European Tribune

Wednesday Open Thread

by afew
Wed Jul 30th, 2008 at 10:02:03 AM EST

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On into the dog days..!

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Jul 30th, 2008 at 10:04:12 AM EST
Spain to cut speed limit in bid to reduce oil imports
By Graham Keeley, The Guardian

Spain has launched an ambitious plan to reduce energy consumption and save millions of euros on oil imports by cutting the speed limit to 50mph and handing out millions of low-energy use light bulbs.

With the introduction of a broad swathe of measures between now and 2014, Spain's socialist government hopes to reduce Spain's oil imports by 10% per year, cutting consumption by 44m barrels and saving €4.14bn (£3.25bn).

During the country's sweltering summers, air conditioning systems in public buildings will be set no lower than 26C (79F). In winter, Spaniards will be allowed to turn the heating no higher than 21C (70F), with hospitals being the only exception.

Street lighting is to be reduced by up to 50% and the metro system in many cities will stay open later at weekends to encourage people to leave the cars at home. The government is also to introduce a pilot project for the manufacture of 1m electric or hybrid cars.

All Spanish government vehicles are to meet at least 20% of their energy needs through biofuels.

And in an unprecedented move, commercial airlines will be able to use military air routes to make journeys 20% shorter. The comes after Ryanair and easyJet announced they are to cut routes to Spain, blaming rising fuel costs.

by Magnifico on Wed Jul 30th, 2008 at 10:57:29 AM EST
All good ideas, even tho introducing an air fuel tax would be the best idea of the lot, although fair play to the journo who noted the shorter routes coincided more with the airlines pulling out than with the rise in prices.

A bit later now but they could also encourage a return to better heat insulated buildings that need less A/C in summer and heating in winter. All of those big concrete and/or glass towers so beloved of corporate megalomaniacs and swanky architects.

How about a tax break on ground effect heating ? Or on solar heating panels ? I've been around S Spain a lot and don't see much evidence of the latter and I know the installation costs of the former are pretty steep.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Jul 30th, 2008 at 11:06:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I was wondering what Spain is going to do about cooling computer server rooms? Most buildings are horribly designed for keeping a lot of computers cool during hot summer days, even in the winter here in the U.S. many companies spending money to keep running air conditioners to keep server rooms cool while spending money to keep the rest of the building warm for the people. It's a really dumb model that could easily be solved through better building design, I think.
by Magnifico on Wed Jul 30th, 2008 at 11:47:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I guess they work on the principle that server rooms are only a small part of the overall energy cost of a building. Nobody has huge processor floors like the ones I knew 10 years ago in banks (do they ?).

But architects never really take working costs into account, else they'd never use so much glass. Bold, award-winning designs are not green and frugal.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Jul 30th, 2008 at 11:54:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't know, recently I was running 15 times as many processors in a server room as I was ten years ago (Not counting switches and other networking gear which had also massively increased)

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Wed Jul 30th, 2008 at 12:13:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
My experience with architects is that, absent a direct mandate from the owner, they see space for electrical and electronic equipment as something to be minimized to the extent possible.  They all pay homage to "Form follows Function" but it is the exceptional architect that follows that dictum.  It is all about visual aesthetics.  I have thought that they should be required to go around campus for a semester in blindfolds in order to learn to appreciate non visual perception.  Perhaps they should also spend a year in classes without heating, ventilation and air conditioning, trying to keep their CAD stations running.

If sanity be culturally normative, then by the norms of this culture I claim insanity.
by ARGeezer (argeezer a in a circle yahoo dot com) on Wed Jul 30th, 2008 at 02:17:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It has been reported that the CIO is usually unaware of these costs because they are not billed separately for the server rooms. Energy costs per area are one to two orders of magnitude higher than for normal office space, mostly so for cooling.

Server rooms have been reported to consume up to 2% of the energy worldwide, rapidly increasing, and about as much as the aviation.

by Humbug (mailklammeraffeschultedivisstrackepunktde) on Wed Jul 30th, 2008 at 01:14:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sealed buildings are an epic design failure, perhaps even worse than SUVs.

Back in my hardcore nerd college days, I lived in an apartment with two other guys. Our dining room was used as a computer room with eight computers and other electronic components. Even in the dead of the frigid Minnesota winter, we usually had the windows in the dining room open during the evening.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Wed Jul 30th, 2008 at 04:10:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sealed buildings are an epic design failure...

Aren't sealed buildings, when discussing heating and cooling for humans, a good idea? Don't they increase energy efficiency by helping maintain the warmth or coolness?

It strikes me that the "epic design failure" is not sealed buildings, but not taking into account the massive amount of heat generated by computer equipment and trying to retrofit computer farms into buildings that were not designed to warehouse machines generating that much heat (and consuming that much electricity).

by Magnifico on Wed Jul 30th, 2008 at 04:20:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sealed buildings - as in can't open windows when the weather conditions warrant - are an epic design failure.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Wed Jul 30th, 2008 at 06:06:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sealed buildings lead to Sick Building Syndrome.

Building occupants complain of symptoms such as:

    * Headache
    * Eye, nose, or throat irritation
    * Dry cough; dry or itchy skin
    * Dizziness and nausea
    * Difficulty in concentrating
    * Fatigue
    * Sensitivity to odors
    * Increased incidence of asthma attacks/appearance of asthma in non-asthmatics
    * Personality changes such as rage/weeping/paranoia/depression
    * Putative cases of bronchitis or pneumonia which do not respond to antibiotic treatment
    * Symptoms resembling Irritable Bowel Syndrome (IBS)

This is a shortened list, as over 50 possible symptoms are known. It is possible for a dozen sick occupants to report a surprising array of individual symptoms which may be dismissed as unconnected. The key to discovery is the increased incidence of illnesses in general with onset or exacerbation within a fairly close time frame - usually within a period of weeks. Some sources will insist that for SBS to exist, these symptoms must disappear soon after the occupants go outside. However, this view discounts the lingering effects of various neurotoxins, which may not clear up when the occupant leaves the building. In particularly sensitive individuals, the potential for long-term health effects cannot be overlooked.



Och nu den svenska kocken bakar en Alaskan älg jägare. Bonk! Bonk! Bonk!
by ATinNM on Wed Jul 30th, 2008 at 09:27:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, that Graham Keely in Barcelona got the important details right this time, at least.  It's a little sketchy in how Sebastian drew direct connections of each measure to saving oil, money, pollution and creating jobs by following them.

And I only heard him say it would help the country, not use the JFK quote.

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. --Charu Saxena.

by metavision on Wed Jul 30th, 2008 at 06:16:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
My modem died yesterday afternoon. I am impressed by the service of the provider. They send me a new one, even better model, without me having to pay anything for it, except for the express mail fee.
by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 30th, 2008 at 11:53:00 AM EST
That's Frantastic news!

Good to see that your down time was not prolonged.

by Magnifico on Wed Jul 30th, 2008 at 11:54:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
thanks, it sure is a strange feeling not being able to access the internet. It is different if it is my choice do avoid, than not being able too.
by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 30th, 2008 at 12:00:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
welcome back, afew did a fine job, but it's not the same.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Jul 30th, 2008 at 11:55:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks, Helen. Just skimmed the Salon and it sure looks like afew did a good job, lively discussion.

Okay now I have to go out, Yoga class, but I will be back for tonights Salon. :-)

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 30th, 2008 at 12:02:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sexual harassment okay as it ensures humans breed, Russian judge rules

A Russian advertising executive who sued her boss for sexual harassment lost her case after a judge ruled that employers were obliged to make passes at female staff to ensure the survival of the human race.

By Adrian Blomfield in Moscow, The Telegraph

The unnamed executive, a 22-year-old from St Petersburg, had been hoping to become only the third woman in Russia's history to bring a successful sexual harassment action against a male employer.

She alleged she had been locked out of her office after she refused to have intimate relations with her 47-year-old boss.

"He always demanded that female workers signalled to him with their eyes that they desperately wanted to be laid on the boardroom table as soon as he gave the word," she earlier told the court. "I didn't realise at first that he wasn't speaking metaphorically."

The judge said he threw out the case not through lack of evidence but because the employer had acted gallantly rather than criminally.

"If we had no sexual harassment we would have no children," the judge ruled.

Since Soviet times, sexual harassment in Russia has become an accepted part of life in the office, work place and university lecture room.

[Torygraph Alert]

by Magnifico on Wed Jul 30th, 2008 at 11:56:32 AM EST
I would not be shocked at this, but where are the links to the orig. news source & surveys?  Anyone?  

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."
by poemless on Wed Jul 30th, 2008 at 12:10:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Wed Jul 30th, 2008 at 01:03:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No - I meant to this particular story.

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."
by poemless on Wed Jul 30th, 2008 at 01:23:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Turkey's ruling party escapes ban

Turkey's Constitutional Court has decided not to ban the ruling AK Party, accused of undermining the country's secular system.

But the judges did cut half the AKP's treasury funding for this year.

The AKP, which won a huge poll victory last year, denies it wants to create an Islamist state by stealth. It called the case an attack on democracy.

The powerful military sees itself as the guardian of the modern secular state founded by Mustafa Kemal Ataturk.

Court president Hasim Kilic said the financial sanctions imposed on the AKP were a "serious warning".

At least seven of the 11 court judges would need to vote in favour for the party to be banned. But six judges wanted a ban and five did not want to do so.

So a pretty close call...

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Wed Jul 30th, 2008 at 12:25:37 PM EST
Maybe they looked into the abyss where the seventh seal vote would send them and decided a warning notice was sufficient.

I've given up speculating on what turkey will do and how it will develop. Too many competing factions, few of whom have the country's best interests at heart. They may claim they do, they might even believe it, but I'm not sure there's any concensus on what sort of country Turkey wants to be, and even if there was, there are a lot of people powerful and determined enough to prevent whatever it is from happening

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Jul 30th, 2008 at 04:49:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So Gallup has apparently admitted that they were deliberately manipulating their likely-voter model -- the one used for polls commissioned by the right-wing USAToday -- to generate stronger performance for McCain.

Imagine that.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Wed Jul 30th, 2008 at 12:49:47 PM EST
Next up, the tradmed discover their barbecue bias.

Followed soon after by revelations about wild bear's personal habits

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Jul 30th, 2008 at 02:17:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'll go one better on you: John McCain wears $520 shoes.

But at least he doesn't get $400 haircuts, right?

Right?

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Wed Jul 30th, 2008 at 03:15:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Even better, they're Italian shoes.  That's, like, even worse than Fred Thompson.

Why does John McCain hate America?

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Wed Jul 30th, 2008 at 03:22:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't get it, what is wrong with Italian shoes? Italy had troops in Iraq and the people of Italy just recently admitted their mistake they did by throwing Berlusconi out of office and reelected Berlusconi.
If the US president only has to wear Italian shoes for the support of Italy in international affairs, I would say, it is a cheap price.

Lich King/Caribou Barbie 08
Pain brings Katharsis
by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Wed Jul 30th, 2008 at 05:39:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What support? Berlusconi still hasn't sent the troops back to Iraq....
by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Thu Jul 31st, 2008 at 04:39:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Drew, I'm guessing we've just seen the breakthrough you asked about.

They are panicking.  I'd love to see the GOP's internal polling numbers but they can't be good.  

Obama is controlling the campaign, the news cycles, and the frame in which this election is going down.  When McCain tries to break out he only makes an ass of himself.

Polling Report has Obama 51 to McCain 44 with 4% Undecided.  Jeebus.  The O-man is beginning to walk away with this.

I'm changing my percentages to:

Obama win 60%
Obama landslide 30%
McCain win 10%

because I think this is the week historians will point to when answering the question, "When did Obama win the 2008 Presidential election?"

Och nu den svenska kocken bakar en Alaskan älg jägare. Bonk! Bonk! Bonk!

by ATinNM on Thu Jul 31st, 2008 at 02:05:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
BBC NEWS | World | Middle East | Israeli PM to quit in two months

Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert has announced he will stand down two months from now, as soon as his Kadima party chooses a new leader.

He defended his record in office, especially his work to strengthen the armed forces, when he spoke to reporters in Jerusalem.



Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Wed Jul 30th, 2008 at 01:32:44 PM EST
Does it make a difference which right-wing militarist supremacist takes over ? The chances of somebody who genuinely wants peace ever running israel is so close to zero as to be mathematically inseparable from it

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Jul 30th, 2008 at 05:15:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Republicans have opened up their expected attack line on Obama, as Josh Marshall writes.

Talking Points Memo | Keeping Track

I note with interest today, John McCain's new tactic of associating Barack Obama with oversexed and/or promiscuous young white women. (See today's new ad and this from yesterday.) Presumably, a la Harold Ford 2006, this will be one of those strategies that will be a matter of deep dispute during the campaign and later treated as transparent and obvious once the campaign is concluded.

My guess is that this backfires on McCain. As I wrote last January.

nanne:

I think it's highly likely that they're going to try to pin some sex scandal on Obama, probably related to porn and/or prostitution, possibly actual, possibly in his past, if they go all-out, related to an underage girl -- in a big, big way. The promiscuous black male image is very powerful in the US. That's how they sank Harold Ford's senate run in '06. Still, I don't see them doing this if McCain runs, or Huckabee, because those candidates will get a big dent in their image themselves if they or their surrogates go that sleazily negative.

Next up: Obama touched my daughter at the campaign rally, angry millworker says.

FOX news asks: Is Obama too tight with his teen fans?

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Wed Jul 30th, 2008 at 02:48:27 PM EST
I see this more as a 527 swift-boat manoeuvre than something directly associated with the McCain "campaign".

But with the recent examples of the tramed stepping away form the corporate line and pointing out in the full light of day that the republicans are lying, I think the Obama camp can just lump it all in with existing fabrications and send a back channel communication to McCain suggesting his own life ain't so squeaky clean he can afford this to continue.

But the fact is that McCain is falling apart in front of everybody. I'm sure that's the real reason the TM are stepping away, they don't want to go down with the wreck. It's not just the polls, McCain doesn't know his own policies, he blatantly contradicts himself one day to the next. As someone said, it's charming the first couple of times and then you begin to wonder if he really understands what he's doing. He's being called time after time on his voting record (or lack of), especially on women's reproductive rights where McCain is really behind the curve.

And this is happening on the tv. However much Faux or CNN try to edit his words to help him out, his confusions and evasions are right there in people's living rooms, and they're noticing.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Jul 30th, 2008 at 03:12:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Is anyone alive around here?  Where is everyone?  I have a question.  Can some brilliant person explain to me this stupid Mechel business?  It's annoying the hell out of me.  For people who have no idea what I am talking about, here's what happened:  There's a mining/steel company that Putin has accused of tax evasion/price fixing.  This gave everyone the Yukos heebeejeebees.  Moreover, the fellow running the company called in sick to this meeting with Putin, and Putin responded by saying, "if you're sick, you're sick.  But if you don't get well asap, I'm going to have to send in a doctor to take care of your problems."  Ok, it sounds a little godfathery.  Anyway, next thing, the Russian stock market practically crashes and everyone's running around like chickens with their heads chopped off.  Screaming "Yukos!" and deciding Russia's a terrible place to invest.  

First off, capitalism is a pretty effed up system when a market can almost crash on someone's interpretation of the words of one individual in regards to one company.  I mean, do you really want a stock market that could send the whole economy reeling because rich people who are probably bilking the little people get a case of the heebeejeebees?  Sounds rather moronic to me.  Isn't this a symptom of Anglo-disease or something?  Secondly, if someone's screwing up, why shouldn't they be called out on it?  The alternative seems to be  some situation in which everyone lets everyone get away with murder because targeting corruption might give people the heebeejeebees, causing the market to crash.  Is there some market that works to encourage accountability and reform, not that works against these things?  Hell, I really have no idea if Putin said that because he wants those taxes so he can feed the starving children of Tomsk or if he did so to signal some intention of a govt. takeover.  But who cares?  Maybe -here's a brilliant idea, if you really wanted to stand up to Putin, you could ignore him.  Thirdly, why would doing what was done to Yukos to Mechel be a bad thing for the country, for the Russian people?  I mean, from what I can tell, the average Russian is glad to have people like Misha behind bars.  Sick of the robber barons, but tolerant of those who at least bother to share the wealth.  Fourthly, why is this all Putin's fault and not the company that was probably screwing up on some level (all companies probably do until they get caught) or the guy who called in sick to the meeting in which Putin was going to take him to task?  No one saw this coming?  

Here's my terribly ill-informed opinion:  Free marketers are whiny freaking idiots.  That's right.  They reserve the right to behave with total lack of responsibility or accountability.  Any government interference is oppression.  YET, they expect, demand, that the government opperate with responsibility & accountability.  B.S.  It's not even an ideology, is it?  It's a game where the rules are, "the rules apply to everyone but me."  FWIW, that may be the official Kremlin ideology too - I don't know.  But you can't have it both ways, can you?  You can't declare yourself unbeholden to gov't regulation or meddling or audits or investigation or opinion or whatever, and then throw a fit when the gov't doesn't seem to be beholden to you!  You can't (supposedly) break anti-monopoly laws and then get all grave and moralizing when (supposedly) the gov't begins acting like a monopoly.  Hypocrisy.  Also, isn't it ridiculous to complain of authoritarianism and then base all your decisions on the actions of this authoritarian?  I mean, aren't you just feeding that fire?  If he says, "Don't even make me call the doctor" and you run off and sell all of your stocks out of fear, aren't you implicitly banking on this authoritarianism?  Kinda lame.  Did your mothers not teach you that business about sticks & stones?  Or are you selling stocks as some kind of threat?  "If you don't let us get away with this, we'll make your stock market crash."  "Don't make me call the Dr.!"  "Don't make me take my money elsewhere!"  I don't think any of this has to do with democracy ro human rights or authoritarianism as it does a buch of obscenely wealthy people acting like siblings in the backseat during a road trip.  "Mom!  He's on my side of the seat!"  "Mom!  She won't share the gummy bears!"  

Robert Amsterdam writes,

"We are dealing with some very fundamental questions of what happens when power is left unchecked by law, and then takes an interest in the markets."

Of course he's talking about governmental power.  When the power of private corporations is left unchecked by law, and then takes an interest in the markets, it's called a "free market."  Christ.

...

BTW, Great pic of VVP.

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."

by poemless on Wed Jul 30th, 2008 at 03:50:47 PM EST

First off, capitalism is a pretty effed up system when a market can almost crash on someone's interpretation of the words of one individual in regards to one company.  I mean, do you really want a stock market that could send the whole economy reeling because rich people who are probably bilking the little people get a case of the heebeejeebees?

Well, this is not exactly "one individual". This is a guy who has the power to convert his words into actual action detrimental to companies, as demonstrated in the past.

So he's saying that he might send the tax inspectors onto the company, and they can bankrupt it, so suddenly the shares of that company are suddenly worth a lot less, because there is suddenly a pretty high probability that they might be worthless.


Fourthly, why is this all Putin's fault and not the company that was probably screwing up on some level (all companies probably do until they get caught) or the guy who called in sick to the meeting in which Putin was going to take him to task?  No one saw this coming?

Markets react to new information. That companies do that and might be caught is already priced in, in the abstract (with, say, a statistical probability of 5 or 10 or whatever %). But if certainly one company is designated as a fraudster, than the probability for this particular company to have to pay extra taxes or worse suddenly becomes a lot higher, and thus its market cap falls. Markets react to new information, and more precisely to the unexpected difference between facts whn they come up and the expectations prior to the fact. Thus the sometimes strange reactions when a company announces big profits and its stock plummets: it's just that markets were expecting more (and were at prices that reflected that "more")


Free marketers are whiny freaking idiots.  That's right.  They reserve the right to behave with total lack of responsibility or accountability.  Any government interference is oppression.  YET, they expect, demand, that the government opperate with responsibility & accountability.  B.S.  It's not even an ideology, is it?  It's a game where the rules are, "the rules apply to everyone but me."

Yep.


 Thirdly, why would doing what was done to Yukos to Mechel be a bad thing for the country, for the Russian people?

The market does not care about what's good for the country or for the people, it only cares about how much money can be made from owning a share of a company.


 When the power of private corporations is left unchecked by law, and then takes an interest in the markets, it's called a "free market."  

Yep. The Anglo Disease in a nutshell.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Wed Jul 30th, 2008 at 04:27:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The market seems like a terrible idea.  Is there a way we can conduct societies without markets?  Just get rid of all of them?  Isn't it the priveledged gambling at the expense of the people, at the end of the day?

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."
by poemless on Wed Jul 30th, 2008 at 04:33:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
poemless:
Is there a way we can conduct societies without markets?  J

I think it's possible to have a market economy without "profits".

In fact, I think that such an economy is a logical and inevitable consequence of the direct connections of the Internet.

And from there, maybe in a generation or two, we may move to a "gift economy".

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Wed Jul 30th, 2008 at 05:57:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, a market economy without profit is probably how we started out after we stopped being hunter gatherers. That was barter, then some bright spark invented money as a unit of exchange in complex barter societies.

I don't think profit itself is the problem, anymore than a market economy is a problem, or even share-capitalism is a problem. The problem in all of these systems is 3rd party parasitism, and the extent to which the they encourage this aspect to the detriment of the original trade.

My view is that anglo-disease is about prioritising 3rd party parasitism to the extent that it became the main focus of all trading and the actual transactors were bled to death.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Jul 30th, 2008 at 06:06:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Helen:
then some bright spark invented money as a unit of exchange in complex barter societies.

What money achieved was not so much a "unit of exchange" but a "split barter" transaction with a time delay between the two parts of a barter transaction.

While a value unit or  unit of exchange is implicit as a reference in a monetary transaction, it need not be money.

Wherever you have a barter system (eg the Swiss WIR or a proprietary system, like Bartercard) with built in credit, then the result is a monetary system.

Helen:

The problem in all of these systems is 3rd party parasitism

"Profit" and "share capitalism" are integral to Anglo Disease "finance capitalism" and constitute an unnecessary overlay on the "real" productive economy.

The key point about a "Peer to Peer" economy is that the "3rd party parasites" are cut out, or "dis-intermediated" in the jargon, and with them go not only "for profit" share capitalism, but also credit intermediaries aka banks as middlemen......

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Wed Jul 30th, 2008 at 07:07:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, a market economy without profit is probably how we started out after we stopped being hunter gatherers. That was barter, then some bright spark invented money as a unit of exchange in complex barter societies.

There's not much to prove that. Early agricultural societies were at least as likely to depend on gift economies, some sorts of centralised planning, or plunder, as means of economic organisation and exchange. The narrative of the inevitability of barter then currencies is just a narrative.

Auferre, trucidare, rapere, falsis nominibus imperium; atque, ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Wed Jul 30th, 2008 at 08:17:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Is there a market of some sort in Communist countries?  

I don't have a problem, nec. with profits.  It's profits made by gambling and what is done with those profits I have a serious issue with.  

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."

by poemless on Wed Jul 30th, 2008 at 06:11:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Personally I have no idea, but the Stock Market thing is interesting.

From what you've written it's less about competing ideas of authoritarianism because I think there is an idea amongst the Russian plutocracy that, Yukos aside, there really is no restraint upon their corporate behaviour and Vlad the Putin remains indulgent so long as they render a little bit unto Caeser. however, seems as tho' Vlad's been reading Machiavelli's The Prince, where you would see this behaviour, this capricious behaviour described as a very necessary essence of Statecraft.

""it is best to be both feared and loved; however, if one cannot be both it is better to be feared than loved."


keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Jul 30th, 2008 at 04:33:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Is anyone alive around here?  Where is everyone?

Seems like most everyone is all off on holiday and forgot to arrange for broadband on the beach.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Jul 30th, 2008 at 04:43:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
great rant!
i think it's all about trust.

on a village level, it's easier to finger the criminals, the ones who can't resist gambling with others' funds.

scaled up to the insane level it is now, it's a lot harder.

and now 'trust' has become 'consumer confidence', same diff.

Peace is not the absence of war -- peace is the absence of fear. Ursula Franklin

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Wed Jul 30th, 2008 at 07:28:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
McCain on Larry King (quoted from Crooks and Liars)
King asked McCain what he'd do, as president, if he learned that bin Laden was in Pakistan, and he had a choice to send in U.S. forces after him. McCain replied, "Larry, I'm not going to go there and here's why, because Pakistan is a sovereign nation.... But I want to assure you I will get Osama bin Laden as president of the United States and I will bring him to justice no matter what it takes."
Needless to say, Larry King did not ask him whether Afghanistan, Iraq, and Iran are also sovereign nations.
by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Wed Jul 30th, 2008 at 04:18:42 PM EST

I will get Osama bin Laden as president of the United States


In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Wed Jul 30th, 2008 at 04:19:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
well it's good to see that Osama has at least one vote.

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Wed Jul 30th, 2008 at 06:40:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The imagery is ... interesting

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Wed Jul 30th, 2008 at 04:18:58 PM EST
I'd suggest that's a european reaction, which is a big tell on who's advising McCain.

That reminded me more of the million man marches. What does it say to americans ? Washington or Nuremberg ? I'd say the former.

He says he approves it. But that's today. Will he still love it tomorrow ? Will he still remember it tomorrow ?

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Jul 30th, 2008 at 04:38:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Who's advising McCain.  No kidding.  

My snarky response to Jerome is, if it was intentional, McCain's ready to give up the one vote he has securely in the bag: the Nazi skinheads.

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."

by poemless on Wed Jul 30th, 2008 at 04:41:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Nazi skinheads voting? Surely not...?
by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Wed Jul 30th, 2008 at 05:52:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Come spend a few days in the rural South.  I assure you: They vote.  Especially when the other guy on the ballot is a black dude named Barack Obama.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Wed Jul 30th, 2008 at 06:20:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Are you being sarcastic?  How do you think people like Jesse Helms and David Duke get elected?  

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."
by poemless on Wed Jul 30th, 2008 at 06:25:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'll grant you Duke (since Louisiana is such a lost cause), but give some credit to North Carolinians.  It seems they might join the rest of us in the 21st Century this year.  They're at least putting in some effort to make up for Helms.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Wed Jul 30th, 2008 at 06:40:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
McCain apparently never got the memo that you're supposed to do the "I'm (candidate's name), and I approved this message" at the beginning of the ad when it's an attack ad.  That way people forget about it you approving it by the end.

It'll drive up his own negatives.  And I'm not sure how two hundred thousand screaming people will make Obama look bad.

Also, you're always supposed to show video of your opponent in black and white in attack ads.

Again, incompetent.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Wed Jul 30th, 2008 at 06:25:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If you show anything in black and white its just going to remind them of pictures like This and that will just instantly bring up an association with your own candidate.

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Wed Jul 30th, 2008 at 06:34:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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