European Tribune

Who is really served by the Irish "no?"

by euamerican
Sat Jun 14th, 2008 at 09:12:46 AM EST

The first concern is that this could develop into the "Empty Chair" crisis of the 1960's, which stymied European integration for a decade.

The second concern is that "democracy" is being narrowly defined to mean "referendums" and that national parliaments that voted on and ratified the Treaty is "undemocratic." The word "democracy" is a sacred cow where any discussion of "democracy" that is not in favor of "referendums" makes one the equal of Hitler or the Soviet Union.

The public should not be voting on European treaties, and this episode just demonstrates how right the French and Dutch were in changing their ratification process. As we well know, European treaties are often a couple of hundred pages long and are intended to amend the treaties before it. Most in the European public are apathetic to the operation and purpose of European integration and the Union. This means that the Irish electorate has to rely on media coverage, which we know is often skewed in an anti-Europe direction.


[editor's note, by Migeru] fold inserted here

A final concern is who this kind of embarrassment most likely serves and it is not in the best interest of the European project and European aspirations, but for Washington. This game plan of demanding "referendums" on the Lisbon Treaty, especially in Britain, is being actively promoted by the neo-cons of the Heritage Foundation and the Thatchrites of the Thatcher Center for Freedom. These people find the Lisbon Treaty a BIG TIME threat to the NATO-American order in Europe, the "special relationship" between the US and UK, and a threat to American dominance of the international order. As a student of American foreign policy, I can tell you that America wants NO rivals at the top of the international order - and the Lisbon Treaty is seen as providing Europe the tools to do just that.

This attempt to destroy the Lisbon Treaty by the neo-cons through "referendums" is following a well crafted course. Below are a few links that you must read. You will see that I am on the right path on this issue of the Lisbon Treaty. Europe must wake up and realize that America will not tolerate an independent-from-NATO Europe acting on its own without Washington's approval. Voting "no" to the Lisbon Treaty is like voting "yes" to the continuance of the Cold War order of an American-NATO domination of Europe and the international system.

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The first concern is that this could develop into the "Empty Chair" crisis of the 1960's, which stymied European integration for a decade.
This was before my time, can you explain?

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Jun 14th, 2008 at 09:22:13 AM EST
De Gaulle pulled his ministers from the Council in 1965 after disagreeing with the Commission and the other Member States about powers given to the European Parliamentary Assembly to approve the budget. The stand-off resulted in rather less power for the Commission.
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Sat Jun 14th, 2008 at 12:50:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This attempt to destroy the Lisbon Treaty by the neo-cons through "referendums" is following a well crafted course.
I am tempted to call the campaign led by the LIBERTAS think tank "the shamrock revolution".

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Jun 14th, 2008 at 09:26:59 AM EST
Terrible thing to smear the shamrock with this ... just leave it at sham

Utsukushikereba sore de ii
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sat Jun 14th, 2008 at 09:09:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
[ET Moderation Technology™]

Fold inserted, lazy linking corrected.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Jun 14th, 2008 at 09:30:29 AM EST
And some typos.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Jun 14th, 2008 at 09:51:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Voting "no" to the Lisbon Treaty is like voting "yes" to the continuance of the Cold War order of an American-NATO domination of Europe and the international system.
What do you say to those who voted no to "protect Irish neutrality"?

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Jun 14th, 2008 at 09:36:41 AM EST
The big Irony here is that Sinn Fein - which as only recently abandoned armed struggle and shed its paramilitary basis - is campaigning to ensure Ireland doesn't get involved in military entanglements, and the effect of this campaign is to reinforce the US/Nato domination of the world order - something Sinn Fein is explicitly against.  Is this the deal it made to gain US support for the peace process?

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Sat Jun 14th, 2008 at 01:10:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Is it either/or? Can you say you don't want NATO or an EU with a military arm?

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Jun 14th, 2008 at 01:19:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You can, but it's a bit rich coming from Sinn Fein which has only 10 years of experience of abandoning the "armalite in one hand, and ballot paper in the other"  strategy.

Don't get me wrong - I'm all for them being great champions for neutrality, peace, human rights etc. - and the further they distance themselves from their past, the better.  But do I want to be governed by them?

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Sat Jun 14th, 2008 at 01:53:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
100 % of the Swedish left would say just that...

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Sat Jun 14th, 2008 at 06:35:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Quite possibly, no.

You might be able to say that you don't want either NATO or an EU military arm that is free to operate beyond EU borders.

But then does EU shipping rely on the US Navy for protection in event of a regional power threatening shipping lanes?

The pre-Civil War US model might be one to recall here ... if the US is adopting the pre-unification Prussian model it would only be fair to return the favor and consider adopting a military system suited to a free republic. No standing federal army, with the federal army to be composed primarily of state level troops in the event of a crisis ... and a federal navy, with a primary focus on the protection of shipping lanes.

Don't adopt the part about wandering around in a hinterland claimed as territory, taking it from the indigenous inhabitants, though ... that kind of thing leads to nothing but trouble in the end.


Utsukushikereba sore de ii

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sat Jun 14th, 2008 at 09:16:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
if the US is adopting the pre-unification Prussian model it would only be fair to return the favor and consider adopting a military system suited to a free republic. No standing federal army, with the federal army to be composed primarily of state level troops in the event of a crisis ... and a federal navy, with a primary focus on the protection of shipping lanes.

That's what's being done: the no campaign's claims about a "standing army" are bogus.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jun 15th, 2008 at 01:25:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Kewl, I can't wait to have a chance to tour an EU navy ship.

Oh, you mean the other part ... is that actual being done, or is it just be default?


Utsukushikereba sore de ii

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sun Jun 15th, 2008 at 10:51:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, "being done" means "written into the Lisbon Treaty".

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jun 15th, 2008 at 04:18:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"yes, that is being done, no, that is not being done".

That is, the Lisbon Treaty is no standing federal armed forces whatsoever, so the army like post-Revolution US, the Navy not.


Utsukushikereba sore de ii

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sun Jun 15th, 2008 at 04:24:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Specifically:
Consolidated version of the Treaty on European Union

Article 42

2. ...

The policy of the Union in accordance with this Section shall not prejudice the specific character of the security and defence policy of certain Member States and shall respect the obligations of certain Member States, which see their common defence realised in the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation (NATO), under the North Atlantic Treaty and be compatible with the common security and defence policy established within that framework.

3. Member States shall make civilian and military capabilities available to the Union for the implementation of the common security and defence policy, to contribute to the objectives defined by the Council. Those Member States which together establish multinational forces may also make them available to the common security and defence policy.

...

  1. Decisions relating to the common security and defence policy, including those initiating a mission as referred to in this Ar ticle, shall be adopted by the Council acting unanimously on a proposal from the High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy or an initiative from a Member State. The High Representative may propose the use of both national resources and Union instruments, together with the Commission where appropriate.

  2. Those Member States whose military capabilities fulfil higher criteria and which have made more binding commitments to one another in this area with a view to the most demanding missions shall establish permanent structured cooperation within the Union framework. Such cooperation shall be governed by Article 46. It shall not affect the provisions of Ar ticle 43.

  3. If a Member State is the victim of armed aggression on its territory, the other Member States shall have towards it an obligation of aid and assistance by all the means in their power, in accordance with Article 51 of the United Nations Charter. This shall not prejudice the specific character of the security and defence policy of certain Member States. Commitments and cooperation in this area shall be consistent with commitments under the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation, which, for those States which are members of it, remains the foundation of their collective defence and the forum for its implementation.
I would like to know how paragraph 7 interacts with Article 5 of the NATO Charter and with the Hague Invasion Act.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jun 15th, 2008 at 04:41:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I have no idea how Article 5 and the Hague Invasion Act are worded ... I in fact had no idea how the Lisbon Treaty was worded, I just read the FAQ that said:
Will the Treaty create a European army?

No. Military capabilities remain in national hands. The Treaty foresees that Member States can make available civilian and military resources to the Union for the implementation of its Common Security and Defence operations. However, any Member State has the right to oppose such operations and all contributions to them will be always on a voluntary basis.

A group of Member States who are willing and have the necessary capability will be able to undertake disarmament operations, humanitarian and rescue tasks, military advice and peace-keeping tasks. No Member State can be forced to participate in such operations.




Utsukushikereba sore de ii
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sun Jun 15th, 2008 at 07:17:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, that's easily solved.

NATO Official Text: The North Atlantic Treaty

Article 5

The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.

Any such armed attack and all measures taken as a result thereof shall immediately be reported to the Security Council. Such measures shall be terminated when the Security Council has taken the measures necessary to restore and maintain international peace and security.

US State Department: American Service-Members' Protection Act.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 16th, 2008 at 07:12:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I dunno, it doesn't look like there's any conflict ... just the US and Canada are only obligated to come to the defense of the NATO members, non-NATO members of the EU would only obligated to come to the defense of EU members, and members of both NATO and the EU are / would be obligated to come to the defense of both.

Like a free trade agreement versus a customs union ... free trade agreements can overlap, customs unions cannot.


Utsukushikereba sore de ii

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Mon Jun 16th, 2008 at 10:26:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, we could trust Europeans with weapons and armies before Americans, judging by the recent past...
by euamerican on Mon Jun 16th, 2008 at 07:54:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If the Irish are "neutral," then why did they jump though all the hoops they had to in order to become an EU Member State?
At least Norway never joined ...
by euamerican on Mon Jun 16th, 2008 at 07:46:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Norway was a NATO country last time I checked.

- Jake

Ceterum censeo Chicago esse delendam

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Jun 16th, 2008 at 07:55:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ireland joined in 1973 because it was an economic appendage of the UK. It had no choice but to be in the same free-trade area as the UK (first the EFTA, then the EU).

Ireland is not part of Schengen because of the open border arrangements with the UK.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 16th, 2008 at 07:59:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Also because the EU never had a defence component until Lisbon, and only got the beginnings of a foreign and security policy 15 years ago.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 16th, 2008 at 08:02:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This game plan of demanding "referendums" on the Lisbon Treaty, especially in Britain, is being actively promoted by the neo-cons of the Heritage Foundation and the Thatchrites of the Thatcher Center for Freedom. These people find the Lisbon Treaty a BIG TIME threat to the NATO-American order in Europe, the "special relationship" between the US and UK, and a threat to American dominance of the international order.
These people are out to lunch. Look at the PROTOCOL (No 10)  ON PERMANENT STRUCTURED COOPERATION  ESTABLISHED BY ARTICLE 42 OF THE TREATY ON  EUROPEAN UNION
...

RECALLING that the common security and defence policy of the Union respects the obligations under the Nor th Atlantic Treaty of those Member States which see their common defence realised in the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation, which remains the foundation of the collective defence of its members, and is compatible with the common security and defence policy established within that framework,

CONVINCED that a more assertive Union role in security and defence matters will contribute to the vitality of a renewed Atlantic Alliance, in accordance with the Berlin Plus arrangements,

...




When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Jun 14th, 2008 at 01:42:31 PM EST
Given the low regard in which Heritage Foundation Types likely hold the US Constitution, especially when it is an obstacle to their agendas, they probably consider those provisions of Article 42 of the Treaty to be "mere words."  They would rather insure that there is no unified entity and therefore no possibility of the EU treating their foundation documents in such cavalier fashion as they have treated the U.S. Constitution.

If sanity be culturally normative, then by the norms of this culture I claim insanity.
by ARGeezer (argeezer a in a circle yahoo dot com) on Sat Jun 14th, 2008 at 03:32:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The neo-cons and Thatcherites don't come out and say this, but I could only read and write what they wrote.
I also get the feeling that they actually despise Europe's welfare states and human rights - with human rights a prominent feature of the Lisbon Treaty...

American foreign policy is about "looking out for rival competitors" no matter where they arise from. It's fine for this ilk to demand that Europe "to spend more on defense" and never mind what the Member States actually want for their own defense and security. There is the mentality that whatever a EU and NATO member does for defense, it should serve NATO and American first...

Check out this video on French ambitions and the response of America's ambassador to NATO:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQ-F2At9-Is

We chould cheer on French ambitions!

by euamerican on Mon Jun 16th, 2008 at 08:08:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]


When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 16th, 2008 at 08:10:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"Spend more on defense", you say?
CONSOLIDATED VERSION OF THE TREATY ON EUROPEAN UNION [Lisbon]

Article 42

3. ...

Member States shall undertake progressively to improve their military  capabilities. The Agency in the field of defence capabilities development,  research, acquisition and armaments (hereinafter referred to as `the European Defence Agency') shall identify operational requirements, shall promote measures to satisfy those requirements, shall contribute to identifying and, where  appropriate, implementing any measure needed to strengthen the industrial and  technological base of the defence sector, shall participate in defining a European capabilities and armaments policy, and shall assist the Council in evaluating the improvement of military capabilities.

Article 45

1. The European Defence Agency referred to in Article 42(3), subject to the authority of the Council, shall have as its task to:
(a) contribute to identifying the Member States' military capability objectives and evaluating observance of the capability commitments given by the Member States;
(b) promote harmonisation of operational needs and adoption of effective, compatible procurement methods;
(c) propose multilateral projects to fulfil the objectives in terms of military capabilities, ensure coordination of the programmes implemented by the Member States and management of specific cooperation programmes;
(d) support defence technology research, and coordinate and plan joint research activities and the study of technical solutions meeting future operational needs;
(e) contribute to identifying and, if necessary, implementing any useful measure for strengthening the industrial and technological base of the defence sector and for improving the effectiveness of military expenditure.

2. The European Defence Agency shall be open to all Member States wishing to be part of it. The Council, acting by a qualified majority, shall adopt a decision defining the Agency's statute, seat and operational rules. That decision should take account of the level of effective participation in the Agency's activities. Specific groups shall be set up within the Agency bringing together Member States engaged in joint projects. The Agency shall carry out its tasks in liaison with the Commission where necessary.



When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 16th, 2008 at 08:14:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The public should not be voting on European treaties, and this episode just demonstrates how right the French and Dutch were in changing their ratification process. As we well know, European treaties are often a couple of hundred pages long and are intended to amend the treaties before it. Most in the European public are apathetic to the operation and purpose of European integration and the Union. This means that the Irish electorate has to rely on media coverage, which we know is often skewed in an anti-Europe direction.

The thing is, European "treaties" are establishing much more than your standard treaty institution - the European Union is being established as a superstate. With legislative, executive and judiciary branches, that indeed supersede most legislative activities in local parliaments, and becomes court of last resort over any court decision.

Such an important body needs legitimacy and approval from citizens ; without being asked for it, many will feel manipulated and dictated too, normal sentiments played upon by national media and unscrupulous politicians. Strong constitutional changes need popular approval.

Democratic institutions needs at some points to appeal to popular approval, at least to found their legitimacy. That's why Europe will need an EU-wide popular assent, or states will continue to undermine it, like for example Sarkozy regularly does.  A body of treaties that has been repeatedly refused needs to be changed - a message the governments don't want to hear.

The approval needs not be a referendum ; but an European Parliament elected with constitutional powers as an major campaigning point could have that legitimacies. Governments, which are still systematically elected on national platforms, with EU policies an afterthought, don't have that legitimacy.

Auferre, trucidare, rapere, falsis nominibus imperium; atque, ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Sat Jun 14th, 2008 at 06:54:06 PM EST
Do we really want globalization in it's current Satanic form?  Really, could you imagine the formation of a global government seized by someone like Bush?
They are trying to make a North American Union here in total secrecy.
by Lasthorseman (Lasthorseman@comcast.net) on Mon Jun 16th, 2008 at 06:24:40 PM EST


When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 16th, 2008 at 06:29:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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