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Wednesday Open Thread

by afew
Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 10:13:14 AM EST

About time...


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Obama addressing AIPAC now.  I am watching with great curiosity.
by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 10:29:43 AM EST
It was being broadcast on Radio5 here. I turned it off cos I couldn't bear it. Let me know if he has anything positive to say about ending the occupation.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 10:39:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh my god, he just called for an undivided Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, which puts him right alongside Hillary Clinton and Rudy Guliani, and would be... a departure from longstanding US policy.
by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 10:42:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
He's having a go at Iran now, talking about how dangerous it is and how it's getting stronger because of US presence in Iraq.

"I will do everything in my power to prevent Iran from obtaining a nuclear weapon.  Everything in my power to prevent Iran from obtaining a nuclear weapon.  Everything."

Well, it's clear what he means.

That line got applause.

Then he said it would start with diplomacy.  Now he's talking about "tough and principled diplomacy."

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 10:46:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Not to be taken to seriously! I came across an astrological analysis of Obama, though I can not acess the entire article, but the following paragraph would fit with what has been discussed in this thread so far.

Star World News - Home

So you think Obama is a pacifist?  He may say all the right words, but he still has that neo-con love of exploding bombs, flying bullets, and burning flesh; at least it would seem from his astrology.  The Mars/Neptune square in the US chart would indicate that we launch off on wars with sometimes shaky rationales and that we sometimes seek misplaced religious succor in being righteous warriors.  Obama's Mars right over this configuration would only seem to reinforce the current trends in the US foreign policy, and the idea that definitive action always trumps cautious circumspection.  This can be quite dangerous for government-types and lethal for those who live on coveted lands, resources, and strategic zones....

this was writen on the 14. Mai.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 02:26:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, that is consistent with his speech at AIPAC today...

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 02:36:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Definitely a bad sign, but he's still a wild card once he gets into office. Now fighting the general election, he's going after the suburban nationalist vote.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 03:27:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I expected to be disappointed. I did not expect it to be so soon.
by det on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 03:38:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There is always a "before" and an "after".

When Procrustes looks after you, you're sure to fit in.
by PerCLupi on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 11:20:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Look at it this way - if Israel ended apartheid and respected one-person, one-vote for citizens in all of the territories, maybe it wouldn't be a bad thing to have an undivided Jerusalem as capital of the resulting state.

Add in right of return and just imagine where we end.

(And this will be the last time I comment on the subject...)

"C'est un scandale !"

by redstar on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 03:08:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I cannot get it here and I admire you for having the  stomach to watch it.  It makes me cringe just to read it, but thanks for reporting it.

Missed you around, although maybe I was the one missing here.

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. --Charu Saxena.

by metavision on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 11:16:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
We are preparing to resume our ordained place as leaders of the free world.  We expect you to forget any transgressions since it was only the evil republicans that did it.  Further instructions to follow.

I expect we will be so busy trying to avert catastrophe that our influence will be secondary, and I think we will be forced into a more accomodating stance.  Who knows, if we are forced into it long enough we might actually see how well it works.

"I said, 'Wait a minute, Chester, You know I'm a peaceful man...'" Robbie Robertson

by NearlyNormal on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 01:57:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Does the wake up begin?

Daily Kos: Is anyone else bummed about the AIPAC speech?

I was feeling so great this morning after months of being intensely involved in Obama's campaign. I volunteered, gave money, and spent far too much time vicariously savoring this remarkable candidate's honesty, integrity, and values. I have to admit to myself, however, to being intensely saddened and disappointed after making the mistake of watching Senator Obama's speech to AIPAC.
by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jun 5th, 2008 at 01:31:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Going Dutch: Guardian readers say Brits must back the Netherlands in Euro 2008 | Football | The Guardian

But Guardian readers have finally produced a definitive answer to the big question about Euro 2008, at least if you're British - who to support in the first major football tournament without either a British or an Irish presence since 1984. And the answer is: the Netherlands. The final verdict was arrived at via an online poll from a shortlist of Romania, Spain, Sweden, the Netherlands and Germany.

snip

There were 48,232 votes cast in the poll, the overwhelming majority of them - 96.2% - for the Netherlands. Spain came second with 1.8% of the vote, followed by Germany (1.4%); Sweden (0.4%) and Romania (0.2%). If the level of support for the Netherlands seems surprisingly high, it is because Dutch ingenuity even extended to hacking into and trying to rig the Guardian's online poll.

In the final days of voting, the Dutch website GeenStijl (literally "no style") instigated a campaign to tilt the balance their country's way, eventually spawning a triumphant piece of hacking that gave Holland an improbable percentage of the votes.

Since they would have won without cheating, the Guardian decided not to disqualify the team.

Bold mine. GeenStijl is an anarchistic, politically right leaning  blog hugely popular in the Netherlands - yet when I came across this gem in the Guardian this morning I did have to chuckle. GeenStijl is notorious for unhinging on-line polls.

by Nomad on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 10:35:00 AM EST
But it seems that there was  a genuine preference for them anyway. Good luck to 'em if they think it matters.

I still maintain I have no favourites but will generally enjoy the games and be pleased if an underdog wins. I'll be in Bulgaria for the latter stages so it could be real fun if one of the local favourites get through. Tho' I have no idea who they would be; definitely not greece, either Romania or Russia at a guess.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 10:45:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Realistically, the Dutch should be the underdogs in two out of the three group games. And the third, against Romania, is also tricky. I would not give Romania a chance at winning the tournament, though. Russia might.
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 10:58:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I guess on Friday or Saturday we'll need a predictions thread.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 11:01:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
when does the Eurocup begin? I was thinking today Jonathan is old enough to enjoy it...

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 12:57:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
On saturday Details here

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 01:20:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
what team will he be supporting?

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 01:33:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
We'll soon find out, won't we?

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 02:02:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think we'll definitely be rooting for CZ in the opening match...

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 02:17:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
if there's a CZ against spain match though...


Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 02:24:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Then we'll have lots of fun and Spain will lose.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 02:28:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That could only be in the final, and Spain won't make it past the quarter-finals as we're likely to meet either France or Italy.

By the way, who was the blockhead who made teams from the same group cross in the semi-finals?

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 02:34:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Some turd in EUFA.

I'm afraid that much tho I think the FA are a bunch of amateurs dazzled by a compex world entirely beyond their comprehension, they are sometimes run close by the bozos at FIFA & EUFA.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 02:40:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Designing a tournament is not brain surgery, for crissakes!

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 02:48:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
As far as these numbskulls are concerned it might as well be astrophysics.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 04:00:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
More like astrology...

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jun 5th, 2008 at 02:46:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Spain could face the Dutch!!!

I can't even recall whether that ever happened before.

by Nomad on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 03:06:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yeah, the Clockwork Orange, just what we need.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 03:16:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
We met in the qualifying for Euro 1984 (tales of the Maltese goalie being bribed still ruminate in the Netherlands). The record then was:

Spain - Netherlands 1:0
Netherlands - Spain 2:1

And that's all there was.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 04:20:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Goals away count double for tie-breaking, so we win, har har har!

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 04:47:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
At least there's no risk of refusing to travel to where the semis would be...

"C'est un scandale !"
by redstar on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 03:20:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Wonder how much Eisenhower gave Franco for that little gem....

"C'est un scandale !"
by redstar on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 03:21:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What, you mean Marcelino's header against Russia?

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 03:29:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No...the time Spain refused to go to Russia to play and forfeited the quarter final.

"C'est un scandale !"
by redstar on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 04:23:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ouch that's a tough group you're in.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 11:02:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There is no Belgian presence in the cup either.
This Flemish air carrier (VLM) presented today one of his planes (Fokker 50)painted orange in support of the Dutch team.
This plane flies a regular daily service Schiphol - London-City.
   

The struggle of man against tyranny is the struggle of memory against forgetting.(Kundera)
by Elco B (elcob at scarlet dot be) on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 01:35:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Honestly, I've completely missed the countdown to the EC - until today. It's very sad, I don't even have one orange attribute with me.

I love it that the plane reads "Aanvalluh" (Hopeless translation attempt: "Chaaaaarguh").

by Nomad on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 03:02:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hmmm...wonder why they didn't put France on this list ;-)

"C'est un scandale !"
by redstar on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 03:10:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Adding that I have to simply cheer for the refreshing prospect of there not being any English at the tourney whatsoever...

"C'est un scandale !"
by redstar on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 03:11:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I can finally, one month and three weeks after his departure, announce that a good friend of mine has returned out of Zimbabwe and back to Johannesburg, together with his two young children (who had been living in Zimbabwe with a caretaker) and all the necessary paperwork. It took bribing to get across the Zim border; he was send back at the first attempt. It's still not completely over - he is now trying to get a refugee status, which means applying at the notorious department of Home Affairs.

School teachers and soldiers in Zim now receive an allowance of 13 billion; factory workers 5 billion. Considering that a taxi ride (single fare) is 200 million, 5 kg of mealy meal is some 1 billion and 2 litres of cooking oil is 2.5 billion sold at the black market, it still doesn't cut it. Police is bribing for food, not money. Malnutrition has been setting in. How long can this continue?

He's afraid of war. With the xenophobic crisis in SA in its aftermath (suppressing curses), the focus should be going back to Zim. Three weeks and counting for the presidential run-off.

by Nomad on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 10:46:25 AM EST
Oh god, he has my deepest sympathy. The situation is awful, Mugabe is demonstrably mad when he says that the lack of food in Zim is down to the British govt and that the land grabs were brilliant.

As for Mbeki, incompetent is the mildest word I can find. Is Mbeki genuinely willing to allow Zimbabweans to starve on the principle of revolutionary solidarity ? In which case how did the revolution help Africans ???

I'd like to think things will turn out well, but I have no expectation.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 10:59:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Glad to hear of that provisionally-good ending.  Hope it gets much better though.

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. --Charu Saxena.
by metavision on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 11:22:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Glad your friend got his kids out of there, although I desperately wish I felt better about the idea of anybody foreign seeking refuge in South Africa right now.

He has my sympathy in advance regarding Home Affairs.  I would rather swallow glass.

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 11:37:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A Pedant speaks

I accept that I'm coming across a bit Lynne Truss here, but can I ask something.

I can accept that in the US the first person perfect tense of the verb "to dive" is  "I dove". Despite it being properly "I dived" and a dove is a bird.

But I really, really cannot bear reading that in the US the first person perfect tense of the verb "to wreak" is "I wreaked", or even "I wrecked". It is wrought, as in "I wrought".

This is not aimed at anyone here (afaik) but I saw it several times on kos and elsewhere recently and I just had to rant.

And no having back about my lousy typos. I know, I know, I know. See how I care.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 10:54:12 AM EST
Hmm.

From the OED:

wreak, v.

8b. To cause or effect (harm, damage, etc.), esp. in phr. to wreak havoc. (For wrought havoc see WORK v. 10.)

1983 Times 21 Nov. 7/7 Moko, the banana disease, has already wreaked havoc on the trade.

work, v.

10. To effect, bring about, bring to pass; to accomplish, achieve; to cause, produce. (In early use often approaching sense 1.) Esp. in phr. to work havoc, where the pa. tense wrought is common (though it is often interpreted as the pa. tense of wreak: cf. WREAK v. 8b). See also 38f, 39h.

1983 National Law Jrnl. (U.S.) 4 July 14/2 With hard disk technology..power failures can often work havoc.
1984 Financial Times 4 June III. p. vii, A decade of inflation had wrought havoc with its portfolio of fixed interest mortgages.

So, this is for the phrase "work/wreak/wrought havoc".
Note that this is the only phrase on the page of the verb wreak that contains wrought, and this is supposedly an archaic past form of work...
Otherwise we can read:


II. 3.    a. To give vent or expression to, to exercise or gratify (wrath, anger, etc.); to vent.:
1878 SEELEY Stein III. 315 Stein wreaked his disappointment in unsparing criticism.

...

    c. refl. Of a passion, feeling, etc.: To give expression to (itself); to find utterance or free course.:
1887 R. S. STORRS in Libr. Mag. Aug. 106 The Hellenic spirit..wreaked itself in immortal expressions on the choicest marbles and temples in the world.


etc...

What have you wrought?

by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 11:30:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
From my perspective I think it would help if the OED were written in intelligible english.

However;-

Esp. in phr. to work havoc, where the pa. tense wrought is common (though it is often interpreted as the pa. tense of wreak)

See, this is the difficulty. Which comes first, the use of the language by people at large, or the academic's analysis. Language is dynamic, not static, and "I wrought havoc" as the past participle of wreak is common where I am. That is, in english.

Now it may well be that the common usage in America is "wreaked", even if the OED seems to have no view on the existence of such a construction, just as dove is used in place of dived. But it's not english, it's American.

And wreaked hurts my eyes/ears in the way dove does not. Wrought please ? I beg you.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 11:42:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Noooooo.... For dove, yes you are correct.
But! Wrought does not exist as a past tense of wreak, according to the OED. The only place you see it on the page, is where it refers you to the work page. I.e. wrought is a past tense form or work. Now, the confusion crops in with the expression wreak/wreaked/work/wrought havoc. I think this is the most common usage of wrought. The other place I have heard wrought used is for worked (that is hammered) metal.

Checking some other random dictionary:

wrought - definition of wrought by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

wrought [rawt] Verb
Old-fashioned
a past of work

Adjective
Metallurgy
shaped by hammering or beating: wrought copper and brass USAGE: Wrought is sometimes used as if it were the past tense and past participle of wreak, as in the hurricane wrought havoc in coastal areas. Many people think this use is incorrect.

I am fine with wrought, but it is the past tense of work, damn it.

by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 11:55:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't see you having stated what the perfect tense of wreak should be. Wreaked is just wrong.

I dunno, might the words work and wreak have similar roots and wrought is past tense of both ?

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 12:09:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't even think "wrought" is a real word.  I think y'all just use it to screw with us.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 12:14:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
now I know why your bridges collapse, you built them out of wrecked iron rather than wrought iron didn't you

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 12:22:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Could be.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 12:24:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Nope. Wrought is an archaic past form of work. (Wrought iron?) Wreak is a different verb.

There's probably confusion caused by the continuing use of the expression "wrought havoc", which may easily be understood to imply a present form "wreak havoc", when it should be "work havoc".

I don't think it matters much. Of course the speakers make the language. But don't knock the "academic analysis": the OED is based on a colossal sum of historical knowledge of the English language.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 12:56:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The past tense of wreak is wreaked after all?

Personally, "wrought iron" sounds way more cool than "worked iron". Gets more points.

by Nomad on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 01:13:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
One of the great things about the OED is that every meanings are accompanied by a sourced quotation of the earliest known use of the word with a given meaning.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 01:16:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It is wreaked, as stated below by Nomad. Sorry for not being more explicit. The las blockquote of my original post indicate wreaked, in the quotations it provides. In fact, all past tenses of the verb to wreak are wreaked on the OED wreak page. Wrought is only meantioned as a past tense of work, which is sometimes confused for past of to wreak.

The page for work is very, very long. And includes about 1 billion spellings over the ages. With quite shifting meanings as well. Them not easy words, the old ones.

by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 01:47:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The plot thickens, and your idea that "wreak" and "work" might share the same root turns out to be right.

Online Etymology Dictionary

wreak
O.E. wrecan "avenge," originally "to drive, drive out, punish" (class V strong verb; past tense wræc, pp. wrecen), from P.Gmc. *wrekanan (cf. O.S. wrekan, O.N. reka, O.Fris. wreka, M.Du. wreken "to drive, push, compel, pursue, throw," O.H.G. rehhan, Ger. rächen "to avenge," Goth. wrikan "to persecute"), from PIE base *werg- "to work, to do" (cf. Lith. vergas "distress," vergas "slave," O.C.S. vragu "enemy," L. urgere; see urge (v.)). Meaning "inflict or take vengeance," with on, is recorded from c.1489; that of "inflict or cause (damage or destruction)" is attested from 1817.
wretch
O.E. wrecca "wretch, stranger, exile," from P.Gmc. *wrakjan (cf. O.S. wrekkio, O.H.G. reckeo "a banished person, exile," Ger. recke "renowned warrior, hero"), related to O.E. wreccan "to drive out, punish" (see wreak). Sense of "vile, despicable person" developed in O.E., reflecting the sorry state of the outcast, as presented in much of Anglo-Saxon verse (e.g. "The Wanderer"). A Ger. word for "misery" is Elend, from O.H.G. elilenti "sojourn in a foreign land, exile."
wreck (n.)
1228, "goods cast ashore after a shipwreck, flotsam," from Anglo-Fr. wrec, from O.N. *wrek (cf. Norw., Icel. rek) "wreck, flotsam," related to reka "to drive, push" (see wreak). The meaning "a shipwreck" is first recorded 1463; that of "a wrecked ship" is from 1500. General sense of "remains of anything that has been ruined" is recorded from 1713; applied by 1795 to dissipated persons. The verb meaning "to destroy, ruin" is first recorded 1510. Wreckage is first attested 1837.
wrack (n.)
c.1386, "wrecked ship," probably from M.Du. wrak "wreck," cognate with O.E. wræc "misery, punishment," and wrecan "to punish, drive out" (see wreak). The meaning "damage, disaster, destruction" (in wrack and ruin) is from c.1408, from the O.E. word. Sense of "seaweed, etc., cast up on shore" is recorded from 1513. The verb meaning "to ruin or wreck" (originally of ships) is recorded from 1562, from earlier intrans. sense "to be shipwrecked" (1470). Often confused in this sense since 16c. with rack (1) in the verb sense of "to torture on the rack;" to wrack one's brains is thus erroneous.

PIE:

Introduction & Abbreviations

PIE Proto-Indo-European, the hypothetical reconstructed ancestral language of the Indo-European family. The time scale is much debated, but the most recent date proposed for it is about 5,500 years ago.

However, "wreaked" is still the correct (modern) past form of "wreak". If it had a different form (since we see here it was a "strong" verb, in other words formed its tenses by umlaut or vowel change within the word, and these are the Old English verbs that give us "irregular" verbs today), it would have been "wreak" pronounced "rek", like "read", "read", pronounced "reed", "red".

Why does "work", a regular verb, have this old past form "wrought"?

Online Etymology Dictionary

work (v.)
a fusion of O.E. wyrcan (past tense worhte, pp. geworht), from P.Gmc. *wurkijanan; and O.E. wircan (Mercian) "to work, operate, function," formed relatively late from P.Gmc. noun *werkan (see work (n.)).

So one of the Old English forms had the past tense "worhte", which is obviously the ancestor of "wrought", while another, later, form was derived from the noun meaning "work", and was formed as a regular verb. That's the one that has survived till today, though we still say "wrought iron", "overwrought", etc.

I bet you're glad you got to the end of this (if...).

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 04:49:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And the dove/dived disagreement is not new:
1857 Canad. Jrnl. Industry Sci. & Art II. Sept. 351 In England when a swimmer makes his first leap, head foremost, into the water he is said to dive, and is spoken of as having dived... Not so however, is it with the modern refinements of our Canadian English. In referring to such a feat here, it would be said, not that he dived, but that he dove.
by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 11:34:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, pssshhh.  "Wreaked" is just fine.  Shows up as proper with my spell-check.  Don't be such a Brit.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 11:54:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Your spellchecker was written by an American. Most Brits know american spellcheckers are advisory-only and not to be taken as definitive.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 12:06:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Nope.  Going to play my population card again.  300m Yanks, 60m Brits.  It's our language now.  We just call it English because we're nice like that.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 12:12:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
At least you ungrateful colonials could pay attention when we're trying to gently lead you to the path of writing and speaking properly.

Our George II was better than yours. And I think you'd rather have our George III than the one in the pipleine. At least ours was properly mad, what's McCain's excuse ?

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 12:26:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
C'mon: When was the last time we really paid attention?  1812?

Do you really need more proof that McCain is properly mad?  You might think George III was mad, but just wait until Grandpa Simpson and his circus broadcast their psychosis from the People's Republic of Minnesota this summer.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 12:42:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
He's properly mad too.  He was tortured, you know.

Somewhere in cyberspace, the ghost of de Chardin is smiling.
by budr on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 12:53:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
you get to vote when you spell proper. ;-)

or become a monarchy, after all it is the queens english.

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.

by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 12:26:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
i suppose that explains george.

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 12:27:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Drew J Jones:
300m Yanks, 60m Brits.  It's our language now.  We just call it English because we're nice like that.

This would be more convincing if you were any good at using it.

We'd like it back before you break it permanently.

Thanks.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 02:27:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
As far as I can tell plenty of Brits don't actually speak English but rather some incomprehensible stuff. Memories of being driven back from parties in high school by the Scottish father of a friend of mine. "yes, nod, mmhmmh, ummh, mmmh [christ, maybe if we switched to French....] And no, I don't think it was the wine I'd had. (fun fact for American readers - our parents provided us with alcohol, the hosts' parents generally stayed around huddled in their room in case they were needed, and a couple sets of parents would stay up late to provide car transport home. Our high school dances had bars, and we'd meet up with teachers at a pub after school as well)
by MarekNYC on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 03:21:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If we haven't done so after eight years of President Numbnuts, I hardly think we're in danger of breaking it permanently.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 06:02:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
all spell checkers are advisory only.

if You can work out where I went wrong then I have obviously communicated my intention to you correctly, and that is the point of language.

having said that using wreaked does make me irritated too although if you pointed out my misspellings, the most polite answer you would get is probably not for gentle ears.

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.

by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 12:13:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, the regularisation of irregular verbs in English is normal and happens slowly but regularly ; it's also obvious it won't happen to the same verbs in different English-speaking populations, as it is somewhat random...

Auferre, trucidare, rapere, falsis nominibus imperium; atque, ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 12:00:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The fun thing here is that we're talking about regular verbs - "dive, dived, dived", and "wreak, wreaked, wreaked" - that have been "folk etymologized" into irregular forms.

"Dive, dove, dove", is obviously under the influence of "drive, drove... driven" (though American usage hasn't gone as far as to allow: "she has diven"). And "wreak" has come under the influence of an alternative past form of "work".

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 04:27:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Stranger yet :

Online Etymology Dictionary

dive
emerged 13c. from O.E. dufan "to dive, duck, sink" (intransitive, class II strong verb; past tense deaf, pp. dofen) and dyfan "to dip, submerge" (weak, transitive), from P.Gmc. *dubijanan. Past tense dove is a later formation, perhaps on analogy of drive/drove. Sense of "disreputable bar" is first recorded Amer.Eng. 1871, perhaps because they were usually in basements, and going into one was both a literal and fig. "diving."

It seems that folk irregularisation is similar to an older irregular form, if I deaf can be counted as similar to a modern I dove.

Auferre, trucidare, rapere, falsis nominibus imperium; atque, ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 05:48:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's a bit like "work" (see above), where a strong and a weak form of the verb co-existed, with the weak (regular) form winning out. In that case there's a definite survival of the strong form with "wrought".

But with "dive", the strong form's past tense is deaf (pronounced with two distinct vowel sounds, something like dé-af), which is unlikely to have survived as "dove". The analogy with "drove" is the most probable explanation.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Jun 5th, 2008 at 03:33:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Gah, is a functioning alarm clock really too much to ask nowadays?

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 10:58:03 AM EST
Apparently. Wake up, Drew !!!

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 11:08:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm up, but I'd set the stupid thing for 3.30 this morning, and it never went off.  Woke up at 6.15, when I should have already been at work for half an hour.

Sony: The General Motors of Home Electronics.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 11:13:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Dear Swami:

My mind never ceases its dialogue and is always asking questions. I'm wondering if you have a secret method that can end all questions? I seem to be trapped in a mental feedback loop.

Helen Teheven, Midland, Texas

Dear Helen:

First of all, you can be thankful for one thing. Your problems are all in your mind! Therefore, the solution is simple. If you want to stop the constant dialogue, you must go out of your mind and into your heart. The best way to do this is to gather all the thoughts in your head in one intense ball of tension, and then release these rapidly while breathing out: "Aaa-a-a-a-a-ah!" The "ah" sound is specifically related to the heart, and the process of sighing -- particularly when there is a sizable sigh -- allows maximum release. This isn't my idea, by the way. I learned it years ago from Sigh Baba, who was also known as "The Wizard of Ahs."

Of course, given the way the mind works you will find questions creeping back into your consciousness. No problem. Just remember that it takes two to dialogue, so don't answer them. Before long, the questions will stop and you will begin to hear answers instead. Now you're getting somewhere! Still, to clear the mind and transcend thought completely requires constant vigilance, especially nowadays where information seeps in from everywhere. No wonder so many of us are suffering from truth decay! That's why four out of five transcendentists recommend mental floss. That's what I do. Anytime I feel the effects of too much thinking, I place my thumb and forefinger about six inches from each ear and gently move it back and forth like I'm flossing. No better way to release excess flossophy, and go from the static of the head to the ecstatic of the heart.

© Copyright 2008 by Steve Bhaerman.

Emphasis mine.

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. --Charu Saxena.

by metavision on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 11:10:07 AM EST
related issue. We have a potential project here in Skamania County, WA; and one of the main contentions of the opponents is that there are possible health effects involving - primarily - low-frequency noise and vibrations. (When I wrote the "vibrations" part, I couldn't help but flash on the old Beach Boys/13th Floor Elevators song - "Good Vibrations".)

At any rate they exhibited a letter from Dr. Nina Pierpont (hmmm - a Pierpont - hmmm) concerning a research project that grew out of her practice in Maine. Soon to be published, she mentioned. Gist was that less than a mile of distance on the downwind side may present a potential for several health problems.

I talked to the Planning Dept. head of our east-neighboring county, which is approaching $2 billion USD in wind-turbine property assets, and he said that they get almost no complaints, except an occasional one about "light flicker". However, that county has a very low population density, and all of the 'wind farms' are being sited on the properties of willing participants.

Upshot is that I take such concerns seriously enough to ask the experts for their experience/opinion. Any information for me?

paul spencer

by paul spencer (spencerinthegorge AT yahoo DOT com) on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 01:56:52 PM EST
Articles by Nina Pierpont: Wind Energy
Wind Turbine Syndrome is the clinical name I have given to the constellation of symptoms experienced by many (though not all) people who find themselves living near industrial wind turbines: sleep problems (insomnia), headaches, dizziness, unsteadiness, nausea, exhaustion, anxiety, anger, irritability, depression, memory loss, eye problems, problems with concentration and learning, tinnitus (ringing in the ears). As industrial windplants proliferate close to people's homes and anywhere else people regularly congregate (schools, nursing homes, places of business, etc.), Wind Turbine Syndrome likely will become an industrial plague.

The following is a series of articles and reports I have written on wind energy and human health.

...

The book will be sold on www.WindTurbineSyndrome.com (credit card sales, using PayPal) for approx. $10 & shipping. Start checking www.WindTurbineSyndrome.com in late June to make your purchase. (Website currently under construction.)

...

Wind Turbine Syndrome is a 100-plus page clinical, scientific report, easily readable by non-clinicians. It is the complete and authoritative report on Wind Turbine Syndrome to date. The intended audience is clinicians (such as your family doctor) and people who are (or about to be) living in the shadow of wind turbines. Based on the evidence presented, it calls for a minimum of 2 km setbacks of industrial turbines from people's homes.




When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 02:09:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Selling a book before publishing a paper is hardly the way to establish credibility.

The methodology seems to be based on phone interviews and self-reporting, rather than objective clinical examinations.

That doesn't help establish credibility either.

It shouldn't be too hard to measure subsonic noise acoustically - which should refute the arguments, if there's very little, which I'd guess there would be.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 02:40:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, it would be worth discovering if ther's any peer-reviewed publication of this "syndrome". Tell them you have a cure with this here Brazilian rain forest oil of snake.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 02:43:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Since many of the low frequency sound objections originated in Britain, we should look at how the British Wind Energy Association responds.

BWEA On Noise

The conclusion is biased, as expected.


It has been repeatedly shown by measurements of wind turbine noise undertaken in the UK, Denmark, Germany and the USA over the past decade, and accepted by experienced noise professionals, that the levels of infrasonic noise and vibration radiated from modern, upwind configuration wind turbines are at a very low level; so low that they lie below the threshold of perception, even for those people who are particularly sensitive to such noise, and even on an actual wind turbine site.

In response to concerns that wind turbines emit infrasound and cause associated health problems, Dr Geoff Leventhall, Consultant in Noise Vibration and Acoustics and author of the Defra Report on Low Frequency Noise and its Effects, says:

    "I can state quite categorically that there is no significant infrasound from current designs of wind turbines."

I would begin research in this issue at NREL and AWEA, or for more definitive answers at Risoe and EWEA, for after all, Europe has far more experience.  There are dozens, if not hundreds of reports on the issue.

The short answer, to be kind, is that Nina Pierpont is pulling her "science" out of her ass.

I suppose the hundreds of thousands (millions?) of Germans and Danes and Spaniards who continue to live productively in their homes near operating wind parks could be thought of as the control group, and the 17.3 "shills" who continue to exhibit a disease called "opposition financing" do not represent a fair sample.

But then i probably suffer from Wind Turbine Syndrome, or Wind Turbine Syndrome fatigue.

Skennah Kowa

by Crazy Horse on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 03:14:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
the word clinical does not mean what she thinks it means.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 03:40:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
sleep problems (insomnia), headaches, dizziness, unsteadiness, nausea, exhaustion, anxiety, anger, irritability, depression, memory loss, eye problems, problems with concentration and learning, tinnitus (ringing in the ears)

A set of symptoms you could get fairly impressive numbers for with almost any group living near anything.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 03:57:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Finally got the job I wanted.

Have to be in Paris by the end of July. Just dropped the price of my house by a big amount....time to dump the thing now...

If you were looking for a 4-bedroom home in Minneapolis/St Paul's finest urban neighborhood, have I got a deal for you!

"C'est un scandale !"

by redstar on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 03:04:14 PM EST
Nuclear plant alert in Slovenia

The European Commission has issued an alert over an incident at a nuclear power plant in Slovenia.

The EU's executive body says it was informed by Slovene authorities about a problem with the primary cooling system of the Krsko nuclear plant in the southwest of the country.

It says the plant was implementing a safe shutdown procedure and no discharge into the environment has been immediately detected.

That is all there is.

by det on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 03:31:38 PM EST
AFP via Google News: EU issues alert after incident at Slovenian nuclear plant
"A loss of coolant has occurred in the primary cooling system of the Krsko nuclear power plant," in the southwest, the commission said in a statement.

...

The EU's executive arm activated its European Community Urgent Radiological Information Exchange (ECURIE) system, immediately transmitting the information to all 27 EU member states.

...

The ECURIE system requires early notification and exchange of information "in the event of a radiological or nuclear emergency".




When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 03:36:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Wikipedia: Krško Nuclear Power Plant
The Krško Nuclear Power Plant is located in Krško, Slovenia. The plant was connected to the power grid on October 2, 1981 and went into commercial operation on January 15, 1983. It was built as a joint venture by Slovenia and Croatia which were at the time both part of Yugoslavia.

The plant has a Westinghouse pressurized water reactor, with a rated thermal capacity of 1,882 thermal megawatts (MWth) and 632 megawatts-electric (MWe). It runs on enriched uranium (2.1-4.3 weight-percent 235U), fuel mass 48.7 t, with 121 fuel elements, demineralized water as the moderator, and 33 bundles of 20 control rods each made of silver, indium and cadmium alloys to regulate power.

...

The planned retirement date is January 14, 2023. The decommissioning plan that was ratified by Slovenian and Croatian parliaments schedules the start of disassembly shortly after that, and the taking apart of the plant would last until 2036.




When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 03:41:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Wikipedia: Pressurized water reactor
Pressurized water reactor (PWRs) (also VVER if of Russian design) are generation II nuclear power reactors that use ordinary water under high pressure (superheated water) as coolant and neutron moderator. The primary coolant loop is kept under high pressure to prevent the water from reaching film boiling, hence the name. PWRs are the most common type of power producing reactor and are widely used all over the world. More than 230 of them are in use to generate electric power, and several hundred more for naval propulsion. They were originally designed at the Oak Ridge National Laboratory for use as a nuclear submarine power plant. Follow-on work was conducted by Bettis Atomic Power Laboratory.

...

Advantages

  • PWR reactors are very stable due to their tendency to produce less power as temperatures increase, this makes the reactor easier to operate from a stability standpoint.
  • PWR reactors can be operated with a core containing less fissile material than is required for them to go prompt critical. This significantly reduces the chance that the reactor will run out of control and makes PWR designs relatively safe from criticality accidents.
  • Because PWR reactors use enriched uranium as fuel they can use ordinary water as a moderator rather than the much more expensive heavy water as used in a pressurized heavy water reactor.
  • PWR turbine cycle loop is separate from the primary loop, so the water in the secondary loop is not contaminated by radioactive materials.

Disadvantages

  • The coolant water must be highly pressurized to remain liquid at high temperatures. This requires high strength piping and a heavy pressure vessel and hence increases construction costs. The higher pressure can increase the consequences of a loss of coolant accident.
  • Most pressurized water reactors cannot be refueled while operating. This decreases the availability of the reactor- it has to go offline for comparably long periods of time (some weeks).
  • The high temperature water coolant with boric acid dissolved in it is corrosive to carbon steel (but not stainless steel), this can cause radioactive corrosion products to circulate in the primary coolant loop. This not only limits the lifetime of the reactor, but the systems that filter out the corrosion products and adjust the boric acid concentration add significantly to the overall cost of the reactor and radiation exposure.
  • Water absorbs neutrons making it necessary to enrich the uranium fuel, which increases the costs of fuel production. If heavy water is used it is possible to operate the reactor with natural uranium, but the production of heavy water requires large amounts of energy and is hence expensive.
  • Because water acts as a neutron moderator it is not possible to build a fast neutron reactor with a PWR design. A reduced moderation water reactor may however achieve breeding ratio greater than unity, though these have disadvantages of their own.
  • Because the reactor produces energy more slowly at higher temperatures, a sudden cooling of the reactor coolant could increase power production until safety systems shut down the reactor (OPΔT trip).


When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 03:46:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
How did it get so late in the evening already? I still have loads to do.  I played ice hockey again last night for the first time in nearly a year.  It's the first time our training slot has been early enough for me to make it along.  Awesome being back on the ice although I was so rubbish!

Ad astra per aspera
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 04:57:23 PM EST
After a year away, the question would be, how are your legs feeling this morning?  ;-)

Trust you enjoyed your return to the ice.

Skennah Kowa

by Crazy Horse on Thu Jun 5th, 2008 at 03:14:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]


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