European Tribune - The Councils of Europe

The Councils of Europe

by DoDo
Thu Jul 10th, 2008 at 06:40:44 AM EST

In this diary, I am asking you to dig up and contrast three names in your mother tongue. And ask you whether you are/were aware of them all separately.

For context: in a discussion in the 9 July Salon, we discussed the three institutions that, confusingly, all have Europe and Council in their names:

Council of Europe: a human rights watchdog and convention, encompassing all states of the European continent except Belarus, residing in Strasbourg (just next to the European Parliament);
Council [of the European Union]: one of the three main institutions of the EU, the one representing its intergovernmental character. It manifests itself by the meetings of the ministers of national governments for the appropiate issue.
European Council: originally the Council of the EU when meeting in the composition of the heads of states and governments, twice (later four times) a year. But, even before being institutionalized, it became the most powerful organ of the EU. It was recognised as separate from the Council of the EU with the Maastricht Treaty (1993), and would become a recognised EU institution with the Lisbon Treaty. (We helped to stop Bliar from becoming the President of this one.)

Promoted by Colman

Now, how confusing is this in other languages?

I can start with German and Hungarian.

In German, the CoE and the EC are even easier to confise, as the word order is the same, only an inflexion makes the difference:

Europarat
Rat [der Europäischen Union]
Europäische Rat

In Hungarian, the second has a more sensible name (e.g. Ministerial Council), but the CoE-EC difference reduces to a single letter(!) from German:

Európa Tanács
[Miniszteri] Tanács (or Minisztertanács)
Európai Tanács

So, how confusing are these three names in your languages? And how confused are you about the institutions they describe?

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The Councils of Europe | 27 comments (27 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

Notice Me Tip Jar (4.00 / 7)

....and then I didn't mention acronyms, which in Hungarian would be the same for the Council of Europe, the European Council - and the Constitution-drafting European Convent...

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Wed Jul 9th, 2008 at 06:25:59 PM EST

Re: Notice Me Tip Jar (4.00 / 2)

You should consider becoming a European Counselor - i.e. someone who counsels people who suffer from euroconfusion. This is a distinct role to that of Eurocounselor - someone who offers to mind your money for you... I get a bit disorientated myself when mig starts going on about the pillars of the EU. I worry that some Samson will bring them all tumbling down. Of course :Lisbon was going to simplify all that - in 300 pages. Argh...

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Wed Jul 9th, 2008 at 07:12:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Notice Me Tip Jar (none / 1)

Of course :Lisbon was going to simplify all that - in 300 pages. Argh...

Of course not. First of all, the "constututional" part is only 55 articles in 34 pages. Second of all, Lisbon codifies the distinction between the Council configuration of heads of state and government and the European Council and makes the latter a separate institution, as well as renaming the Council of the European Union to simply the Council.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jul 10th, 2008 at 03:08:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Notice Me Tip Jar (none / 1)

My mistake... It appears the Lisbon treaty abolishes the Council Configuration of Heads of State or Government... I'd have to check whether the few places where this is mention in Nice are all carried over explicitly mentioning the European Council.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jul 10th, 2008 at 03:13:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Notice Me Tip Jar (4.00 / 2)

Treaty of Lisbon

AMENDMENTS TO THE TREATY ON EUROPEAN UNION AND TO THE TREATY ESTABLISHING THE EUROPEAN COMMUNITY
Article 1
...
9) Article 7 shall be amended as follows:
...
(c) in paragraph 2, the words `The Council, meeting in the composition of the Heads of State or Government and acting by unanimity' shall be replaced by `The European Council, acting by unanimity' and the words `the government of the Member State in question' shall be replaced by `the Member State in question';

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Thu Jul 10th, 2008 at 03:42:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Councils of Europe (none / 1)

In greek:

Συμβούλιο της Ευρώπης
Συμβούλιο της Ευρωπαϊκής Ένωσης
Ευρωπαϊκό Συμβούλιο

The first is very distinct in my mind. The other two I wasn't sure whether they were different incarnations of the same body - the fact that the European Council's site is a subsite of the Council of the European Union doesn't help, BTW. I'd say that fewer than 1 in 10 Greeks knows that the first body is different from the other two, and I'd reckon that less than one in one hundred Greeks are aware of any difference between the second and the third .

IMHO they should name the big one -third- the European Grand Council or something.

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake

by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Wed Jul 9th, 2008 at 07:34:05 PM EST

Re: The Councils of Europe (none / 0)

In French:

le Conseil de l'Europe
le Conseil de l'Union Européenne
le Conseil Européen

The Conseil de l'Union Européenne is also confusingly referred to as simply le Conseil.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Jul 10th, 2008 at 01:53:52 AM EST

Re: The Councils of Europe (none / 0)

The Conseil de l'Union Européenne is also confusingly referred to as simply le Conseil.

That is a new usage and the short form replaces the long form officially in the Lisbon Treaty.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jul 10th, 2008 at 03:09:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Councils of Europe (none / 1)

Actually, no. I find the short form in the treaties themselves back to Maastricht at least, ditto for the Commission.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Thu Jul 10th, 2008 at 03:59:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Spanish (none / 1)

Consejo de Europa
Consejo de la Unión Europea or Consejo
Consejo europeo

I doubt people realise or use them consistently - the press is liable to mix them up sometimes.

As I said in the open thread, I only recently realised that the Council "configuration of heads of state and government" was actually a separate institution from the European Council though the two consist of exactly the same people.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jul 10th, 2008 at 03:05:31 AM EST

Dutch (4.00 / 2)

Raad van Europa
Raad van de Europese Unie
Europese Raad

And yes, I had to check this shortly as I forget which name belongs to which institution (also a function of not using Dutch much in discussing Europe). I do know the difference between the institutions themselves. But then again, I took multiple courses on European law and politics, which makes me rather non-representative.

I think part of the difference could be cleared by calling the European Council the EU Summit. Which makes it clearer what it is. Medium-information people are marginally used to the 'summit' name (as in G8 Summit, Millenium Summit, Earth Summit...).

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Thu Jul 10th, 2008 at 03:34:27 AM EST

Re: Dutch (none / 0)

The press already calls it "The EU Summit" sometimes.

Maybe "The Council" could be renamed "the [EU] Council of Ministers", too.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jul 10th, 2008 at 05:49:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

An additional source of confusion (none / 1)

in Strasbourg for a long time was the fact that the European Parliament was using the building of the Council of Europe. Now a new building has been built, so this has disappeared, but a number of CoE institutions still exist, are in the same neighborhood and are often mistaken as EU institutions.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Thu Jul 10th, 2008 at 06:16:19 AM EST

Re: An additional source of confusion (none / 0)

Naturally, since they all use the same flag.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jul 10th, 2008 at 06:18:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: An additional source of confusion (4.00 / 4)

I live within the EU permanently, and would like to attain citizenship, so i follow EU issues as closely as i can. Particularly here on ET. That there is so much discussion and debate over arcane differences in what at least on the surface seem to be overlapping structural entities is confusing.

It is this babel which has undermined the public's perception of the EU as far as i can tell. If the public was actually aware of what the EU was, i'd bet opposition would drop off dramatically. Perhaps Lisbon did not quite go far enough in streamlining the decades long, iceberg slow move to defining a European democracy.

I do think one of ET's strengths is bringing to light the complexities of the EU as it now exists, and pointing to areas which need more transparency. And this observer truly appreciates the effort.

Skennah Kowa

by Crazy Horse on Thu Jul 10th, 2008 at 06:37:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: An additional source of confusion (4.00 / 5)

Ah, yes, but attempting to streamline anything will be met with crise of "They're stealing our precious power!".

At least sceptics should be honest: they don't want a more streamlined, more democratic EU, because they don't want any Europe at all.

by Dagonz on Thu Jul 10th, 2008 at 07:58:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: An additional source of confusion (4.00 / 3)

It is this babel which has undermined the public's perception of the EU as far as i can tell. If the public was actually aware of what the EU was, i'd bet opposition would drop off dramatically.

amen

i had read the first bunch of comments, sighing at how much i had to still learn, my gorge almost rising at the sheer gobbleygook factor, it might as well be all greek, i was thinking, then the next comment was from talos, with the names in greek, lol!

i am amazed at some people here's tenacity and curiosity, i'm light years behind, but appreciate so much all your bulldog determination to crack the layers of cryptification.

odd image of trying to read the encyclopedia britannica upside down in a dark room, wearing shades, with a migraine building, and some high-decibel fracas down in the street below...

shine dat light, we'll ferret out every weasel weeviling in every little dark corner, rinse out the institution with salt and vinegar, and reboot the bugger.

Peace is not the absence of war -- peace is the absence of fear. Ursula Franklin

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Thu Jul 10th, 2008 at 08:21:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Councils of Europe (4.00 / 3)

Here are the official websites (in all the official languages)

Council of Europe

The Council of the European Union

European Council

"Ne te courbe que pour aimer..." René Char

by Melanchthon on Thu Jul 10th, 2008 at 08:48:50 AM EST

Re: The Councils of Europe (4.00 / 2)

D'oh!

And I see the Council's official name in Hungarian got in line with that in other languages... (Az Európai Únió Tanácsa)

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Thu Jul 10th, 2008 at 10:00:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Gaeilge (4.00 / 6)

As best as I can ascertain:

Council of Europe: Comhairle na hEorpa

Council [of the European Union]: Comhairle [an Aontais Eorpaigh]

European Council: Chomhairle Eorpach

by ectoraige on Thu Jul 10th, 2008 at 09:51:38 AM EST

Re: Gaeilge (none / 1)

Welcome to European Tribune, ectoraige!

"Ne te courbe que pour aimer..." René Char

by Melanchthon on Thu Jul 10th, 2008 at 12:00:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Gaeilge (none / 1)

Thank you kindly. I'll likely return to lurking however; it's warmer and cosier.

by ectoraige on Thu Jul 10th, 2008 at 12:32:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Gaeilge (4.00 / 4)

Please don't! We need your input!

"Ne te courbe que pour aimer..." René Char

by Melanchthon on Thu Jul 10th, 2008 at 12:53:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Councils of Europe (4.00 / 2)

In the Danish press, the former is reasonably distinct from the latter two - it's called Europarådet.

The latter two are conflated so routinely that I wasn't even aware that there were two separate bodies until I read this diary (and I'm still hazy on the distinction - from their websites it sounds very much like it's the same people meeting at the same time in the same rooms discussing the same things...).

The latter two are usually both called Ministerrådet (lit. "The Council of Ministers") and their meetings are sometimes called Topmøde (lit. "Summit") and sometimes Ministerrådsmøde (lit. Meeting of the Council of Ministers).

- Jake

Ceterum censeo Chicago esse delendam

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Fri Jul 11th, 2008 at 05:00:22 AM EST

Re: The Councils of Europe (none / 0)

The European Council (the meeting of Presidents and PMs), too, was called Ministerrådet!? Can you find an archived article on the Copenhagen Summit of December 2002, to check usage?

According to the official sites linked by Melanchton, the Council (of the European Union[/of Ministers]) is now called Rådet for Den Europæiske Union, while the European Council is Det Europæiske Råd.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Fri Jul 11th, 2008 at 05:25:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Councils of Europe (none / 1)

Well, if you google anything with Topmøde and København you get buried in hype for the Climate Summit next year and a lot of other summits that are apparently more interesting than a session of the Council, but I did find this. It's from the police's labour union, so it's not exactly "official press," but I think it's close enough for corporate work. And they call the Summit a ministerrådsmøde.

I think a lot of the confusion is due to the fact that the Danish head of government is a statsminister (minister of state, prime minister) - so it seems natural to call a meeting of all the EU statsministre a meeting of ministers.

Assuming, of course, you forget the fact that there are lots of heads of governments that aren't, in fact, prime ministers, but presidents, chancellors, etc. But newsies apparently assume that their audience can't understand the distinction between a head of government and a prime minister, so the plural of "Head of Government" in Danish news very frequently becomes "PMs" - as in "the PMs of Germany, Italy and France met yesterday and discussed something."

- Jake

Ceterum censeo Chicago esse delendam

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sat Jul 12th, 2008 at 01:18:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Councils of Europe (none / 1)

It seems we are lucky all European languages make the distinction between an adjective and a nominal complement, or the translations would get quite hard to make...

Auferre, trucidare, rapere, falsis nominibus imperium; atque, ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Fri Jul 11th, 2008 at 07:31:51 AM EST

The Councils of Europe | 27 comments (27 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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