European Tribune

Soixante-huit, veille de l'année érotique...

by redstar
Mon May 26th, 2008 at 02:52:36 PM EST

An op-ed in the New York Times, forwarded to me by a relative, reminded me of some of the low-frequency cultural noise I was hearing a couple of weeks back when in Paris. As simple math would have it, 1968 was 40 years ago today, and elements of the generation which produced it then are now commemorating it now. (As an aside, why do we now mark the importance of events at 20, 30, 40 year intervals? when was the old fashioned half-or full-century deemed insufficiently contemporary? Commercial reasons?). And so, the so-called "paper of record" in America would have it's word to say, for the benefit of those few literati and glitterati in America who still have some material basis to be referential to Paname, on an event which largely missed the US.

When reading, please note the religious (re-)conversion of the author, J.-C. Guillebaud, a journalist of some reputation. This is important for reading certain aspects of the article, which might also explain its publication in this American newspaper. As is often the case, what the Grey Lady in charge at the New York Times sees as fit to print tells us more about the Grey Lady, and what she thinks her readers want to read, than about what is being covered.


Wondering aloud why 1968 is being accorded such importance today, forty years later (a fair question indeed...) Guillebaud attempts to answer his  question:

Even after four decades, it retains an ambiguous character, enough to satisfy the French taste for polemic and debate. The word "ambiguous" is apt: the "revolution" of mores that we ascribe to May '68 had, in truth, already been accomplished. The great judicial reforms concerning the rights of women and family law (divorce, contraception, sexual relationships outside marriage, etc.) had been made between 1965 and 1967. That two-year period has even been baptized by legal scholars the "legislative spring." Marching in the streets in May '68, we were merely marking a change that had already occurred.

Guillebaud is of course more or less full of shit here. Crime of omission, of course, but as we all know, the march to continuing progress in rights of women and sexual minorities is ongoing, and in the EU and even in France. And it is patently false to say the major reforms were concluded by 1967. What of abortion, made safe and legal in France in 1975? Is this religion polluting the analysis? What of equality in the workplace? Gender pay equity was seriously addressed in....2004. That's a long time after 1967.

...The real legacy of May '68, as we see in France today, is individualism, the rejection of civic sense and ideology, the rehabilitation of the idea that personal and financial success is a worthy pursuit -- in short, a revival of capitalism. To borrow an expression of Lenin's, we were useful idiots. Indeed, the uprising was more a counterrevolution than a revolution.  

This is a variation on the right-wing theme often sounded against hedonist baby-boomers protesting Vietnam in America, and I have to say as a line of argument, it is a very tempting one for this lefty. This being said, it seems to me that Guillebaud is more or less blaming the idealists for the actions of the opportunists (both participants and observers) who milked the event to their own benefit in the event's aftermath. Speaking this way is a bit like blaming Robespierre for Fouché.

The second explanation lies in the subsequent success of the leading figures of May 1968, notably in the press, advertising, film and politics. This generation of baby boomers largely controls the news media and cultural life. The majority of broadcast chiefs and newspaper, magazine and book publishers and senior editors "did" May '68. They are simply indulging their own nostalgia. The media flood is less political than it appears. In ordering up a special issue, a film or TV program, the boomers are first and foremost celebrating their own youth -- whether younger generations find it interesting or not.

Have to say Guillebaud nails it here.

Third reason: after 40 years, the French have ended up convincing themselves that May '68 was a sort of Parisian exception, even though it was part of a worldwide effervescence. Comparable uprisings took place in Japan, Latin America, Germany and Britain. Today, we mention those foreign examples only in passing, without making them part of our collective memory. For us, May '68 remains a French phenomenon.

Something like this actually happened in Britain? I hardly believe it. Anyone have a good link?

In truth, the only distinguishing aspect of the French events was that the student demonstrations ran alongside a powerful social movement involving a general strike, the occupation of factories and the participation of unions and leftist parties. It was the strike, not the student revolt, that truly paralyzed the country for three long weeks. The paradox is that these two movements never encountered each other. The students marching toward the factories to "meet the workers" found the doors closed. The unions didn't want them: the workers found the students disorganized and irresponsible.

And this is the true lesson, I think, for us in the future. The focus on these events tended to be on the students, but the real story was the back story. As we remark on falling standards of living, of workers putting their arms down, of rising inequality, we should look at the pivot point, in the west, for the rise in the gini coefficient. It happened right about 1968-1972, right about the time that Paris saw long, well observed general strikes (illegal in the US and, I believe, the UK) for the last time. In France, in the OECD for that matter.

When their profits are no longer under pressure, and importantly, when ideological opposition has been stifled, ridiculed, discredited, it is then that Capital begins to show its true colors. It is then that everything goes.

The other distinguishing feature is that, unlike much of northern Europe and the English-speaking world, France has held out for so long. (But how much longer?)

Guillbaud concludes:

The last factor is the current situation in France. With a society that is less forgiving and still more precarious than that of 1968, with a fading left and bleak prospects, the French want to turn toward a time when we had hope that the future would be brighter. The commemoration and the wallowing in mythical memories is an alarming symptom of a search for consolation in a country that no longer dares to think about what is to come.

spoken like someone who himself has put his arms down. Probably for good.

   

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policy of the PCF at the time was still, I believe, against abortion...

"C'est un scandale !"
by redstar on Mon May 26th, 2008 at 02:57:13 PM EST

Something like this actually happened in Britain? I hardly believe it. Anyone have a good link?

It wasn't the same as in France, but there was this:


1968: Anti-Vietnam demo turns violent

More than 200 people have been arrested after thousands of demonstrators clashed in an anti-Vietnam war protest outside the United States embassy in London.

The St John Ambulance Brigade said it treated 86 people for injuries. Fifty were taken to hospital including up to 25 police officers.

The trouble followed a big rally in Trafalgar square, when an estimated 10,000 demonstrated against American action in Vietnam and British support for the United States.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/march/17/newsid_2818000/2818967.stm



Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Mon May 26th, 2008 at 05:39:16 PM EST
clearly may 68 in france was far more eventful than these piddling protest, even the chicago democratic convention.   the last decade has been riddled with huge protests, many of which led to rioting and police violence, almost all to mass arrests, in the US.  The only one to gain any real media recognition being the WTO conference in Seattle because it was such an astoundingly successful protest that was a bit out of nowhere for the people being protested, eg they didn;t have time to prepare their narrative against the protests nor ban the media.

shutting down the nation for weeks has the effect of forcing a conversation.  Chicago 68 did not do this nor did the other examples listed.  WTO in 99 did so, to a small extent, but it would have to occur in two-dozen cities simultaneously to equal May 1968 in France.

all that said, who cares?  40 years is a long time.  what is happening today?

by paving on Wed May 28th, 2008 at 05:16:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
European Tribune - Comments - Soixante-huit, veille de l'année érotique...
It happened right about 1968-1972, right about the time that Paris saw long, well observed general strikes (illegal in the US and, I believe, the UK) for the last time. In France, in the OECD for that matter.

30. United Kingdom
There is no fundamental right to strike in Britain.
According to common law the organisers of and participants in industrial action can be
made liable for damages if the action is not protected by immunities. Industrial action will
also amount to a breach of the employment contract, allowing the employer to dismiss the
worker once the period of statutory protection has expired.
Legal basis:
Regulations are to be found in the Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act
of 1992.
Definition:
A trade dispute in relation to which immunity may be granted is a dispute between
workers and their employers relating exclusively or mainly to specific issues at the
workplace (the Act details which issues can form the basis of a trade dispute).
Types of collective action:
The industrial action may be a concerted stoppage (a strike) but there exist other forms of
industrial action short of a strike, e.g. overtime ban.
  • political (unlawful)
  • solidarity (unlawful)
  • work-to-rule
  • go-slows
  • picketing (lawful if peaceful but only if carried out at the worker's place of work)

From: Wiebke Warneck 'Strike Rules in the EU-27 and Beyond: a comparative overview.' Brussels, ETUI-REHS 2007.

Link

(interesting document)

There was a general strike in Northern Ireland in 1974. But then, that was before Thatcher and Major. In any case, at least 1968 was not the last time there was a large, long, well-organised general strike in an OECD country.

By and large, general strikes don't need to be legal. There's protection in numbers. You only need broad backing and a government that hesitates to bring in the army.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Mon May 26th, 2008 at 06:58:33 PM EST
1968-1972, right about the time that Paris saw long, well observed general strikes (illegal in the US and, I believe, the UK) for the last time. In France, in the OECD for that matter.

Spain had general strikes during my lifetime. WTF?

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue May 27th, 2008 at 04:33:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There is the 'long' qualifier.

Wikipedia has an article on the 1988 Spanish general strike, but that was only 24 hours, and then it mentions a few other general strikes, none of which were longer than 24 hours. Were there any longer strikes?

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Tue May 27th, 2008 at 05:44:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, that is the one out I could think about.

The 24-hour strikes were more of a political statement than anything else.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue May 27th, 2008 at 05:46:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And this is the true lesson, I think, for us in the future. The focus on these events tended to be on the students, but the real story was the back story. As we remark on falling standards of living, of workers putting their arms down, of rising inequality, we should look at the pivot point, in the west, for the rise in the gini coefficient. It happened right about 1968-1972, right about the time that Paris saw long, well observed general strikes (illegal in the US and, I believe, the UK) for the last time. In France, in the OECD for that matter.

When their profits are no longer under pressure, and importantly, when ideological opposition has been stifled, ridiculed, discredited, it is then that Capital begins to show its true colors. It is then that everything goes.

Yes, and why was the opposition stifled, ridiculed, discredited?

I'd remind you that 1968 was a disaster for the left as a political force: 13 years of desert and Mitterrand at the end.

I would also observe that 1968 was the point where "we" started to suffer from "progress fatigue".


Facts, selfish little bastards. They don't even care about your feelings.

by Francois in Paris on Tue May 27th, 2008 at 01:04:13 AM EST
But then, 1968-1983 is the period in France when the lower wages grew the fastest ; indeed the only time since WW2 when the wages lower than median grew faster than the upper quintile wages. The left as a political force was in disarray, but many of its political themes were implemented ; indeed with a more real than ever threat of revolution.

Auferre, trucidare, rapere, falsis nominibus imperium; atque, ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Tue May 27th, 2008 at 04:41:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Not sure about this. If 1968 (not the student's 1968, but the worker's 1968) was so unsucessful, why were many of the what are arguably the left's political projects (abortion, transportation, energy) adopted by elements of the right and centre-right over the next decade? Elections aren't the only way to shift the Overton window to the left.

Finally you cite Mitterand as something of a furtherance of disaster, and while I'm not unsympatheric to this line of argument (given what he did to the PCF) I'm not entirely sure that the point you are making about him would be the same as the one I would make. Mitterand got quite a few good projects for the left accomplished, among which the increased holiday pay to 5 weeks, 39 hour week, increased workers rights viz. employers, nationalization of banks and insurers, end of death penalty, the ISF, and I'm sure I'm forgetting some things, maybe a PS partisan could come up with more. The legacy was not all good (and in truth he did not succeed, as planned, in killing off the left of the left, simply in severely weakening the pcf only to see other less organized groupings attempt take their place) but there's a lot of good there all the same.

Relative to other countries in the OECD, France did pretty damn well in terms of making progress, I'd say.

"C'est un scandale !"

by redstar on Tue May 27th, 2008 at 12:23:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Finally you cite Mitterand as something of a furtherance of disaster, and while I'm not unsympatheric to this line of argument (given what he did to the PCF)

You mean he didn't do it completely enough, or are you seriously arguing that it's a pity that the anti-democratic and farcical PCF of the time was badly weakened?

by MarekNYC on Tue May 27th, 2008 at 12:42:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The PCF was anti-democratic and farcical in 1981?

Please provide support for this assertion.

"C'est un scandale !"

by redstar on Tue May 27th, 2008 at 01:36:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The PCF was anti-democratic and farcical in 1981?

Please provide support for this assertion.

1 Any Leninist party is by definition anti-democratic. That's true of both the orthodox PCF type and the Trotsyist or Maoist versions of Leninism.

  1. In 1981 the PCF were good little Brezhnevites.

  2. Farcical - Georges Marchais, 'nuff said.

 
by MarekNYC on Tue May 27th, 2008 at 01:51:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Point 1: Highly dependent upon your interpretation of both the evolution of the PCF (by 1981, Marchais was publicly critical of the Thorez period, calling the PCF of the time "Stalinist") as well as your "liberal-democratic" definition of Democracy the plutocratic of effects which we see quite well in the US and the UK, among other places. In any event, the PS had been in open cooperation, off and on (by PCF choice, not PS) for roughly a decade by then, so it was certainly not a PS (and by extension, a left) opinion in France, from Marchais' assumption of the general secretariat, that the PCF was not a viable Democratic partner, your own center-right social democratic objections notwithstanding.

Point 2: Association fallacy.

Point 3: Ad hominem (and wrong for more reasons than the fallacy you employ).

"C'est un scandale !"

by redstar on Tue May 27th, 2008 at 02:09:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Stalinism is a particularly nasty version of Leninism, but just as you can be a fascist without being a nazi - cf. Italian Fascism, so you can be a Leninist without being a Stalinist. As far as your quip about 'liberal democracy' - the good fascist line. And no I'm not being gratuitously insulting. Fascism and communism both make the same sort of arguments with respect to why democracy is not really democratic, though they differ as to its harm - hurting the 'nation' vs. hurting the 'working class'. By the eighties, anybody who was a genuine communist had a moral compass no better than a fascist. Now it's true that there were people who called themselves communists who had basically repudiated Leninism - e.g. much of the PCI, but then in theory there's nothing to stop a fascist from doing the same. And at this point of course the PCF has also decided that the political side of Leninism belongs in the dustheap of history.
by MarekNYC on Tue May 27th, 2008 at 02:21:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Right. And all criticisms of "Democracy" are either fascist or communist and in any event not credible, closing one's eyes to the plutocratic, bought-off form of it in the US you live in today.

Ignoring this red herring you've posed up, please support your further contention that the PCF, in 1981, was demonstrably anti-Democratic, and try to do it without the jargon you use to teach impressionable American kids about the evils of "Totalitarianism".

Assuming, for the sake of an argument, that you accept that "much of the PCI" had "basically repudiated Leninism," (noting as I do that both the PCI and the PCF, beginning in the early '70's, began to take some distance from Moscow, and that there was certainly, by 1981, no oaths or any other acts taken by the PCI politburo to "repudiate Lenin") please demonstrate that the same cannot be said of the PCF.

Marchais in Moscow in '79, supporting the invasion of Afghanistan (a position, it should be noted, which looks better and better with the passage of time) is not necessarily seen as an (re-)embrace of Leninism so much as an electoral tactic, in retrospect not a good one.

Remember, this is not just the PCF of Georges Marchais, but also, the PCF of Charles Fiterman, who two decades later joined the PS, to be sure, but certainly had been evolving in outlook throughout his long career in the PCF, much like many in the party. And unless you've been talking to Charles Fiterman, who probably knows more about Marchais' state of mind at the time than anyone else,  I'm not sure you can make any but a quite circumstantial case about the nature of the party as of 1981, certainly not one which is as categorical as you are pretending here.

"C'est un scandale !"

by redstar on Tue May 27th, 2008 at 03:03:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Marchais in Moscow in '79, supporting the invasion of Afghanistan (a position, it should be noted, which looks better and better with the passage of time) is not necessarily seen as an (re-)embrace of Leninism so much as an electoral tactic, in retrospect not a good one.

Heh, that and the invasion of Iraq.

Right. And all criticisms of "Democracy" are either fascist or communist and in any event not credible, closing one's eyes to the plutocratic, bought-off form of it in the US you live in today.

Well... the communist and fascist critiques which 'explain' why democracy isn't really democratic are the same.

Ignoring this red herring you've posed up, please support your further contention that the PCF, in 1981, was demonstrably anti-Democratic, and try to do it without the jargon you use to teach impressionable American kids about the evils of "Totalitarianism".

sorry, if you genuinely don't understand that communism is just as anti-democratic as fascism, by its very nature, it's a lost cause. I mean, I'm not quite sure how to explain to you that the US or French systems, in spite of their faults, is quite a bit more democratic than post Stalinist Eastern Europe or Franco's Spain or Mussolini's Italy.

Now if you want a debate on the usefulness of the concept of 'totalitarianism' - whether applied to regimes of the left or the right, we can have it, but it's not what we're discussing here.

by MarekNYC on Tue May 27th, 2008 at 03:24:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, I do indeed get the point you are making about unreformed communism being anethema to the liberal democratic ideals of which you are a fan. Hell, I'm a fan too - just like Gandhi is a fan of Western Civilization...as in, they're a great idea. I'm just not particularly as big of a fan of those ideals as you are once I've seen them in place, watching how well it seems to work in the country where I have resided for the past 12 years. It is a fine political organization under certain circumstances to be sure; it's just that those circumstances are pretty limited.

In fact, I think we are saying the same thing here, ironically. You don't need to explain to me that the US system is for all its faults more Democratic than Franco or Mussolini. I get it. I just don't care much given the result is the same: war criminals.

The "Liberal" democracy you seem to espouse is, at the very least, limited insofar as the best it can do is produce mushy 3rd way solutions which are simply not up to the task of simultaneous challenges of climate change, natural resource shortages and vast and increasing global inequity and the wars which will result from them. The US of the past decade being more a canary in the coal mine than an exception to the rule of what "liberal" democracy produces. And if this 3rd way mush is the best that "Liberal" democracy seems to be able to achieve, it is by no means to most certain "democratic" outcome in such a system. Far more likely is it to be gamed by plutocratic interests. And, even avoiding that probable outcome, it is also prone to the sorts of tyrannies of the majority which produce a Milosevic here or a, a...wait...weren't quite a few of those fascists through time "democratically" elected at one point or another?

(Leaving French democracy apart from American here, on purpose; there's still some measure of hope in France and in any event the ballot isn't the only way to influence policy in France - as the events of 1968 demonstrate. Whereas in the US, not even the ballot seems to influence policy for any but the very top of the income strata heap, with the Democrats representing the 2nd to 10th percentile of income strate, and the Republicans representing the 1st percentile, with no one else, alas, adequately represented anymore....)

Just like markets, "democracy" can be a tool to efficiently channel the will of and cater to the needs of people. And, just like markets, "democracy" must be heavily regulated in order to stay useful and in tune with the needs of all people (and not just the plutocrats).

The idealist believes that regulation can be effective; the realist observes that this is only intermittently the case. Count me as a realist.

"C'est un scandale !"

by redstar on Tue May 27th, 2008 at 04:01:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In fact, I think we are saying the same thing here, ironically. You don't need to explain to me that the US system is for all its faults more Democratic than Franco or Mussolini. I get it. I just don't care much given the result is the same: war criminals.

Wait a second, you just said earlier on in this exchange that producing war criminals was a good thing.

Just like markets, "democracy" can be a tool to efficiently channel the will of and cater to the needs of people. And, just like markets, "democracy" must be heavily regulated in order to stay useful and in tune with the needs of all people (and not just the plutocrats).

The idealist believes that regulation can be effective; the realist observes that this is only intermittently the case. Count me as a realist.

See, that is the fascist argument right there - democracy is gamed by powerful interest groups and doesn't produce the right results.  Just cause your economic views are not fascist or neoliberal doesn't mean that your political ones aren't the same as those who supported Mussolini or Pinochet.  Me, I think that people should get to choose what economic system they want, and to change their mind and make mistakes, rather than getting thrown in jail or murdered by folks like you who believe they know better.

by MarekNYC on Tue May 27th, 2008 at 04:13:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Wait a second, you just said earlier on in this exchange that producing war criminals was a good thing.

Bullshit.

You really want to start trolling here, Marek?

See, that is the fascist argument right there - democracy is gamed by powerful interest groups and doesn't produce the right results.  Just cause your economic views are not fascist or neoliberal doesn't mean that your political ones aren't the same as those who supported Mussolini or Pinochet.  Me, I think that people should get to choose what economic system they want, and to change their mind and make mistakes, rather than getting thrown in jail or murdered by folks like you who believe they know better.

Oh, I see, I'm a fascist.

You really are trolling now.

"C'est un scandale !"

by redstar on Tue May 27th, 2008 at 04:17:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You were praising the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan as something showing the good judgment  of authoritarian leftism.

Oh, I see, I'm a fascist.

You really are trolling now.

In your critique of democracy, yes you do share the fascist outlook. In the socio-economic sphere you don't. That's what makes you a communist rather than a fascist. Just as difference between a left wing social democrat and yourself is about politics, not economics. Or what exactly do you mean by saying you reject democracy in the same way as you do markets?  How would your ideal political system with attempts to create an organized political movement designed to restore the market economy and oust the government?  Would state coercion not be involved?

by MarekNYC on Tue May 27th, 2008 at 04:26:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Of all the regimes in Afghanistan over the past 35 years it's probably the case that the socialist one the Soviets were trying to prop up was the best, all things considered.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue May 27th, 2008 at 04:29:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'd say the current one, and in any case that rather begs the question of the horrible civil war and how it was fought, but that's debatable - social conservatism vs. greater political repression. Plus, the same goes for Iraq - if you skip the whole violence part and the dislocations caused by it, the current regime is better than Saddam.
by MarekNYC on Tue May 27th, 2008 at 04:36:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And now begins my weekly edition of, "Wait.  Am I at ET, or have I stumbled upon some parallel universe neoliberal outpost?"


"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."
by poemless on Tue May 27th, 2008 at 04:46:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Umh, what?  How is attacking the idea that it's a sign of good political thinking to support an invasion in the name of communism, leading to the death of on the order of a tenth of the population and the displacement of many more, a sign of 'neoliberalism'. Does this mean that anyone who thinks that the invasion of Iraq hasn't been a shining success is a commie?
by MarekNYC on Tue May 27th, 2008 at 04:53:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Because the USA did not have a hand in causing said civil war of which the current regime is just the latest chapter...
Brzezinski: Yes. According to the official version of history, CIA aid to the Mujahadeen began during 1980, that is to say, after the Soviet army invaded Afghanistan, 24 Dec 1979. But the reality, secretly guarded until now, is completely otherwise Indeed, it was July 3, 1979 that President Carter signed the first directive for secret aid to the opponents of the pro-Soviet regime in Kabul. And that very day, I wrote a note to the president in which I explained to him that in my opinion this aid was going to induce a Soviet military intervention.

Q: Despite this risk, you were an advocate of this covert action. But perhaps you yourself desired this Soviet entry into war and looked to provoke it?

B: It isn't quite that. We didn't push the Russians to intervene, but we knowingly increased the probability that they would.



When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue May 27th, 2008 at 04:55:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Of course they did. And that was predictable. Blaming the catastrophe on the US is like blaming the current one on the Baathists and Iran. Or for that matter I suspect that the Vietnam war would have gone a bit better if there were no support for the North from China and the USSR, or just no support for the Vietcong from the North.  
by MarekNYC on Tue May 27th, 2008 at 05:13:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So CIA covert operations to destabilize regimes are all fine and dandy, then? Where do you draw the line? Was the ouster of Mossadegh okay? Lumumba? And the US used the Baathists and Saddam for a nifty proxy war against Iran, too.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue May 27th, 2008 at 05:15:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's not the issue - it was predictable that just a few years after Vietnam, the US would decide to give the Soviets a taste of their own medicine.  This was the way the world worked, saying if only these bad people hadn't behaved the way everybody knew they would, you wouldn't have had a catastrophe is the same argument the folks who say Iraq worked out well make.
by MarekNYC on Tue May 27th, 2008 at 05:20:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It is indeed the issue.

Your brand of American "liberal" like to play good spy, bad spy when talking about other countries, but of course since we are talking about that great "liberal Democracy" which is the US of A, the manichaean impulse stops on a dime. Everything is now shades of nuanced grey. Everything is explainable, and explained, and excused.

"C'est un scandale !"

by redstar on Tue May 27th, 2008 at 05:32:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So you're saying that an invasion of Iraq to impose a communist state would have worked out well, and if it hadn't, it would all be the fault of those horrible counter-revolutionaries - who knew they'd fight back? Please explain to me the difference between you and the neocons other than the economic system you desire to see imposed and the fact that they pay lip service to political freedom and you don't even bother to?
by MarekNYC on Tue May 27th, 2008 at 05:38:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's more than an economic system, it's social progress, and an extension of the political progress (over feudalism, pretty much anything is progress) that had been ongoing in the country the whole of the 1970's.

And over time (and not all that much time) it would be seen as being fraternal in nature.

US invasion in Irak is completely different. Imperial in nature, primarily for resources (oil) and not fraternal, to virtually no benefit of the Iraki people and demonstrably so (by polls, by infant mortality rates, by social regression - please google "state of women's rights or minority rights" in Iraq). But, the US does have one thing the Soviets didn't have - there aren't a couple of countries not even in the region meddling in the affairs of Iraq like Saudi Arabia (great bedfellow the US had there, as now) and the US were doing through Pakistan in Afghanistan, starting well before the main thrust of Soviet intervention.

That you would draw a moral equivalence between the two is pretty bankrupt as far as I am concerned.

"C'est un scandale !"

by redstar on Tue May 27th, 2008 at 05:51:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
(over feudalism, pretty much anything is progress)

Ah yes, I remember now, you were arguing that Maoism, complete with its genocidal policies in Tibet, was 'progress' - damn, you make the fricking Pinochet supporters look like decent people.

US invasion in Irak is completely different. Imperial in nature, primarily for resources (oil) and not fraternal, to virtually no benefit of the Iraki people and demonstrably so (by polls, by infant mortality rates, by social regression

What world are you living in - the death rate, and the mass refugee crisis that resulted from the Afghan invasion were even greater than that of Iraq on a per capita basis. I guess if you think that this was a 'fraternal' invasion not motivated by 'imperial' power politics, then you're clearly in the world of those who see Cheney as a great altruistic idealist.

by MarekNYC on Tue May 27th, 2008 at 05:57:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Again, the name caling Marek...and the equation of me as a fascist.

Really, this is not becoming.

"C'est un scandale !"

by redstar on Tue May 27th, 2008 at 06:08:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's not name calling, all I'm saying is that there is no moral difference between being a proud communist and a proud fascist, nor between someone who argues that communism is overall a better system than liberal democracy, and one who makes the same argument for fascism. They're not the same thing, but they're equally bad. No apologies to any folks with soft spots for one of the two, as much  as I'm sure both will feel offended.
by MarekNYC on Tue May 27th, 2008 at 06:12:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No. Argued the way you are arguing, you can be sure I'm not in the least offended.

Amused, maybe. Seeing a big black pot, too, given you are reporting this from the US of A. Certainly not offended.

"C'est un scandale !"

by redstar on Tue May 27th, 2008 at 06:16:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Nope. No sort of spy. I don't believe Vietnam worked out well for the US or the Vietnamese, ditto for Iraq. You apparently do - or would if only they had been waged in the name of communism rather than free markets and democracy.  
by MarekNYC on Tue May 27th, 2008 at 05:47:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Equality is a pure good, and it perpetuates peace.

However the means to get there with a minimum of violence is the best path.

But that's not what Jimmy Carter and his crew were all about, was it? (And needless to say, what followed, less so.)

"C'est un scandale !"

by redstar on Tue May 27th, 2008 at 05:56:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think that the extent of the support that the Vietcong received from the USSR and China, is much overstated.

About Afghanistan: the moral ca,se for invasion and occupation if one discounts the rather laughable as it turned out, "We're going there to get Bin Laden" argument, is that this was an undemocratic backward regime that destroyed world monuments and repressed women and wiped out the opium trade allowed its country to be used as a training ground for terrorists. Were the communists to prevail, aside from the "undemocratic" part, all other failings would be corrected, and you wouldn't even have warlords running 95% of the country. That is to say an American invasion wouldn't be needed were the Russian one successful. Regarding the legality of both interventions, I think one can say that they are equally questionable.

NB: As a member of a (Euro)communist party in the 1980s in Greece, I marched against both the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan and Jaruzelski's junta. The internal democratic structure of the party was impressively open (after a few incidents) and was well beyond the internal practices of the mainstream political parties (and of course the Orthodox CP). The PCF was half way there. The PCI was AFAICT possibly the most democratic party of its size in Italy or the European South at the time.

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake

by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Sat May 31st, 2008 at 02:14:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Point of order - Afghanistan wasn't invaded. The Soviet Union was, progressively, invited to support the existing Afghan republic over the course of two years with gradual increases in military aid, aid it should be pointed out which began, as with India, well before, almost a decade before.

And, also point of order, the socialist government did not fall when the Red Army pulled out. It fell when one of the warlords "running" the country today withdrew his support from Kabul and Najibullah, who may have been a communist, but was not necessarily a Soviet stooge, and was not without popular support (albeit nowhere near majoritarian).

And it goes without saying that the socialist government in Afghanistan was far superior to all governments which have followed (including the periods of warlordism we currently see and the period of anarchy as well).
 

"C'est un scandale !"

by redstar on Tue May 27th, 2008 at 04:59:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Point of order - those were points of information, surely?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue May 27th, 2008 at 05:11:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I duly stand corrected.

"C'est un scandale !"
by redstar on Tue May 27th, 2008 at 05:25:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It means "Iraq - if you skip the whole violence part and the dislocations caused by it, the current regime is better than Saddam" is something I'd expect to hear from the likes of Thomas Friedman.  Frankly, I don't know if even he believes that anymore...

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."
by poemless on Tue May 27th, 2008 at 04:59:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ok, poemless, in other words you completely agree with what I said.
by MarekNYC on Tue May 27th, 2008 at 05:15:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What is it I am in complete agreement with you about, now?  

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."
by poemless on Tue May 27th, 2008 at 05:21:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That invading countries and provoking a massive civil war in the name of ideology while torturing and killing people is not a good idea, and you don't get to say that it was because if only the civil war hadn't and its consequences hadn't happened it arguably would have worked out well.
by MarekNYC on Tue May 27th, 2008 at 05:23:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Or in case you haven't followed this whole damn thread, the comment you responded to was a sarcastic reply to redstar's statement that supporting the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan showed the good moral and policy judgement of the French Communist Party's leadership.
by MarekNYC on Tue May 27th, 2008 at 05:25:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You are assuming that the Afghan civil war wasn't already raging, and that the Soviet intervention wasn't in reaction to that civil war, which was in fact a revolt against the Afghan Republic by the same religious fanatics and local warlords which have run the country ever since.

And, on both assumptions, you are incorrect.

"C'est un scandale !"

by redstar on Tue May 27th, 2008 at 05:29:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
First of all, it wouldn't have lasted long - the communists would have lost, both of their bloody feuding factions. Secondly, it was nowhere near on the scale that followed.  
by MarekNYC on Tue May 27th, 2008 at 05:34:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well ok, we're getting somewhere. Earlier on, you likened the Soviet intervention of Afghanistan to the US invasion of Irak.

How exactly are they similar? Which internationally recognized government in Baghdad invited the US to come to their support? Which government in Baghdad is the US currently supporting, and how are they doing in respecting the rights of women, providing order (say, just in the major cities if you insist) and protecting religious and ethnic minorities?

The communists would have lost, and we would have gotten the same retrograde, despotic, obscurantist, misogynistic a ultimately anarcistic order Afghanistan has been plagued with most of the period since Najibullah was executed. Is this something you are cheering? Is this what you mean when you talk about "freedom" being the ability "to make mistakes" upthread? What of these mistakes, when they get women stoned for showing too much hair or men executed because they have the temerity of doing sport?

Some freedom. Some progress. If that's your social democratic ideal, I have to say that I'm finding it easy to decline the invitation.

"C'est un scandale !"

by redstar on Tue May 27th, 2008 at 05:45:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Or simply the soft despotic relatively non-chaotic order that prevailed before the Communists staged their coup. As for the rest - guess what, not nice, but sorry you're not selling me on an invasion of Iran or Saudi Arabia. And if you think those or the Taliban are what I mean by a liberal democracy, than clearly we have rather different notions of the term.
by MarekNYC on Tue May 27th, 2008 at 05:51:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, now you are selling me on feudalism "soft, despotic but not chaotic" which is, in fact, what liberal Democracy, American style, seems to reduce to, so yes, I think we are starting to connect somewhere.

Still not sold though.

"C'est un scandale !"

by redstar on Tue May 27th, 2008 at 05:53:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I am trying to to the best of my abilities, but I don't think anyone has taken the exact position you are implying they have.  And I'm not certain the comparisons you make are completely interchangeable.

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."
by poemless on Tue May 27th, 2008 at 05:33:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No one is saying provoking a massive civil war in the name of ideology while torturing and killing people is a good idea, so that's a bit of a strawman.  

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."
by poemless on Tue May 27th, 2008 at 05:43:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I created a macro for just this kind of situation: ((*neocon)) without the asterisk

[Neocon Moment Alert]

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue May 27th, 2008 at 04:53:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There's currently a regime in Afghanistan?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue May 27th, 2008 at 04:49:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Taliban...

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."
by poemless on Tue May 27th, 2008 at 04:54:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In the same sense as there was back in the eighties, yes.
by MarekNYC on Tue May 27th, 2008 at 04:55:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Did I say I reject markets or democracy?

I don't remember that. I point out their limitations. I think they are both very much limited. You don't seem to see things this way, and I point this out, but I don't believe I insult you by calling you names. Also, I don't recall using the word "reject" or "rejection" but no matter. I will note that there is quite a difference, which you insist on eliding in many posts here, between what people understand by "communist" and what they understand by "fascist", and further note that very few people who call themselves "communist" today could rightfully be described as heirs to the tradition of Lenin, Stalin or Mao, though I do note you seem to be applying a 1950's template to a movement which has evolved much in the following half-century.

And anybody who thinks we can transition to global equality and shared, balanced prosperity and liberty in the face of climate change, resource limitations and migratory pressures brought on by global neo-liberal "reform" without some intermediate coercion on the part of the State is, imho, sadly mistaken.

I have to say though that this "liberal" aversion to State coercion is something I simply don't understand, and fail to see much of a difference between State "coercion" which might, for instance, tell me where I will work and where I will live, and Corporate coercion (the sort one sees in America every day) which often can tell me and my kids I shall not in fact have a place to live, I shall not in fact be guaranteed a meal or a job and I shall not be entitled to adequate health care for myself or my family because I don't have the right class/professional profile.

I'd have to also say that worrying about the former versus the latter is likely indicative of class.

"C'est un scandale !"

by redstar on Tue May 27th, 2008 at 04:50:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I will note that there is quite a difference, which you insist on eliding in many posts here, between what people understand by "communist" and what they understand by "fascist", and further note that very few people who call themselves "communist" today could rightfully be described as heirs to the tradition of Lenin, Stalin or Mao, though I do note you seem to be applying a 1950's template to a movement which has evolved much in the following half-century.

Well many of them seem to be quite insistent in defending real existing communism whether of the old Eastern European variety, or the current Cuban one. Some even defend the bastardized Chinese hybrid of a late communist political system and an early industrial revolution approach to economic and labour rights.  When folks like you openly reject the political aspects of communism, i.e. turn yourselves into left wing social democrats, then I'll stop attacking. Otherwise you're no better than the folks with their fascist salutes and odes to Il Duce with an at best equivocal attitude towards democracy and political freedoms.

You also stated that while democracy and markets can in theory be good things, you are a 'realist' who understands that in practice the can't be - I call that a rejection.

have to say though that this "liberal" aversion to State coercion is something I simply don't understand, and fail to see much of a difference between State "coercion" which might, for instance, tell me where I will work and where I will live, and Corporate coercion (the sort one sees in America every day) which often can tell me and my kids I shall not in fact have a place to live, I shall not in fact be guaranteed a meal or a job and I shall not be entitled to adequate health care for myself or my family because I don't have the right class/professional profile.

Because under communism you get that plus the political repression.

And anybody who thinks we can transition to global equality and shared, balanced prosperity and liberty in the face of climate change, resource limitations and migratory pressures brought on by global neo-liberal "reform" without some intermediate coercion on the part of the State is, imho, sadly mistaken.

Freely chosen coercion in the form of state regulations where the populations decides how such matters are to be dealt with is one thing, imposed by a self appointed elite backed by the guns at their command is another.

by MarekNYC on Tue May 27th, 2008 at 05:08:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Me, a social democrat? Perish the thought.

You people are the death of progress, and your dominance of what was once the "left" in the past few decades stands as exhibit A for what has gone wrong ever since, and why the gini coefficient rises inexorably in every nation where your leaders (Clinton, Blair, Brown) are allowed to practise their snake oil.  

"C'est un scandale !"

by redstar on Tue May 27th, 2008 at 05:36:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I know, if only we could have had leaders like Ulbricht, Pol Pot, and Ceaucescu instead of Brandt, Blum, Mendes France, and Attlee, how much better off we'd be.
by MarekNYC on Tue May 27th, 2008 at 05:42:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Cherrypciking, much? How about Pinochet, or Franco, or Batista?

I caught a brief mention of the socialist South Yemen which lost a civil war in the early 1990's to wahabist North Yemen with the subsequent dire consequences for human development and I thought that in most regions in the world the periods of socialist government since WWII have been the best that has happened before or since.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue May 27th, 2008 at 05:54:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yup. Cherrypicking. But then again if redstar is arguing that Blair is proof the superiority of communism over social democracy, why can't I do the same. I think I'm on firm ground in saying that the worst of social democrats are still far better than the worst of communism, and ditto for the best.
by MarekNYC on Tue May 27th, 2008 at 06:00:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And to add on, I'll respond the way I have to redstar anytime some bastard makes the moral case for communism over social democracy. I really do view it as morally equivalent to making a case for fascism. If you think I'm being a bit heated here, just imagine that one of the regulars was posting under the name 'Falange' and talking about how unfortunate it was that neo-fascism wasn't doing well, and what we need is more of those to get things done that those wishy-washy corporate fake lefties won't. If you think that's unfair then ask yourself, how much of your distaste for fascism has to do with its corporatist economic ideology, and how much with its non-economic side?  
by MarekNYC on Tue May 27th, 2008 at 06:06:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
On redstar and falange I happen to have a soft spot for the antifascist partisans during WWII who were then royally screwed by the victorious liberal democracies (see Greek civil war but not only there) just like the legitimate socialist government in Spain was screwed by the inaction of the liberal democracies in the 1930's (another example of socialist government being better than anything before or since until the 1970's).

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue May 27th, 2008 at 06:14:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Do you have the same soft spot for the fascist anti-Stalinist partisans in postwar Eastern Europe. In both cases, incidentally plenty of people joined who weren't into imposing fascism or Stalinism, but simply because they wanted to fight against an ugly regime, and that was their option.

It has become recently fashionable in Poland to praise the postwar fascist resistance as heroes, while decrying the wartime communist resistance as traitors. In my grad school the head of the Polish club even wanted to use the symbol of that resistance movement, the sword of Boleslaw the Brave, as the emblem of the club, which also happened to serve as the symbol of interwar Polish fascism. I snarked back in a circular e-mail that we should also add a swastika and fasces as a sign of our solidarity with fraternal movements. The e-mail wasn't all that well received and it isn't really fair to compare them, given the  circumstances, but I suspect you get my point.

by MarekNYC on Tue May 27th, 2008 at 06:22:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, I know which side of WWII I'm on.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue May 27th, 2008 at 06:38:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well yes, but unlike fascists elsewhere in Europe, the Polish ones did fight against the Nazis, so in this case you've got the symbol of a movement with an ugly ideology but which fought both Nazism and Stalinism. FWIW I supported the legal rehabilitation and the granting of veteran rights to the surviving members and I find the idea of taking away the veteran status of the Stalinist resistance atrocious but I also don't think one should forget what they stood for.  Furthermore, I've got a lot more sympathy for those who turned to communism in the thirties or the war than those who turned to fascism, but that's based on the circumstances at the time. In my family there were folks from various sides, and victims too. Today there is no excuse for either. I can 'understand' them all, but the ones I admire are those who stayed true to democratic ideals in the face of hostility and danger from both extremes.

For example my great grandfather - offered his protection to communists at the university, spoke up for the rights of fascist political prisoners, was personally denounced by Stalin and collected fascist pamphlets describing him as the treacherous servant of the Jews and the harbinger of the anti-Christ.  All the while organizing peasant strikes in the thirties, seeking to forge a democratic opposition to the Pilsudskist regime, and then working to limit the influence of the fascists in the government in exile.  It got him fired from his chair, multiple arrests, and shot at by police before the war, as a fellow traveler and pinko provocateur, and forced to return into exile after the war to escape certain torture and death at the hands of the communist secret police as a imperialist fascist lackey.

(During wartime Poland you had small communist and fascist resistance movements flanking a large ideologically diverse one that ranged from very left wing socialists with a soft spot for the USSR to borderline fascists who loved Franco and thought Mussolini wasn't too bad either)

by MarekNYC on Tue May 27th, 2008 at 06:59:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Would you be willing to write more about him?

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Fri May 30th, 2008 at 05:59:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Marek is comparing the Eastern European experience of mostly foreignly imposed communist regimes, with the quite different experience of the communists in Western Europe (and elsewhere - eg Kerala) which were if anything a force for democratization on most fronts. Note also that the grassroots communists in most of Western Europe, weren't endorsing Stalinist crimes. Rather they refused to believe they existed.

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake
by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Sat May 31st, 2008 at 02:24:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You can't possibly be equating an outdated small time Stalinist pol like Ulbricht to a homicidal maniac (supported for a time, it is true, by the US via Jimmy Carter's NSC man, Brzezinski) like Pol Pot, can you?

That's some contortions I'm seeing here, marek.

This being said, I swear I'm reading sentences out of old Tom Friedman columns. Are you his muse?

"C'est un scandale !"

by redstar on Tue May 27th, 2008 at 06:03:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
some get the chance to be leaders like Pol Pot, others only followers like Ulbricht, both supported a genocidal system as an ideal so much better than the liberal democracy you despise, that they believed that it should be imposed by force.
by MarekNYC on Tue May 27th, 2008 at 06:08:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't recall using the word "despise," Marek, that's another word you insist on putting in my mouth.

"C'est un scandale !"
by redstar on Tue May 27th, 2008 at 06:15:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You don't despise the American political system? I'm sorry then, I guess I was mistaken. So perhaps you do agree with me after all that it has serious flaws but is a hell of a lot better than communist systems?
by MarekNYC on Tue May 27th, 2008 at 06:29:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No, I don't despise it, but see it as deeply flawed, perhaps irremediably so.

Whether it is better than any properly socialist system or not remains for me to be seen, but I sincerely doubt that it is, given the violence it perpetrates on its own citizens and those of other countries, given that there are proper examples of socialist countries which did neither violence to their own people nor to other countries as the US has done. In fact, the US has invaded (by proxy or themselves) a few of these.

History doesn't get decided in a decade or two or even half centuries...look how long it took for the Republican form of government to take root in the West, in the face of incredible opposition by retrograde forces of the time. (I don't need to tell you about how this worked out in Poland and Lituania). And now we take it for granted and pass over some of the early excesses of the first proper Republicans (which were in France, not in America, despite the popular convention to the contrary in the US).

But well into the following century, even into the 20th, there were those who opposed, in Europe, wholesale and outright the Republican form of government.

I see socialism as simply a further step forward, moving forward along the path of further equality, which breeds further public civility without which true liberty and freedom cannot be attained, and recognize that, as with the institution of Republican government to replace the absolutist monarchies which preceded them, there were great excesses, sometimes murderous, in the initial stages in some (but not all) parts of the world. Zhou En Lai was asked about the French Revolution and he replied "it's too early to tell" how it will turn out, and he is right, in my view, but at least on this score, I am optimistic where others perhaps are not.

I also recognize in the US economic system, something I'm not convince that you recognize, inhuman coercion inflicted on people, which I have seen close up and personal, first hand, and which you might also see if you were to, say, spend time in the average hem/onc office of a hospital near you for any extended period of time. This colors my view of the US greatly, I admit.

"C'est un scandale !"

by redstar on Tue May 27th, 2008 at 06:48:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No, Pol Pot, is not your average soviet-style putsch leader. In fact Pol Pot was brought down by the Vietnamese People's Army in what was surely the closest thing to a humanitarian intervention in world history ;-) This at the time that the US was cutting deals with the maniac and thus was outraged at the Vietnamese actions.

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake
by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Sat May 31st, 2008 at 02:30:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Based on Redstar's comments here and when you two went at it last year with similar arguments, I think the best label to apply to Redstar is French nationalist.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Tue May 27th, 2008 at 06:48:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
To understand redstar, one has to know a bit of French political geography - and history :

La Seyne sur Mer, which I believe is redstar hometown (?),  used to be (still is ?) a very well fortified stronghold of the most orthodox communists.

So it's pure nostalgia, right redstar ? If so, well, I share that with you : I was shooled there for 3 years...

by balbuz on Fri May 30th, 2008 at 04:12:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
then maybe you knew Maurice Paul too?

Small world...

"C'est un scandale !"

by redstar on Fri May 30th, 2008 at 04:39:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No, no, I was just a kid, and never actually went back there. But I distinctly remember the yards, the atmosphere of this cité ouvrière, the prolétaires in blue overalls...
by balbuz on Fri May 30th, 2008 at 05:17:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The students marching toward the factories to "meet the workers" found the doors closed. The unions didn't want them: the workers found the students disorganized and irresponsible.

There is a difference between what the unions wanted in 1968 and what the workers, some at least, wanted. As in 1936, the worker were quicker to go on strike than their unions ; and those unions were intent on not rocking the boat too much. At least some of the workers would have liked a bit more upheaval. And indeed, one of the changes of the post-68 society was less authoritarianism in work relations. Which later came to be reversed with the threat of unemployment.

Auferre, trucidare, rapere, falsis nominibus imperium; atque, ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Tue May 27th, 2008 at 04:44:49 AM EST
Good point on the schism between some of the worker groups and their syndical representation at the time.  

"C'est un scandale !"
by redstar on Tue May 27th, 2008 at 12:25:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No uprising in the US ???

Evidently Chicago must be in another country entirely.

Chicago Democratic Convention

For many it was a watershed event. After the Tet offensive that January many Americans began to shift their opinions of the war in Vietnam; after Chicago '68 they began to doubt the ability of American institutions to tolerate active dissension.

Chicago '68 was more than just another in a series of antiwar protests, and it was more than just a riot--no matter, whose riot. Chicago '68 was a focal point of the decade. On the streets and in the parks of Chicago the social conflicts of the Sixties were on display.

Heads were cracked, tear gas billowed, police lines advanced through demonstrators--and television cameras captured some of the graphic scenes. The eyes of the nation focused on Chicago and we decided who we were, what side we were on, and what we would fight for. Chicago changed minds, Chicago changed politics, Chicago changed the Left, Chicago changed the media, Chicago changed those who were here and those who watched from far away, and Chicago changed Chicago.

What happened in Chicago in August of 1968 changed our political and cultural institutions, and so it shaped our current political and cultural life. If we understand Chicago '68 we will understand not only a major event in our history but we will also better understand who we are now.




keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue May 27th, 2008 at 11:03:45 AM EST
Written, no doubt, by an American boomer participant (or sympathizer). Nostalgia is a strong analgesic for the effects of aging.

And a short time thereafter, Nixon was inaugurated, and was in due time giving his "silent Americans" speech, seeing his approval rating hit 70% (from 50%) overnight.

My larger point was that the students weren't the focus of change so much as the focus of media attention; the real change came from the back story, and it was driven by workers, not students. And in the US, there was none of this going on at all, the student riots in Chicago were nothing compared to worker riots in that same city nearly a century before, which 120 years later, we still commemorate every year (though notably, not in the US).

Also note - the protestors in Chicago were primarily anti-war protestors. And the war in Vietnam continued for a good seven more years. Real successful, they were. Though American boomers will have you believe they changed the world, the truth of the matter is somewhat other. Thus, I pass over them here.

"C'est un scandale !"

by redstar on Tue May 27th, 2008 at 11:46:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Not all uprisings work.

"I said, 'Wait a minute, Chester, You know I'm a peaceful man...'" Robbie Robertson
by NearlyNormal on Thu May 29th, 2008 at 02:56:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What happened in Chicago in August of 1968 changed our political and cultural institutions, and so it shaped our current political and cultural life.

Except in Chicago.

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."

by poemless on Tue May 27th, 2008 at 04:48:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hah!

"C'est un scandale !"
by redstar on Tue May 27th, 2008 at 04:52:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Something like this actually happened in Britain? I hardly believe it.

I dson't know about Britain; but the author definitely forgot the Czech Republic.

And this is the true lesson, I think, for us in the future. The focus on these events tended to be on the students, but the real story was the back story.

Yep. Gáspár Miklós Tamás ("TGM"), Hungary's loudest hard-left intellectual, also emphasized the ignored general strike as the main event (though I wonder what's your opinion of his view that the strike was ultimately killed by the PCF who betrayed the workers). He even added a personal anecdote that put light on an aspect I wasn't aware of: that during the peak of the event, de Gaulle fled as far as Romania. There, a young TGM (who is of Transsylvanian origin) witnessed how de Gaulle greeted his hosts by saying, always race-conscious, "here is a Latin nation encircled by Slavs and Magyars".

Now, on the other hand. From lots of Central European revolution experience over two and a half centuries, I think a true-blue revolution needs both the students and the workers; it needs a coalition of them.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Fri May 30th, 2008 at 02:14:48 PM EST