European Tribune

Friday Open Thread

by Colman
Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 10:38:37 AM EST

Any cheering news today?


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Err, it's intermittently sunny. It was supposed to be raining which is why I haven't cycled to the beer festival.

Now I don't know what I'll be doing.

Can anyone summarize where the EU goes from here now that Ireland has voted no ? As somebody said, you have to ask what they were thinking when they asked each country to ratify. You just knew somebody would refuse.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 10:41:50 AM EST
An international treaty has to be ratified by all the countries.

"Ne te courbe que pour aimer..." René Char
by Melanchthon on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 10:44:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Can anyone summarize where the EU goes from here now that Ireland has voted no

No. For all values of "anyone".
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 10:45:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
it remains neoliberal, as the alternative was "obviously" rejected.

And "reforms" will be pushed as necessary.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 11:03:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I didn't think Lisbon was significantly less "neoliberal". What specific articles of the Lisbon Treaty are you talking about?

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 01:05:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
what makes the EU less neoliberal is its progress as a political entity. This is not progress on that plane, quite the opposite.

So all you have is a machinery with no political legitimacy and no political vision: and what you get are "reforms", as per the default common wisdom. If you had an entity with political capital, you'd get more impetus for community-wide policy, politics and action. Instead, you get the concepts of Europe and multinational action (not neoliberalism) dismissed as anti-democratic.

I'm sure you're pleased with that result.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 04:44:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
that has defeated the treaty, twice.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 04:48:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You sound like a lefty blogger.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 04:55:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You sound like Democrats blaming Nader for Gore's inability to beat Bush which he should have been able to do with half his brain tied to his back. The yes camp in Ireland didn't try.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 05:02:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You cannot have an entity with political capital when everyone keeps electing political nonentities to run it.

15 years without a vision and counting...

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 04:51:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Are you more elitist than me? I'm miffed!

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 05:00:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I want Delors back, not Sarkozy.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 05:06:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You could watch footy.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 10:49:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh I'll do that anyway. Bugger all else to do. I'm not even sure I can be bothered to go out and get some beer in.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 10:51:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Quite a few possibilities in what might happen.

Can Italy remember how to play one last time before they all collectively retire ?

Can Romania really mess with everybody's heads by beating Italy ?

Will France do something radical, like looking threatening in the penalty area ?

Will Holland flatten France ?

Guesses ?
Italy 1 - 0 Romania
Holland 3 - 1 France

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 10:55:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
0-0 in both games.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 11:00:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I understand the grounds for such pessimism, 3 very lacklustre teams, but I remain hopeful. After all, who could have predicted the end result in Austria Poland, a game both sides played to lose.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 11:30:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Two goals in a minute, so it's Italy 1 - Romania 1.

Quite well matched, even if neither side is going to threaten to storm the championship.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 01:37:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Fantastic penalty save by the Italian goalie. Which made up for the scandalously disallowed goal Italy got in the first half.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 01:40:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Can anyone summarize where the EU goes from here now that Ireland has voted no ? As somebody said, you have to ask what they were thinking when they asked each country to ratify. You just knew somebody would refuse.

And it can't be the greatest sign when that somebody is Ireland.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 10:54:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well it doesn't help the Irish that their media is overly influenced by the UK, especially euro-skepticism. I have been stating for ages that an honest debate in the UK about the EU is impossible given our media, and that has been shockingly demonstrated in Ireland.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 10:58:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Why should that be surprising?  The British press -- even among the wacko winger papers -- has produced great coverage of the American election.  But for UK and Europe coverage, on its best days, it's just a small step above the American press, which is no better than the National Enquirer (and, in many cases, is actually worse).  And worse, the alternative-media infrastructure just isn't there in Britain the way it is in America, from what I can tell.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 11:42:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I was expecting euro-scpeticism and dishonesty, but even I have been disappointed by what I've seen.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 01:38:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Any cheering news today?

No

"Ne te courbe que pour aimer..." René Char

by Melanchthon on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 10:43:25 AM EST
Yes! The painter finally came today and now, finally, finally... my new studio is finished for work (we received new windows, it took almost 4 month for everything to be finished :-( ) and I am starting now by teaching a seminar this weekend, to which I am very much looking forward too. :-)

So I will not be around very much this weekend.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 11:17:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I hadn't heard and I thought you were all set long ago.  It's really surprising that basic stuff, like accommodating a structure, can be turtle-slow in the high-tech 21st century, isn't it?

Hope you are comfortable there for many decades.

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. --Charu Saxena.

by metavision on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 03:45:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I just realised that next week is empty, and the Midsummer Fest begins on Thursday. All I have to do is some minor revisions on a project and I'm freeeeeee. Famous Last Words.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 12:22:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Crazy Horse - I presume that the Summer Solstice is celebrated in some way by the Real Americans?

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 01:08:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Strangely, it's not a blanket celebration across the 500 Nations, it depends on the tribe.  For some there are simple things that are early summer holidays, like the time of first wild strawberries, or in Mohawk culture, the Green Corn festival.  In fact, many Nations don't mark it per se, rather there is an entire cycle of prayers and festivals taken together.

However, the medicine men marked the time directly, and used it for more private ceremonies, including the induction of the young into the mysteries.  That the solstice was measured is borne out by the various archeological artifacts remaining from stone circles to rock paintings.

The entire Anasazi map of villages was laid out according to the line of the sun at summer Solstice, discovered just a decade or so ago.

But every four years, the Solstice fell during the World Cup, so most Natives were busy rooting for Ecuador.  ;-)

Skennah Kowa

by Crazy Horse on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 02:40:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
500? Is there a genealogy of it?

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 02:50:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Tribal directory

...that doesn't answer your question ;-)

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 03:03:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No, I'm asking for a tree, not a list.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 03:41:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Are you sure it's a tree and not a forest? Though of course if you go back to the land crossing of the Bering Straits, then it is a tree. I am looking forward to the results of the global DNA survey that might inform about historical migrations.

Meanwhile this is fun: Adolf Hitler's belief in Aryan purity - the master race - has ben finally demonstrated to be ridiculous with news that Danish DNA is decidedly mongrel.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 05:43:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Interestingly, according to my wall calendar, the 21st is First Nations Day (Canada)...

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."
by poemless on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 03:38:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yah, the Canadian gubmint has had a historically better relationship with its Natives, at least in recent history.  Can't say for sure, but i don't think it has any "spiritual" significance, just a seemingly nice day to remember the people the land was taken from.  Also, the percentage of natives in Canada is much greater than in the US, for obvious reasons, Aayy.

Skennah Kowa
by Crazy Horse on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 04:00:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What, you mean they didn't take the "necessary" actions of slaughtering them like cattle?

FWIW, my great great grandmother was Cherokee.  I never knew her, but my mother did.  I'm quite removed from this lineage technically, but in fact I have never felt removed from it at all.  People have suggested this is pretentious, since I look white and have been made to live on a reservation, etc.  I suppose I am ignorant of the culture, but in truth, a lot more has been passed down from that corner of my family than from most of the European parts (except the Irish), so it is more natural for me to identify with it.  I take the genocide extremely personally and have been told I don't have the right to.  

A friend recently gave me "Death of the Archbishop" to read.  I could not get past the whole white man coming to civilize and save the mysterious savages bit to appreciate whatever it was about the book she expected me to appreciate.

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."

by poemless on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 04:19:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yikes.  should be:  

"have never been made to live on a reservation, etc."

"A friend recently gave me Death Comes for the Archbishop to read."


"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."

by poemless on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 04:46:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's Friday! The weekend is almost here to save to me.  I have not had a day off for nearly two weeks.

I have a trip to the Hawking Centre and sunday lunch with the neighbours lined up.  I'll give the darkroom a bash as well.

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 10:44:30 AM EST
Yeah, I think I'm just going to go and develop some film.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 10:46:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sometimes an item doesn't require more than a quote. Burying it in an open thread isn't a good solution.

Perhaps a quick quote or quick comment section on the front page for such short items might work. They might not even need to have replies enabled.

To show how this might work, my nomination for such an item for today:

In response to the Supreme Court ruling restoring habeas corpus to Guantanamo prisoners Scalia wrote:

"The game of bait-and-switch that today's opinion plays upon the Nation's Commander in Chief will make the war harder on us. It will almost certainly cause more Americans to be killed"
[my emphasis]

My reply:

"Reinstating the death penalty certainly caused more Americans to be killed"

Exactly what sort of Catholic education did Scalia get?

Policies not Politics
---- Daily Landscape

by rdf (robert.feinman@gmail.com) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 11:37:44 AM EST
Not that this should distract in any way from your larger point, but you could have posted that particular item here....
by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 11:42:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Perhaps, but my remark was really about Scalia's bloodthirsty personality and might be seen as a distraction from the main thread.

I can never understand how "turn the other cheek" squares with the avowed Catholic death lovers.

Policies not Politics
---- Daily Landscape

by rdf (robert.feinman@gmail.com) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 11:49:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There's nothing un-Catholic, as far as American Catholicism goes, about support for the death penalty.  The Catholic church in America is simply out of step with the Vatican, on principle, but then the Pope doesn't make a lot of noise about the death penalty either, even as he threatens to excommunicate politicians for supporting the right to choose.  Abortion trumps the death penalty and the war for them, so they can do what they did to John Kerry, and as they're doing now to people like Kathy Sebelius.

Scalia is an idiot.  Just another in a long line of Gipper-produced episodes of national psychosis.  The fact that people still take this church of corrupt child-molesters and neo-fascists seriously in this country is amazing to me.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 11:53:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I hope I remember right, that your birthday is the same day as ET's. Hope you are able to enjoy it and have fun. And all the best for the coming year, may it be fun and exciting. :-)
by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 11:55:15 AM EST
Happy Birthday, Stormy!

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 11:58:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Wszystkiego najlepszego 'sto lat, sto lat...'
by MarekNYC on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 12:12:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Celestial vibes in your direction ;-)

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 12:20:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Aw, thanks....
by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 01:08:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Happy birthday!

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 01:31:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yea, 400th'd. I'd suggest a beer to celebrate but egypt is a bit hard on that score.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 01:33:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yay! Happy birthday!

Ad astra per aspera
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 01:38:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yeah!! Happy Birthday!!

"You can't be a successful crook with a dishonest face, now, can you?" -The Fourth Doctor
by lychee (lychee9393 A yahoo D com) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 01:54:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Happy birthday :)
by Sassafras on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 02:13:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Happy Birthday!

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."
by poemless on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 03:37:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Happy Birthday from LEP :=)

I told Bush; don't play chess with the freakin' Russians.
by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 04:28:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Are you a typical Gemini, then?

<hides>

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 04:50:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Bon anniversaire, Tempêtueux présent !

I'm looking forward to meeting you...;-)

"Ne te courbe que pour aimer..." René Char

by Melanchthon on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 05:45:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Happy Renaissance, stormy!

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. --Charu Saxena.
by metavision on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 06:20:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Any cheering news today?

A-fucking-men

by MarekNYC on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 12:14:49 PM EST
What have men done to A to deserve that?

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 01:03:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I doubt the men are complaining...

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."
by poemless on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 01:05:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm not counting any chickens yet.
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 02:39:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
'Daydreaming' brain is coma clue

The Belgian team told a conference that activity within a "default network" in the brain appears to match the level of consciousness of the patient. Some believe the default network is associated with daydreaming. The findings were reported in New Scientist magazine.

 "We could just scan someone for 10 minutes and get an easily quantifiable readout. The default network in the brain's cortex appears to be more active when the brain is not actively working on a goal - hence the proposed link with daydreaming".




You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 12:19:21 PM EST
John Ensign, chair of the National Republican Senatorial Committee, made clear they were pulling out of the Senate races in Virginia and New Mexico.  So the GOP forfeits two, bringing us to:

52 Dem
48 Rep (calling Lieberman a Rep)

Committee resources go elsewhere, and Udall and Warner can push money over to other candidates.

Very stupid on the GOP's part, because that means money out of two key states Obama's looking to pick up.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 12:28:37 PM EST
...adding, Mig, that I see 10 seats where we have a good shot at winning (say, better than 50/50):

Alaska, Colorado, Kentucky, Maine, Minnesota, Mississippi, New Hampshire, New Mexico, Oregon, Virginia

Then there's the second tier:

North Carolina and Kansas

Lastly, the "landslide scenario" (the "Obama's going to beat McCain so badly that Republicans will commit mass suicide before they can vote" scenario):

Texas and Alabama

I think there are other contests that just haven't been polled, so I'll hold off on them.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 12:52:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Are those wins pickups or holds?

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 01:01:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Pickups.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 01:16:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Mississippi and Kentucky 'better than fifty percent' I'd call them very long shots. Slam dunk Virginia and New Mexico. Dems strongly favoured - Colorado and New Hampshire. Fifty-fifty Maine, Oregon, Minnesota.
by MarekNYC on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 01:16:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
We're ahead in both Mississippi and Kentucky right now.  I suspect, given the climate, that may well continue.  All we've got to do is keep it close in Mississippi.  The surge in black turnout, and the Obama campaign lending a hand with ground operations, will take care of the rest.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 01:22:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm not a fan of Electoral-Vote.com, but here's their map as of now, since Poblano doesn't have a House/Senate one to go along with the presidential:




Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 01:26:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
McCain has to hold Virginia, Ohio, and Missouri (44 Electoral College Votes) to win.  Acknowledging it's too early to be sure, with Obama ahead in national polling  coupled with the lack of passion in the GOP that's going to be a challenge.  

Och nu den svenska kocken bakar en Alaskan älg jägare. Bonk! Bonk! Bonk!
by ATinNM on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 01:49:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
ATinNM, your attempt at black humor last week regarding the "pioneering spirit" which "pounded the Native American's red flesh back into the sand from whence it sprang" was completely lost on me, and i still find your comment racist at worst, and dumb and blind at best.

You never answered what i wrote in response, so the time comes, what have you to say for yourself?

Skennah Kowa

by Crazy Horse on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 02:27:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I didn't want to go there but since you demand an answer ...

<rant>

I speak two Native American languages.

I have relatives who are Native American.  

The Sun Dagger at Chaco Canyon has been destroyed by persons (= assholes) unknown for reasons unknown.

Fox Cave in Lincoln County was a religious site going back thousands of years.  As quickly as possible the artifacts were looted, religious continuity destroyed, the site fenced and made Off-Limits.

Celebrations essential to Apache, Navaho, and Pueblo cultures have been turned into cheap tourist entertainment, destroying the community-binding and affirmation affect.

People I knew and respected have died of the affects of drug addiction, itself brought about by despair, alienation, and anger.

The Na-Dine Nation of the 4 Corners area are still dying from the effects of mining because of fucking Peabody Coal not being held to minimum environmental safety regulations.

The Hopi Nation lost a huge chunk of land over a manufactured conflict with the Navaho Nation with the effort directed by fuckwad Senator Corrupt McCain -- the GOP Presidential nominee.

I could fill a multi-volume book with personal, current, and historic examples of physical and cultural genocide.

Hell, I could fill an encyclopedia.

</rant>

Och nu den svenska kocken bakar en Alaskan älg jägare. Bonk! Bonk! Bonk!

by ATinNM on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 03:59:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
N'yahweh ATinNM.
All well and good about your understanding (i fully respect you can speak two languages, to whatever degree).
But can you please address what you wrote, here in the net environment?  If it was an attempt at dark humor, it sounded to me like i hear in bars from Gallup to Rapid City.

I think an apology is appropriate, even it if comes with an explanation of where you're coming from.  i never thought you were anything but understanding, and experienced, about native issues.

But that "joke" was over the top, and here you didn't acknowledge that.

If you're so aware of native culture, then you should also have known that in making the comment on the weather in Washington, you're dealing with a native trigger point, the Washington Redskins. (For europeans, it's the same as if they were called the Washington Niggers, or the Washington Kikes.)  In that context, you were totally insensitive, especially if you've spent your life within native circles.

Skennah Kowa

by Crazy Horse on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 04:18:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I took it precisely as an exemple of evil excess, as it was written. I think you're mistaking original ATinNM's intent.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 04:46:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
J, it doesn't read like that to one on the receiving end.

I wrote at the very beginining that i knew it was a joke attempt, but viewed from inside native circles, it's exactly an example of how even good people have the infection inside.

It doesn't matter to me that ATinNM is a good person with a strong background in native issues.  It just matters to me that when the butt of the joke cries foul, everyone else says just let it go, when i don't want to let it go until the writer realizes the effect on those about whom he was joking.  Period.

And i find it bullshit not to understand, that no matter what you think, you have to give some credence to the views of the injured party, even if you dont' agree.  Then you might find a deeper understanding about what it means to be life long the butt of prejudice.

So hear me, i stand with people who have lost relatives to the europeans since over 500 years.  With people whose cultures were nearly destroyed, with cultural losses that can never be recovered even if the people survive.  When someone makes a "joke" about it, i take it personally, and will continue despite what you all say.

If he really knew native culture, he would have known just to say sorry, with which he would have been inducted into the "bad joke society" that every nation has.

Skennah Kowa

by Crazy Horse on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 05:25:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
he used it specifically as an exemple of an evil joke. The criticism of the content of these words was pretty explicit in what in wrote.

I do understand that the joke itself is hurtful. But he did not use the joke, he commented on it.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 05:56:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
CH is very precise and third parties won´t help, I think.

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. --Charu Saxena.
by metavision on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 06:17:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Jérôme, I think we are all being inconsistent here. Crazy Horse was offended by what was written, as he stated in a way that cannot be misconstrued. I also accept, as I said at the time, that we all make mistakes in pitching humour and snark sometimes.

I regard both Crazy Horse and ATinNM as my friends. I hope that they can make up with the necessary yielding on both sides.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 05:33:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
of all people, are not allowed to go consistent on me!

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 05:53:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Touché. And belated congratulations on successfully rustling wild chickens on the open range of ideas for a full 3 years.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 05:59:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This is exactly why I didn't want to go here.

You don't get it dude.

My NA family talks about that stuff in the same way. Are you so oblivious to southwestern NA culture that you don't know about Coyote : the Double-Tongued While Truth-Telling Jokester?  Take the word "sardonic" and raise it a couple of orders of magnitude while contemplating the English phrases "Bitter Truth" and "The Truth Hurts" with an undercurrent of "Deal With It."  

Ref: that obnoxious football team name, tell me by what family or other Right you use the name "Crazy Horse" and I'll answer.

Och nu den svenska kocken bakar en Alaskan älg jägare. Bonk! Bonk! Bonk!

by ATinNM on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 05:58:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
[ET Moderation Technology™] Time out.

And to Jerome and Sven: as Europeans we just don't get it so we should butt out of this thread.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 06:07:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks Mig. this had no good place to go.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 06:11:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Agreed. I didn't realise the depth.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 06:18:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No such thing, is there?

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 06:19:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
A white dude who thinks he can moderate a debate between AT and CH on nativeness.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 06:23:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hey, not fair.  I'm a white dude who can moderate it silently based on sheer ignorance, and I'm not a European.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 10:49:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You're whitey on the moon.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Jun 14th, 2008 at 03:35:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Coyote was smart enough to know the difference between a family potlach and a public forum.  But he always knew how to get to the crux of the matter, so it must have been Coyote up to the normal mischief who made you say:

"You don't get it dude."

So now that you're twisting in Coyote's wind, what kind of human response is your slam, youdon'tgetitdude?

Obviously, i don't get jokes about pounding red flesh, just the kind of jokes that make for a good native family gathering.

My anger is about how you present native culture in a public forum, not about how we joke in private. You can't see the difference, and aren't warrior enough to agree and take lesson.

And the internet sobriquet Crazy Horse, what right?, well, that came from a sweat lodge ceremony, where the Lakota shaman told me "you are the bridge," and the family said "What the hell, run with it." Or was that the ancient rocks talking?  Would you rather ask about how i can also use the Mohawk name of Hiawatha's family as well, after a nine day ceremony?

Or wouldn't it be simpler just to say, sorry, the jokes i make with my family don't parse so good on the dry international internet, and be done with it?

i got no pride, prove me wrong and i'm yours... but don't you think, you should ditch the rhetoric, step back, and take a look at what you wrote?

(Aside for ET'ers here, native culture is actually a completely different set of values.  Pay attention: It is not easy to understand the culture either from a distance, or from even the desire to understand more deeply.  One of the great jokes in native culture for the past several hundred years was, how can we con the anthros.  It was a source of pride to many how far they could lead the sometimes well-meaning anthropologists into believing they had "discovered" some new understanding.  For example, ceremonies were described, which became legion in anthropological literature, which actually had never existed, except as a joke on the conquerors.)

So then, O Coyote Understander, what is it exactly that i should get?  Or you should get?  That making an "evil excess" joke about pounding red flesh back into the sand from which it came is cool, 'cuz coyote says its a good dark joke?

Skennah Kowa

by Crazy Horse on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 08:50:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ref: "Crazy Horse"  -- don't know much about Lakota culture so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and accept that the naming was appropriate.   (FYI, in In-Dine and Inde cultures the use of a Family Name by someone outside the Family is, for a variety of reasons, isn't done.)  

I'm not going to apologize for Speaking Truth.  Truth you acknowledge.  Truth that, if accepted, would pretty much end the current situation -- of which the DC football team's name is a symptom.  

As far as I can determine your objection is to the way I said it and that I put it in a public forum.

To the first, that's my culture.    

To the second, how the hell can Public Opinion be challenged and then changed without Public Discussion?

Maybe you think saying one thing in private and something else in public is "being a warrior."  I don't.  I call it being a mealy-mouthed coward.  We've sugar-coated the Truth for centuries:  we've been exterminated when we've resisted, been shunted aside when we've acquiesced, had our land and Holy Places stolen, our women raped, our children killed, our cultures destroyed, treaties broken, leaders lied to, jailed, and murdered.  On and off the res we are slowly dying from poverty, disease, and despair and all the affects and effects those cause.

Until we stand up for ourselves things won't change.

And part of standing up is telling the Truth as clearly as possible so even the dumbest panda-lick-a-yeh can start to see it.  Until we smack the shit out of them with the Truth they, and we, will continue on the Trail of Death.  

Och nu den svenska kocken bakar en Alaskan älg jägare. Bonk! Bonk! Bonk!

by ATinNM on Sat Jun 14th, 2008 at 03:15:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's a tall order, particularly with the polling currently showing Obama ahead in all three.  I don't know why E-V.com has it a tie in VA, because the last reputable poll had Obama up 7, which is wider than Missouri, where he was only up 2.  Ohio looked pretty strong in the last SUSA poll (+9, I think).  And if those three show the same five-point bump after the primaries that other states have shown, he'll be in good shape.

If McCain loses one of those three, given how other states are likely to fall, it's probably over.

What I think the Kossack crowd is betting on in their hopes for a landslide is the electorate breaking strongly to Obama once we get to the autumn and the key voters start paying attention to the issues.  McCain being stuck in the low-40s -- and now mid- to high-30s in some states originally thought to be "swing states" (Washington, Minnesota, Oregon, Wisconsin, etc) --  bodes well.

We'll see.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 10:42:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So we're getting Wellstone's seat back? Who's the Dem?

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 01:34:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Al Franken, who's fine but no Paul Wellstone.
by MarekNYC on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 01:47:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Wait a bit--he may surprise you.

Useful talking follows experience, the more experience the better. Talking that precedes experience is known as bullshit.
by geezer in Paris (risico at wanadoo(flypoop)fr) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 02:34:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
He's run a weak campaign so far.  Franken winning will be a result of Obama's popularity there more than likely.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 03:09:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yuk!  Franken's another AIPAC sell-out-for-logic and I never liked his humor.  The current, wishy-washy, mediocrity type, trying to cover both sides of the fence, is really depressing.

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. --Charu Saxena.
by metavision on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 04:10:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
These final words calling for a vote on the Senate floor have been uttered by the presiding officer, from a chair that oversees the entire Senate chamber.  If someone were watching the proceedings on C-SPAN or from the small visitors' gallery above the chamber, they would see a puzzlingly empty spectacle.  In most cases, only a few senators are on the floor, having spoken while standing behind one of a hundred desks that form a semicircle in front of the elevated platform where the stiff, seemingly bored presiding officer sits behind a parliamentarian, two legislative clerks, and a journal clerk.  With that, those observing might be forgiven for thinking that the debate they have just witnessed was nothing more than kabuki, a pantomime of stilted, false formality played out to deaf ears, as unheard and unremarkable as a tree falling in an empty forest.

But in almost every Senate office, indeed at almost every desk, the television sets and computer monitors are on, having followed the floor statements that precede the vote.  And much more has been done, well before the speeches began.  Committee hearings have been held.  Memos have been written.  Recommendations have been drafted.  Discussions and internal debates have taken place.  All that remains is for the individual senator to decide which way he or she will vote.  And within fifteen or twenty minutes, depending on the rule attached to the legislation, that vote must be cast personally, a yea or nay offered to the roll clerk sitting just below the presiding officer.

Some votes are easy, either because they are perfunctory, such as judicial and military nominations that have been extensively scrubbed by trusted committee chairmen, or because they are procedural, calling upon a senator's loyalty to the party leadership, or because the philosophical arguments are clear.  Some votes are enormously difficult.  Many involve great stakes for the nation on issues that are far more complex than the inconclusive legislative answers that are being offered, a dilemma that many senators identify as "letting the perfect be the enemy of the good."  Others involve deliberate traps by clever members of the opposing side, meaningless in their true impact because of procedural gimmickry but designed to soil the voting record of senators up for reelection and to provide fresh fodder for the bombast of the talk-show crowd.  Casting such "gotcha" votes, one cannot help but think of Rudyard Kipling's knowing lament in the classic poem "If":  "If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken / Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools ..."

Jim Webb, A Time To Fight

The third, fourth, and fifth paragraphs of chapter one.

Pictures and reminders fill my office.  Samuel Cochran, B. H. Hodges, my parents, my wife, my brother and sisters, my fellow Marines from a time of brutal combat in Vietnam, my five children and one stepdaughter; those who went before me, those who were young with me and grew older by my side, and those who will be here long after I am gone.  They look over my shoulder as I work.  They give me balance, and a sense of accountability.  I owe those who went before me the knd of country they fought to create and wanted to perfect.  I owe those who served alongside me the kind of country we tried to protect.  And I owe my children the kind of country they want to see preserved and further greatened.

Two pages later.  Damn I wish I could write like that.

Somewhere in cyberspace, the ghost of de Chardin is smiling.

by budr on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 12:28:53 PM EST
<Stevie Wonder's 'Superstition' playing in the background>

The insurance companies say that there are fewer accidents on non-13th Fridays, than on Friday the Thirteenths. One reading of that data could be that lots of people are being especially careful. Wonder why.

In Helsinki though it was calamity time: there was a nasty fire in the Ministry that backs onto the Presidential Palace, and a little while later, two trams collided - not a shunt, as you might imagine, but a broadside as two sets of rails intersected. 17 hurt. And still further, Calamity Matti, the PM, had to address the recent party donations scandal at the Center Party conference in Joensuu (East by the border with Russia).

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 01:04:01 PM EST
Sorry, it WAS a shunt according to latest report.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 01:13:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Cheering news?

Well, yes- George Bush may come out of his Catholic closet once the November lottery results are in. He was so chummy with Ratzinger that voices have it he's gone Cathy just like his Iraq War cohort Blair.

And the mobster Berlusconi is thumping for McCain-- all the more a good reason to side with Obama. The utterly servile ass-licking by Berlusconi will have its consequences: Italian military deaths in Iraq and Afghanistan upcoming. So macho.

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 01:04:03 PM EST
Guess what? When I was cycling home, I cycled past none other than our Environment Minister on her way home.  By herself, using the cycle paths, and without an entourage of gas guzzling cars following her. Wales rocks.

Ad astra per aspera
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 01:19:08 PM EST
Excellent. Clement Attlee used to get the bus when he was Prime Minister.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 01:32:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's awesome.

I was walking home a few weeks ago and saw the head of our public transportation system come out of a club and ... get in car.  Spoke volumes.

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."

by poemless on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 04:39:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Proud of our boys!

What kind of nonsense is this: football is war - or, war is a game...


The struggle of man against tyranny is the struggle of memory against forgetting.(Kundera)

by Elco B (elcob at scarlet dot be) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 01:36:15 PM EST
Isn't it sad where once I could immediately identify the style of 50 odd guitar players. Now they all sound like Yngwe Malmsteen.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 03:55:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
21.08 and the sun is still hitting my windows - the solstice approaches...

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 02:08:33 PM EST
Uhm, I think you have another week to go...  

It's Friday the 13th!  Boo!

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."

by poemless on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 02:26:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Strangely, I usually have uncommonly good luck on Friday 13th...

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."
by poemless on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 02:27:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I am well aware of its actual Finnish celebration, which may or may not coincide with celestial events.

 It is now 21.31 and the sun still bathes the upper parts of the trees in my garden with light.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 02:31:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, this little guy

seems quite happy with life.

The ducklings at my son's school, three weeks on.  All fourteen are thriving.


by Sassafras on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 02:11:27 PM EST


You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 02:32:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Go ducks!  Hope they teach us all.

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. --Charu Saxena.
by metavision on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 04:21:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
They are lovely, your son's school is really lucky to have this.

On a sadder note, I was waiting outside Waitrose supermarket this morning and there was a mallard and duck who were begging. The duck had a badly injured foot and couldn't take off and they were obviously hungry and thirsty. I was so pleased the mallard was staying with her but i couldn't help. We alerted the supermarket staff and tried to persuade them to help but I haven no idea if anything was done.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 05:06:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The RSPCA won't come out to wild animals, but if you catch them and take them to a vet, they'll pick up the bill.

I hope somebody did.

by Sassafras on Fri Jun 13th, 2008 at 05:18:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I had no idea about that.  It is really awful when you see wild animals obviously needing some help.

Ad astra per aspera
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Sat Jun 14th, 2008 at 02:57:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I didn't know it either.  It's the summary of the answerphone messages I listened to last November while trying to figure out what the hell to do with an injured owl at 11pm on a Saturday night.

The answer, in case you're wondering, is the airing cupboard.  If it lives, there are places it can go the following day.

And this one did live  :)

by Sassafras on Sat Jun 14th, 2008 at 03:57:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
:)

Ad astra per aspera
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Sat Jun 14th, 2008 at 04:09:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hilozy, at Obsidian Wings, (via Brad Delong) writes, quoting the recent "Boumediene" supreme court decision:

   

"The Government's view is that the Constitution had no effect there, at least as to noncitizens, because the United States disclaimed sovereignty in the formal sense of the term. The necessary implication of the argument is that by surrendering formal sovereignty over any unincorporated territory to a third party, while at the same time entering into a lease that grants total control over the territory back to the United States, it would be possible for the political branches to govern without legal constraint.

    Our basic charter cannot be contracted away like this. The Constitution grants Congress and the President the power to acquire, dispose of, and govern territory, not the power to decide when and where its terms apply. Even when the United States acts outside its borders, its powers are not "absolute and unlimited" but are subject "to such restrictions as are expressed in the Constitution." Murphy v. Ramsey, 114 U. S. 15, 44 (1885). Abstaining from questions involving formal sovereignty and territorial governance is one thing. To hold the political branches have the power to switch the Constitu