European Tribune

A note on Ireland and the EU

by Colman
Tue Jun 17th, 2008 at 04:10:42 AM EST

I seem to be seeing a lot of ideas - both here and in the media - about going forward with the EU project that assume that the Lisbon Treaty rejection in Ireland either somehow invalidates our approval of the Nice treaty, or indicates that Ireland has become Eurosceptic.

Both of these views are, as best as I can tell, total nonsense.

The Nice treaty and its provisions were passed by the Irish people in referendum and I see no special reason to expect that we would not want to be part of most enhanced co-operation groups under those mechanisms. I suppose it's possible that some other countries might like for us to be excluded as punishment for doing the same thing that France did, but that's another matter.

The Lisbon Treaty did not fail due to Euroscepticism: almost every No campaign emphasised that this was a bad deal for the EU as a whole, that we were bound to vote no on the grounds that no-one else was getting a vote, and that a better deal was available both for Ireland and for the EU.

Do not listen to your media masters: Ireland has not become a bastion of anti-EU sentiment.


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Incidentially, I quite like this idea: make Sinn Fein responsible for re-negotiation.


I say this for two reasons. One is that Sinn Féin, unlike the other major No factions, is a national political party. This is not true of, for example Libertas, whose prominence in the No campaign was purely a function of money. (It is ironic that Libertas, the least transparent and accountable body ever to have played a major role in Irish democratic politics, campaigned for transparency and accountability in Europe.) Neither is it true of Youth Defence (which declined to seek a mandate by deciding not to campaign under its own name) or of the many small left-wing groups whose energy and activism contributed greatly to the strength of the No vote but who would not claim a broad national profile.

The second reason why Sinn Féin is best placed to articulate the No vote is the nature of its campaign. Its main advocates, Mary Lou McDonald and Pádraig MacLochlainn, performed very impressively and, for the most part, without resorting to hysteria.

The coincidence of the highest No votes with areas where Sinn Féin is strong suggests that it was also very effective on the ground. And crucially, Sinn Féin's whole appeal was based on a simple proposition: "A Better Deal In Europe". The argument it made, and that a majority of the people bought, was that, if we voted No, we could go back to the table, get a better deal on a range of issues, and vote again. Whether you think this is true or not (and I don't), the fact is that the Irish people chose to believe that it is.

The one patent absurdity in Sinn Féin's otherwise effective argument is the repeated contention that "A No vote on June 12th will give the Irish Government a strong mandate to negotiate a better deal for Ireland". It is pure nonsense to suggest that a No vote gave the Government a mandate to do anything. You get a mandate by winning the popular vote, not by losing it. The peoples' democratic verdict is that it does not trust the Government to negotiate on its behalf in this area of vital national interest. The people trust Mary Lou McDonald much more than they trust Brian Cowen to do a deal for us in Europe. The political establishment can't cop out from that reality - but neither can Sinn Féin.

Sending Micheál Martin and Brian Cowen off to Brussels to articulate the concerns of the people who voted against them is like sending Richard Dawkins off to make the case for God, or asking Iris Robinson to explain the virtues of a gay lifestyle.

Replace Dick Roche as Minister for European Affairs with, say, Pádraig MacLochlainn (via the Seanad). Give him the sincere and whole-hearted backing of the apparatus of the State to deal with the EU leadership. If he gets a fraction of what Sinn Féin believes to be attainable, it will be a wonderful achievement. If he doesn't, the electorate will at least know a fundamental premise of the No vote was mistaken.

An interesting thought. Probably not a good idea, since I don't think Sinn Fein's pro-European claims are all that honest and they might be happy to sabotage the outcome.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jun 17th, 2008 at 04:15:04 AM EST
If I may give an insight of the french side of the no vote...

We had exactly the same argument: that voting NO would give the govt a mandate to negociate a "better deal for France and for EU"

What really happened is that the NO vote was self sufficient, did not support any effort to renegociate and lead to nowhere. I have not seen any party advocating for a "better" constitution at the time, being serious about it and engage in european wide discussions.

Because the root of the problem is that whatever is considered as "a better deal" in France is completely different as what would be "a better deal" in Ireland.

Take abortion, or fiscal policy: you will never, ever, have a french left wing party (and a good deal of right wing parties either) vote for that. The same goes for neutrality, common defense policy and so on.

While you may get support in Germany for a european seat at the security council, neither France nor Britain will accept to lose their seat so that EU could get one.

On social welfare: I remember from my time there that sweden seemed very strongly opposed to any transfer of social issues to EU level, for fear of jeopardizing the high quality swedish social welfare by mixing with low quality mediterranean mismanaged french system (among others ^_^).

Poland or baltic states will never accept neutrality as a defence policy at EU level, nor the french ambition of a european stand alone army: they will only agree to a NATO driven defence, because US is good and helped them against USSR.

In 2005, I got the opportunity of reading the treaty. I spent a lot of time on it, as well as my colleagues at work (we had it printed and available on the coffee table). We had a lot of discussion about it, and I almost voted NO. I thought otherwise nevertheless because I knew, from my previous experiences abroad, that it was highly unlikely to get anything else from renegociation between so many different countries, where no-one has the same conceptions or purposes of what is the European Union.

by Xavier in Paris on Tue Jun 17th, 2008 at 05:18:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Absolutely: we proceed by getting as much agreement as possible and punting the rest into the future. That's why the idea of making the most legitimate of the No campaigners responsible for getting the deal they say is available is appealing.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jun 17th, 2008 at 05:21:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree with this. We failed to do that in France, but I'm sure it would be better to acknowledge the governement failure on this treaty and have a "NO"-supporter to face explanations and discussiosn in Brussels.

In France, Chirac said before the vote that whatever the result, he would not leave the office. Of course the political climate at the time was such that, had he done otherwise, the no vote would have won some more votes, just because people was fed up with his governement.

by Xavier in Paris on Tue Jun 17th, 2008 at 06:14:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
On the other hand "never" is a long time.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jun 17th, 2008 at 05:23:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
at least for the fraction, mostly on the left, that claims to be pro-European: a profound ignorance that other countries (including the left there) may have different views on what the EU should be and how it works, and an belief, oblivious to reality that the treaty can be modified easily.

It's most infuriating, given that their most frequently used argument is: "have you read what's in the Treaty?"

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Tue Jun 17th, 2008 at 05:40:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Firstly Sinn Fein only has a marginal direct electoral mandate - unless you are suggesting thet Sinn Fein should replace - e.g. the PD's in the Governing coalition.

Secondly I can't see Fianna Fail agreeing to it.  Giving Sinn Fein such a prominent role recognises them as the real opposition and guarantees them a huge increase in seats  at the next election.  

Thirdly Sinn Fein are right in one sense:  Negotiating a pile of opt-out or clarificatory protocols specific to Ireland is easy as they don't require re-ratification in other countries.

As most of the NO side complaints are not relevant to the Treaty it is easy to draft protocols that address them:  e.g. "Nothing in this Treaty shall be construed as requiring mandatory military service for Irish citizens"  "This Treaty shall not mandate the implanting of microchips in babies"

Thus a "renegotiation" is quite possible and can be presented as addressing many of the key NO concerns and misconceptions.  Why give Sinn Fein the credit for that?

However, for a re-vote to pass, the implications of a NO vote would also need to be spelled out - e.g. that c. 25 Member states will proceed to implement most of Lisbon on the basis of Nice.

There has to be a clear downside to a NO vote to get the pro-EU vote out in even bigger numbers.

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Tue Jun 17th, 2008 at 11:27:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Just as devils advocate, why couldn't Ireland participate in anything that was implemented through the Nice treaty?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jun 17th, 2008 at 11:31:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That would be a matter of internal Irish politics.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 17th, 2008 at 11:33:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's why I asked Frank ...
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jun 17th, 2008 at 11:34:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The really crazy thing here is that the Irish Government, and most of the electorate, would want to participate in implementations of Nice - and as you say there is no legal reason why they couldn't do so.

But that also highlights how crazy the drafting of the Lisbon Treaty was.  90% of it (my guess) didn't need to be in it at all as it had already been agreed under previous Treaties.

For future reference - any future Treaties requiring popular ratification should be minimalist affairs - including only new measures which impact on the Constitution of member states.

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Tue Jun 17th, 2008 at 11:56:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If it's minimalist they'll complain you're hiding something. You can't win on that one.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jun 17th, 2008 at 11:59:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Don't agree.  If its already agreed it shouldn't be in a new Treaty - that only invites an unravelling of what has been agreed.  We need a clear and simple statement of new measures that require constitutional amendment - anything else muddies the water.

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Tue Jun 17th, 2008 at 12:10:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, part of the point of this exercise was treaty simplification. And if it leads people to realize what they're part of it can't be a bad thing, on principle.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 17th, 2008 at 12:14:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
We need to get treaty reform out of the hands of the Council, but that requires a true transfer of sovereignty - the EU remains an association of states, not a superstate.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 17th, 2008 at 12:02:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
IRELAND could be facing a second referendum on the Lisbon treaty as Foreign Affairs Minister Micheál Martin refused to rule it in or out yesterday after meeting his fellow EU ministers.

Results of a poll in Ireland yesterday suggest that up to 75% of those that voted no thought the treaty could be renegotiated easily, while a large number said they did not understand it.(Examiner)


<sigh>
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jun 17th, 2008 at 05:49:17 AM EST
up to 75% of those that voted no thought the treaty could be renegotiated easily

Great!

Well, an opt-out is easy enough to negotiate, that's true. It's added to the Treaties as a "protocol" of which there are a ton.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 17th, 2008 at 05:51:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Dublin offered plan to save EU treaty

Ireland will be offered additional guarantees of its sovereignty - possibly in areas such as taxation, military policy and family law - under an emergency plan to save the European Union's Lisbon treaty, government ministers and EU officials said on Monday.

They said the plan, still in its early planning stages, would involve no changes to the treaty's text, because all governments that have approved Lisbon would then have to ratify the altered document - a process regarded as virtually certain to fail, especially in the UK.

(...)

According to one senior EU government official, the solution will involve an offer of "explanatory protocols" that would state explicitly that Lisbon does not affect Ireland's power to set its own tax rates, maintain its traditional neutrality and control abortion policy.

Although legal experts say the treaty preserves Irish rights in these matters, the success of the anti-Lisbon referendum campaigners last week was due in large part to voters' fears that Ireland was ceding control over sensitive policy areas to Brussels.

EU leaders will hold their first substantive discussions on how to rescue the treaty at a summit on Thursday and Friday, and diplomats say the next steps will depend partly on what explanation Brian Cowen, Ireland's premier, gives his colleagues of why his countrymen voted No.

If he indicates support for the idea of additional protocols for Ireland, it may be possible for a detailed proposal to be presented at a subsequent EU summit in October, a senior EU official said.

One open question is whether the Irish government, having accepted the new protocols, would hold a second referendum.



In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Tue Jun 17th, 2008 at 06:02:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Jerome a Paris:
According to one senior EU government official, the solution will involve an offer of "explanatory protocols" that would state explicitly that Lisbon does not affect Ireland's power to set its own tax rates, maintain its traditional neutrality and control abortion policy.
The existing protocols add up to 128 pages, compared with 34 pages of the "Treaty on European Union" and the 154 pages of the "treaty on the Functioning of the European Union". The EU already has 37 protocols (see the table of contents). [All links: PDF]

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 17th, 2008 at 06:16:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What is needed is a mini constitution which deals with a simplified institutional structure and decision making process; but makes no attempt to prescribe details of what decisions the institutions may produce.

I would suggest something like.

1. Executive:

1.1 A ceremonial President of the Union, elected by members of the European and national Parliaments (with votes weighted to reflect the populations of the member states).
1.2 A European government (replacing the Commission and Council of Ministers), responsible to the European Parliament.

2. Legislative:

2.1 A Senate, perhaps modelled on the Bundesrat (representing the national governments) with votes weighted by national populations.
2.2 A lower House, similar to the existing European Parliament.

3. Judiciary:

3.1 A Supreme Court.
3.2 Lower courts created by law.

Legislation, within the powers of the European Union, to require the consent of both houses of the legislature. The only variation would be that the lower house would prevail on financial legislation, in case of disagreement (as otherwise the responsible government provision would not work).

I reckon this structure would be readily understood by the people of Europe and would at least have a chance of closing the democratic deficit.
 

by Gary J on Tue Jun 17th, 2008 at 06:28:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't think the Consolidated treaty on the European Union (the first part of the Treaty of Lisbon) is that far from that. It has only 55 articles in 34 pages, and deals almost exclusively with principles and institutions. It is still an international treaty between states, though, so sovereignty doesn't come from the people directly.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 17th, 2008 at 06:43:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"Ireland has not become a bastion of anti-EU sentiment."

Half-way true. A good part of the Lisbon vote was really a referendum on the current Irish government itself, and it broke the normal party lines as there were no candidates tied to this vote. Most of the Yes vote came in Dublin where people have received the most most benefit from EU funds. The No vote spread out through almost 100% of the rest of the country. There, in the rural areas, the current Irish government has only grudgingly applied a small amount those EU benefits and is not trusted to support the farmers and fishermen. A ready example is the destruction of the sugar beet farms, and the resulting dismantling of the rail freight system in favor of big, noisy, polluting super-trucks on the motorways.
Outside of the major metropolitan areas, the roads are still bad, the water is polluted, there are huge black areas for broadband, there are many people in poverty, etc. The structure of the Irish government makes the local councils just sockpuppets for the central government with no power and total disregard for the needs of its citizens.
Irish citizens believed that one could go to the EU directly and right some of the wrongs, and there we had almost complete disappointment; we were shuffled right back to the Irish government doing the wrongs.
Again, the rural part of Ireland was shortshifted, this time by the EU, and that is the other big part of the vote. One of the catch phrases used to promote the No vote was "We fought two wars to get our freedom and now we are going to meekly give it back up to an institution that will not help us?"
The neutrality issue, and the other fringe social issues are easily dealt with in a Protocol, but the issue of governance and application of EU policies and funds evenly and fairly across the country is another matter completely. The Irish government is in total denial of its role in the result of the Referendum, and until it acknowledges its shortcomings and inactions, until it strongly supports its farmers and fishermen, not much will be accomplished in reversing opinion within the country.


Marie

by marie on Tue Jun 17th, 2008 at 06:59:34 AM EST
Um. The Irish people, especially in rural areas, keep electing Fianna Fail. They seem happy with their lot. Blaming the EU for the failures of local politicians is just plain idiotic.

Irish citizens believed that one could go to the EU directly and right some of the wrongs, and there we had almost complete disappointment; we were shuffled right back to the Irish government doing the wrongs.

Which Irish citizens would that be? The ones claiming that the EU would be a disaster for our "hard-won freedom"? What would they be saying if the EU came riding in to override the decisions of the sovereign government?

I remember rural Ireland before the EU. I remember shitting in a barn in the early 70s because my great-uncle's house was too primitive for actual toilets. So don't even begin to try to tell me how awful the EU has been for rural Ireland.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jun 17th, 2008 at 07:08:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Colman:
Irish citizens believed that one could go to the EU directly and right some of the wrongs, and there we had almost complete disappointment
What was done to "go to the EU directly", by whom, and how were they disappointed?

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 17th, 2008 at 07:20:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The protection of Tara, for one issue, is hanging on by one fingernail, and only because of citizen lawsuits. Where does the sovereignty of an EU country end and where does the protection of heritage sites across Europe supercede ignorant and arrogant local planning? The EU has not been a big help here.

Marie
by marie on Tue Jun 17th, 2008 at 07:35:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You want the EU to overrule the National and Local government on development planning? Isn't it a matter for local and national government to protect cultural heritage? It appears the Irish Government has failed to even get the Hill of Tara declared a UNESCO World Heritage site, which would afford it some protection.

In any case, this article seems to limit the scope of EU intervention in local affairs. After all, democracy should be as close to the citizen as possible, right?

Article 5
(ex Article 5 TEC)

  1. The limits of Union competences are governed by the principle of conferral. The use of Union competences is governed by the principles of subsidiarity and proportionality.

  2. Under the principle of conferral, the Union shall act only within the limits of the competences conferred upon it by the Member States in the Treaties to attain the objectives set out therein. Competences not conferred upon the Union in the Treaties remain with the Member States.

  3. Under the principle of subsidiarity, in areas which do not fall within its exclusive competence, the Union shall act only if and in so far as the objectives of the proposed action cannot be sufficiently achieved by the Member States, either at central level or at regional and local level, but can rather, by reason of the scale or effects of the proposed action, be better achieved at Union level.
    The institutions of the Union shall apply the principle of subsidiarity as laid down in the Protocol on the application of the principles of subsidiarity and proportionality. National Parliaments ensure compliance with the principle of subsidiarity in accordance with the procedure set out in that Protocol.

  4. Under the principle of proportionality, the content and form of Union action shall not exceed what is necessary to achieve the objectives of the Treaties.
    The institutions of the Union shall apply the principle of proportionality as laid down in the Protocol on the application of the principles of subsidiarity and proportionality.
How would you modify this to allow the EU to get in the way of motorway construction in Tara?

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 17th, 2008 at 07:50:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Make protection of sensitive cultural and historical sites an EU business in the same fashion that protection of sensitive habitats already are. Oftentimes, irresponsible (read: Right-wing) local politicians in Denmark have been overruled in matters of local planning by the EU directive on habitat protection, particularly pertaining to the nesting and stopover sites of migrating birds (of which there are rather a lot on the Danish west coast, which is one of the most benighted and backwards strongholds in Denmark).

- Jake

Ceterum censeo Chicago esse delendam

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Jun 17th, 2008 at 07:55:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But would it fall to the EU to declare Tara a heritage site?

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 17th, 2008 at 07:58:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, the national government largely controls which sites are chosen for the Natura 2000 networks. The EU does intervene directly on the basis of species protection.

Cultural heritage is not something dealt with on the EU level (the EU only has coordinating and facilitating functions on culture).

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Tue Jun 17th, 2008 at 08:06:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So if a cultural site straddled a national border, the EU could get involved.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 17th, 2008 at 08:16:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Maybe (I have no idea).
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Tue Jun 17th, 2008 at 02:05:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Actually, the EU does intervene a huge amount in local planning decisions based upon its Habitats and Wild Birds directives, as well as its ambient emission norms (on sulphur dioxide, fine particles, and so on). The latter up to a point where it has become virtually impossible to construct new roads in the densely populated west of the Netherlands.

Have there been lawsuits?

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Tue Jun 17th, 2008 at 07:57:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There is nothing in the Commission's Culture section to suggest "Culture" has anything to do with "Heritage". It's all about diversity and creativity.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 17th, 2008 at 08:02:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
True. The EU does not have real powers in the realm of Culture (all that I have listed are environmental constraints).

However, it is probably worthwhile to consider a suit on the basis of the Habitats or Wild Birds Directives, or on the basis of the EIA Directive. Unless the planning decision was really watertight.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Tue Jun 17th, 2008 at 08:10:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Marie - you are articulating the left wing and environmental component of the no vote - which made up (at a guess perhaps 10 -15%) of it in total.  The other 40% want LESS EU "interference" in Irish affairs - viz Dana's rant about people voting for "the primacy of the Irish Constitution over EU law", Libertas' rants about EU bureaucracy and threats of increased regulation/taxation, and Coir's rants about EU forcing us to legalise prostition, abortion etc.

Most of the NO vote derived from in xenophonic nationalism and religious cant.  Promising even more EU "interference" in Irish affairs will only encourage them in their oppositon.

Give them a pile of protocols clarifying that the Treaty has nothing to do with that crap - and you are addressing the complaint that the Treaty was too complex and opaque, and undermining a large part of the basis for that vote.

Now if Ireland wants to engage in enhanced cooperation to achieve a higher level of environmental and heritage protection - great - but lets not re-open the ratification process in 26 other countries to achieve this.

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Tue Jun 17th, 2008 at 11:44:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'd successfully avoided Ms Scanlon's rants on the topic, thankfully.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jun 17th, 2008 at 11:51:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Madam -  It is bizarre for DANA ROSEMARY SCALLON (Letters, June 14) to claim that  "we represented the hundreds of millions of EU electorate who never got the chance to express a democratic vote".  They have their own 26 democratically elected Governments to represent them - and these governments won't appreciate a collection of Irish Sinn Feiners and Me Feiners telling them how to run their countries.

She further claimed that "The rejection of the Lisbon Treaty is a clear statement by the people of Ireland that they wish to maintain the primacy of Ireland's Constitution ...." However the Irish people gave up that primacy the day we joined the EEC and agreed to pool our sovereignty and share power with all our fellow EU members.  So is she really saying we should now leave the EU and go back to the dear old Catholic Ireland of prior to 1973?

Seamus Mallon once famously described the Good Friday Agreement as "Sunningdale for slow learners"  arguing that it took the Unionists 30 years to realise that they had to share power with their national neighbours if they wished to live in peace and prosperity with them.  How ironic that an Irish Catholic Nationalist should now be trying to tear down the powersharing and good neighbourly relations we have had with all our fellow EU member states for the past 35 years.

It is mainly the Tory Eurosceptics, Le Pen Style racists and US neo-conservatives who are rejoicing at this result, because it reduces the possibility of the EU (and Ireland) becoming more united, coherent, and influential in world affairs.



"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Tue Jun 17th, 2008 at 12:01:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"The Irish people, especially in rural areas, keep electing Fianna Fail."

Oh, yes, now there I do agree totally with you. People still vote for governments the way their fathers did based on Pro-Treaty anti-Treaty stands. It is much like the US citizen voting for Bush twice, and voting for awful candidates because the are Republicans or Democrats.Yes, this has to change as the rural Irish are voting against their own interests often; they are slowly waking up.
As I said, the Lisbon Treaty vote fell out of the normal 'bot vote as there were no candidates involved.

As to toilets, I can still show you many houses without indoor plumbing to this day.

Now if you were lucky enough to get a good paying job, and your spouse works, and get your land free from your father, you can build a trophy house with an indoor loo, or 4. Some have not been as lucky and are only managing to hold onto their land and living.

Marie

by marie on Tue Jun 17th, 2008 at 07:30:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As to toilets, I can still show you many houses without indoor plumbing to this day.

Where? I don't know of any. And this was just no plumbing ...

The LT and the EU is not the problem: the failures of democracy across the EU are largely at the national level and are causing any failures of democracy at the EU level.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jun 17th, 2008 at 07:33:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"Where? I don't know of any."

Ah, Colman, you live in a rarified and privileged atmosphere. Come meet my neighbors' chamber pots.
You have to be rather silly to believe that real poverty no longer exists in rural Ireland.

Marie

by marie on Tue Jun 17th, 2008 at 07:41:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Where would that be?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jun 17th, 2008 at 07:48:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
when it is pointed out that it's not just the French front pager guy who is an elitist snob!

:)

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Tue Jun 17th, 2008 at 07:55:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, it's not like either of us are especially secretive about it. Anyway, you're more of an elitist than me.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jun 17th, 2008 at 09:03:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ah, Colman, you live in a rarified and privileged atmosphere

Avowedly so: as I've pointed out in the past we're in the top 10% of incomes and I can feel any connection with reality slipping away.

I would be surprised and disgusted to find that there is significant real poverty (as opposed to relative poverty) outside of marginalised groups like Travellers and refugees. A certain amount of people falling through the cracks, sure. (I'm just disgusted but not surprised that there's real poverty among the marginalised groups.)

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jun 17th, 2008 at 11:47:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't know Ireland well at all, but from my short visits there, I would not be surprised to find the UK pattern of real poverty amongst some of the elderly repeated there.
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Tue Jun 17th, 2008 at 12:31:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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