LQD Revisiting Sociobiology

by Sven Triloqvist
Tue Jul 15th, 2008 at 04:35:03 AM EST

Taking a Cue From Ants on Evolution of Humans

Edward O. Wilson works with ants at Harvard - always a fascinating subject when considering how organizations get organized (both Harvard and the ants).

Dr. Wilson was not picking a fight when he published "Sociobiology" in 1975, a synthesis of ideas about the evolution of social behavior. He asserted that many human behaviors had a genetic basis, an idea then disputed by many social scientists and by Marxists intent on remaking humanity. Dr. Wilson was amazed at what ensued, which he describes as a long campaign of verbal assault and harassment with a distinctly Marxist flavor led by two Harvard colleagues, Richard C. Lewontin and Stephen Jay Gould.

more below....


The new fight is one Dr. Wilson has picked. It concerns a central feature of evolution, one with considerable bearing on human social behaviors. The issue is the level at which evolution operates. Many evolutionary biologists have been persuaded, by works like "The Selfish Gene" by Richard Dawkins, that the gene is the only level at which natural selection acts. Dr. Wilson, changing his mind because of new data about the genetics of ant colonies, now believes that natural selection operates at many levels, including at the level of a social group.

The David Sloan Wilson/Edward O. Wilson article in the Quarterly Review of Biology in 2007: RETHINKING THE THEORETICAL FOUNDATION OF SOCIOBIOLOGY

Darwin perceived a fundamental problem of social life and its potential solution in the following famous passage from Descent of Man (1871:166):

It must not be forgotten that although a high standard of morality gives but a slight or no advantage to each individual man and his children over the other men of the same tribe ... an increase in the number of well-endowed men and an advancement in the standard of morality will certainly give an immense advantage to one tribe over another.

The problem is that for a social group to function as an adaptive unit, its members must do things for each other. Yet, these group-advantageous behaviors seldom maximize relative fitness within the social group. The solution, according to Darwin, is that natural selection takes place at more than one level of the biological hierarchy. Selfish individuals might out-compete altruists within groups, but internally altruistic groups out-compete selfish groups. This is the essential logic of what has become known as multilevel selection theory.

We've discussed altruism at length here at ET. We've also recently discussed the need to understand the physiological basis of the communication process in order to refine our political messages.

Proposing an idea heretical to many evolutionary biologists is one of the smaller skirmishes Dr. Wilson has set off. In his 1998 book "Consilience," he proposed that many human activities, from economics to morality, needed to be temporarily removed from the hands of the reigning specialists and given to biologists to work out a proper evolutionary foundation.

"It is an astonishing circumstance that the study of ethics has advanced so little since the 19th century," he wrote, dismissing a century of work by moral philosophers. His insight has been supported by the recent emergence of a new school of psychologists who are constructing an evolutionary explanation of morality.

The final paragraph of the long article is a very interesting insight.

When Rabbi Hillel was asked to explain the Torah in the time that he could stand on one foot, he famously replied: "Do not do unto others that which is repugnant to you. Everything else is commentary." Darwin's original insight and the developments reviewed in this article enable us to offer the following one-foot summary of sociobiology's new theoretical foundation: "Selfishness beats altruism within groups. Altruistic groups beat selfish groups. Everything else is commentary."

Read it if you have the time. It provokes thought.

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One-foot summaries are something that ET needs to get better at. ;-)

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Jul 15th, 2008 at 04:38:35 AM EST
Can we one day get over the canard that human behaviour is strongly genetically determined ? It's not. We are reflexive animals, unlike ants. Applying "evolution theory" to economics or morality is absurd. Where is sexual reproduction in moralities ?

Auferre, trucidare, rapere, falsis nominibus imperium; atque, ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Tue Jul 15th, 2008 at 05:09:23 AM EST
You obviously don't agree that the behaviour drivers we call emotions only exist as biochemical processes. And that the propensity to produce or uptake more or less of these biochemicals is genetically based, though reflexively influenced over time ;-)

Nor would you probably agree that the particular individual qualities of our opioidergic systems have any effect whatsoever on our ability to learn or learn badly.

The only canard here is you, me duck ;-)

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Jul 15th, 2008 at 05:24:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Did you see the "strongly" in there ?

Are the irreconcilable differences between the Muslim Indonesians and the Papus genetic or social ? Are the Indonesians driving out the Papus because of genetic advantage ? Do the Indonesians dress and the Papus remain mostly nude because of their genes ?

The orbits of excited electrons around H2O, N2 and O2 molecules is an interesting thing to know, yet is not going to be very informative when trying to determine tomorrow's weather. Same for the genetics of social behaviour.

So the idea being put forward must be that the processes that direct evolution of human social behaviours are similar to those of biological evolution, despite not being carried through DNA. And that is hogwash.

Auferre, trucidare, rapere, falsis nominibus imperium; atque, ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Tue Jul 15th, 2008 at 05:39:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Of course detailed social behaviours are not carried through DNA, though individual behaviours can damage DNA in a way that crosses to the next generation and adds another driver to the biodiversity caused by background and catastrophic radiation mutation in cell clock speed. But a minor issue, agreed.

What the Wilsons argue (I think) is that wetware (hard and soft) is a product of DNA/RNA processes. I think you would accept that? And that these processes will produce different capabilities for 'manufacturing' eg hormones and semihormones (ie the ones with a neurotransmitter effect), in similar DNA individuals. The relative balance of these manufacturing systems affects 'personality'. Alcoholism is a Learned Behaviour Disorder - but alcoholics are often very good at learning. Too good, one might say. The 'thrill' of abundant noradrenalin production is another example of behaviour influenced by the 'manufacturing'.

I don't regard this as being in contention. What we are in contention about is whether this extends beyond the individual to social groups. If sufficient members of a social group share a DNA mix that produces biochemicals in a certain 'recipe', then it is possible that there are behaviour propensities that will be shared by that group - EVEN IF the behaviour that results will emerge environmentally i.e. if several social groups shared the same DNA mix, indivdual group behaviour will depend on environmental factors that can vary over time and geography and living conditions. The expression of the behaviour can thus be different from the biochemical chassis.

If we consider 'selection', then social behaviours (at a certain place in time) can lead to tribal growth or demise. Growth means the continuation of that tribal DNA mix, and the continuation of the biological propensities. Behaviour cannot pass on from generation to generation genetically, but the drivers for behaviour do.

Meanwhile.....

Game theory could save the world

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Jul 15th, 2008 at 06:41:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Alcoholism needs a society to exist - the infrastructure and knowledge to produce alcohol regularly. There were no alcoholics in America prior to Columbus.

Soft wetware mostly, and indeed hard wetware sometimes (midwives in Europe regularly "redisigned" the cranial features of newborns, a few centuries ago) , is not a product of DNA/RNA. Our societies have been able to invent concepts such as homosexuality. Our societies have been powerful enough to destroy such a basic wetware necessity, for survival of the species, as maternal instinct : most children in urban Europe two centuries ago were sent to the countryside to be fed, nobody actually caring if they died in their first two years.

The variability of genotypes in the human species is quite weak - it's not unthinkable the whole species went through a narrow bottleneck 100 000 years ago, a short time for evolution. If you put an European child in a pre-Columbian American tribe or civilization, he'll become undistinguishable from his peers socially, if you go beyond skin and hair colour. This regularly happened when American Indians kidnapped white settlers... The DNA mix is very weakly impacted by environmental conditions, beyond skin colour, in human societies.

Human societies' mores and behaviour are very strongly determined by social pressures, which are way, way stronger than genetical hardwiring.

And that game theory piece is hogwash too. Human beings aren't rational selfish utility-maximisers, and although game theory can inform the ways we can develop institutions to design our society, game theory theorems and computations don't apply literally to human societies.

Auferre, trucidare, rapere, falsis nominibus imperium; atque, ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Tue Jul 15th, 2008 at 07:15:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The problem with the game theory piece is mostly the piece itself, I'd say. Very poor science reporting.

There are two key errors: first, talking about the incorporation of elements related to social science in a mathematical model as if it were entirely unproblematic (not requiring substantial interpretation and discussion). Second, imputing radical novelty to an approach that has many antecedents. Just from my limited overview of policy analysis and political economy, related analyses have been around since the early 1990s at the latest. See e.g. Rules, Games and Common Pool Resources.

The importance of the study is also wildly overstated. I at least don't see concrete policy advice on how to use the findings to come to well-functioning global cooperation. It's just a study saying 'people may be more willing to cooperate than our previous model predicted when we incorporate factors x and y'.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Tue Jul 15th, 2008 at 08:12:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree, I just left it out there like pepper for the bloodhounds.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Jul 15th, 2008 at 10:00:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You are very successful in stirring up controversy ;-)
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Tue Jul 15th, 2008 at 01:31:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well I think we need to shake up the thinking on this, rather than reverting to the Nietzschean protocols ;-)

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Jul 15th, 2008 at 02:21:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's just a study saying 'people may be more willing to cooperate than our previous model predicted when we incorporate factors x and y'.

If we look from Taleb's "Black Swan" perspective of theoretical vs empirical fallacies, the selfishness imperative is more a logical ("Platonic") conclusion of a few simplistic assumptions than an empirical truth. Simplest evolutionary models indeed predict that the world must be robustly selfish, non-altruistic - and selective evidence may "confirm" that. But examples of nasty bugs and free-riding cuckoos form a rather isolated set of malicious tricks employed by relatively few species. Nasty viruses are pretty overwhelmed by endosymbiotic bacteria; similarly, the "common good" role of insects is probably much larger than their bugging.

If evolution must make lineages so selfish, why "tragedy of commons" situations are relatively unnoticeable in the nature?! But oops... if you run yourself into a tragedy of commons, you are already a looser, apparently.

Neo-darwinists are wrong assuming that all survival is differential, that is, that doing just better than others beats anything. (Oh, how this fallacy is affecting banking, politics and much else today). Genetically, our greed can only be so much different. We have genes both for greedy and altruistic behavior or feelings. What inclination are switched on, depends on what we learned or experienced in early ages, and on cultural circumstances. What is really in human nature is the tendency to copy or follow each other - so most repeated ideologies and opinions do matter.

The force of selfishness is not to be denied - but firstly, it's effects are not immediate: "naive" altruists do not die off immediately. On the other hand, massive greed is powerful enough to eat itself in a matter of few generations. But as evolution is a game of many thousands of generations, those episodes of greed "discoveries" do their equilibrium punctuations, but eventually they are in effect handled, adopted and rerun with ever growing sophistication.

Dealing with greedy fools is a complicated problem - but solutions, be they partial, "temporarily" and complicated, do evolve. Why not?

by das monde on Tue Jul 15th, 2008 at 10:14:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Wrong. The opioidergic system exists without any society at all. It is part of who you are. Alcohol is just one of many things that happens to stimulate it. Her baby's face will stimulate the mother's opioidergic system such that she becomes an 'addict'. Cute fluffy animals, chocolate, chilli, jogging beyond the pain barrier, and sex all do the same to some extent.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Jul 15th, 2008 at 09:56:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm not talking about the opiodergic system. I'm talking about alcoholism itself, which can't exist without society.

Auferre, trucidare, rapere, falsis nominibus imperium; atque, ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Tue Jul 15th, 2008 at 02:24:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Horses can become alcoholics. I AM talking about the opioidergic system.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Jul 15th, 2008 at 02:30:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I am not talking about the opiodergic system. Are you talking to yourself ? Horses can't become alcoholic without a system to produce alcohol regularly, and indeed a way to name the phenomenon.

The opiodergic system doesn't describe behaviour any more than gravity does. Stimulating the opiodergic system provokes a wish to repeat the activity. Gravity provokes a need to put a roof over our heads to protect from stuff falling, to put things down rather than up. That's not describing behaviour, that's describing conditions for behaviour.

Auferre, trucidare, rapere, falsis nominibus imperium; atque, ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Tue Jul 15th, 2008 at 02:51:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So you will conclude that the creation of the Requiem by W.A. Mozart was only a chemical process. And that Mozart was genetically programmed to write it...

"Ne te courbe que pour aimer..." René Char
by Melanchthon on Tue Jul 15th, 2008 at 07:32:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Requiems have a tendency to be linked to the ends of chemical processes...

Auferre, trucidare, rapere, falsis nominibus imperium; atque, ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Tue Jul 15th, 2008 at 08:27:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No. Of course not. What I am saying is that W.A. Mozart's  learning process, which lead to the Requiem, was enabled by the particular protein-making capabilities of his DNA and thus 'coloured' all that he experienced.

Mozart had billions of neurons in his brain when he was born. That brain experienced 99.99 % noise at birth (or total synestheisa). How the noise turned into signal - how we all turn noise into signal - is by the connecting of those neurons into pathways and networks. How are those networks created? By hardwiring, induced by the presence of biochemicals and their interfacing with neuronal receptors. These receptors trigger different processes. In the case of endorphins, new connections are made between 'neighbouring' neurons that are firing at the time.

How much endorphins are released in response to stimulii (or are present - heroin is an external molecule that happens to fit into endorphin receptors), depends on DNA, INTERACTING with the networks already in place. Internally produced biochemicals are not limitless in supply - they have to be made. GABA, for instance, (Gamma-aminobutyric acid) powers the inhibitory neurons that regulate the 'excitability' of the mammalian CNS. GABA, a neurotransmitter) is 'manufactured' while you sleep. Sleeplessness or a genetic disruption to GABA manufacturing can lead to movement and anxiety disorders, epilepsy, schizophrenia, and addiction.

This is just one of a thousand examples of how genetic predisposition (OR behaviour like not sleeping) can alter behavioural pathways - temporarily or longterm. I am not trying to ignore the complexity of these biochemical relationships. But....

Learning CANNOT exist without biochemicals. Behaviour CANNOT exist without biochemicals. And thus, I assume, the fact that we individually have' factories' that comparatively are more efficient or less efficient at producing these biochemicals than another individual, gives them some role, yes, even in the Requiem.

Sociobiology is about whether the DNA that produces those factories might be similar enough in closely related members of a group to lead to similar behaviour = group behaviour. Obviously the sensual environment of the group (including the existing culture) would have to be very similar, and the biochemical gender and age differences taken into account. (Puberty being the biggest personality-changing trip most people ever experience). I don't think it is a subject to be dismissed by flippant remarks about Mozart, mon ami ;-)

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Jul 15th, 2008 at 09:50:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Learning CANNOT exist without biochemicals. Behaviour CANNOT exist without biochemicals.

Considering the fact that we are made of biochemical components, everything we do "cannot exist without biochemicals", but this is a tautology.

There are many causality chains that converge to produce a given behaviour. Some of them are biochemical or genetic, that doesn't mean they are the main causes.

I cannot go somewhere by car without a functioning engine, that doesn't mean it's the engine that determines the destination of my trip...  

"Ne te courbe que pour aimer..." René Char

by Melanchthon on Tue Jul 15th, 2008 at 11:34:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Precisely. And though mechanical or computer analogies are every limited, I think you would agree that a functioning engine limits the possible destinations to a 1000 km radius, on roads, not up inclines of greater than 45, not underwater, past houses and not through them, in the air etc etc. and that your ultimate destination might be influenced by these limitations. The sense of freedom a car gives is an illusion. It depends on infrastructure.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Jul 15th, 2008 at 12:26:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Proposing an idea heretical to many evolutionary biologists is one of the smaller skirmishes Dr. Wilson has set off. In his 1998 book "Consilience," he proposed that many human activities, from economics to morality, needed to be temporarily removed from the hands of the reigning specialists and given to biologists to work out a proper evolutionary foundation.

Same old naturalistic fallacy.

Sigh. While Wilson is still picking fights within his own area of expertise as to how evolutionary mechanisms really work, he wants to start dictating morality.

Excellent fairness and balance in the NYT article, by the way. Casting Wilson as an innnocent (perplexed!) seeker of truth - who by the way wants to dictate what is moral - and smearing Gould and Lewontin as marxist ideologues. As Gould wrote:

I grew up in a family with a tradition of participation in campaigns for social justice, and I was active, as a student, in the civil rights movement at a time of great excitement and success in the early 1960s. Scholars are often wary of citing such committments. ...[but] it is dangerous for a scholar even to imagine that he might attain complete neutrality, for then one stops being vigilant about personal preferences and their influences - and then one truly falls victim to the dictates of prejudice. Objectivity must be operationally defined as fair treatment of data, not absence of preference.

See the wiki on Evolutionary psychology controversy for more.
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Tue Jul 15th, 2008 at 05:51:35 AM EST
Good diary, Sven.

I always thought that E. O. Wilson got dismissed on grounds that had little to do with what he was trying to say.  This was especially painful as Stephen J. Gould and his column, "This View of Life" in Natural History magazine was the chief reason i subscribed to that periodical for so long.  It seemed to me that he was being accused of reductionism by critics who were themselves reducing his arguments to terms far more simplistic than those he had employed.

The frame seems to be that it must either be genetic or it must be nurture that accounts for the majority of our individual make-up.  It seems to me that it must be both genetic and cultural in order for evolution to have occurred.  Wilson takes an even more complex position when he notes that evolution acts at many levels, including the individual and the group.  He also proposes that the distinct evolutionary processes occurring in the levels of the group and the individual themselves interact.

Wilson is very well respected within his specialty of entomology.  Much, possibly most, of the complexity he describes he had observed in social insects.  Proposing an unnecessary level of complexity is a violation of Occam's Razor--make no unnecessary assumptions.  Denying demonstrable complexity is itself reductionism.  Purely on a level of meta analysis, if such complexity can be shown to emerge in organisms with nervous systems as simple as ants, it is hard to imagine that they would not also apply to humans.  With us, the very reason for the existence of much of our brains is to enable complex social interactions.  

 

If sanity be culturally normative, then by the norms of this culture I claim insanity.

by ARGeezer (argeezer a in a circle yahoo dot com) on Tue Jul 15th, 2008 at 11:00:16 AM EST
Thanks Geeezer, I probably represent a more extreme heretical  view in that I see self-organization is a very deep process in all life, and one that can introduce many interesting questions into how we see ourselves - after the fact ;-)

The nature v nurture debate has a long history, and I agree with you that the gestalt of all this complexity is that both play a part. And they interact.

What I try to illuminate is that understanding the self-organization of the brain, and how that leads to mind, is no threat to past, present and future Mozarts. But I would like that understanding to help reduce the terrible things that we humans do to each other.

And thanks for you support - I am often quite lonely when I bring this subject up with the alpha males ;-)

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Jul 15th, 2008 at 11:27:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I am often quite lonely when I bring this subject up with the alpha males

Oh, come on!

"Ne te courbe que pour aimer..." René Char

by Melanchthon on Tue Jul 15th, 2008 at 11:42:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You forgot the smilie in that quote.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Jul 15th, 2008 at 12:27:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The smilie wouldn't fit into the frame, no doubt.

If sanity be culturally normative, then by the norms of this culture I claim insanity.
by ARGeezer (argeezer a in a circle yahoo dot com) on Tue Jul 15th, 2008 at 12:35:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No need to thank me.  I am just grateful for your insightful and graceful presence on this site.  I don't choose to frame the dialog in terms of gender.  I prefer frames such as personality, temperament and attitude, though these do tend to sort unequally by gender, but also by academic discipline--"hard" sciences vs. "soft" sciences. Confirmation by repeatable experiments is great for the physical sciences but is often monstrous when misapplied to social sciences where the experiment is with peoples lives.

Fortunately, the sort of evidence traditionally accepted  in the "hard" sciences is starting to emerge in current Brain Science work.  It is increasingly possible to form  testable hypothesies regarding  brain function and obtain confirmatory or disconfirmatory evidence with techniques such as PET scans that will show which areas "light up" under which conditions.  Should be interesting for us in the next few years.

If sanity be culturally normative, then by the norms of this culture I claim insanity.

by ARGeezer (argeezer a in a circle yahoo dot com) on Tue Jul 15th, 2008 at 12:51:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The nature vs. nurture debate is largely useless. Especially as it is usually rendered: innate biological traits vs. cultural influences. The view of interaction between the two is also largely useless. First we bifurcate and then we say: both of these distinct factors play a role. When in fact there are more than those two 'factors', and they are moreover not distinct as concrete factors but rather represent different qualities of reality. So we have in fact not moved beyond the initial fallacy.

What we need is transcendence of the entire issue.

Spotted while searching the ET archives, this is a good example of transcendence (interesting thread & post, too).

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Tue Jul 15th, 2008 at 01:27:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
OTOH, if one demonstrates cultural behaviors that develop to exploit environmental resources and then demonstrate genetic change over a population that facilitates that behavior, I think one could reasonably argue that there is an interaction between cultural change and genetic change within populations, be they insect or primate. This sort of behavioral/genetic interaction seems necessary to explain the development and increasing complexity of our brain and how it interacts with our environment.  

I believe that this view does transcend the old nature/nurture controversy and agree that it is now  a pointless debate.  My sense is that behavioral/genetic interaction approach underlies a lot of current research and can often generate testable hypothesies.  Ann Fausto-Sterling's approach also transcends older frames and is, I believe, consistent with, if not an example of what I am describing.  

Unfortunately, old frames such as nature-nurture unavoidably pop up in our minds unbidden if we have had significant prior experience with them.  Only by putting them into conscious awareness can we choose more appropriate frames.

If sanity be culturally normative, then by the norms of this culture I claim insanity.

by ARGeezer (argeezer a in a circle yahoo dot com) on Tue Jul 15th, 2008 at 03:25:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
results.  The worst part is, biologists think they are discovering the truth, when all they are doing is projecting their own ignorance.  Very medieval, so to speak.  

I am so bored with "what part of the brain lights up (under the scan)"!  I don't say this has no use--Actually, that is part of the problem:  The mind control people are finding plenty of uses.  

It just isn't that helpful if you want to do good things rather than evil ones.  

by Gaianne on Tue Jul 15th, 2008 at 06:34:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The mind control people are finding plenty of uses.

Sadly, in coercive applications it does have the potential to be a superior lie detector at least.  The dark side is always with us.  But these techniques have also provided empirical evidence of functional assemblages of various areas of the brain involved in specific tasks. That is something that can't be done from dead brains and anatomy.  

If sanity be culturally normative, then by the norms of this culture I claim insanity.

by ARGeezer (argeezer a in a circle yahoo dot com) on Tue Jul 15th, 2008 at 08:39:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
For perspective, see Lewontin's early response to Sociobiology.  

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake
by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Wed Jul 16th, 2008 at 08:40:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Very interesting, and by far the strongest critique of Wilson I have seen.  I bought the book around the time of its publication, but other events in my life prevented me from doing more than skimming some of it.  Nor was I watching much TV, other than classic movies with W.C. Fields, Clark Gable, etc. with the wife as relaxation. Is this paper a transcript of a conference?

I do know that anthropologists for whom I had respect discouraged any consideration of the work.  One of my quirks is a tendency to attempt to find diamonds in dung hills, especially when the dung hill was created by critics hurling it at some shunned individual.  Perhaps an over reaction to my reading of Thomas Kuhn.  There is no substitute for careful investigation of such an issue.

If sanity be culturally normative, then by the norms of this culture I claim insanity.

by ARGeezer (argeezer a in a circle yahoo dot com) on Wed Jul 16th, 2008 at 10:44:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You know my take.. genetic behavior evolution is nonsense... if one knows how to do some math you realize it is stupid..

social-group evolution through biological changes is another thing.. it can not be rejected easily and it can not be demonstrated easily... we just need more data..

on the other hand.. cultural evolution is so clear and obvious and with so many data that social-cohesive grup evolution with a direct biological footprint will always seem small... which does nto mean irrlevant.. we just need more data for data.. and ants are really interesting...

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Tue Jul 15th, 2008 at 01:10:29 PM EST
genetic behavior evolution is nonsense...

How does that not exclude social-group evolution? Would you have some concrete examples?

by Nomad on Tue Jul 15th, 2008 at 01:43:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sure.

By genetic behavior evolution I mean that it is impossible to encode a very sepcific complex behavior in genes with a brain inthe middle. That's impossible.

But you can certainly encode huge and large structures.. this is.. if you can produce social-group changes that affect large areas of the brain , then you could in principle encode them at the genetic level.

How this would be done? no idea (this is why more research is needed)..But it has to be necessarily a strong social-group pressure.. otherwise I do not see why to change huge structures without strong pressure (but I could certainly be wrong..and systematic and medium pressure would be enough)

plus the informations has not to be necessariy encoded in your genes.  It could be encoded elsewhere.

let me go to the other side of behavior and give you an example of a very simple behavior... your friends cells get stressed and literally decide to get more internal stress changin their actin-myosin structture.. and they want to communicate this to you, poor isolated cell.. and you want to learn to detect that your neighbors are stressed so taht you do as your friends do.

Now think, that this new behavior has nto be necessarily encoded ina new gene or ina new change int he genetic material. It could be encoded (at least if it is a very very very simple behavior) in the activation of a sub network of and already genetico-proteic network. It should be a very simple mechanism-behavior but it could work.

As an example thing of a network already existing that makes a cell change its stress-strain relation through the detection of a partiuclar chemichal. The cell with the old beahvior would have this activation pathway as highly unlikely sicne it is genrally blocked by the presence of another inhibotry protein.. . just imagine that this blocking protein inthe medium disappears (cahnges morphology or something similar) at the same time you have the new chemichal. the end results would be a new simple behavior learnt throguh changes in the protein aspects of the network.

this last structure cna certainly be reinforce.. and subsequent changes int he network can further help... evnetually it oculd also be encoded in your genes by making more often the new protein.. or just it could be that no.. it is better to leave the genes as it were and leace the pathway open...

There are a lot of people thinking more or less along these lines in the evo-devo community...given the huge ammount of similar genes producing basic network modularity...

Better to keep ana daptatible network and only encode very very useful genral structures... do in your cell as in your brain... encode general structures but not particular...

ANd frankly, those guys made a lot of sense to me (but I am biased because I like this way of looking at things...I also realize that they need a lot  and a a lot and a bunch more set of experiments).

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Tue Jul 15th, 2008 at 06:04:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
the social structures--social knowledge--of elephants.  The information is not encoded in their genes, it is carried in their communities (and is lost when those communities are decimated).  

We are such firm believers in the Jurassic Park fallacy--that if we just had strands of that old dinosaur DNA and good cloning techniques we could bring the dinosaurs back.  

We can't:  We know nothing about their context, and that is essential.  

This has a name:  Scientific Reductionism.  Still alive and well after a century of error.  Has much in common with Market Economics.  I doubt we'll ever get rid of it.  It is too useful (for purposes of hidden agendas) to get rid of just because it is wrong.  

by Gaianne on Tue Jul 15th, 2008 at 06:42:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Absolutely dead on... it could certainly be that ants have this social encoding as elephants do....

and yes... genes only carry the generic structure information.... so it is not at all clear what would happen if you replicate a jurassic park (if you just replicate one dino the normal answer would be that the animal dies).

Besides I like your wording of "fallacy", I think it is the exact, correct and precise word.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Wed Jul 16th, 2008 at 06:04:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Perhaps you could offer a theory then, that could explain the proven synesthetic mathematical abilities of some autistic people?

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Jul 15th, 2008 at 02:18:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well I can give you the standard explanation.. not mine.

Not all autistic people have better mathematical abilities, some do, others do not. the same goes for different abilities.. some autistic have it some autistic hav enot.

The truth is that in schizofrenia and in autistic people we know almost nothing.. well nothing I would say...

but the standard theory is that a very serious connectivity malfucntioning is ocurring (in both cases, autistic and schizofrenia)...

this is why genetic factors could appear although they are not clear at all, and in schizofrenia, in partiuclar, they are known to be less relevant that "cultural stress causation" (in all cultures, schizofrenia happens overwhelmingly just after the "stress period".. in western societies is post-adolescence, in other cultures is just after adulthood rithuals.. and in westerns subgroups it cna be certainly pointed to this time.)

I am afraid, nobody knows, but any huge, new ability should be explained in terms of serious global connectivity problems that could be encoded in the genes. But we do not know if the lack of global connectivity is directly encoded in the genes or the effects are indirect through other pathways.. and the lack of plasticity is due to toehr biological or enviromental factor.s

We just do not know... but it is considered as known that genes can only affect general brain structures. Some people defend that they can also encode very general (global) biochemical pathways. But I have never seen clear proof of this (trough it is in theory posible). And certainly they can not encode the plasticity in the brain.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Tue Jul 15th, 2008 at 06:14:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If I recall Gould's argument correctly, he proposed that traits that were originally selected for one purpose and were present in a population could be employed in a novel manner by some individuals.  Should this confer survival benefits the trait would be genetically conserved . In vertebrates capable of culture the associated behavior could be culturally transmitted and/or elaborated.  Obviously cultural adaptation can proceed much faster than genetic adaptation, although I am not sure he ever endorsed that view.  I am reaching back 20-30 years here. I do recall he was quite keen on the possibility of rather rapid genetic adaptation in small populations under great stress.  Punctuated Equilibrium.

If sanity be culturally normative, then by the norms of this culture I claim insanity.
by ARGeezer (argeezer a in a circle yahoo dot com) on Tue Jul 15th, 2008 at 03:43:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The encoding can not happen in the brain.. genes olnly can only encode very general brain traits and big structures...

So  a very strong process must appear to select a large scale brain function.. that's why soical-group gene encoding is possible but particular traits preservation is impossible. Those traits can not be encoded in  genes.. it is a matter of counting neural links and genetic information... the earth has not enough genertic information in all species during all tiem to encode my nerual connections.. actually you would need like a thousand earths if I remeber correctly but it is easy to do, it is basic math once youknow the number of neurons and the average ratio of connectivity....

And we are not getting into those studies with slugs showing that it could be proteins plus connection the ones encoding.. then genes is just a billion times more hopless.

Genral traits beahbior is has always been and always been encoded symbolically in the basic mthycal structures learnt by the brain while it is developing.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Tue Jul 15th, 2008 at 05:46:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The encoding can not happen in the brain.. genes olnly can only encode very general brain traits and big structures...

Agreed.  The genetic code is not a blank sheet upon which behaviors can be written.  That concept is absurd.

But we got from the first primates to where we are somehow.  At present the best explanation I know is that it involved genetic changes fostering increased size and complexity and environmentally adaptive behaviors that took advantage of these genetic changes, iterate. I do not know how else to account for what we now know about brain structure and organization as it applies to language aquisition and use.  

I agree with Sven that emergent behaviors in such complex structures played a role.  I am open to other theories.  To me the technical advances that allow visualization of brain activity and elucidation of brain structure are some of the most exciting science going.  Within my life, (20-30yrs), I expect to see a much better understanding, hopefully within the next ten years or so.

If sanity be culturally normative, then by the norms of this culture I claim insanity.

by ARGeezer (argeezer a in a circle yahoo dot com) on Tue Jul 15th, 2008 at 06:13:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There is the theory of network adaptability... which can explain a lot of intermdiate adaptations...

The question about how to fix those adapatabilities in new fixed genetic structures is a well-known mistery :) But it is not unique to the brain, it also happens in symmetric embrio breaking and in a bunch of organs... how this adapatative network appears and suddenly can get fixed in a very few set of genes which describe only the basic structure??

So, let me point out that it is not only a problem in the brain .. it is a problem for almost any organ if the evo-devo are right (and they seem to be.. although  they culd be wrong, of course)

As you may guess I do not know more than you on this je jejej I wish I would... Nobel Prize wait for me!!!
But, your explnation does not ring true/complete to me.. no mechanism, no how involved.... I am physicist by training so I just come back to the I/we do not know :) Let's wait.. :)

A pleasure


I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Tue Jul 15th, 2008 at 06:20:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Agreed.  The whole problem of the modulation and control of ontogeny is a separate but related rapidly developing field.

If sanity be culturally normative, then by the norms of this culture I claim insanity.
by ARGeezer (argeezer a in a circle yahoo dot com) on Tue Jul 15th, 2008 at 08:49:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Jej jej.. I think we have read more or less the same papers :)

A pleasure


I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Wed Jul 16th, 2008 at 06:06:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A series of articles (Olivia Judson's blog in the NYT) that some of you may be interested to read:

Darwinmania

An original confession

Let's get rid of Darwinism

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Wed Jul 16th, 2008 at 07:43:07 AM EST
I've been tending more and more to the view that people are not terribly bright animals with delusions of infinite personal freedom.

Most of history can be reduced to fighting and fucking. Occasionally a bit of art and science falls out, but it's likely to be way outside of the norm, and produced by exceptionally rare individuals who show an exceptionally rare aptitude combined with exceptionally rare training.

Even then, art is a useful signifier of status for its patrons and of exceptional cognitive and motor skills for its creators. It doesn't exist as something which is magically separate from the culture it appears from. Likewise for science, which from the inside is as Darwinian a discipline as any other. If you have money and power, you can create exceptional art and science to order by rounding up and hot-housing the rare individuals who are talented enough to make an original contribution. But most people aren't Einstein or Mozart. Most people not only lack their talents, usually they don't even have any interest in their talents.

What makes human culture unique is that it persists across generations and - to some extent - becomes self-sustaining and externalised. This makes it possible for Mozart and Einstein to be remembered. Without that externalisation process humans would have to relearn to survive in their environment just as animals do. There's not a lot of evidence to suggest that without externalised culture any of us would act differently to animals.

Culture is plastic to some extent, but not infinitely so. No matter how sophisticated people believe themselves to be, certain triggers will create certain responses on demand. The range of possible behaviours varies between individuals and seems to be partly genetic, with expression moderated or enhanced by culture. But the repertoire of human behaviours is really not that wide, and even basic predictive thinking is still rare enough to be exceptional.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Wed Jul 16th, 2008 at 09:22:37 AM EST
As usual - good original insight

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Wed Jul 16th, 2008 at 09:49:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If the concept of race is problematic, the notion of intelligence is equally so. Intelligence has never been properly defined, no one knows what IQ tests actually measure, and we are only beginning to identify the genes underlying the myriad attributes that collectively give rise to intelligence. Even if we were to ignore such fundamental issues, however, there remain considerable empirical problems in linking race and intelligence. For a start, there has over the past century been a dramatic rise in IQ scores - the so-called "Flynn effect". Results from every major IQ test, in every age range and in every modern industrialised country, show a continuous and roughly linear increase of about three IQ points per decade from the earliest days of testing to the present - something that clearly cannot be explained in genetic terms and which therefore raises questions about the biological relationship between race and intelligence.

from here

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.

by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Wed Jul 16th, 2008 at 10:27:31 AM EST
Humans process stimuli on a continuum: purely stimulus/response to months of consideration before reacting.  The reaction, considered in total, itself occurs on a complex continuum easiestly described as a Fuzzy Scale from No Action through Life Changing.

From the moment the sperm hits the ova, DNA starts whipping through its/their repertoire creating the conditions for Emergent Behavior leading to higher order processes, functions, and states until - should everything go right - a fully functional human being is created after about 20 years, or so.  Each 'jump' in Complexity subsumes the steps before (mostly) in that prior stages keep doing 'Their Thing' while controlling/contributing to higher levels and stages with the possibility of contributing/controlling lower levels and stages as well.

Looking at this, for a second ....

A phrenome comes wafting through the air, hits the nose, is input processed by the brain, shunted to various nuclei, which trigger along neural pathways to the temporal lobe, where an emotion/cognitive process is invoked resulting in a "Holy Cow!" reaction, leading to a decision to engage in conversation, leading to a date, leading to falling in love, leading to marriage.

Our little bio-chemical - purely physical, almost purely stimulus/response - has led to a cultural practice:  getting married.

It works the same way in the other direction:  high order cognitive, culturally based, input can lead to the 'programming' of purely bio-chemical processes -- stress at work to the overproduction of digestive chemicals in the gut.

Or not.  The exact response to any stimulus ultimately rests on the precise state of Body-Mind of the individual during the specific instance qualified by the overall totality of the individual Body-Mind.

(And how's THAT for weasel-wording!  ;-)

Realistically, simplistic reductionism such as "DNA done it" isn't an explanation.  "DNA done it" explains everything and something that explains everything explains nothing.  Ok, in the crudest sense "DNA done it" is "explanatory" as the only time DNA processing stops in a human body is when a person is dead.  

And dead people don't do much.

Not only does the privileging of physical processes (DNA) leads to over simplification it makes testing the thesis impossible.  Unless one can find two or more individuals with the exact same DNA raised in completely different cultures.  Twin studies goes some way to resolving the first problem but, to my knowledge, there have never been a statistically valid study of twins born in one culture and raised in completely different cultures.  

Until we have such studies this discussion must be based on Deduction -- with all the inherent problems of such.


Och nu den svenska kocken bakar en Alaskan älg jägare. Bork! Bork! Bork!

by ATinNM on Wed Jul 16th, 2008 at 12:43:04 PM EST


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