European Tribune - Community, Politics & Progress.

Learning English -- Request for Information

by ATinNM
Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 11:09:41 AM EST

I am interested in finding what you found to be the largest problem when learning English as a second language. I am especially interested in comments by anyone who is in the process of learning English.

This request is made to gather test data for a computer project I'm working on.

Thank you for your participation.

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Learning English -- Request for Information | 123 comments (123 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: Learning English -- Request for Information (4.00 / 5)

Phrasal verbs were easily the hardest thing for me to master.

One of the things that I imagine can be a problem for a computer is the fact that the same English word can function in several parts of speech (typically as a verb, noun and adjective) without having to change its form. I am not sure how a computer would resolve that ambiguity but I think it's something a human gets used to quite quickly and the added flexibility is useful in generating speech but makes it harder to analyse syntax.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 11:25:00 AM EST

Re: Learning English -- Request for Information (none / 0)

Were you able to learn how to use them before you lived in the US?

Have epistemological model of Complex Information environments. Will Travel.

by ATinNM on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 11:59:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Learning English -- Request for Information (4.00 / 5)

Well, I passed my Cambridge English Proficiency Examination at the age of 16 without mastering them and that was half a lifetime away and before I spent a month in the US on a high-school exchange... I guess not, is the answer.

I would put phrasal verbs in the same category as learning vocabulary - it's something you acquire over the long term, gradually. The added difficulty is that the verb and the preposition can be separated and also sometimes the ambiguity between a standalone preposition and a preposition that is part of the verb.

Another thing you only learn through exposure, if that, is what "sounds natural" over and above being grammatically correct. And idioms, too. And sometimes even after many years you still get caught in idioms such as "I hear you" vs. "I can hear you" (this happened to me once not so long ago, to general hilarity).

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 12:50:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Learning English -- Request for Information (4.00 / 2)

Oh, BTW, I hate the wiki article on prasal verbs I linked to above: they seem to throw in just about every combination of verb + particle whether or not this changes the meaning of the root verb, which sort of makes the concept pointless.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 01:12:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Learning English -- Request for Information (4.00 / 2)

Right, actual language use can bear little congruence to "correct" language rules.

Then toss in the American/English differences and things can get sticky. My favorite example is, "I'm stuffed."

American = "The meal you served filled my stomach to fullness"

English = something rather different

;-)

Have epistemological model of Complex Information environments. Will Travel.

by ATinNM on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 01:22:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Learning English -- Request for Information (4.00 / 3)

That one's very context dependent. What's confusing isn't just that verbs and adverbs and adjectives collide and bounce off each other promiscuously in English, but that some idioms are only idiomatic in very specific contexts.

English people - even polite English people - wouldn't often say 'I'm stuffed' to mean 'I'm screwed.'

But they might say 'You're stuffed' or 'We're stuffed' or 'They're stuffed.'

Or they could say 'Well, that's me stuffed.'

Or 'I'm seriously stuffed.'

But without modification in the first person 'I'm stuffed' usually just means 'I'm full.'

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 03:23:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Learning English -- Request for Information (none / 1)

Interesting. My father stationed in the UK during WW 2 used that expression after a dinner in a private house and got strange, somewhat strained, looks from his host and family.

Wonder if the American usage has spread through films/books?

Have epistemological model of Complex Information environments. Will Travel.

by ATinNM on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 03:29:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Learning English -- Request for Information (4.00 / 2)

English has changed since then. 'I'm stuffed' sounds quite posh and formal, and possibly always did, so you'd get different reactions depending on context.

Today English is much more about exaggeration - hence 'seriously, 'so', 'totally', etc.

This makes machine translation hard because you don't just have to parse the words, you have to parse that specific kind of formation, and also know something about the class and age of the person speaking.

This is where machine translation goes wrong - a lot of communication is at least as much about role play with canned phrases and constructions as about grammar.

For spoken language you can't make sense of the meaning just from the grammar rules on their own. You need to know the role play context and also have a library of current constructions.

Written language is simpler because it's more formal and structured, but you can still fall over some of the wackier constructions that turn up.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 07:23:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Learning English -- Request for Information (none / 1)

I grew up in a family that rarely said anything simple like 'Could you close the door, please' - it would be 'put wood in t'hole' (with a Yorkshire accent) or 'Is there a draught in here?'. It was all a game. My father was an uncontrollable punner. A kind of Corporate Ronnie Barker.

I thought it was normal that one could have fun with language. It wasn't till high school that I found it necessary to restrict the fun a bit. But that 'fun with language' of my childhood remains a major component of my writing today, though I find it harder in Finnish because you can't mistreat it in the same way and still expect to make sense.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Jun 2nd, 2008 at 09:52:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Learning English -- Request for Information (4.00 / 3)

In English "I'm stuffed" has both meanings, depending on the context and tone ...

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 03:25:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Learning English -- Request for Information (4.00 / 2)

Another example of English/American usage is "a pack of fags".

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 03:53:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Learning English -- Request for Information (4.00 / 2)

As an impoverished art student I used to eat faggots quite often.

And what about the English biscuit company who failed to export their main product to the US - Ginger Nuts.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Jun 2nd, 2008 at 09:55:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Learning English -- Request for Information (none / 1)

Or to use a prepositional verb, compare and contrast American and English "knocked up."

by rifek on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 11:12:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Learning English -- Request for Information (4.00 / 2)

Phrasal verbs were easily the hardest thing for me to master.

After college I went to Poland and ended up teaching English and translating. The first day of class I asked the same question, and got the same answer. I nervously said we'd cover that later. Unfortunately, I'd never heard of phrasal verbs or prepositional verbs or anything like that. At the first break I asked one of my colleagues what the hell is this phrasal verb stuff - he patiently explained, in perfect English with just a slight accent. He of course had proper training in both teaching and the language - yet I got more money cause the parents liked the idea of 'native speakers' teaching their kids. Beginning teachers generally suck, untrained ones... poor kids.

by MarekNYC on Mon Jun 2nd, 2008 at 04:10:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Learning English -- Request for Information (none / 0)

I first truly learned technical terminology when I tried learning French. Until then, I just "knew" how it all worked.

"I said, 'Wait a minute, Chester, You know I'm a peaceful man...'" Robbie Robertson

by NearlyNormal on Mon Jun 2nd, 2008 at 12:26:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Learning English -- Request for Information (4.00 / 2)

Yup. I remember an English class where our teacher decided to do some of the grammatical and sentence structure stuff. Blank looks until he switched to French to explain English to a bunch of people who were mostly native English speakers or the equivalent and where no one spoke French better than English (lots of folks were native level in both, but none in French but not English).

And everything I know about Polish grammar comes from Russian class. I've never taken a Polish language class in my life, whether for foreigners or native speakers. In retrospect the funniest part of Russian class was learning about verb aspect, which is both one of the most fundamental parts of Polish (and Russian) grammar, and generally the hardest thing for (non Slav) foreigners to get - I had no idea that aspect existed even though I'd been using it correctly my entire life.

by MarekNYC on Mon Jun 2nd, 2008 at 12:59:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You don't know about phrasal verbs? (none / 1)

With respect to phrasal verbs in English... MarekNYC, you are a native speaker (as am I) and you didn't know about them? How is that possible?

Clearly you haven't taken much interest in your own language. I love learning languages and still try to expand my adequate French, my almost-passable Spanish and my few dozen words and phrases of Mandarin Chinese.

As for phrasal verbs, I've known about their existence, and the problems associated with them, for... well, for a full six or seven minutes now... since I started reading the comments to this post.

Get with it, man!

by Ralph on Mon Jun 2nd, 2008 at 03:17:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You don't know about phrasal verbs? (none / 1)

I didn't know about phrasal verbs because I learned about them separately as particle verbs and prepositional verbs. Given the exceptions and conflicting rules within each group, I think combining them is just a nightmare.

by rifek on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 11:10:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Learning English -- Request for Information (none / 0)

I have tried to translate with Google, from Spanish into English, this:

Este medio es el más importante.
and got this:
Middle East is the most important.

After, this:

Esta manera es la más importante.
and got this:
This way is the most important.

When Procrustes looks after you, you're sure to fit in.

by PerCLupi on Mon Jun 2nd, 2008 at 08:52:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Learning English -- Request for Information (none / 0)

How do you get this medium is the most important?

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 2nd, 2008 at 08:54:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Learning English -- Request for Information (none / 0)

This appears after several attempts in the following order:

Este medium es el más importante.
This is the most important medium.

Este medio es el más importante.
Middle East is the most important.

Este medium es el más importante one.
This medium is the most important one.

Este medium es el más importante
This medium is the most important
(Only without end point!)

But if you know English, you do not need translator!

When Procrustes looks after you, you're sure to fit in.

by PerCLupi on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 12:22:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Learning English -- Request for Information (4.00 / 4)

Most of my English I learned by immersion - living with English speaking families, watching English TV, playing then untranslated video games, reading books - so I don't really remember what difficulties I had. Is this to help build translation software or didactic software ?

Auferre, trucidare, rapere, falsis nominibus imperium; atque, ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 12:38:00 PM EST

Re: Learning English -- Request for Information (none / 1)

Trying to get a feel for language presentation(s) by non-native English users to our Natural Language Understanding System. Learning difficulties imply non-standard use in the area(s) of difficulty and thus problems in parsing the input.

Have epistemological model of Complex Information environments. Will Travel.

by ATinNM on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 01:11:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Learning English -- Request for Information (4.00 / 3)

Most difficult? Pronounciation, and its total disconnect from the written form (that's why Fran's joke is no joke but a dream for me). Mine was and is awful. I am always uncertain about a number of sounds ('th' in particular).

Then there are the prepositions, whose use may not fit my intuition (which of in/at/on do you use in a phrasal verb or such things).

Then there are general-purpose words with many many meanings (project, assess, program etc.), sometimes I have to think hard to find the right one.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 01:44:57 PM EST

Re: Learning English -- Request for Information (4.00 / 2)

I learned to talk English first, so my problem became the spelling. As English to me is not a phonetic language, i found that rather difficult.

And grammar too, but that is not English relatet. I always liked to communicate in a other language, but writing it was often torture to me. :-)

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 01:50:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Learning English -- Request for Information (4.00 / 2)

That's the reason for the US habit conducting spelling competitions: Spelling Bees.

If English was logical through/threw/Drew would all have the same letter combination for the phoneme 'oo'. But it isn't and we don't.

Have epistemological model of Complex Information environments. Will Travel.

by ATinNM on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 02:44:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Learning English -- Request for Information (4.00 / 5)

Written English isn't a phonetic language.

Being one of the lucky ones who just soaked up spelling without ever having to think about it, I never really knew how hard it was until I had to teach a catch-up programme to slow readers (all of whom had English as a second language).

There are rules. And exceptions. And exceptions to the exceptions. And several ways of producing the same sound, and if you can't intuit it you just have to learn which word belongs to which family.

It's horrendous. I felt like apologising to these poor kids. Sorry, Fran!

Every so often, someone suggests phonetic spelling might solve the problem. But that's a different set of issues, because a northern 'a' in, say, the word bath, is very different to a southern one.

by Sassafras on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 02:49:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Learning English -- Request for Information (4.00 / 3)

Oh god no, I was part of the late 1960's phonetic spelling experiment called i.t.a. and my writing has never recovered. I can't spell small words, and my mind can just lock up solid trying to work out how to spell a couple of four letter words. as someone with mild dyslexia as well it destroyed three years of my schooling

Interviewer: What do you believe is behind this recent increase in terrorist bombings? Helpmann: Bad sportsmanship

by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 02:56:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Learning English -- Request for Information (none / 1)

...the late 1960's phonetic spelling experiment called i.t.a. ...

My daughter went through that in the UK for a while in the early 70s. We pulled her out of the English system because we knew she wouldn't be there to get turned around to traditional English spelling. Sounds like it didn't work well anyway.

won't wonders never cease? _ Snuffy Smith

by Gringo (stargazing camel at aoldotcom) on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 04:45:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

English is so a phonetic language ... (4.00 / 2)

... its just that its Middle English ... modern English is a large number of different phonetic languages in a barely suppressed state of war.

Utsukushii kereba sore de ii

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 04:18:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: English is so a phonetic language ... (none / 1)

Even Middle English (Chaucer for example) will give you plenty of spelling variants!

But standardised spelling is a recent phenomenon (C19). If it may be called "standardised" as far as English goes!

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 04:51:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Of course, as President Jackson point out ... (4.00 / 2)

... any person who cannot spell a perfectly good English word in at least two different ways is severely lacking in the brains department.

Tewe bluddy rite, I seigh.

Utsukushii kereba sore de ii

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 04:56:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: English is so a phonetic language ... (none / 0)

"Standardized" English spelling is one of the more hilarious jokes perpetrated upon the globe, only surpassed by "Standardized" English grammar. Both are taught in the schoolroom and then the poor kids have to learn the 1,001 exceptions. The Rule/Grammar approach might as well have "Abandon All Hope You Who Enter Here" embossed on the textbook cover.

Have epistemological model of Complex Information environments. Will Travel.

by ATinNM on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 05:04:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Learning English -- Request for Information (none / 0)

Ramón J. Sender wrote a book entitled Carolux Rex. And finished "God shave the King". He was received and was entertainment by the King of UK.

:-D

When Procrustes looks after you, you're sure to fit in.

by PerCLupi on Mon Jun 2nd, 2008 at 04:06:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Learning English -- Request for Information (none / 1)

The attempt by Norman-French speaking Norman men-at-arms to shack-up with Anglo-Saxon barmaids did terrible things to English. ;-)

The 'ough' combination is notoriously unstable in its spelling/pronunciation relationship, to wit:

through
thought
though
cough
rough
plough

'th' differences stem from the use of the combination to symbolize the old Germanic þ - a hard 'th' as in "the" - and the Frenchified soft pronunciation as in "there."

If it makes you feel any better, overall even us native speakers have a hard time with words we've only seen written or spoken and then attempt to speak/write them.

Have epistemological model of Complex Information environments. Will Travel.

by ATinNM on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 02:35:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Learning English -- Request for Information (4.00 / 2)

And I come from the market between the two cultures that actually put buyer and seller together. We have French derived names for food in the kitchen and Saxon-derived names for on the hoof. Beef-cow, mutton-sheep etc.

Leicester has some claim to being the crucible of the English language with the largest open-market in Europe for some 800-odd year. Buyers and sellers always have to find a way to communicate.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 03:15:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Learning English -- Request for Information (none / 0)

How did calling someone one's very own personal water fowl become a term of jocular endearment?

me duck.

Have epistemological model of Complex Information environments. Will Travel.

by ATinNM on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 05:07:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Learning English -- Request for Information (none / 1)

It was originally a shibboleth among members of the anti-Norman Resistance.

Me duck.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 05:42:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Learning English -- Request for Information (none / 1)

"a woman's breast" ["...whose pritty duckys I trust shortly to kysse," Henry VIII, letter to Anne Boleyn, c.1536].

Or a corruption of my duke?

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 05:58:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Learning English -- Request for Information (none / 1)

my duke? me duck?

Interviewer: What do you believe is behind this recent increase in terrorist bombings? Helpmann: Bad sportsmanship

by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 06:01:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Learning English -- Request for Information (none / 0)

Does anyone know where it really comes from? It appears to be centered on the East Midlands and it is a term of endearment - more than that there are a lot of etymological guesses, but nothing concrete.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Jun 2nd, 2008 at 11:26:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Not so exciting (none / 1)

There's an OED quote here that defines it as vaguely "chap" or "fellow".

Partridge's Historical Slang says it's a "colloquial endearment: from ca 1590".

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Jun 2nd, 2008 at 12:06:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Learning English -- Request for Information (none / 1)

through
thought
though
cough
rough
plough

I am certain about the pronounciation of only three of these...

hard 'th' as in "the"

LOL... it's the most common word, but I DON'T know what the 'th' in "the" should properly be. Should it be a cross between d and z? A hard d? A 'spitting through teeth' t? At different times from diffewrent people speaking English, I seem to hear all versions...

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 03:26:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Its a cross between th and z ... (none / 1)

... and the Germanic soft th is closest to the Spanish soft d, but not precisely the same.

Hold your tongue on your teeth and hiss. Now hold your tongue in the same place, but try to vocalize a hard z instead.

Of course, your mileage will vary since the soft-th sound morphs a lot, and the th-z sound seems like it goes along for the ride ... but that'll be close enough for government work.

Utsukushii kereba sore de ii

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 04:24:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Learning English -- Request for Information (none / 1)

I'd be amazed if you could determine the proper (sic) way to speak 'ough' in those words. I only know the difference because I'm a native English speaker. When I come to a new - to me - 'ough' word I'm as lost as you. Is it 'uff' or 'ew' or 'ee-oo' or --- what? "Gough," for all I know, is pronounced "Throgmorton-Smith." :-0

The way "the" is pronounced varies according to country or origin and regional differences within the country. Usually it varies between a hard 'd' "duh" and a lisping "th-uh" -- both single syllables with a slight aspiration on the second 'uh.' Just to be a pain, "the" when used as an identificational emphasis can be, in American, pronounced 'thee' as "THEE ball" conveying "That's the one!"

We do that to annoy and confuse people.

Have epistemological model of Complex Information environments. Will Travel.

by ATinNM on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 04:38:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Learning English -- Request for Information (4.00 / 2)

And we just have to know proper nouns.

My grandparents came from a village called Houghton-le-Spring. Hoe-tun

But I used to work with a woman called Houghton. Hor-tun

There's another Houghton signposted about thirty miles from here. I have no idea how it's spoken.

by Sassafras on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 04:49:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Learning English -- Request for Information (4.00 / 2)

Yup. With Proper Names all the rules go out the window.

In New York the street Houston is called "Hows-ton." Houston, the city in Texas, is "Hews-ton."

Don't ask me why. Just 'tis.

Have epistemological model of Complex Information environments. Will Travel.

by ATinNM on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 04:55:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Learning English -- Request for Information (4.00 / 2)

I"ve been laughed at for not knowing that, too. Why on Earth would I know that?

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 04:57:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Learning English -- Request for Information (4.00 / 3)

I've twice been asked to settle disputes between French people about the "proper" pronunciation of Hewston Texas or Tooson Arizona.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 05:38:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Learning English -- Request for Information (none / 1)

I've long since stopped trying to tell people that Maryland is not actually Mary-land.

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 05:46:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Learning English -- Request for Information (none / 1)

Dammit. So what is it then?

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 06:07:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Learning English -- Request for Information (none / 1)

Maryland is not actually Mary-land.

Mare' i lund, with a short i. At least that's how I say it.

by asdf on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 06:53:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Learning English -- Request for Information (none / 1)

Mare'l'nd?

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 06:58:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Learning English -- Request for Information (none / 1)

Yeah, that's it, although the Baltimore accent would have it more like "Merlin."

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 07:02:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Learning English -- Request for Information (4.00 / 2)

And would also pronounce Baltimore something like Balmer, but with that L only barely there.

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 07:04:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Learning English -- Request for Information (none / 1)

Bahm'r?

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 07:09:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Learning English -- Request for Information (4.00 / 2)

It would be hard to render into phonetic spelling, because the L is still actually there, it just gets sort of softened.

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 07:18:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Learning English -- Request for Information (none / 1)

Baltimorese.

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 07:19:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Learning English -- Request for Information (4.00 / 2)

Oh, one of the hardest things to add to my reply to AT... the neutral vowel and all its different spellings. At least in French the neutral vowel is unambiguously spelled as an unaccented e.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 07:05:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Learning English -- Request for Information (none / 0)

See Schwa.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Jun 2nd, 2008 at 04:07:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Learning English -- Request for Information (none / 1)

like the 'a' in about [əˈbaʊt]
like the 'e' in taken [ˈteɪkən]
like the 'i' in pencil [ˈpɛnsəl]
like the 'o' in eloquent [ˈɛləkwənt]
like the 'u' in supply [səˈplaɪ]
like the 'y' in sibyl [ˈsɪbəl]

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 2nd, 2008 at 05:20:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Learning English -- Request for Information (4.00 / 2)

And van Gogh is van Ho<spit>h

or if it isn't then Nomad will correct me ;-)

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 04:58:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Learning English -- Request for Information (4.00 / 3)

throo
thort
thoh
coff
ruff
plow

(I know, I know....)

I'm not a speech therapist, but I work with a child with speech difficulties-and all children I've known with English as an additional language seem to have trouble with th.

It doesn't help that estuarine-one of the dominant accents- often drops the th and replaces it with t. Or a f. Are you wif me so far?

Practise the sound with your tongue pushed a little out, relaxed between your lower lip and upper teeth. (You can make the mouth movements less exaggerated when you're happy with the sound). Just breathe out at first; that's soft thhhhhhhhhh and all three of the th words above begin with it.

Then (and if this doesn't make sense, it's my explanation) start to buzz like a bee/rev like a motorbike at the same time.
Thhhhhhhhh. That's hard th.

Finally, if you take your top teeth very abruptly off your tongue, the th ends sharply in an uh. The.

by Sassafras on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 04:44:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Learning English -- Request for Information (4.00 / 2)

I see you, trying to sneak that R sound into "thought."

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 04:59:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Learning English -- Request for Information (4.00 / 3)

Dammit. My bid for linguistic imperialism foiled.

(And I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for that meddling stormy)

by Sassafras on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 05:05:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Learning English -- Request for Information (none / 0)

Bwa-ha-ha-ha...

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 05:06:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Learning English -- Request for Information (4.00 / 2)

There are two "th" sounds, one voiced, one unvoiced.

Voiced means you vibrate your vocal chords, unvoiced means you don't.

You put the tip of your tongue beneath your upper incisives, blow a little air between tongue and teeth, and pull tongue away.

If you "voice" it, it will be "the " as in "the", "this", "that". (corresponds to Old English eth: ð)

If you do not "voice" it, it will be "th" as in "thick" or "thin". (corresponds to Old English thorn: þ)

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 05:07:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Learning English -- Request for Information (4.00 / 2)

I admit this is pure didactic theory. In practice, people pronounce all kinds of ways, including, as Sassafras says, replacing "th" with "t" or "f" or "v"...

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 05:11:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Learning English -- Request for Information (4.00 / 2)

... or a "d."

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 05:49:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Learning English -- Request for Information (4.00 / 5)

I have an excellent vocabularly but when I speak it tends to be fairly basic vocab that I use simply because I can't pronounce so many words, having never quite heard them fully. I've been made a mockery of so many times since I was a child that I won't go near stuff I don't know. The result is that people usually comment on how I explain things in simple and understandable language eg giving training or presentations, so I guess no major harm done in the long term.

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 05:17:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Learning English -- Request for Information (4.00 / 2)

My dad still can't do 'th' and he lived in the US for twelve years, then spent the next twenty working in an English speaking environment. I couldn't pronounce it until I was thirteen, though that has to do with a congenital fine motor control problem - I also have a very hard time writing legibly, dealing with knots, couldn't pronounce 'sz, 'cz' and 'rz' until I was eighteen, etc. (and the Hungarians are confusing with their insistence on pronouncing s/sz c/cz the wrong way around). What's fun for English speakers learning Polish is that there are two sort of 'sh' and 'ch' sounds in Polish, neither an exact equivalent to the English one (sz -ś/si[] etc.)

by MarekNYC on Mon Jun 2nd, 2008 at 01:23:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Learning English -- Request for Information (none / 1)

Can't help sorry. I learnt it before I could walk more or less.

Disgustingly monolingual. I should be ashamed but learning stuff makes my head hurt these days.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 01:54:06 PM EST

Re: Learning English -- Request for Information (none / 0)

You could explain to a benighted Colonialist why you Brits keep putting extraneous 'u's all over the place:

armour
labour

& etc.

;-)

Have epistemological model of Complex Information environments. Will Travel.

by ATinNM on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 02:40:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Learning English -- Request for Information (4.00 / 5)

Blame the French.

That's what we usually do.

by Sassafras on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 02:58:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Learning English -- Request for Information (4.00 / 2)

its not like we hold a grudge, but they did shoot our king in the eye.

Interviewer: What do you believe is behind this recent increase in terrorist bombings? Helpmann: Bad sportsmanship

by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 03:05:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Learning English -- Request for Information (none / 1)

That's one in the eye for us then ;-)

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 03:17:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Learning English -- Request for Information (4.00 / 2)

Well people, then here is your chance for revenge!

SPAMALOT - I tried it, but must warn you, I won when I was fighting for the French. :-)

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 03:25:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Learning English -- Request for Information (4.00 / 2)

so just because you can't spell or pronounce words proper, you want to blame us?

can't you hear the U in labour?

Interviewer: What do you believe is behind this recent increase in terrorist bombings? Helpmann: Bad sportsmanship

by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 02:59:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Learning English -- Request for Information (none / 1)

Even in RP it's 'LAYber'. The difference between posh and not posh seems to be a slightly longer 'r' at the end, and a slightly more laboured 'ay'.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 03:27:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Learning English -- Request for Information (4.00 / 2)

Strictly, labor should be pronounced labe-or.

And it's not. It's pronounced more like labe-er.

So it's a friendly gesture - neighbourly, even - to put in an extra 'u' to signal the different pronunciation.

Huh. Trust a bunch of Americans to change the spelling and still not get it phonetically right.

by Sassafras on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 04:14:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You can't go by the pronunciation ... (4.00 / 2)

... hell, American English was already pronounced at least four distinct ways by the time that ol' Noah pushed through his reform.

Hell, there aint even any agreement in the main US pronunciations on how many syllables there are in neighbour.

If only you bloody poms has left us a legacy of a phonetically spelled language, then it would have tended to morph without requiring a change in spelling, as in Castillano being pronounced with a soft "jano" in Argentina, but not requiring any change in spelling.

But no, you bequeathed us a system of spelling that was a bloody mess ... there is no opportunity for evolution of pronunciation to follow along a channel established by the spelling when the spelling is such a hodge-podge, such a patchwork quilt. I only regret ol' Noah had not got rid of a few more stupidities.

Utsukushii kereba sore de ii

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 04:31:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You can't go by the pronunciation ... (none / 1)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Standardisation of English spelling took off in 1755 with the publication of Johnson's dictionary.

You had your revolution when?

I mean, if you hadn't wasted great brains like those of Jefferson and Franklin on fripperies like the Declaration of Independence, they could have made a useful contribution.

by Sassafras on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 05:14:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Certainly. Just like CP/M and the S100 ... (none / 1)

... systems, being first off the block is a claim to being first off the block. Its not unusual for the first round of standard to include any number of glitches and design flaws.

Utsukushii kereba sore de ii

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 05:17:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I find it puzzling that ... (4.00 / 2)

... you date the beginnings of cultural independence to the break-out of political revolution.

Surely you have the sequence reversed. That is, surely, on your dating of the first faltering start to the standardisation of pommie English spelling to the middle of the eighteenth century, the problem is clearly with bloody pommy dithering and delaying in getting started with standardising spelling ... if you had got it underway by the turn of the century eighteenth century, it would have had a chance to become entrenched in the North American English speaking states prior to the influx in immigrants from beyond of the Hibernian Isles.

Utsukushii kereba sore de ii

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 05:28:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I find it puzzling that ... (none / 1)

Well, if you damn' Yanks had had the common decency to give us fifty years' notice of your revolution, we could have ~~squashed the ringleaders in their cradles~~ obliged you.

As it is, I fail to see why we should be held responsible for your failure to upgrade our language. Even if we did hang on to the source codes.

And we're still waiting for royalty payments for every unit in which you've installed English 1.0.

by Sassafras on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 05:42:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I find it puzzling that ... (none / 1)

I also find it puzzling that the clear and evident improvements in spelling were not pushed through into improvements further across the board in the language.

Ah, well, ce'st la vie. Maybe that's for the next wave of English speakers to take on.

Utsukushii kereba sore de ii

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 06:01:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You can't go by the pronunciation ... (4.00 / 2)

"If only you bloody poms has left us a legacy of a phonetically spelled language..."

But they did even better, they left us with a mix of several phonetically spelled languages, all in one. Just because we don't prounounce or words correctly is hardly their fault. All those complications about "ough" words go away if you simply follow the rules.

by asdf on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 07:08:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

And where the bloody hell where they when ... (4.00 / 2)

... it came time to enforce the rules? They were in a different bloody country by then, weren't they? All because they let the damn frog navy give them the slip and capture the main guerrilla suppression force at Yorktown.

If the poms are involved, then its always their bloody fault one way or another. That's the one single clear and absolute principle I learned in my decade in Oz.

Utsukushii kereba sore de ii

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 09:10:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Two (irrelevant) points (none / 1)

1. There is the old example of ghoti - attributed to JB Shaw, but Wiki says otherwise:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghoti

2. I've notice that the BBC worldservice has been Americanizing their vocabulary over the past several years. I don't know if this extends to the domestic broadcasts as well.

Mobile phones are now called cell phones as per US usage (or they say "mobile or cell phones").

Prices are quoted in dollars even when the story is about something in the UK.

The stuff you use to drive your car is now call "gas" rather than petrol. I'm not sure about "lift" and how one counts the floors of a building.

I'm always fascinated by accents. Children seem to pick up the accents of their cohorts more than those of their parents, especially immigrants. It was once thought that the inroads of TV into the US South would obliterate the regional accents and replace them with "standard" midwestern speech, but it hasn't happened.

Policies not Politics
---- Daily Landscape

by rdf (robert.feinman@gmail.com) on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 04:11:18 PM EST

Re: Learning English -- Request for Information (4.00 / 3)

My opinion is not significant. I learned English by myself, to read. I am able to read complex texts.
Sometimes I have raised be able to speak and understand, because my vocabulary is extensive.
My difficulties in achieving this are that the languages that I have handled better (Spanish, French, Greek, Latin, Italian ...) "are based primarily on the words at a greater extent than English, which is based more on the phonic group".

When Procrustes looks after you, you're sure to fit in.

by PerCLupi on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 04:56:40 PM EST

Re: Learning English -- Request for Information (none / 0)

You have given me exactly the kind of information I was looking for.

Thank you for your response.

If you had a choice between:

The ability to pose a question, in your own way, to a computer database
The computer gave you a list of Fill-in-the-Blanks templates such as (in these simple examples):

I am looking for ____ about ____
What does _____ have to do with ____

3. A pull-down menu of query terms (Who, What, When) combined with Fill-in-the-Blanks?

which would you prefer?

Have epistemological model of Complex Information environments. Will Travel.

by ATinNM on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 05:42:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Learning English -- Request for Information (4.00 / 4)

I think that the three are complementary ways.

Fill-in-the-Blanks (2, 3) does not provide fluidity.

The number 1 can help students try to express themselves. This would encourage apprentices.

The number 2 helps set idiomatic "false friends".

The number 3 is suitable for aspects of meaning and understanding, not merely lexical.

To clarify further, I need to know specific details.

:-D

When Procrustes looks after you, you're sure to fit in.

by PerCLupi on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 06:07:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Learning English -- Request for Information (4.00 / 2)

They are complimentary ways and intended to be so.

Briefly, we are working on a database system with a natural language interface. The idea is to use English language queries -- "questions" -- as the basis of extracting information. Presently the design only accepts standard, well-formed, English language queries.

From other comments and discussions in this diary you will realize "standard" and "well-formed" are nebulous terms. ;-)

The 3 ways I presented represent our best effort to provide the non-native English speaker a range of possible interface options including a mixture of the three 'pure' options. The idea is to allow the user to chose a level at which they feel comfortable and/or matches the type of query they are posing to the system.

Have epistemological model of Complex Information environments. Will Travel.

by ATinNM on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 06:27:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Learning English -- Request for Information (none / 1)

Interesting. I'm going to think about it. This is in line with the "scheduled teaching."

When Procrustes looks after you, you're sure to fit in.

by PerCLupi on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 06:39:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Learning English -- Request for Information (none / 1)

I, as a professor of language and literature mother tongue, or as a teacher of Latin and Greek, I've always distrustful of the system Fill-in-the-Blanks. This system eliminates the context. The mere word strikes me as inappropriate to learn a language. And much more a language such as English, which requires sentence.

When Procrustes looks after you, you're sure to fit in.

by PerCLupi on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 06:26:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Learning English -- Request for Information (none / 0)

I did not realize you were a Professor of Languages.

Please accept my apology, sir, for telling you things you already know.

Have epistemological model of Complex Information environments. Will Travel.

by ATinNM on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 06:42:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Learning English -- Request for Information (none / 1)

You're talking to one of the best linguists you'll ever meet, so pick his brain!

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 06:45:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Learning English -- Request for Information (4.00 / 2)

Thanks! That would not be said about me even for my son.

When Procrustes looks after you, you're sure to fit in.

by PerCLupi on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 06:59:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Learning English -- Request for Information (none / 0)

O God, that means I have to be intelligent.

(A goal I often fail to achieve.)

Have epistemological model of Complex Information environments. Will Travel.

by ATinNM on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 07:18:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Learning English -- Request for Information (none / 1)

No, you just have to keep him entertained.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 2nd, 2008 at 05:21:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Learning English -- Request for Information (none / 1)

Please! I am delighted to say something meaningful in ET! I love thinking about the language! And I know very little about anything.

When Procrustes looks after you, you're sure to fit in.

by PerCLupi on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 06:50:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Learning English -- Request for Information (4.00 / 3)

I would be deeply grateful to be pointed to a paper discussing semantic differentials (Osgood) in terms of I-Language (Chomsky) or Pierce's Semiotics.

Why?

Our interest is computer-based Language processing. In our view, the essential failure of computer-based systems to achieve human-like language processing lies directly in the reliance of researchers upon organization and methodology of Set Theory and Statistical Mechanics - specifically in the use of a priori and static definitions and relations of text. We find support for our position in Complexity Theory (agent schemata,) the dynamic semiotics of Peirce, the semantic differential of Osgood, and findings in neuro-psychology and psycho-epistemology (Various.) Further support can be adduced from the work of Piaget particularly his concepts of Accommodation and Assimilation¹.

An ad-hoc (friend of a friend) short-term (a couple of weeks) experiment with autism (n=1, oh well) intimated our Model of Computer Language Acquisition and Use (three Proof-of-Concept prototypes) has some congruence with human language acquisition and use. What exactly the congruence is, IF there IS a congruence (n = 1 doesn't prove anything,) is research project that has been dropped due to lack of time and funds.

What is certain is a human using a computer anthromorphises the computer such that the closer the computer interface approaches human-like dialogue the more frustrated the user becomes at the computers inability to achieve true human-like dialogue. People would rather use an interface completely alien to human dialogue practices rather than a poor human-like interface. This can be seen by the limited market acceptance of Natural-Language based search engines (AskJeeves) versus the old keyword-and-statistics based search engines (Google.)

From all this we came to a rather depressing conclusion:

In order to be viable a computer Natural Language Interface needs to achieve human-competent language skills.

Which implies the computer must be able to remember the context and level(s) of previous human/computer interactions.

Further implying the computer must adjust its communicatory "style" in real time.

yurk

:-(

(LOL)

Thus the interest in how humans "do" it.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------
¹ Naturally, we ended-up knowing quite a bit about a little, something about most it, and not very much about the rest. We depend on the kindness of friends and strangers to let us know when we've gone off the rails and/or have started to babble.

Have epistemological model of Complex Information environments. Will Travel.

by ATinNM on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 08:39:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Learning English -- Request for Information (4.00 / 2)

That reminds me of the joke about the long-memory Indian by CrazyHorse in the joke thread...

Auferre, trucidare, rapere, falsis nominibus imperium; atque, ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Sun Jun 1st, 2008 at 08:48:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Learning English -- Request for Information (none / 1)

This reminded me of semantic holism.

Of all forms of caution, caution in love is perhaps the most fatal to true happiness - Bertrand Russell

by tiagoantao (put_my_login_here <> gmail com) on Mon Jun 2nd, 2008 at 07:05:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Learning English -- Request for Information (4.00 / 2)

I have problems to have information. I now live in the mountains near Madrid and here I do not have my library or instruments of consultation. In fact, what I say sometimes in ET is by heart. In addition, when my family and I moved to Madrid from Burgos, the transport truck I was losing my whole file (all the work of my doctoral thesis and many other things!). Moreover, I am not a specialist! But I'll try to make a list of bibliographical references on these matters, as far as I can be. I love it.

Some preliminary thoughts:

I am a maniac of the work methodology.
I do not accept the views of "authorities", which usually taken as immutable premises, without a harsh criticism, and I do not disregard any mention of having news until I know first-hand. As you've found, one receives many disappointments when you get long sought bibliography.
Any idea deeply thought:

a) As you know, the American positions "behaviorism-conductism" vs European "mentalism" became irreconcilable, as mortal enemies.
b) For a long time was thought that "the semantic aspect" could not be subject of linguistic scientific study.
c) I do not reject anything a priori.

For now, I may say:

Pierce is very important. We must take into account his "process of semiosis." But supplemented with other contributions. For example, the "Structural Semantic" by Greimas (a result of his thesis, headed by Eugenio Coseriu, whom I met a lot and who was very interested in the correct translation from German into Spanish in Gredos) obtained good results working with the distinction between "denotative function" and "significant role" of linguistic sign. This must be taken into account, but it is difficult for computerization.
The distinction between "I-language" and "E-language" of Chomsky is useful. Other things of his theory are not acceptable (for example, the 'innatism', certain basic concepts that are ancient (Greek, and even things overtaken by the school in Port Royale ...). His theory is recognized as a very useful tool for linguistic description precisely in connection with the study of artificial language (semantic and functional matrix [?]...)
Osgood (and his semantic differentials) is fundamentally psycologicist (logically) and exclusively behaviorist-conductist. And here there is an issue that can be very important in the work on artificial intelligence: It is considered the natural learning process (also with things of Piaget on evolutionary psychology ...) to apply to computerization, but what a computer can reach to acquire language as a human? Would it not be more useful to study the "structure of each language" as a particular organization of the world? In other words, we must study the linguistic structure -that is, of course, in the levels of "I-language" and "E-language" of linguo-speakers- instead of studying the process of human language acquisition, because it is a little conceivable that a "Robot" may become "process", but it can have "the result" of the process. I think this is very important.

In fact, modern studies focus on semantics considered from the point of view of the theory of knowledge, like Kant (which leads us to Pierce and neo-estructuralists).

But while the semantics is important (and most difficult, perhaps), there are other very important points, as the order of words, very important aspect between English and other languages, such as Romance languages, especially Spanish.

There is a problem also in teaching English as a foreign language: it has been studied much based only in English but little based in other languages. And many of automatic translation achievements have been transfer from English into other languages simply.

Well, I have a terrible toothache.

Sorry for my English.

When Procrustes looks after you, you're sure to fit in.

by PerCLupi on Mon Jun 2nd, 2008 at 07:24:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Learning English -- Request for Information (none / 1)

Apologies for this tardy - no access the site yesterday - and brief reply. I will try to type a longer response later tonight when I can sit down and have some time to digest the information.

The division between the different fields is useful for workers in those disciplines but not, so much, for someone working across disciplines. Taking an Outsider stance, one is able to Privilege findings from each discipline according to one's own purposes and goals.

And one's own preconceptions and prejudices :-D

Have epistemological model of Complex Information environments. Will Travel.

by ATinNM on Tue Jun 3rd, 2008 at 09:39:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Learning English -- Request for Information (4.00 / 2)

I do not know exactly what can be useful for you. There are some things which may be interesting:

*Aitchison, J. (1994): Words in the Mind: An Introduction to the Mental Lexicon. Oxford: Basil Blackwell (2nd ed.)
*Allan, Keith (2001). Natural Language Semantics. Oxford: Blackwell.
*Bennet, Paul (2002). An Introduction to Non-Lexical Aspects of Semantics. Muenchen: Lincom Europa.
*Cruse, David A. (1986). Lexical Semantics. Cambridge, CUP.
*Frawley, William (1992). Linguistic Semantics. Lawrence Erlbaum.
*Hoffman, Thomas R (2000). Realms of Meaning: Introduction to Semantics. London: Longman.
*Kearns, Kate (2000). Semantics. Basingstoke: MacMillan Press.
*Kreidler, Charles W. (1998). Introducing English Semantics. London: Routledge.
*Levinson, Stephen (1983). Pragmatics. Cambridge: CUP.
*Löbner, Sebastian (2002).