Turkey has some work to do ...

by Colman
Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 07:17:45 AM EST

Among the things that have to be resolved before it can join the EU:
Founded by Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, the Justice and Development Party, the AKP, won a landslide victory in the last election. But its critics say it is trying to impose Sharia law on the secular state. The party's attempt to ease a ban on the wearing of the Islamic headscarf is expected to be central to the evidence. Prosecutor Abdurraham Yalcinkaya, who has argued that the party has become the focal point of anti-secular activities in Turkey, is appearing before judges in a closed-door session.(BBC)
This is utterly undemocratic: the courts are being asked to override the results of an election because some people don't like the resulting policies. Overriding the policies because they conflict with the constitution is one thing, throwing out the government on ideological grounds is another.

The EU Enlargement Commissioner agrees:

Olli Rehn has warned the case could jeopardise Turkey's bid to join the bloc - arguing such disputes should be resolved through the ballot box, not the courts.
I'm not worried about Turkey joining because it might be a bit Islamic but because it might not be. This country is a real source of potential trouble within the EU:
As the hearing opened, Turkish media said police had made a series of arrests of people believed to be linked to an anti-government network.

Two retired generals and a senior journalist were detained during an early morning swoop which broadcasters said was part of an investigation into an ultra-nationalist grouping called Ergenekon.

The group is reported to have planned political disturbances and is accused of trying to organise a coup against the government. The police have made no official comment on the arrests.

The influence of the military and other self-appointed guardians of the secular constitution has to be curbed before Turkey can join the EU.


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Or is a military coup better than allowing women wear headscarves in university?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 07:18:53 AM EST
This is not a military coup, this is the Constitutional Court!

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 07:22:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
See the second half. My sense is that the ultra-nationalists will pull a coup if they think they'll get away with it.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 07:24:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Why not just rig the next election?  Coups are so 20th Century.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 07:37:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Amen my friend.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 10:05:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
BBC NEWS | World | Europe | Turkish ruling party put on trial
Prosecutor Abdurraham Yalcinkaya, who has argued that the party has become the focal point of anti-secular activities in Turkey, is appearing before judges in a closed-door session.
What does "prosecutor" mean here? Is he acting in an official capacity or is he simply representing plaintiffs? Or is himself the plaintiff? Can a "Prosecutor" act on his own initiative?

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 07:24:48 AM EST
Wikipedia's article on Yalçınkaya links to this Hürriyet story:

Turkey's AKP seeks a 'religious model', prosecutor says

Turkey's chief prosecutor Abdurrahman Yalcinkaya accused the governing AKP of trying to eliminate the principles of secularism and of seeking a model based on religion, according to the indictment.

CNN Turk television reported Yalcinkaya presented audio and video tape evidence, in addition to the 162-page long indictment, to support his accusations.



When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 07:27:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But Colman's point is right: Put the policies on trial in the courts, not the party.  Otherwise, the judiciary is a little pointless, isn't it?

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 07:38:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, if the State Prosecutors can, on their own initiative, prosecute writers for insulting Turkishness, maybe they also can prosecute people or organizations for being anti-secular.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 07:42:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes. Probably same crowd as well: secular nationalists.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 07:49:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As if it would be any other crowd in Turkey?

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 08:09:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It is one thing to make some policies illegal, and it is another to make advocating those policies illegal. It seems that Turkey is doing both. If it can be said the AKP is a platform to implement unconstitutional policies, why not disband it?

Rien n'est gratuit en ce bas monde. Tout s'expie, le bien comme le mal, se paie tot ou tard. Le bien c'est beaucoup plus cher, forcement. Celine
by UnEstranAvecVueSurMer (holopherne ahem gmail) on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 07:50:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Because advocating for change - even constitutional change - shouldn't be a crime?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 07:54:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
My french cultural background betrays me, but it is in some cases.

Rien n'est gratuit en ce bas monde. Tout s'expie, le bien comme le mal, se paie tot ou tard. Le bien c'est beaucoup plus cher, forcement. Celine
by UnEstranAvecVueSurMer (holopherne ahem gmail) on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 08:01:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Advocating for change should be a crime?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 08:48:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, only reforms are allowed.

More seriously, Migeru has the comparison below. Religious parties in Turkey are our nazi parties.

Rien n'est gratuit en ce bas monde. Tout s'expie, le bien comme le mal, se paie tot ou tard. Le bien c'est beaucoup plus cher, forcement. Celine

by UnEstranAvecVueSurMer (holopherne ahem gmail) on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 08:56:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Religious parties in Turkey are our nazi parties.

To be honest, I'm not sure I'd take such a statement from a non-Turk, and even from a Turk I'd demand some backup arguments.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 09:00:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You're right, I meant it in the legal sense. As Martin says below, the Turkish Constitution is probably less supported by the general population than in western Europe.

Rien n'est gratuit en ce bas monde. Tout s'expie, le bien comme le mal, se paie tot ou tard. Le bien c'est beaucoup plus cher, forcement. Celine
by UnEstranAvecVueSurMer (holopherne ahem gmail) on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 09:03:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So, if Montebourg were not a Socialist but a Catholic and his 6th Republic movement advocated an end to State-enforced secularism, would they be disbanded? Or prevented from forming a dedicated political party?

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 09:21:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't think so. But whether, under the own term of the constitution, that would be a threat to democracy as we know it remains an open question.


Rien n'est gratuit en ce bas monde. Tout s'expie, le bien comme le mal, se paie tot ou tard. Le bien c'est beaucoup plus cher, forcement. Celine
by UnEstranAvecVueSurMer (holopherne ahem gmail) on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 09:37:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, Montebourg can get away with advocating a 6th Republic... And check out this poster:

Regime change, no less!

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 09:02:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In Spain it is a crime to insult the Crown, but it is not a crime to form a Republican party advocating the abolition of the monarchy unless it calls for armed insurrection.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 07:59:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's illegal to call for the destruction of the political institutions; but what if the proposed policies are just as harmful to the political system as outright destruction.

It seems to me that this is the argument in this case, that the Turkish constitution posits secularism to be the necessary foundation of democracy.

Rien n'est gratuit en ce bas monde. Tout s'expie, le bien comme le mal, se paie tot ou tard. Le bien c'est beaucoup plus cher, forcement. Celine

by UnEstranAvecVueSurMer (holopherne ahem gmail) on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 08:05:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This constitution had never in that way a majority of people behind it. Democracy can only work if 95% or so of the people are fundamentally behind the constitution. In Turkey it are not even 50% - and never were it and will not be in the foreseeable future.

You are right that the Turkish constitution posits secularism, and that the AKP could be declared illegal. But of course it is as well indeed impossible to integrate such a military dictatorship into the EU.

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 08:50:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Do you have evidence for that contention? I don't think the extreme end of the AKP has overwhelming support, though I think a lot of Turkish voters don't support the more extreme interpretations of secularism either.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 08:57:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But the 'extreme interpretations of secularism' (the same way many people in France interpret it) are the ones, the constitutional court in Turkey is enforcing.
Everybody voting for the AKP is clearly an enemy of the constitution. Why is a party with a 2/3 majority in the parliament suing its own country on the European court of human rights as it happened some years ago?
The Turkish constitution is clearly not democratic - see the non-control over the military, which is using its power to promote specific parties. Do you really think Turks don't want to have a democracy? (Yes, there are a lot of Turks, who don't want, but that are the secularists, not the AKP people)

Most things I have ever heard of that the AKP has asked for in terms of religious freedom are legal in Germany. As far as I know, we are not an islamic theocracy.

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 09:26:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I believe Mark Steyn and friends would disagree: Germany is, after all, at the heart of Eurabia.

I don't doubt that you'd get a lot of support for a change to the Turkish constitution from voters.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 09:37:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Most things I have ever heard of that the AKP has asked for in terms of religious freedom are legal in Germany. As far as I know, we are not an islamic theocracy.

Just you wait, by 2020 Muslims will form a majority and make everyone where a burqa. I read it in the Wall Street Journal so it must be true.

by MarekNYC on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 09:48:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
pwned. Damn.
by MarekNYC on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 09:48:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Martin:
But the 'extreme interpretations of secularism' (the same way many people in France interpret it) are the ones, the constitutional court in Turkey is enforcing.
Um, being asked to enforce.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 10:24:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The question if wearing a headscarf in universities (by the students) was already before decided.

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 10:45:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Everybody voting for the AKP is clearly an enemy of the constitution.

That's just patently untrue, and an absurd conclusion.

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 12:54:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
While I am as curious about the sources of your figures as Colman is, I also wonder how much of the Consitution this support/rejection concerns. After all, say on death penalty for child murderers, you'd find majority support in most European countries.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 09:55:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
First I doubt that you would find majority support in most European countries for child murderers to be executed. In Germany there was a clear swing away from this opinion.

I think it matters, if the constitution represents a general consensus or not. Being against some aspects of a constitution is not being against that constitution as a whole, but when the disagreement covers issues of everyday live such as the suppression of Islam, when the military threatens publicly a coup in case somebody (Gül) is elected president, who has major support in the population, and well, when it happens what is described in this diary, that the majority party is on court to be forbidden, this are not minor issues, even if it turns out it is finally not forbidden and the military doesn't do a coup. I don't think most Turks want a revolution, but they want to change the character of the country. That is more than just an arbitrary change of responsibilities from a president to a prime minister. The AKP people will never say it that way, because that could stop the peaceful change of Turkey, but the secularists say it, e.g. in interviews on TV.
And how many Europeans fight for the death penalty? Ten?

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 10:43:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In Poland, millions.

I take you interpret the AKP voting base as opposed to the Constitution, for supporting a government in clinch with the secular establishment? I think you go too far. The military establishment and even the Constitutional Court aren't the Constitution. They are interpreting it. The conflict is a serious issue, but you are assuming its conclusion at a time AKP people are still fighting for the interpretation that they are NOT in contradiction with the unchangeable parts of the Constitution.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 01:51:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think the court thing is about the question if a platform which has, among others, goals that run against the constitution is itself something which has to be forbidden. The AKP is not the first party with similar goals. Others were forbidden before. The NPD in Germany is as well not forbidden, while it clearly has goals, which would be unconstitutional.

And I imagine, that some people are pretty convinced, given what is at stake, if the AKP would really be forbidden. Which countries would want to be friends of the next Turkish gov, if the biggest democratic party is forbidden? Belarus?

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 02:51:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
First I doubt that you would find majority support in most European countries for child murderers to be executed. In Germany there was a clear swing away from this opinion.

That's just one country. After some searching, I find that there are now majorities against the death penalty in most EU-15 countries, but majorities for all across the former East Bloc (for example the Czech Republic), as well as Southeast Europe, and the UK. That's most European countries. In Poland, an advocate is President.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 02:30:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I hadn't done any research, but only what I knew by heart. But I if there would be a real vote on death penalty, I still think the result would be different than in this polls. Have these people thought about who will do the execution in which way?
However, still your research results do make me sad.

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 02:38:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So it's illegal for me to say that the French should get rid of the executive presidency and change to a parliamentary system with a mainly ceremonial head of state? It's illegal for me to call for the disbandment of the French army?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 08:52:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's...weird.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 08:08:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What exactly is weird about that? The part about the insults or the part about being able to be Republican as long as you're peaceful?

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 08:10:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The insults, of course.  The Republican part is perfectly reasonable.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 08:17:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's also a crime to slander the armed forces, and the government.

I think we talked about this when it happened:

The July 18, 2007 edition of the magazine was sequestered by law on July 20 considering that it violated laws 490.3 and 491 (both related to insults to the Crown) and was an offence to Prince of Asturias and his wife, which were portrayed with a caricature in the front cover performing a sexual act. This caricature made reference to a new proposal of the government, where 2500€ will be given to parents for each newborn child. Since the prince has never performed a remunerated job, the caricature said that if the princess got pregnant and they got the 2500€, that's the nearest the prince will be to working. [1] Its website was also briefly closed but has since re-opened. In November 13, 2007, Guillermo Torres and Manel Fontdevila were found guilty of having offended the crown, "had vilified the crown in the most gratuitous and unnecessary way", and were fined 3,000€ each. [1]
(see the cover here)

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 08:24:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A favorite game of mine a few years ago - shocking left wing American friends with details about European laws.
by MarekNYC on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 09:34:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Surely you're not suggesting that ignorance is prevalent on both sides of the aisle in America, are you?  That's just crazytalk.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 09:40:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
We used to play that game regularly here, with poemless volunteering as the shocked one.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 12:43:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Being incorrect in one's legal reasoning shouldn't be a crime.  On what grounds need the AKP be disbanded by force?

If we're going to prosecute everybody who advocates unconstitutional policies, we're going to need a helluva lot more prosecutors, cops and jails.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 08:04:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, it appears that Turkey's secularist nationalists think Islamic parties in Turkey are like Nazi parties in Europe. From the Hurriyet article linked upthread:
According to media reports, the indictment accusses Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan of statements that are the "focal point of the anti-secular actions." During a recent visit to Spain, Erdogan, in a response to a question about the headscarf, asked: "Even if it's a political symbol. Is it a crime to wear headscarf as a political symbol? Can you ban icons, symbols."


When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 08:09:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This is why I'm not too bugged by this issue.

Rien n'est gratuit en ce bas monde. Tout s'expie, le bien comme le mal, se paie tot ou tard. Le bien c'est beaucoup plus cher, forcement. Celine
by UnEstranAvecVueSurMer (holopherne ahem gmail) on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 08:12:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Because you agree non-secular parties should be banned?

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 08:15:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm not bugged by the fact that what I agree to be a reasonable law -- forbidding nazi parties -- can have different objects somewhere else.

So I'm not bugged by the reasoning used. Now as to whether such a stringent understanding of secularism is required in Turkey today, I don't know.

Rien n'est gratuit en ce bas monde. Tout s'expie, le bien comme le mal, se paie tot ou tard. Le bien c'est beaucoup plus cher, forcement. Celine

by UnEstranAvecVueSurMer (holopherne ahem gmail) on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 08:25:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm not bugged by the fact that what I agree to be a reasonable law -- forbidding nazi parties -- can have different objects somewhere else.

So, for you, when they were forbidding the communist party, they were right?

More generally, if a bunch of military and nationalists decide that it is dangerous for the country to promote the Kurdish culture, or the environment, or whatever, they are entitled to forbid any movement doing so?

"Ne te courbe que pour aimer..." René Char

by Melanchthon on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 09:18:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Again, I'm not bugged by the reasoning. I have said nothing about the object of the law.

Rien n'est gratuit en ce bas monde. Tout s'expie, le bien comme le mal, se paie tot ou tard. Le bien c'est beaucoup plus cher, forcement. Celine
by UnEstranAvecVueSurMer (holopherne ahem gmail) on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 09:20:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So, if this were a party advocating recognition of the Kurds as a minority and the granting of autonomy, would you also say that to judge by the way the State is reacting, that party is "like our Nazis"?

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 09:23:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Kurdish autonomy is not listed as a threat to the foundations of the Turkish polity, as far as I know.

Rien n'est gratuit en ce bas monde. Tout s'expie, le bien comme le mal, se paie tot ou tard. Le bien c'est beaucoup plus cher, forcement. Celine
by UnEstranAvecVueSurMer (holopherne ahem gmail) on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 09:43:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But the State apparatus acts as if it were.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 10:23:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
See Martin's first comment. Would Turkey's integration lower the ability of the Military to influence politics?

Rien n'est gratuit en ce bas monde. Tout s'expie, le bien comme le mal, se paie tot ou tard. Le bien c'est beaucoup plus cher, forcement. Celine
by UnEstranAvecVueSurMer (holopherne ahem gmail) on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 11:03:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As long as it is felt that if has that ability it probably cannot join the EU.

The guest post by Andrew Arato on Juan Cole's blog explains the issue very well (my emphasis).

Informed Comment: Arato: The Turkish Constitutional Crisis and the Road Beyond

The makers of the Constitution of 1982 established a dual, semi authoritarian or semi democratic state, with important reserves of power outside the constitution. Starting with the elections of 1983, and then constitutional changes already in 1987 Turgut Özal managed to expand the democratic dimension, leading to a great reform process from 1995 to 2004, that in several rounds that involved the consensual participation of all parliamentary political parties, managed to significantly but by no means completely constitutionalize political powers in the system. Today people stress several military and indeed judicial interventions in this period, that we can see only managed to slow down the rate of change, exclude parties that would reappear in new forms and under new names, but nevertheless confirming the existence of important political centers that could continue to act outside all democratic accountability and constitutional restraints. From 2000-2001 especially, the Turkish parties and governments were under increasing European pressure to eliminate these authoritarian residues, and it was then that the idea of a gradual amendment of 1982 Constitution was replaced by that of a new "civil" or "civilian" Consitutiton. But though the point was not entirely clear either to the European critics or the Turkish participants, unless Turkey had a revolution against the Constitution of 1982, even an entirely new civilian constitution would have to be introduced as a large scale amendment of the still valid basic law.
The (philosophical) issue is one of rule of law understood in a legal-positivist sense as primacy of the Constitution. In so far as the Turkish constitution continues to be reformed in the direction of bringing both the Constitutional Court and the Military under the Constitution's authority, Turkey will be progressing towards EU membership.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 11:13:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Andrew Arato's guest post on Informed Comment again (my emphasis):

Informed Comment: Arato: The Turkish Constitutional Crisis and the Road Beyond

The Constitution of 1982 has unchangeable provisions that the parliament cannot alter even with 100% of the vote having to do with the republican, secular and unitary character of the state. (Articles 1, 2,3 made unchangeable by Art. 4).


When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 11:19:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Informed Comment: Arato: The Turkish Constitutional Crisis and the Road Beyond
Furthermore even if the Constitutional Court cannot gain much legitimacy in defending the unchangeable provisions of an originally authoritarian Constitution, the legality of its jurisdiction provides it with a vantage point to bring attention to the equally weak legitimacy of a power seeking to alter this constitution on the bases of mere majority will. Both legitimacies are questionable, but the legal position of the Court will remain stronger unless the amendment rule itself were amended by parliament, an act that the Court could again find unconstitutional...because implicitly challenging the unchangeable articles.
This is like a game of Nomic, I love it.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 11:22:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well Kurdish parties have been banned or attempted to be banned repeatedly in Turkey most recently right now.

Let me point out here, that in most areas imaginable, the AKP has been more democratic, more secular (under pressure) and more europeanist than the Kemalist parties - by far.  To even debate this as if it should be an issue in a democratic society, is pointless. Erdogan's party is vastly less religious fundamentalist than extremist christian parties in the Netherlands, say.

It's an irony of history perhaps, but the road to Turkey's democratization passes through the islamic party...

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake

by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 12:02:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Turkey's secularist nationalists have a long history of disbanding Islamist parties that they can't defeat at the polls....
by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 08:14:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As the BBC says in the article linked by Colman in the Story:
The AKP was formed after a previous pro-Islamic party was banned. Its founders have since steered a moderate path, pursuing democratic reforms and directing Turkey towards the EU, says the BBC's Sarah Rainsford.

But they spent their political youth in the ranks of an overtly Islamist movement - and ardent secularists do not believe their views have changed.



When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 08:17:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It think that for the Turkish Constitutional Court the issue goes further. The policy is unconstitutional to be sure, but it undermine the existence of the political system as such. In that sense it's an outright attack on the foundations of their political system. If I could put it this way, I'd say that it's not simply unconstitutional, but aconstitutional.

Rien n'est gratuit en ce bas monde. Tout s'expie, le bien comme le mal, se paie tot ou tard. Le bien c'est beaucoup plus cher, forcement. Celine
by UnEstranAvecVueSurMer (holopherne ahem gmail) on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 08:09:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If a French political party got to power and started allowing teachers to wear crosses in the classroom, what would happen?

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 08:11:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's authorized, I think. The wording of the law is 'non ostentatious religions signs'...

Rien n'est gratuit en ce bas monde. Tout s'expie, le bien comme le mal, se paie tot ou tard. Le bien c'est beaucoup plus cher, forcement. Celine
by UnEstranAvecVueSurMer (holopherne ahem gmail) on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 08:13:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Supposed the party wanted to strike out that article entirely to allow unrestricted religious symbols to be worn.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 08:14:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Err... I'm no jurist. The French Constitution talks about relgion in its first article:
Article premier

La France est une République indivisible, laïque, démocratique et sociale. Elle assure l'égalité devant la loi de tous les citoyens sans distinction d'origine, de race ou de religion. Elle respecte toutes les croyances.

It also says in the declaration of Human rights:

Article X - Nul ne doit être inquiété pour ses opinions, même religieuses, pourvu que leur manifestation ne trouble pas l'ordre public établi par la loi.

The separation between Church and State is created by law. I imagine that this kind of policy would require a vote in parliament. If it is voted, it would go to the Constitutional Court (not sure), where it would have to be weighted against public order, indivisibilty and Laicity.


Rien n'est gratuit en ce bas monde. Tout s'expie, le bien comme le mal, se paie tot ou tard. Le bien c'est beaucoup plus cher, forcement. Celine

by UnEstranAvecVueSurMer (holopherne ahem gmail) on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 08:37:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The party's attempt to ease a ban on the wearing of the Islamic headscarf is expected to be central to the evidence.

Girls being allowed to wear headscarves -- not forced to, but simply allowed to -- undermines the political system?  You don't find that argument even the least bit silly?

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 08:16:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, I don't think I can know whether it does indeed undermine the political system. I don't know the role played by the scarf as a symbol in Turkey, nor do I know what possibilities it would open to the government if it were accepted. I have no inkling as to «where that would take Turkey».

Rien n'est gratuit en ce bas monde. Tout s'expie, le bien comme le mal, se paie tot ou tard. Le bien c'est beaucoup plus cher, forcement. Celine
by UnEstranAvecVueSurMer (holopherne ahem gmail) on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 08:21:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, it would undermine the political system, which probably wouldn't be that bad a thing given that the political system in question is one in which the civilians government is in charge until the military says otherwise ...
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 08:59:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Informed Comment: Arato: The Turkish Constitutional Crisis and the Road Beyond
Readers will surely know that there is currently a judicial process at the Constitutional Court, initiated by the head prosecutor of the Supreme Court, seeking to close the AKP party and ban from politics over 70 of its politicians including PM Erdogan and President Gül. They may not know that, though under legal constitutional jurisdiction (Articles 68 and 69), the charges involve an incredible mélange of private statements, fully legal political acts including passing laws and constitutional amendments, and imputations of intentions that are entirely unsupported. Thus the attempt to close the AKP is not legally but politically inspired, and would reverse the results of the last two democratic elections in which the party received between 3/5 and 2/3 of parliamentary seats (though, as I would also stress, given a disastrously bad Turkish electoral rule on the bases, of 37, and 44 % of the votes). ... on June 4 the same Constitutional Court has invalidated rather innocuous amendments to Articles 10 and 42 to Turkey's Constitution, intending to permit legislation and/or administrative decisions allowing the wearing of headscarves... The big question now is whether this decision foreshadows the closing of the AKP as the majority of Turks think or, as I maintained in a long interview in the liberal Milliyet on 12 June (Haziran) the Court has now established the option of switching to a more constitutional path of defending the constitution (and enforcing consensual change) than the nuclear and self-contradictory option of party closings.

...The origins of Turkish Constitution in 1982 were highly questionable (they were typically Bonapartist!) but since the major consensual reforms Turkey does evidently have a Constitution worth defending. A lot of it is now the work of democratic instances.

Arato goes on to describe AKP's part in the constitution redrafting process, and the domestic political background of the separated-out headscarf amendments - argues that the court may not really aim for a ban of the AKP.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 09:51:15 AM EST
I couldn't even think of the name of "Informed Comment" earlier. Thanks.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 09:59:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This thread makes a brave attempt at analyzing the force of laws that protect civil rights, but I would submit to you that analysis of such laws is completely out of context when you're talking about Turkey. There is no bedrock principle or fundamental statement of human rights which would give you a basis for such an analysis at all. If, for example, religious freedom or freedom of speech were ever ratified say, exactly as it is in the US, such a law could still be trumped by the fundamental rule and authority in the country. To many westerners, the case against the AKP seems as though someone pulled a rabbit out of a hat after a lost election. But in Turkey, the case against the AKP is simply par for the course as the party strayed beyond the real fundamental basis for secularity in the country. The secularism established by Ataturk is the bedrock of law in Turkey, and it relies on an adherence to a Modernist nationalism of which the AKP has run afoul. So, one may argue the laws on the books, but fundamentally, in context, those laws are not the basis upon which the nation moves.

You can compare the situation to the US Bill of Rights where the Right to Free Speech is the cornerstone of American democracy. As in Turkey, it is often attacked--though it has not yet been knocked off its perch. The same threats to it that exist in Turkey also exist in the US. However, the US has not yet succumbed to the subversion of this fundamental right. Whereas Turkey has succumbed to that subversion so often in the past that such acts become part of the political operation of the country itself.

by Upstate NY on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 10:38:03 AM EST
Hürriyet: Turkish people divided over AKP's closure, as 53 percent opposed (30 June 2008)
Fifty-three percent of Turks are against, and 34 percent is in favor of closing the ruling Justice and Development Party (AKP) for anti-secular activities, a poll in Turkey's Milliyet newspaper showed on Monday. Support to a possible ruling to close the AKP increases parallel to respondent's educational level. (UPDATED)

The poll, conducted by A&G Research with 2,403 respondents on June 14-15, showed that 53.3 percent Turks are against closing the AKP and 37.7 percent believe economic and political chaos will follow if the party is closed.    

...

A direct relationship exists between education level and support of the AKP's closure with 42.3 percent of university graduates supporting closure, and only 25.7 percent of primary educated in favor.

...

According to the poll's findings, the AKP seems to re-gain strength thanks to Turkey's Constitutional Court's decision to annul the bill lifting the headscarf ban in universities, following a steady loss of votes in polls since January.

The increase in the number of the uncommitted voters underlies recent claims that voters cannot find a political party to support




When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 05:34:39 PM EST
Hürriyet: Former Turkish prosecutor warns gov't could overhaul judiciary (28 June 2008)
A prominent Turkish legal expert said Saturday the Constitutional Court is concerned that the AKP government could overhaul the structure of judicial system and therefore wants to make a rapid decision on the closure case.

"The Constitutional Court acts rapidly. Otherwise (the government) will overhaul the judicial system. When they do this, it will be the end of the Republic of Turkey. A wider political front, including the CHP, should be formed for the early elections that would be hold after the AKP is closed. Then this political front would get 35-40 percent of the votes, unfortunately we cannot take this step," Vural Savas, the honorary top prosecutor of Turkey, told at a conference in southern province of Antalya on Saturday.

He added Turkey had been moved away from Kemalism with the "one party dictatorship" of the AKP government. He also blamed the Political Parties Law and the 10 percent threshold for the recent turmoil in the country.



When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 05:36:13 PM EST
A few links for those that might be unfamiliar with a couple of critical incidents in recent Turkish history:

The Susurluk affair 1, 2
Ergenekon

The secular humanists: Grey Wolves, a Gladio sponsored organization, featuring the usual fusion of the criminal underworld and far-right sociopaths and a connection to the the Ergenekon affair (see also here). And drugs. And the Pope.   If it was a Hollywood scenario you'd say it was outlandish.

Apart from the vast improvement in reasonably defined democratic standards in Turkey, I should add that the defeat of the Turkish "deep state" is IMHO the sine qua non of achieving meaningfully peaceful relations between Greece and Turkey. This would allow my tax euros to go uncontested to more worthwhile projects, instead of lining the pockets of various international and local arms-dealers and corrupt officials, in huge amounts (see # 16, 25 and 27), obscene actually, when you realize that this is only direct military expenses.

I thus declare a personal financial interest in Turkey having a government, the true leaders of which do not have "making war" as their main job description and who do not profit directly or indirectly by the threat of war and tension with their neighbours (the situation on this side is greatly simplified by the fact that we managed to fasten the army to its barracks since 1974 - it's not easy but it's easier). And who really want to join Europe. Erdogan is the only visible hope to achieve this.

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake

by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Tue Jul 1st, 2008 at 08:05:12 PM EST


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