(...)

I think at a time like this it is important to be measured. This is not unknown territory. We have a lot of experience of post-war economic cycles and you have to be profoundly gloomy to believe that this one will be outside the boundaries that these define. I would go further: you have to be profoundly gloomy to believe that the next few years will be as bad as the 1970s, in economic terms the most difficult of the post-war decades. Then there was double-digit inflation and a double-dip recession in most developed countries, followed in the 1980s by double-digit unemployment in many of them as inflation was slowly ground out of the system.

(...)

This time it looks as though unemployment may rise a little but to nothing like the early 1980s or early 1990s. Instead it will be the living standards of most of us, those in jobs and those who have retired that will take the strain.

In one sense this is welcome: much better that we should all feel some burden of adjustment rather than have this burden carried disproportionately by the unemployed. But actually there will still be a big random element. People in the public sector will be better protected than in the private; pensioners with indexed pensions will do particularly well.

All is fine, says Hamish McRae. Is he NuLabor?


In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 12:29:53 PM EST
No, Hamish McRae is a real neo-liberal Kool-Aid drinker. His inability to understand that everything he knows and loves is crashing around his ears is almost funny to read.

The Independent is quite a good paper but two of its correspondents, McRae and Dominc Lawson, are such right-wing hacks that I worry if I ever agree with a single word they say.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 12:52:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Jerome a Paris:
We have a lot of experience of post-war economic cycles and you have to be profoundly gloomy to believe that this one will be outside the boundaries that these define. I would go further: you have to be profoundly gloomy to believe that the next few years will be as bad as the 1970s, in economic terms the most difficult of the post-war decades. Then there was double-digit inflation and a double-dip recession in most developed countries, followed in the 1980s by double-digit unemployment in many of them as inflation was slowly ground out of the system.
Hmmm, we're entering the seventh post-war decade, so all other things being equal it has a 14% chance of being the worst post-war decade, and a 28% chance of being at least as bad as the 1970s. Doesn't seem to me "profoundly gloomy". A 10% chance might make it "gloomy" but only a 5% or even a 1% chance qualifies as "profoundly gloomy".

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 01:07:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
He's not talking about the worst decade or not, he's talking about whether it will be worse or not than the 70s, which he describes as pretty bad. So he's saying it's unlikely to be as bad as that, and that being as bad as that would be pretty gloomy, which is correct.

I just disagree with the reality of the assertion, not that it is an incorrect one to make.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 05:02:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
When he says
you have to be profoundly gloomy to believe that the next few years will be as bad as the 1970s, in economic terms the most difficult of the post-war decades
I don't understand how you can read
He's not talking about the worst decade or not.
The worst (most difficult) decade is exactly what he's talking about.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 05:38:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

To be fair, Jerome, he doesn't say "all is fine" at all; he just says he doesn't think it will be as bad as the 1970s. He thinks unemployment will increase somewhat and that most people's living standards will go down. He thinks this is better than putting the burden just on the unemployed. You might disagree with him - but at least disagree with what he actually says.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 03:51:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
As I point out in a parallel comment he's taking a bet with 5:2 odds.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 04:29:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I only read the headline. Isn't that what you're supposed to do nowadays?
The rest is just filler.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 04:58:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If you read between the lines, he's really saying 'the City will not be hurt much, all is okay'

And he IS saying "we won't be hurting much ('we' being, as noted above, the City), which is still a highly optimistic vision.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 05:00:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Ah, I see you've decided your first response was perhaps not the best approach :-) and have decided to look at the "filler" - always a good idea when criticising people, as in your usually excellent detailed critiques.

I still don't think you're being fair, he doesn't say "we will be ok" - his conclusion is: "But even if Mr Soros does prove right I don't think we should jump out of windows. A shallow recession, with the pressure widely spread, is not a catastrophe."

To say something is not a catastrophe is not to say that it's fine or OK for "us". He says there will be difficulties and most people's living standards will decline.

This is not to say I agree with him, just trying to be fair.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 05:19:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
but would insist that in today's context, arguing about a "shallow recession" is being wildly optimistic and in denial.

It's like the pundits that say that oil is overpriced and claim that the "real" price today shouls be $60 or $80. You should just not forget the bit of background whereby they were saying, when oil was at $50, that it was overpriced and that the "real" price was $35.

Denial. And the track record that goes with it.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 05:28:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The case for decoupling has not been refuted yet. What we see looks a lot like the Asian crisis in reverse, with us as debtors and them as creditors.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 05:31:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Jerome a Paris:
Denial. And the track record that goes with it.

Have neoliberal economists ever been right, about anything?

Serious question. If they're batting a clean zero, we should at least be honest about that.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 07:44:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Ah, so all "neo-liberal economists" (self-described as such, or defined according to what criteria?) have been wrong about everything. This makes things so easy doesn't it? All one has to do is jeer at them (whoever they are) from time to time and "honestly" assert that their record continues to be zero.

If you just want to  express your solidarity with those who oppose neo-lib economosts, I suppose it might help the feel-good factor, like many of your other "criticisms". As I indicated, I prefer the kind of reasoned, detailed criticism, backed with evidence, which is typical of Jerome's critiques here. But that takes a bit of work, something not so often evident in your airy dismissals of various groups and individuals.

Of course it isn't a "serious question", because it's not clear who would be included under that label, and who has surveyed the record of everything they've said?  And whose judgment of that record would be used ? If one were serious one would try framing the allegation a little more carefully, and acknowledging that they might well have been right about a few things, but that some of us disapproved of the outcomes.

 

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Fri May 23rd, 2008 at 08:19:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Fuelling fears over high energy costs

Energy prices are rising faster here than anywhere in Europe, MPs were warned.

Customer champion Energywatch blamed rocketing bills on lack of competition - 10 years ago there were 20 energy firms vying for business, now there are just six.

Energywatch chief Allan Asher told the Commons Business and Enterprise Committee: "There is a myth about vigorous price competition between suppliers.

"For the product they most actively sell - direct debit for 'dual fuel' gas and electricity - the price difference between the cheapest and the most expensive is about £30 a year, a few pence a week."

What's funny here is that if you had perfect competition, prices should be identical between all suppliers (in theory).

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 12:32:40 PM EST
I'm pretty sure there was a letter in the Guardian about the stupidity of the British energy market only recently.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 12:55:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But, as you know, there's really no such thing as perfect competition.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 12:58:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's why we need more reform, more sacrifice, more privation, more flexibility.

Forward comrades into the glorious free-market dawn of the ever-generous capitalist revolution!

I'm not even sure if this is irony any more.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 07:41:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
(pounds left side of chest with right fist)

England Prevails.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 07:46:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I dont understand the thinking of British policy makers.

They see a problem created by policy and instead recommened MORE of the same to solve it. Its like using petrol to put out a fire!

Of course, the definition of madness is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.

by EvilEuropean (evileuropean@googlemail.com) on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 01:25:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, but when you have drunk so much neo-liberal kool-aid that you still think that the White House is a repository of widom and the only useful function for the British Government is to joyfully anticipate every whim of the US president, then it all makes so much sense.

It's the reason why the Labour party will get its backside kicked in the Crewe By-election tonight and will lose the next election, the irony being that the alternative is genuinely worse.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 02:05:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Could you supply any evidence that anyone in the Labour leadership actually believes "that the White House is a repository of widom [sic]" ?

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 03:56:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Marketism is just like communism. It is always right. If reality doesn't match what the orthodoxy says, then reality is wrong.


Facts, selfish little bastards. They don't even care about your feelings.
by Francois in Paris on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 03:25:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
They are both axiomatic systems that assume their premises.  This allows both to make facile deductions that are favorable to their respective views of the world.  This is similar to Christian theology. This gives both a "feel" that makes them more plausible to their target audiences. Marxism has the advantage in internal coherence.  Liberal and Neo-Liberal Economics have the advantage in direct appeal to the vanity and self interest of the wealthy.  When adopted by governments, political entities or social organizations each spends considerable effort delegitimizing any criticism of the assumptions, which is where all axiomatic systems are most vulnerable. IMHO, in the US the similarities in axiomatic structure between fundamentalist Christian theology and Neo-Liberal Economics rallies fundamentalists to the support of Neo-Liberal Economics when it's axioms are attacked.  I suspect they have come to view the "Invisible Hand" as the Left Hand of God.

If sanity be culturally normative, then by the norms of this culture I claim insanity.
by ARGeezer (argeezer@yahoo.com) on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 04:11:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Didn't Einstein also say "if experiment hadn't confirmed my theory I would have felt sorry for nature because my theory is correct"?

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 04:30:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Einstein had a sense of humor.


Facts, selfish little bastards. They don't even care about your feelings.
by Francois in Paris on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 04:42:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
EvilEuropean:
I dont understand the thinking of British policy makers.

Thinking?

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 05:23:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm curious as to what the actual situation is in Europe regarding the Common Agricultural Policy.  There is an editorial in The Economist (http://www.economist.com/world/europe/displaystory.cfm?story_id=11413126) which predictably takes the French to task for their interventionist policies.  I grew up in a farm town in the midwest, though we didn't do a lot of farming ourselves-just a small field and the occassional cows, pigs, chickens, and a couple of ponies-but many of my friends were farm boys.  Most of them have other kinds of jobs because they family farm got devastated during the 70's and now it is primarily larger corporate-type farms that dominate.

The Economist seems to think that there is no benefit to the protection of local agriculture unless it is "market-oriented".  I'm curious if the sense on the ground is that the CAP is actually a good thing for the European consumer and environment, or whether it is actually some archaic thing that needs to be totally revamped, or is it something else entirely that I just don't see?

My only exposure was my trip through France down to St. Emelion and a couple of days walking and biking around the Bourdeaux region-seemed awfully nice to me.

"I said, 'Wait a minute, Chester, You know I'm a peaceful man...'" Robbie Robertson

by NearlyNormal on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 02:06:32 PM EST
was, from the start, to increase European (starting, of course, with: French) food production - in the early years to alleviate very real shortages. So it was always productivist and not particularly favorable to small farmers.

As the milk "lakes" and butter "mountains" grew, incentives have been changed, with subsidies moving away from production volumes to land area, and away from outright export subsidies.

France protects its high quality food sector via the AOC (appellation d'origine contrôlée - controlled origin denomination) mechanisms which allocate specific areas to specific products, with more stringent standards and ruthless trademark protection.

The CAP was designed for France, to a large extent, but producers in other countries have adapted to (and adopted) it and, if you look at the size of countries, France get fewer subsidies now than most of the big countries.

So, anyway, the explicit goal of CAP was "efficiency", and it has worked in that respect, so the Economist article is quite entertaining to read, of course.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 02:36:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I have to give them credit for high-quality food. Every meal, every 'sandwich' from the market or the boulangerie, every croissant and baguette from the patisserie was somewhere between 'quite good' and 'excellent' during my visit. I can't say the same here, even though we're careful about the food that we buy and where we eat.

paul spencer
by paul spencer (spencerinthegorge AT yahoo DOT com) on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 04:43:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
On the whole my view is that whatever the Economist is against must be a good thing.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 02:38:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, it is disconcerting to agree with them on policy, makes you question your assumptions.

"I said, 'Wait a minute, Chester, You know I'm a peaceful man...'" Robbie Robertson
by NearlyNormal on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 02:41:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm about 3/4 the way through reading James Howard Kunstler's new novel World Made by Hand.

Kunstler's most widely known work is The Long Emergency about how society unravels when oil production doesn't live up to demand. Essentially the World Made by Hand is fictionalized version of The Long Emergency.

The novel is bleak. It is set in upstate New York. The United States has collapsed through a series of events -- war, terrorism, coup d'état -- followed by the flu epidemics and civil strife that winnow out the remaining population. Law disappears, real estate collapses, and towns transform agrarian outposts.

In some ways his book is post-apocalyptic disaster porn. Globalism is dead, of course, and while there is no mention of Europe so far in the novel, there are some things I think that can be extrapolated on the impact to Europe. The U.S. is very spread out, especially the western part of the country. Cities have failed and he hints of ethnic cleansing between groups. Evangelical faith communities are all the rage.

Rural communities that have local agriculture are better off than urban sprawl. Older houses -- built before the 20th century oil economy -- hold up better. Therefore, in Kunstler's world -- European communties may revert back to the 1800s better than most of the United States.

It is an interesting book. The writing is not great and the message is utterly depressing, but it is a very quick read. And somehow making it fiction impacted me more than reading the same thing with his non-fiction.

The message of the post-peak oil U.S. for me is -- I am doomed. I have the wrong skills, wrong house, and wrong supplies for a World Made by Hand. My best bet is to hoard some things, such as matches and spices from Asia, now to barter and trade later.

by Magnifico on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 02:25:07 PM EST
Rural communities that have local agriculture are better off than urban sprawl. Older houses -- built before the 20th century oil economy -- hold up better. Therefore, in Kunstler's world -- European communties may revert back to the 1800s better than most of the United States.

There are technological differences between now and the early 1800's that are not oil-related, the most important of which is electricity.  In fact, the oil economy is not substantially new in that respect. The European economy went through burning wood, then wood cal, then when that ran out started mining coal in earnest, and getting gas from coal mines, then got oil... Electrical technology was only developed in the latter third of the 19th century. So you could argue that the last 150 years have been about building an electricity-based civilization on the back of fossil fuels, which themselves replaced the burning of biomass.

There's no going back to the 1800's, in other words, even if oil runs out we'll be in a better technological environment. The only problem is the sustainability of the population.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 04:37:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
All good points.

Like I mentioned, the "book is post-apocalyptic disaster porn". In Kunstler's post-peak oil U.S., society has broken down sufficiently that the infrastructure has deteriorated, thus there is irregular or no electrical service. He doesn't go into details, but for his setting to work -- electricity does not.

by Magnifico on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 05:22:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Similar story to Alex Scarrow's Last Light - currently at 76 in the UK best-seller list.

'Terrorist' action kills all of the major oil supply points within a matter of days, and a week later most of the UK is dead.

Cheerful stuff, with a side order of traditionally British dystopian rape and murder in your neighbourhood.

I think the ending is too optimistic. People suddenly work out how to grow food, very, very quickly. I can't imagine it happening anything like that quickly after a total collapse - agriculture isn't easy, especially when you have no tools, no experience, and no seeds.

Your book sounds more thorough. Half Light is really just a topical horror pot boiler.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 05:39:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
...is being held at the Eden Project in Cornwall.

Unfortunately, biofuel=green looks like it's being pushed.  Heavily.  :(

by Sassafras on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 03:37:19 PM EST
I think the idea of biofuel = green in government thinking is unravelling before our very eyes.

Shame it took so long

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 03:48:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You wouldn't know it when you look at some of those cars...
by Sassafras on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 03:57:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Mind you, they've sent down ABAG (another bloody arts graduate) reporter who clearly wouldn't be able to ask a sensible question if the polar ice caps depended on it.
by Sassafras on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 03:59:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Why does it seem to you that biofuel is being heavily pushed?  From the show's site:

Greener materials and fuels are hitting the market all the time, with many more on the drawing board. Of course no one knows which technology will win the race which is why we've included a wide selection of cars, ranging from concept models experimenting with hydrogen fuel cells (the Morgan LIFE) to family cars so well designed they do over 60 miles per gallon. Look out for the hybrid vehicles, which use petrol at high speeds and then exhaust-free electricity for city driving.

http://sgcs.edenproject.com/About.html



Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 04:06:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The video news report.  Biofuel=green is repeated several times.

Fair comment, though.  I didn't look at the website.

by Sassafras on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 04:12:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]


keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 04:15:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Ah yes, let's not bother with actually looking at the evidence ( see my comment on one of your usual unsubstantiated allegations above) - that's merely pointless argument - when we are sure we're right.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 04:22:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Asia to cut subsidies as oil hits $135

Asian governments on Thursday moved to cut energy subsidies to protect their finances and those of state-owned energy companies in the face of soaring oil prices.

As crude oil pushed through $135 a barrel for the first time, Taiwan, Malaysia and Indonesia announced plans for urgent action to free prices or cut subsidy costs. China denied rumours of an imminent increase in retail prices, but may relax price controls.

Now that would be a major, major policy change. A welcome one, but a momentous one, with lots of potentially nasty politicla consequences.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 03:55:11 PM EST
A welcome change with nasty political consequences?

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 04:28:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Stability.

That's the real problem with rising oil prices. IMHO, developed countries will do relatively fine. For those countries, oil is a relatively small part of the economy overall and changing the infrastructure to adapt will not be such a great ordeal, assuming somewhat competent leadership : synfuel, EVs, rail, etc. If the popular will is there, it can go very fast. I see no problem at a 100% transition out of oil then fossil carbon in less than 15 years.

But for intermediate economies like a good chuck of Asia, the story is very different. Just developed enough to use a lot of oil and have western-style expectations of standards of living, not developed enough to invest in more capital-intensive solutions.  They need to go for solutions that give them the biggest short-term bang for their buck, solutions which are also the most fuel intensive. And they depend on high growth to maintain their political stability...


Facts, selfish little bastards. They don't even care about your feelings.

by Francois in Paris on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 04:40:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
welcome, because it will help reduce demand
with nasty political consequences because people don't like to be forced to reduce their demand, here or there.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 04:57:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Right now, China is cash rich. It is bloated with monopoly money it needs to spend before they become ever more worthless. So, spending it on oil probably makes sense.

However, I imagine at some point within the next year or two the Chinese may feel obliged to recognise this may not be their wisest long-term policy and re-direct themselves. however, given their failure of water and pollution policy where the commuunist command structure actually frustrates such initiatives, I wonder how succesful they may be. An expensive lesson is in store.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 04:38:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Especially nasty if combined with a decrease in exports to the US.

"The bitterness of low quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten."

This was the motto of an electronics system company for whom I was briefly employed in Los Angeles.  I often think of it when the only product locally available for a particular need is Chinese made. I have been burned a number of times: radios with so little sensitivity they will only pull in the strongest local stations, (think radio gospel), tee shirts with seams that unravel after the second wash and I won't even start on lethal pet food, children's toys, etc.

I wonder if "It is glorious to be rich" is an adequate ideological basis upon which to build an economy.  The Chinese Government does respond to the most embarrassing disasters, sometimes with public executions.  That seems like a rather blunt instrument with which to deal with a complex economy.

If sanity be culturally normative, then by the norms of this culture I claim insanity.

by ARGeezer (argeezer@yahoo.com) on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 05:21:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Goes Back to the Future.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 05:19:58 PM EST
And just a reminder of why we all love Italy (slightly adult, but not worse than an Italian shampoo commercial).


Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 05:29:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Just one paragraph to illustrate this:


The equation has changed: Today, with oil approaching $150 a barrel, most European countries, which generally have no oil and gas resources of their own, have been forced by finances to consider new forms of energy -- and fast. New nuclear plants take 20 years to build. Also, instead of Chernobyl, Europeans have more recently watched in horror as Russian president Vladamir Putin cut off the natural gas supply to Ukraine in a price dispute, leaving that country in darkness.

Breathlessness and ignorance on every line: oil at $150, countries "forced by finance" to look at energy, nuclear taking 20 years to build, Ukraine in darkness.

Scary to see such incompetence in the NYT.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 05:33:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm not shocked.  NYT has become nothing more than drivel with a good pedigree.

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."
by poemless on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 05:40:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hilarious indeed.

And to tell the truth, an Italian minister saying something only means so much. There's hardly a consensus and there will be delays and trouble.

Interestingly and in difference from Sweden, another phase-out basket case, the Italian nuclear industry has persevered and gotten lots of foreign contracts. They still have competence. If (=when) we would (=will) do the renaissance thing up here, there will be strains, and looooots of retired engineers brought back form retirement as consultants.

At least I'll get a job.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 05:41:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Nobody will authorise export of sensitive technology to a country with no functioning supervisory authority...

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 05:35:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The French will export anything to anyone, as long as they get payed. ;)

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 05:42:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, and did I mention those dastardly Swedes? ;)

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 05:45:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
    IKEA
by PIGL on Fri May 23rd, 2008 at 08:37:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A country that seems incapable of dealing with its conventional waste is unlikely to be a poster child for secure nuclear waste management.

But it's okay. Serious people have decided that nuclear must be our base load capacity and if we all end up glowing in the dark cos the people running it are criminals and militarist authoritarians, well at least it'll save on lighting costs.

Nuclear power has only delivered in one country (and we don't know the dismantling costs), and that country seems to be committing reformist hari-kiri even as we speak, so I don't give us much hope over the tens of thousands of years we need to keep this idiotic policy going.

glad i don't have kids, I don't have to care what happens after I'm gone.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 05:36:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks for this.  A large gust of fresh air.

If sanity be culturally normative, then by the norms of this culture I claim insanity.
by ARGeezer (argeezer@yahoo.com) on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 05:37:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sorry, I got my references confused.  I was referring to a reference to "Post Autistic Economics" as a breath of fresh air.

If sanity be culturally normative, then by the norms of this culture I claim insanity.
by ARGeezer (argeezer@yahoo.com) on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 05:40:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Guardian - Exeter Blast : Man arrested

Just in time for the debate on the 42 day limit, an attempted suicide bombing in Exeter. No, I don't think it was a Govt conspiracy, just some Islamists who know how to turn the screw to best effect. After all, Exeter isn't your category A target, so I think they were just working within the limitations of their patsy.

A man arrested in connection with a city centre explosion was tonight named by police as 22-year-old Nicky Reilly - who police believe had adopted the Islamic faith.

He suffered lacerations to his eye and some facial burning after a device he had on him partially exploded.

Another device found in the vicinity of the restaurant did not explode



keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 05:43:52 PM EST
I still see no reason for the extension, beyond letting the bruises go down.

Interviewer: What do you believe is behind this recent increase in terrorist bombings? Helpmann: Bad sportsmanship
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 06:01:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
ouch

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 06:06:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's just security brinksmanship. "We can lock 'em up for 42 days". "We'll call you and raise you to 60."

amazingly, the tories have recognised it's a silly game and are sticking at 28 and making Labour look stupid. They're actually succeeding in saying that Labour are the pissy wetting themselves party who can do nothing except shout how tough they are cos they haven't got a clue what else to do.

Even if they pass 42 days it'll be an incredible own goal, not of 10p tax band proportions, but pretty close. Even with this silly twerp trying to blow himself up, people are just so over being scared.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 06:11:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Guardian - Crewe byelection: Labour braced for hammering

Labour was tonight preparing itself for an electoral hammering as it awaited the results of the Crewe and Nantwich byelection.

Party sources have admitted that Labour could lose by as many as 8,000 votes in what is being billed as the most important byelection for more than a decade.

The polls close at 10pm and the result is expected between 2am and 3am. Some activists on the ground in Crewe said that turnout had been higher than expected.

If it is of that order Brown has little chance of surviving to the next election, possibly not till Xmas. Of course, there is the minor problem that there isn't a credible replacement but right now allowing Brown to walk in unopposed last year is looking to be a mistake of clinton AUMF proportions. An election losing fatal error that can never be washed away.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 05:50:37 PM EST
Some activists on the ground in Crewe said that turnout had been higher than expected.

They smell blood.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 06:11:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hence the thread title. I'm really looking forward to what happens after this. UK politics may actually become lively again if the deadening numbness, the unlistening monotone of its message, that has defined NuLab is pierced.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 06:15:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm not. It'll be another round of criminals and jackasses - meaning professional criminals and jackasses, not the amateurs which NuLab has mostly thrown up.

NuLab could do with a stiff reminder where its loyalties should lie, but unfortunately without a credible progressive party in the UK we're left with a choice on a spectrum between bimbly well-meaning ineptitude and outright frothing racism.

Cameron is already preparing his short sharp shock of national austerity speech (for everyone except his City chums.)

Education? Health care? Transport? Climate change? Social investment? Infrastructure? Strategy and foresight?

No, I don't think so.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 07:52:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
First things first: The unions get crushed.  I note the Tories' site -- what's with the stupid tree symbol? -- takes digs at Labour for union donations.

And American "Welfare-to-Work" has now been replaced by "Work for Welfare" over there.

Now that I think about it, looking through the agenda, is there anything in this that they didn't rob from the post-1994 US?

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 08:00:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Drew J Jones:
what's with the stupid tree symbol?

Green. So, very, very green.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 08:23:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'd say it's like the Bush administration for retarded people, but as no one among the Tories could possibly be as stupid as Bush, I'll conclude it's an act, and thus that it's even worse.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 08:36:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Drew J Jones:
I'd say it's like the Bush administration for retarded people, but as no one among the Tories could possibly be as stupid as Bush, I'll conclude it's an act, and thus that it's even worse.

You're forgetting the Epic Fail that was the Thatcher legacy.

Stupid? Criminal? Self-serving and smug? Abusive towards the weak and poor?

When they say 'You can have it all', that's exactly what they mean.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Fri May 23rd, 2008 at 04:37:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, that's true.  Bush is undoubtedly the bastard child of Reagan and Thatcher.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Fri May 23rd, 2008 at 10:27:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm going to have to wash my minds eye out with soap after that particularly nasty image.

Interviewer: What do you believe is behind this recent increase in terrorist bombings? Helpmann: Bad sportsmanship
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Fri May 23rd, 2008 at 10:33:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
See, now why ya gotta be like that?  The image didn't pop into my head until you mentioned it, and now I want to kill myself.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Fri May 23rd, 2008 at 11:01:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
the stupid tree is that tree that tory candidates full out of, and hit every branch on the way to the ground.

Interviewer: What do you believe is behind this recent increase in terrorist bombings? Helpmann: Bad sportsmanship
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 09:58:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You mean the Ugly Tree?

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 10:10:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
they take them up that one too

Interviewer: What do you believe is behind this recent increase in terrorist bombings? Helpmann: Bad sportsmanship
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Fri May 23rd, 2008 at 03:15:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hazel Bleughs is on question time tonight. I realised how much I hate NuLab when I accepted I just couldn't face listening to her voice. The only noise I could bear listening to from her is the clank of the chains as she begs for our forgiveness for everything she's said or done since she entered parliament.

and the multitudes who pitilessly turn our thumbs down on her entreaties. Hers and every other Blairite scumdrels that has polluted our politics since 1997. To the lions with them.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 06:20:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Commentators are suggesting  that the result of tonights crewe event, will be probably  more of anti-Brown rather than Pro-Cameron. if they are correct it might be that the frame is decided already, and it isn't pro-tory.

Interviewer: What do you believe is behind this recent increase in terrorist bombings? Helpmann: Bad sportsmanship
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 06:47:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Does NuLab have anyone better than Gordo?

The long knives will be out after Crewe, but it's not clear that any of the second-raters would be more popular or effective than our current leaderiser.

My nightmare NuLab choice would be John Reid. Mr Bovver Boot would make an exceedingly bad prime minister, and really shouldn't be allowed within Westminster's grubby oik exclusion zone, just in case.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 07:58:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Not anyone instantly obvious, it would have to be someone who's a public name. and most of the well known names fail one of

 Looks like an out of work muppet
looks like an escaped lunatic
is obviously bonkers
is obviously a religious nut
is too closely connected to the war
is too closely part of a Brown/blair faction.

if you were looking for a choice from Labour who was popular or against the war, you'd really be left looking at Mo Mowlam or Robin Cook, and they're probably disqualified through being dead

Interviewer: What do you believe is behind this recent increase in terrorist bombings? Helpmann: Bad sportsmanship

by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 09:55:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
True, but it's hard to think of a Tory without a similar list of attributes - up to and including being dead.
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Fri May 23rd, 2008 at 04:38:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
tonight I've been watching a program about fast food



Interviewer: What do you believe is behind this recent increase in terrorist bombings? Helpmann: Bad sportsmanship

by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 06:02:15 PM EST
I've been enjoying Jonathan Meades Magnetic North series being shown again. Haven't got time to watch this prog now, tomorrow. Promise

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 06:07:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
seeing that was on, and having already seen it I went hunting for my Meades fix. And found him making sausages using condoms and other pieces of entertainment.

Interviewer: What do you believe is behind this recent increase in terrorist bombings? Helpmann: Bad sportsmanship
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Thu May 22nd, 2008 at 06:41:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Wow, those were some of the most beautiful chickens I have ever seen!  I'd love to know what sort they are.  

Karen in Austin

Thence comes our true nobility by grace, It was not willed us with our rank and place. Chaucer

by Wife of Bath (bakerswife13@yahoo.com) on Fri May 23rd, 2008 at 01:14:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
they look similar to the original progenitor breed of chicken from S E Asia. I've seen them running around in TV docs about Asian village life. No idea what they're called, but I do know theat they are not prolific egg producers.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri May 23rd, 2008 at 05:47:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Many thanks!

Karen in Austin

Thence comes our true nobility by grac