European Salon de News, Discussion et Klatsch - 29. August

by Fran
Thu Aug 28th, 2008 at 04:15:21 PM EST

On this date in history:

1844 - Edward Carpenter, an English socialist poet, anthologist, early gay activist and socialist philosopher, was born. (d. 1929)

More here and video


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EUROPE
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Aug 28th, 2008 at 04:15:00 PM EST
OK. About West media (quoted here extensively) again...

German weekly in propaganda row over Ossetia conflict
Europe's largest news magazine has been accused of propaganda by one of its own staff, who says it refused to publish pictures showing the devastation left by the Georgian military in South Ossetia. The photographer believes that the liberal German weekly Spiegel made a political decision to ignore the images as part of a pro-American stance on the conflict.

Pavel Kassin has been working for the weekly since 1990 and has never before had any problems getting his photographs published.

Last week, he and his German colleague Uwe Klussman, employed by Spiegel's Moscow bureau, were sent to South Ossetia to report on the aftermath of the war.

On his return, Pavel sent 29 pictures to the magazine's Hamburg HQ - but was shocked to find that none of them appeared in the latest issue released on Monday.

Kassin was so angry he gave an interview to the Russian daily Izvestia.

"Could it be that the most liberal, democratic and independent magazine has gone down the road of ideological one-sided propaganda?" he said. "In my view this is one of the rare cases when Spiegel has taken a pro-American stance."

In the last three issues Spiegel has given extensive coverage to the war in the Caucasus, but only a few articles have dealt with the situation in South Ossetia.

The rest have shown Georgia as a `martyr' suffering from `Russian aggression'. Most images featured ruined houses in the Georgian town of Gori and crushed military ships in the port of Poti.

Meanwhile, the South Ossetian capital Tskhinval, which suffered 12 hours of bombing by the Georgian military, is shown like a city living an ordinary life.

Most photographs were by correspondents of the world's leading news agencies. The weekly has also used several pictures by Russian photographers from Reuters and AP.

This year Spiegel has seen changes in its top management. Its long-time editor-in-chief Stefan Aust was replaced by two new chief editors.


by vbo on Thu Aug 28th, 2008 at 09:05:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
by vbo on Thu Aug 28th, 2008 at 09:06:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's one of those issues where you wouldn't be surprised if such a thing happened, but you'd be disappointed if it did.

Even the BBC hitched rides with the russians to see what was happening in S Ossetia. They seemed to get good co-operation from the russians too. That said I can't deny there was a pro-georgian bias in the reporting, so stuff from the russian side was downplayed as georgia got its media act together.

What has been fascinating to me is the changes in the narrative in diverse media. The BBC is following the Government/white House line pretty strongly now. I was surprised when Medvedev gave them an interview cos that's just Obama going on Fox.

But the print media, more specifically the Guardian and the independent have been all over the place. Starting off pro-Georgia and then gradually realising they got conned.

the Guardian is now very hostile to the Ukraine joining in and has criticised the Polish missile agreements. But when they go after Milliband's exhibitionism I don't know if that's tied to a rational internationalist stance or merely anti-milliband propaganda coming from Gordon Brown trying to discredit a rival.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 05:38:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
http://exiledonline.com/

See, while America's auto sales have gone into a nosedive, Russia just surpassed Germany to become the largest automobile market in Europe this year. Russians bought as many cars in the first six months of 2008 as they did in the entire last year, 1.65 million to be exact. The luxury category has posted the biggest growth, adding hundreds of thousands of uber-expesive automobiles to Russia's decrepit roads.  
by vbo on Thu Aug 28th, 2008 at 09:48:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Is there a special Mercedes version, perhaps with larger diameter tires and a higher suspension, sold in Russia? In Africa in the 1970s there were lots of Peugeot and Mercedes cars set up for poor road conditions...
by asdf on Thu Aug 28th, 2008 at 10:59:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I imagine the VW Tuareg and Porche Cayenne might fit the bill.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 05:40:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
... Germans send their gas money to Russia, the Russian upper class that gets the money buys their luxury cars. And so more money trickles upwards.

Nothing against the Gazprom, BMW, and Mercedes workers, but this is a poor model of economic development for both countries.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 07:34:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
German Detente Supporter Bahr Says Cooperate With Russia | Europe | Deutsche Welle | 28.08.2008
The West should be seeking to improve cooperation with Russia rather than getting agitated about Moscow's recognition of Abkhazia and South Ossetia, according to veteran Social Democratic politician Egon Bahr.

Bahr was Deputy Minister of the Chancellery under the then German Chancellor Willy Brandt and is acknowledged as playing a major role in Brandt's "Ostpolitik," which sought to normalize relations with Eastern European nations by rapprochement. DW-WORLD.DE spoke to Bahr about how the West should respond to Moscow in the wake of recent events in Georgia. 

 

DW-WORLD.DE: Russia has recognized South Ossetia and Abkhazia as independent states despite the warnings from the West. Is a new Cold War on the cards?

 

Egon Bahr: No, and there also wasn't any danger of that when Kosovo declared its independence. A fundamental principle of international order is that no state or group of states can split an internationally recognized country, such as Serbia, in that case, and Georgia, in this one. Kosovo has not become a member of the United Nations and neither will Abkhazia. Kosovo is recognized by around 40 nations -- 160 have not done so. The number of countries that recognize Abkhazia and South Ossetia is likely to be even lower. In principle, a new state can only become independent when the United Nations recognizes it as such.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 01:26:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Georgians stuck in limbo begin to lash out at Saakashvili - Europe, World - The Independent

Passing along the road to Tkviavi, the lush green fields, bountiful orchards and gentle slopes of the Caucasus foothills give off the air of a sleepy rural paradise. But the scorched earth and burnt-out shells of cars that litter the roadside are clues that all is not right here, and the silence gripping the town that two weeks ago had a population of 1,300 is eerie.

Tkviavi is the closest town inside Georgia "proper" to the border with South Ossetia and its capital, Tskhinvali. Its residents watched as Georgian troops poured up the road three weeks ago in their ill-fated push to regain South Ossetia, and they watched as the army fled, leaving their village undefended. Along with them went the young of the town, scared of counter-attacks. Only the elderly and sick remained.

Then, on 12 August, Russian jets bombed the village, destroying dozens of homes. For a week afterwards, the feared maradyori - marauding gangs of South Ossetians and other irregular militias - surged down the road from Tskhinvali in an orgy of looting, torching and killing.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 01:26:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Nothing like a splendid little war to shore up support for petty autocracy, and nothing like losing it to get rid of the autocrat.

(I still claim Cyprus is a more appropriate comparison to S. Ossetia than Kosovo)

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 02:31:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Bernhard on MoA has an interesting titbid!

Georgia Propaganda and the Next Step - Moon of Alabama

It is really funny how this works in the 'western' media.

Meanwhile some circles are building up an alternative to Saakashvili. Nino Burjanadze was a member of the Georgian parliament since 1995 with then president Eduard Shevardnadze's party. She later joined Saakashvili in the U.S. managed rose revolution. In April she split with Saakashvili and last month she left the parliament and opened her own think-tank, the 'Foundation for Democracy and Development' in Tbilisi. The U.S. and the Russian ambassadors took part in the inauguration.

When the British foreign minister went to Tbilisi on August 21, he had an hour long meeting with her. Yesterday she met with Joe Biden in Denver.

bold by me.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 09:33:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Background: Europe's Reliance on Russian Energy | Europe | Deutsche Welle | 28.08.2008
Europe is increasingly reliant on Russia to supply its oil and natural gas, giving Moscow immense leverage over those European capitals that use its power most.

What follows is a country-by-country breakdown of Russian energy imports provided by the International Energy Agency. The figures represent each country's share of Russian imports in total consumption (percent). They refer to 2006, the latest year available to date.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 01:34:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Germany and Russia threaten EU-Ukraine relations - EUobserver

EUOBSERVER / BRUSSELS - Germany's close relations with Russia are the main obstacle to signing a major EU-Ukraine treaty at the upcoming EU-Ukraine summit in France, Ukraine diplomats say, warning that failure to seal the deal will signal to Moscow that it can veto EU policy on post-Soviet states.

Independence Square, Kiev - the scene of the 2004 Orange Revolution, when Ukraine broke away from the Russian sphere.

"There are maybe two or three countries who are strong opposers, strong sceptics," Ukrainian deputy foreign minister Konstantin Yeliseyev said in Brussels on Thursday (28 August), commenting on EU reluctance to state clearly that "the future of Ukraine lies in the European Union" in the preamble to the new treaty.

"In this regard, we count very much on the leadership of Germany, which is the engine of EU integration and a very powerful country, we count very much on their courage," he added, saying EU explanations - such as lack of formal consensus among the 27 states or public enlargement fatigue - are "not sincere."

"Some other countries like Belgium are also opposed. But Berlin is the key," another Ukraine official said, with just 12 days left to go before the summit in Evian, France. "They are telling us the chancellory is talking to the foreign ministry and so forth, but no matter what they say, the real problem is Russia."

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 01:39:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Somebody is using Ukraine for very strange political manoeuvres...

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 02:29:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Property crash opens door to the new council house

Gordon Brown is set to usher in a new era of council housing by helping local authorities to buy repossessed and unsold properties. Cash and powers will be made available so that town halls can intervene in the housing market, The Times has learnt.

The measures - which could be announced as soon as Tuesday - will encourage councils and housing associations to offer struggling borrowers financial help in return for a stake in their homes or outright ownership. The number of council homes has plummeted since 1981 from 6.1 million to 2.5 million. Hundreds of millions of pounds of extra cash earmarked for social housing could now be released early to buy up newly built properties.

It is understood that town halls will also be encouraged to emulate Liverpool's local authority, which offers first-time buyers help with deposits in return for a small equity stake. Other options, including a stamp duty holiday, are being held back for further consideration

[Murdoch Alert]
by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 01:46:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, that's the worst, most expensive way to do it and cos of the cost it won't solve anything. We have a massive housing shortage in the UK. We need to builda lot of cheap homes for rent, not sale.

 Offer to take the property on at cost, not with profit. Then employ companies and builders directly on fixed price contracts to build homes for subsidized rent and build a lot of houses of the type needed in places where they are needed. Stop this rash of highly-proitable "executive housing", the large numbers of crappy flats for "buy-to-let".

build homes for people, for indidviduals and families on low incomes.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 05:48:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Close.

The key IMHO is to keep the land in public ownership, or take it into public ownership.

Builder/developers may be brought in as partners. They would invest an agreed profit margin, and any costs would be met by investors of risk capital, possibly from a constantly recycling pool of development credits.

Once a project is finished, long term investment in "Unitised" rentals would refinance the development credits, and allow the developers to realise any profits from their share of "Units".

The result is essentially a "Not for Profit" (but also "Not for Loss" ...! ) Real Estate Investment Trust.

Such partnership-based financing wipes the floor with conventional funding because:

(a) such "Community Equity" (within a partnership framework as opposed to the conventional "Equity" in a Company that makes the Private Sector "Private") involves no debt repayment: if investors want to release their Capital, they find buyers for their Units;

(b) "unitised" rents are;

(i) "affordable" - so more certain to be paid, and hence lower risk;

(ii) index-linked - so a lower return may be paid than when the return is non index-linked and eroded by inflation.

Modern conservatives engage in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy: the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.Galbraith

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 08:11:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In Europe, driving is a hard habit to break, even with gas at $10 a gallon - International Herald Tribune

ROME: Ten dollars a gallon may seem unthinkable to American drivers still smarting from the spike in gas prices to around $4 a gallon. But that was nearly the price that Marco Annarumi faced recently when filling his Jeep on his way home from work.

"It hasn't changed my driving at all -- not a bit -- I just have to work harder," he said with seeming indifference.

High oil prices and high taxes on gas pushed the average price of gasoline to new heights in much of Europe this summer. Yet transportation experts in this laboratory of sky-high fuel prices say that many Europeans, out of necessity, habit or love, have proved surprisingly willing to bear the extra cost of driving. That raises questions as to how effective high prices by themselves can be in achieving the ambitious targets for reducing carbon dioxide emissions that European leaders have committed themselves to meeting.

Gas prices have persuaded some people to drive less. Traffic on the Eurostar train that links London and Paris was up 21 percent in the first three months of 2008. Gas purchases in Italy dropped 10 percent compared with the year before. Sales of gas-guzzling sport utility vehicles have plunged across the continent, just as they have in the United States.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 02:02:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Who the fuck drives from London to Paris? Eurostar doesn't displace cars it displaces planes. Oh, it's the IHT. That explains it.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 02:04:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I got my Sept. 19-20 round trip for £94, virtually door to door...

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 02:28:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Umm, that'd be me. But I am going via Lyon and a couple of small inaccessible villages with a car full of english rations.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 05:50:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
aka: ye olde marmite run

"I freed thousands of slaves. I could have freed thousands more, if they had known they were slaves." -Harriet Tubman .
by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 04:40:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Which reminds me that I have to run down to the ethnic shopping street in Helsinki where our Indian friends understand the importance of Marmite and Horlicks ;-)

This i,s of course, empirical evidence ;-)

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 05:30:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Italians having difficulties giving up cars ?


Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 06:48:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Guardian:
Shadows in the sunshine
It is a tourist favourite and looks EU bound, but Croatia's attitude to its fascist past is troubling

Croatia is a "small country for a big vacation", as the ads tell you. But beyond the marketing and optimistic reports of millions of holidaymakers spending their "big vacation" there, there is less cheerful news, casting an unpleasant shadow over that small tourist paradise on the Adriatic.

This summer Dinko Sakic, the 86-year-old former commander of Jasenovac, the notorious second world war concentration camp, was buried in his Ustashe uniform, the Croatian equivalent of the Nazis. After the war, Sakic emigrated to Argentina but returned after Croatian independence in 1991. He was welcomed back like a celebrity. In his interviews, Sakic repeated that he regretted nothing. What Sakic should have repented was that tens of thousands of inmates in Jasenovac were murdered under his command. He also personally executed two Jewish prisoners. Franjo Tudjman's government showed no will to put Sakic on trial until Israel signalled it was perfectly willing to try him there. So in 1998, Sakic was sentenced to a maximum of 20 years. At his funeral a Dominican priest, Vjekoslav Lasic gave a speech in which he advised Croats to admire Sakic and to take him as an example.

by lychee on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 04:44:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Almost as worrying as Italy's attitude to their facist present.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 04:49:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
the velvet version is user-friendly....a prophylactic!

besides, they look great in their uniforms, like clark gable...

pre-fascism, with your fettucini

"I freed thousands of slaves. I could have freed thousands more, if they had known they were slaves." -Harriet Tubman .

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 04:44:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ho hum.

Maybe The West™ will wake up to the unsavoury side of Croatia's nationalism 10 to 15 years after they should have...

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 05:00:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well..."we told you so". That's why Serbs in Croatia did not want to stand under their Nazi flag.
Because they also remember Jasenovac...just from the other side of wire (those who were not murdered).
Croats never denied that they are proud of their Nazi past...never ever...especially not trough this war of 90ies.But you did not want to hear them. Western fairytale of good guys vs. bad guys would be spoiled.
by vbo on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 05:45:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Please tell us about the Chetnik, too...

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 05:53:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well to make long story short Chetnics originally were Serbian fighters (guerrilla) AGAINST Germans. And against communists (most of the time) all though they cooperated from time to time against Germans. Looks like they cooperated from time to time with enemy against communists too (not sure about this). Murky times...They were royalists.
After the war against Germans (and civil war at the same time) Tito had to make balance between nations in order to make "brotherhood and unity" alive. That's why our history books equalized Ustashe (Croats Nazi force) and Chetnics both as same evil. But they were nothing like same at all. Sorry I am not in a mood to write long posts at the moment so I'll copy/paste few things from Internet that I found relevant:

The Royal Serbian army, better known as "the chetnics", under the command of general Draza Mihailovic, saved a total number of 513 American pilots during WW2.
...General Draza was awarded the Legion of Merit for his heroic deeds.
...Legion of Merit is the highest USA decoration meant for foreign citizens for exceptional merits. Draza Mihailovic was decorated at the proposal of USA General Dwight Eisenhower.
...Hollywood even made a movie during WW2 about the Serbian chetnics, which are today portrayed as some sort of animals that bite off people's ears and stuff...
...He did indeed earn the Legion of Merit after the war, and it was indeed kept secret -- to avoid offending Tito's Yugoslavia.

Mind you most of these pilots were saved even after the Allies had made the decision to abandon supporting General Draza Mihailovic's Chetniks and switch to supporting Tito's Communist Partizans in late 1943, after the Chetniks had paved the way for a German defeat in Yugoslavia.
...in Serbia and Eastern Bosnia the Serbs fought against the Germans to the end.
...Tito, the half Croat/half Slovene, took enjoyment turning his Partizan army made up of at least 80% Serbs on fellow Serbian Chetniks. He didn't give a rat's arse about the Serbian population and this was proved by the fact that Croatian Ustashe run death camps especially in Jasenovac and Stara Gradiska were liberated by the Russian Red Army despite the fact that the Partizans were in a position to do so as the Ustashe at the end of 1944 were well and truly defeated and most of their troops fled towards Austria.

It's interesting that even Stalin supported Mihailovich up until 1943, and he switched to Tito later, in 1944. But Tito and the communist owe their power in Yugoslavia mainly to the support of Churchill and the British.
...Even though the Chetnics did cooperate with the Germans and the Italians from time to time (if there wasn't for the Italians and the partisans, Serbian population in Croatia would've been completely annihilated by the Croats), but that cooperation mainly came to agreements of non-attacking, or attacking the communists.
...After Tito completely took over, and after the war ended, the communists killed in cold blood thousands and thousands of "disloyal" Serbs who weren't communists.

Considering other nations living in Yugoslavia, almost all of them collaborated with the NAZI's. The Croats even created a Nazi satellite state NDH (the Independent state of Croatia) and conducted one of the worst ever genocide against the Serbian population, almost 1 million Serbs, according to some estimations.
...The Croats and the Muslims in Bosnia, later greatly supported by western countries during the latest wars, were members of the largest SS division Hitler ever had. It was called 13th Waffen Mountain Division of the SS Handschar (1st Croatian).
Quote:
The 13th Waffen Mountain Division of the SS Handschar (1st Croatian) was one of the thirty-eight divisions fielded as part of the Waffen-SS during World War II. It was the largest of the SS divisions, with 21,065 men at its peak[citation needed], composed almost entirely of non-German Muslim and Catholic recruits drawn from Bosnia. Handschar (Bosnian/Croatian: Handžar) was the local word for the Turkish scimitar (Arabic: Khanjar خنجر), a historical symbol of Bosnia and Islam. An image of the Handschar adorned the division's flag and coat of arms.

After the war, he (Mihajlovic) was tried and convicted of high treason by Yugoslav authorities, and was consequently executed by firing squad.
...However, Mihailović decided against active resistance, allegedly because of Serb losses in World War I, in which the Kingdom of Serbia lost a quarter of its male population to the war.[2] Instead, Mihailović gathered men and weapons in the easily defensible Serbian mountains, waiting for an Allied landing in the Balkans, upon which he could attack any Germans or Italians from behind. Mihailović discouraged sabotage due to German reprisals (such as more than 3,000 killed in Kraljevo and Kragujevac) unless some great gain could be accomplished; instead, he favored delayed sabotage that could not easily be traced.

And so on...

by vbo on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 09:36:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
vbo, maybe you should post this and some of your other comments as a diary! Would keep the information more neatly to gether and maybe make discussing it easier. :-)

And great to see you here on ET more often again!

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 09:41:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You are right! I hijacked the thread. Sorry!
by vbo on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 09:54:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No need to apologize - I just think your links and stuff would be diary worthy!!! :-)
by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 10:10:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
When she makes it a diary she should spend some time addressing
Throughout the War, the Chetnik movement remained relatively inactive against the occupation forces, and increasingly collaborated with the Axis, losing its international recognition as the Yugoslav resistance force. After a brief initial period of cooperation, the two factions quickly started fighting against each-other. Gradually, the Chetniks ended up primarily fighting the Partisans instead of the occupation forces, and started cooperating with the Axis in their struggle to destroy the resistance, receiving increasing amounts of logistical assistance (in particular, from Italy).
The same Wikipedia article includes allegations of ethnic cleansing as well as
During the Yugoslav wars, Serb paramilitaries often self-identified as Chetniks. Vojislav Šešelj's Serbian Radical Party formed the White Eagles which was identified as Chetniks. Vuk Drašković's Serbian Renewal Movement was closely associated with the Serbian Guard, which was also associated with Chetniks and monarchism.
and
In late 2004, the National Assembly of Serbia passed a new law that equalized the rights of the former Chetnik members with those of the former Partisans, including the right to war pensions. Rights were granted on the basis that both were anti-fascist movements that fought occupiers, and this formulation has entered the law. The vote was 176 for, 24 against and 4 abstained. The Socialist Party of Serbia (SPS) of Slobodan Milošević was the one voting against the decision.
and
Today Chetnik activity is seriously restricted or banned in all neighbouring countries other than Serbia and Republika Srpska in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Milorad Pupovac of the Independent Democratic Serbian Party in Croatia, has called the organization "fascist collaborators". In 2003, the Montenegrin government forbade the building of a statue of Pavle Đurišić near Berane.
For what it's worth...

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 10:53:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
boy, are you a source for motivation! :-)
by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 11:04:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, you were ready to take vbo's word that the Ustashe were fascist but not the Chetnik, who were patriots. They were both patriots, and fascist.

We have had discussions of similar Polish and Baltic factions in the past...

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 11:13:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, but I guess it would be more motivating to let her write her diary first and then discuss the counterarguments there. :-)
by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 11:37:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
They were both patriots, and fascist.

Well I don't think so. As I said looks like they did cooperate at some points with Germans and Italians against communists but they were far from fascists. Ideologically they were NO fascists.
As opposed to Ustashe that were WORSE then German fascists.Ideologically and in practice...
Would Americans give Legion of Merit to a fascist?
Looking at the present time...Well one never knows haha.
What your Croat friends have to say about Ustashe ?...I am curious...

by vbo on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 11:45:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Would Americans give Legion of Merit to a fascist?
Looking at the present time...Well one never knows haha.

Hey, it's well-documented that the Americans enlisted former Nazis to fight the Communists after WWII, so...

I never debated WWII with my Croatian friends, but I can tell you a large part of them had no patience for Tudjman.

Interestingly it tended to be either older people, or the girls my age. The boys my age (they were between 15 and 20 in the early 90's) were all gung-ho nationalists. Must be a side effect of the high testosterone levels.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 11:53:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Not quite sure how the Ustashe were worse than the Nazis. Unlike Migeru I wouldn't characterize the Chetniks as straight out fascist, more Franco style nationalist-conservative-authoritarian with fascist elements. But then some do see Franco as straight fascist.

Also you really shouldn't make the mistake of saying that because they fought against one set of fascists that somehow makes them non-fascist. The Polish fascist resistance group NSZ, for example, consistently fought the Nazis during the occupation, but they were very much fascists - more so actually than the Chetniks, and just as much as the Ustashe.

by MarekNYC on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 11:54:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Unlike Migeru I wouldn't characterize the Chetniks as straight out fascist, more Franco style nationalist-conservative-authoritarian with fascist elements. But then some do see Franco as straight fascist.

We have had this debate before, and I have conceded your point that Franco was a soft fascist.

But I'll still call him a fascist anyway even if it's not 100% accurate in political science terms.

Franco may not have been a fascist, but the CEDADE and the Falange were straight-out pascists, and he folded them into his National Movement.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 12:00:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Nationalist-conservative, yes, Chetnics were but I don't see them necessarily as fascists. I don't see them as racists for example...but then again who knows what would be the case if they managed to get in power. Ustashe managed (with a help of Hitler) to get in power and it was real practical fascism, racism...you name it. No other word for it and especially not patriots all tho they were patriotic in a way that they would do anything ( and I mean anything even go along with Hitler) for Croatia.
by vbo on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 12:21:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Racism was very central to German fascism, same goes for the French and the various East Central European ones. But that wasn't the case for the Italians and the Spaniards.  
by MarekNYC on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 12:47:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Not quite sure how the Ustashe were worse than the Nazis.

I meant for Serbs in WWII. Germans did terrible crimes (especially in revenge for killed German solders) but Ustashe wiped whole villages, whole families down to the baby in a cot in most horrific "manners". Plane evil...and Jasenovac will be for ever engraved in Serbian collective mind...never to be forgotten. Again it's a game with numbers but the numbers are huge one way or another...Have you seen movie "Occupation in 26 pictures"...Croatian director...made before these war.Try to find it and you may get a glimse of the picture about Ustashe
Well we can talk about it some other time. It'v well passed bad time here in Oz.
by vbo on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 12:38:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
During the Yugoslav wars, Serb paramilitaries often self-identified as Chetniks. Vojislav Šešelj's Serbian Radical Party formed the White Eagles which was identified as Chetniks. Vuk Drašković's Serbian Renewal Movement was closely associated with the Serbian Guard, which was also associated with Chetniks and monarchism.

Those who presented (or still present) their selves as Chetnics nowadays have absolutely nothing to do with real Chetnics organization that is actually non-existent nowadays. Some oldies may still live somewhere in exile but they are really old and totally out of touch with what is really happening on the Balkan. Sheshelj used them to get hold of their money representing him self as Chetnic (and he can't be farther then that).Similar thing is with Drashkovic. Those oldies finally realized those false Chetnics are only interested in their money and they do not want to have anything with those thieves.

In late 2004, the National Assembly of Serbia passed a new law that equalized the rights of the former Chetnik members with those of the former Partisans, including the right to war pensions. Rights were granted on the basis that both were anti-fascist movements that fought occupiers, and this formulation has entered the law. The vote was 176 for, 24 against and 4 abstained. The Socialist Party of Serbia (SPS) of Slobodan Milošević was the one voting against the decision.

This was done to finally finish "civil war" in Serbia between partisans and Chetnics. I believe it's right thing.Milosevics SPS are "partisans" that enjoyed all privilegies for decades.And they killed probably more Serbs (during and after WWII) then Germans did.Time to reconsile...
by vbo on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 12:02:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But Tito and the communist owe their power in Yugoslavia mainly to the support of Churchill and the British.

One of the conspiracy theories in Serbia during Tito's times was that Tito actually was British "agent". He never spoke language properly and had totally strange accent...nothing like Croat ...or even Russian...or Slav...
Why for the sake of God would Churchill give up on a royalist (our king and his family had asylum in GB at the time) and go support the communist???  Why Yugoslavia was allowed to say NO to Russia in 1948 and have it's own way ...Must be some fucking experiment agreed between British and Russian leaders...
by vbo on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 09:51:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm so tired of Tito conspiracy theories.

When talking to Croatian friends in the 90's they would accuse Yugoslavia of being a Serb supremacist device to destroy Croatians as an independent people, and when I said "but Tito was a Croat" they said "but he was a Communist".

It's all about bogeymen, and when the ethnicity of the bogeyman is not the right one you can always blame the Communists. (Like Stalin the Georgian and Brezhnev the Ukrainian)

Bah, humbug.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 10:59:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Croats never denied that they are proud of their Nazi past...never ever...especially not trough this war of 90ies.But you did not want to hear them. Western fairytale of good guys vs. bad guys would be spoiled.

Who is you? Not me, that's for sure.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 11:40:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I am sorry...when I say you I usually think West Europeans...nothing personal...
by vbo on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 12:25:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And we keep asking you whether you read European Tribune every time you call us us "you".

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 12:26:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There's a lot of truth in that for the early phases of the war. But later on there was plenty of very critical press on the Croats, both their war crimes and their soft spot for the Ustashe.
by MarekNYC on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 11:49:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Not to mention the controversy over the beatification of cardinal Stepinac by Pope Wojtyla...

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 11:55:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
WORLD
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Aug 28th, 2008 at 04:15:41 PM EST
U.S. military frets over future U.S.-Russian ties | Politics | Reuters

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Russia's invasion of Georgia has raised concerns among senior Pentagon officials about long-term U.S.-Russian relations, including future military ties, the top U.S. military official said on Thursday.

Adm. Mike Mullen, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, also said Russian and U.S. military officials were working carefully to coordinate the movements of their navies in an increasingly crowded Black Sea region to avoid any potential for direct confrontation.

"The message that has come from the Russians is one that is tied to invading another country, invading sovereign territory," Mullen told reporters at a Pentagon briefing.

That "has a lot of us concerned about what it means now, what it means a year from now, what it means long term with our relationship on the military-military side as well as the relationship between our two countries," he added.



When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Aug 28th, 2008 at 04:47:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yep, it's official. America never invades other countries, and gets real worried when others exhibit that behaviour.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Aug 28th, 2008 at 04:49:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Putin Suggests U.S. Role in Georgia Conflict

MOSCOW -- Vladimir V. Putin, Russia's prime minister, mused in a televised interview on Thursday that the United States might have helped provoke the war between Russia and Georgia to benefit one of the candidates in the American presidential election.

(...)

In an interview with CNN in the Black Sea beach resort town of Sochi, Mr. Putin said he suspected that American citizens were in the conflict area supporting Georgia's military action in South Ossetia, which Russia says prompted its offensive. The United States denies such support.

Mr. Putin went on to say he was contemplating another possibility.

"The suspicion would arise that someone in the United States created this conflict on purpose," he told CNN.

He said the purpose was to "stir up the situation and to create an advantage for one of the candidates in the competitive race for the presidency in the United States." He added, "They needed a small victorious war.

He will be dismissed again for being unserious.

Yep:


In Washington, the White House spokeswoman, Dana M. Perino, dismissed Mr. Putin's remarks. "To suggest that the United States orchestrated this on behalf of a political candidate just sounds not rational," she said, according to a transcript.


In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Thu Aug 28th, 2008 at 06:25:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Who cares any more about USA dismissal? The world dismissed USA /UK and a bloody "coalition of the w(b)illing" on not rational claim about Saddams WMD that we know now for some time didn't exist at all  and they are still in Iraq 5 years later.
by vbo on Thu Aug 28th, 2008 at 08:30:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
A U.S. passport was found in a building in South Ossetia occupied by Georgian troops, a Russian military spokesperson revealed on Thursday. After Russian peacekeepers cleared the heavily defended building, a passport belonging to a Texan named Michael Lee White was discovered inside.

Hahahaha...this is great.Do you remember those passports found after 9/11 being a crucial evidence of what origin  the terrorist have been ?
Those passports...they are just laying around all over the places...great.
Putin is playing with USA clowns...and it looks like he enjoy it big time...me too...
by vbo on Thu Aug 28th, 2008 at 08:51:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
by vbo on Thu Aug 28th, 2008 at 08:51:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Something about playing chess with the freakin' Russians...

Somewhere in cyberspace, the ghost of de Chardin is smiling.
by budr on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 08:53:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It is much more likely that it was McCain's senior foreign policy adviser that whispered reassurances into the gullible ear of Shaakashvili than that it was any official representative of the USA.  It would be interesting to see McCain's reaction to an invitation to Shaakashvili from a Congressional Oversight Committee to discuss the events leading up to his attack on S. Ossetia under oath.  Could be very interesting.  Especially if he accepts.  Tell him honest answers are the only chance he has of future US backing, let alone NATO membership.

If sanity be culturally normative, then by the norms of this culture I claim insanity.
by ARGeezer on Thu Aug 28th, 2008 at 08:54:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Dear estemed colleague.

My analysis of your comment leads me to believe that a fact vector was missing or is not providing enough weight when you made your calculations.

Quoting AP - Georgia, US start military exercises despite tensions with Russia
The US and Israeli military were both in Georgia on a joint training exercize with the Georgian military for 3 weeks, beginning no later than the 12th of July...it seems they finished less than a week before Saakashvili got his war on during the Olympics' Opening Ceremony on 7 August.

Israel has sold hundreds of millions of dollars worth of arms to Georgia. US donates billions to Israel, much in arms, though it seems a lot is in cement these days.

Was it a coincidence that the Russian forces were at the gates of the problem in Georgia, ready for action? No; as reported here at ET at the time, the Russians decided on their own war games on the other side of the border.

The first that I read of the war was a Stratfor piece the following day where they mentioned that they had assets on the ground, giving reports back, on that Friday night. My guess is that if these assets were Georgian, they spoke with a Southern Drawl more common to Atlanta.

You'll remember also, reported in ET, that during the Georgian retreat, American voices were heard on the radios. The Russians have been claiming US involvement since that time, not just today's mention of found US Passports. 5$ on the found passport belonging to someone in Blackwater's employ.

Intercontinental ballistic missile tests, telling the US that 900,000 tons of yearly poultry and pork meat imports are not going to be on Russian menus (good news for the EU suppliers, no?)...the US better be very serious about using all the military hardware they have in those humanitarian boxes they're unpacking over there now. This is no longer Soros, et al, buying a pretty colored revolution. And the Georgians turning tail and running the last time...how soon until all those arms are in Russian hands?

We're seeing the equivalence of Russia having warships on The Great Lakes and unloading goods on the Canadian side of the Saint Laurent Seaway in support of the break-away province of Quebec. What would the US be doing in that situation?

Last point: to the spineless democrats who thought it would be impolite to impeach Cheney and Bush, the stain for any and all death and mayhem from these events is on your hands.

Never underestimate their intelligence, always underestimate their knowledge.

Frank Delaney ~ Ireland

by siegestate (siegestate or beyondwarispeace.com) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 01:58:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Unless Putin and Medvedev prefer McCain, I would hope that they will content themselves with digesting Abkhazia and S. Ossetia until January.  Knowledge of the US role in that fiasco is starting to seep out even in Arkansas.  Today there was an LTE in the Arkansas Democrat Gazette that made many of the points you just did, absent mention of George Soros.

Bringing such things up during an election in the US can be problematic.  I do think that it could be effective to challenge McCain's judgement in relying on a known lobbyist for foreign governments including Georgia and who was a supporter of Ahmed Chalabi and a conduit for his lies.  

If sanity be culturally normative, then by the norms of this culture I claim insanity.

by ARGeezer on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 12:13:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Also note that US Congressional comments to Saak about NATO are hardly sufficient to get NATO protection for Georgia.  I would hope that European NATO members would continue to oppose such a move.

If sanity be culturally normative, then by the norms of this culture I claim insanity.
by ARGeezer on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 12:36:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
We're seeing the equivalence of Russia having warships on The Great Lakes and unloading goods on the Canadian side of the Saint Laurent Seaway in support of the break-away province of Quebec. What would the US be doing in that situation?

Last I checked neither Georgia nor Turkey were Russian allies. Ukraine has also tended to be rather pro-Georgian in this crisis.

by MarekNYC on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 12:18:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It was too early when I came up with that analogy, and it is too late to unravel your point.

I am only willing to concede that it is the river (fleuve) I was talking about, not the seaway.

And, whether Turkey is equivalent to Minnesota or New Brunswick, Russian War Ships on the St Laurent would be a challenge.

Never underestimate their intelligence, always underestimate their knowledge.

Frank Delaney ~ Ireland

by siegestate (siegestate or beyondwarispeace.com) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 04:30:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Russian warships on the St. Lawrence would be useless sitting ducks.
by MarekNYC on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 04:32:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If you want a proper analogy, try the Mediterranean. In fact, NATO countries are a significantly greater part of the coastline there, than Russia on the Black Sea. Or say the North Sea, or the Baltic. In fact, NATO has much more of the Black Sea coastline than Russia. (Turkey, Romania, Bulgaria) So, in fact, we should presumably be outraged than Russian naval ships are on the Black Sea. You were asking how we would react to a situation like that - well, you've got your answer.
by MarekNYC on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 04:40:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But I want an case of Russian ships on the US border, and I like the provocation of helping the Quebecois (imagining that they have voted to secede.) Kinda like a Cuban thing, but right there...

I acknowledge that it doesn't quite work.

Never underestimate their intelligence, always underestimate their knowledge.

Frank Delaney ~ Ireland

by siegestate (siegestate or beyondwarispeace.com) on Sat Aug 30th, 2008 at 03:55:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

http://www.russiatoday.com/news/news/29628
EU considers sanctions against Russia
Russia's decision to recognise the independence of South Ossetia and Abkhazia has prompted a strong reaction from the European Union, with French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner saying that sanctions and other measures are being considered.

However France, which currently holds EU's rotating presidency, gave no further details on what the sanctions would entail.

by vbo on Thu Aug 28th, 2008 at 08:43:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hq6NAll3riWGn1MCgG21oxOXhrEAD92QSE3O0

Russia could cut poultry and pork import quotas by hundreds of thousands of tons, the country's agriculture minister said Wednesday. The move could hit American producers hard and comes amid heightened tensions between Moscow and Washington over the war in ex-Soviet Georgia.
..."Agreements signed more than three years ago as part of the negotiations on WTO accession are unfortunately no longer in Russia's interests," said Gordeyev. "To put it mildly, we've been deceived."
...
by vbo on Thu Aug 28th, 2008 at 10:20:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
http://www.russiatoday.com/news/news/29622

Russia tests intercontinental missile in Kamchatka
Russia has successfully tested an intercontinental ballistic missile. The country's Defence Ministry has reported that it hit the target on the testing ground in the far eastern region of Kamchatka.

The Ministry claims the weapon is capable of bypassing the most advanced missile defence systems.

Although it has been on stand-by for 21 years, the Ministry said the weapon has shown it can effectively hit high-security facilities.


Let the show begin...

 

by vbo on Thu Aug 28th, 2008 at 08:55:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
http://www.moonofalabama.org/2008/08/russia-fears-an.html#more

A war that you win cancels any other bad action of your doing. In the same way, by losing one, all the good things worked by you before become vain. (Niccolo Machiavelli)

How close are we to a catastrophe...?

by vbo on Thu Aug 28th, 2008 at 10:40:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
[vbo's Crystal Ball of Doom™ Technology]

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 02:25:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't know why people (us) are so on ease...
Now when I think about it I remember how for probably about 6 months or more after the conflicts started in ex YU we simply couldn't believe what's happening and we tended to rather go about our own lives then start to panic. Watching news was more like watching a movie...We definitely thought that it's going to eventually stop prior to the point where it will turn in to the catastrophe. I had a feeling that people felt about it most like about football match. Us vs. them...
Later I met a Serbian woman from Sarajevo that after Karadzic's bombardment of Sarajevo started did not leave the city (all though they arranged for their two daughters to leave for Belgrade). They lived with a daily bombardment and simply couldn't believe what's happening. She told me how she thought: "It must stop in September; the school is starting in September". Talking about normal way of thinking that is resilient no matter what...
We in Serbia only realized how serious it is when they started to come and take our husbands, sons, nephews to the Army and sent them to front in Croatia.
Also me and my husband opposed Milosevic and his doing from the beginning but other people were not so sure what to think. State TV was talking one thing , traces of "free" media ( financed by west) were talking the opposite...reality was more and more gloomy and things progressed to the absurd point where some of  the people were not able to further support the leader who is taking us to the abyss but on the other hand they couldn't believe this is happening. I remember a friend who was supportive of Milosevic being one of the editors of State TV news when confronted with absurdity of our situation told us : "I hope Milosevic knows what he is doing...he must know something we don't know..."
It happened so that Milosevic did not have any hidden agenda or agreement that would save Serbia.
I am afraid we are now in the same situation. As things deteriorate daily we can't believe that nuclear war is possible...we do believe that THEY (leaders on both sides) know what they are doing and that they will after some show of power come to some agreement and save the world of nuclear catastrophe. But is it so???
by vbo on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 02:37:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
he must know something we don't know...

That must be the single most common answer when any government is criticised. I certainly encountered it when criticising Bush in the US in 2001-4.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 02:41:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, you're right. we have no reason to feel at ease. Not because our leaders must know something we don't, I long ceased to believe they know much of anything beyond the convenient lies they're fed by vested interests.

But that's the problem. When you have belligerent people on both sides, who can make them stop ? These are people who rule by bluster, by bullying, by fear. They have a psychological compulsion to make the other guy feel bad. when they are in charge of a country and its military that's a bad combination.

Putin and Medvedev might or might not fill that profile, but Bush, cheney and McCain certainly do. Now we are in a situation where the russians cannot back down without losing face and Cheney feels he can make good things happen for McCain by chasing the ruskies back to moscow, so he's not gonna stop.

Of course they show off their weapons, set off their silly fire-crackers, send their little boats to make noises in the Black sea. That's how it's done in their infantile goatish playgorund world of bashing heads.

So, am I at ease ? No. Can I do anything about it ? No, there is literally nothing we can do about it. Our leaders have entirely insulated themselves from reason and rationality. So there's no point getting uptight about it.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 06:12:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Probably even capable of hitting Poland all the way from Russia--unlike the Iranian ones...
by asdf on Thu Aug 28th, 2008 at 11:01:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Obama speech

TPM Election Central | Talking Points Memo | Obama's Historic Speech: The Full Text

With profound gratitude and great humility, I accept your nomination for the presidency of the United States.

Orange reaction - and the crowd goes wild...

Daily Kos: Text of Obama's Acceptance Speech

Update by brownsox: I have never seen Barack Obama give a better speech. I have never seen anyone give a better political speech.

Update by MissLaura: A friend reports that CNN didn't even break in over the crowd shots at the ending immediately as would be normal practice. That's a sign something extraordinary happened.

BBC reader reactions (perhaps with some freeping?)

BBC NEWS | Have Your Say | Obama speech: Your views

What an inspiring speech! It as a speech of hope. America is suffering under the yoke of the Bush Admin. It will be a great day for not only America but the world, when he takes the oath of office.

Mr Vassmer

Empty rhetoric...how many times will people honestly believe he will "break US dependence on foreign oil", "Unite the country", "Save Social Security"...etc, he never actually says how he plans to accomplish those goals. How is he going to afford everything he's promising?

Obama and many of his more cult like supporters are going to have a rude awakening when they discover that not everybody is going to become leftist liberals because he talks about "change".

Mike Cuz, Sacramento, United States

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Aug 28th, 2008 at 11:33:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Like a true madman, i stayed up 'til after 5AM to watch the speech.  It was powerful, and hit many high notes.  But it also included many middle-of-the-road sops to centrist independents.

His energy policy left me bland.  He did say that drilling was just a temporary measure, and that there would be vast support for renewables.  But he also said he supports an increase of safe nuclear power.  Safe nuclear power is not going to happen in a nation with grandma peace activists on no-fly lists.  His comments on Georgia indicate he does seem to have learned that he'd best moderate his comments about Russia, which he'll have to mouth until he gets the win, because it will be such a central part of McCain's campaign shit.

I won't have any problem voting for him, but like many national votes in amurka, it will be with the eyes of reality open.  

What impressed me the most was his life's path, and how he worked that into who he is as a politician.  Amurka could do far worse than this (first African-American)  President of the Harvard Law Review, who achieved that pulling himself up from relative poverty.  That's far more encouraging than anything currently on the horizon, or from the past post-Carter decades.

I expect his triangulation comes a bit more from the heart than that of the Clinton dynasty, and this will be a strong plus.  That he will have to govern during the end of empire and financial meltdown will be very, very hard.  But there's probably no one better equipped on the current scene.

(I wish Gore hadn't been fast on his points, as he gave a very detailed policy speech leading up to Obama.  It wasn't as effective as possible, but perhaps as necessary.)

Skennah Kowa

by Crazy Horse on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 05:46:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't get the ZOMG!!!!1!!!! BEST SPEECH EVAH!!!! hyperbole. It was certainly a McCain-is-toast speech, but from a progressive POV there was a whole lot of pandering going on.

E.g. He followed up a promise to reduce dependency on foreign oil with a nice story about cars for everyone! Built in the US! For everyone! Not so much about making travel and city design saner and - oh dear - maybe even more European.

Also - clean coal? What is clean coal?

Considering the rest was all dare-to-dream, I thought the dreams weren't all that daring. And the foreign policy lines were downright scary and hawkish. He's smart enough to make negotiations with Putin, er, Medvedev, far more interesting than the clown show the Bush team have turned them into, but he also sounds too ideologically blinkered and too much of an exceptionalist to be good at effective realpolitik.

Still he is who he is, and while he's not Mr Aggressive Progressive, he's moving in a better direction.

The real enemy from now on won't be McCain, it's going to be the various corporate machines and their Washington puppets, who are going to be trying very hard to push the policy agenda back towards the right, even after a likely Dem win.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 06:18:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Why is nobody talking about his prominent promise to cut taxes?

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 06:21:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Perhaps because he's not cutting taxes for the right people?

by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 06:37:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Actually several speakers at the DNC mentioned that Obama would cut taxes for 95% of all people.

But I'm not sure if Migeru wanted to put that as a plus. If lying wouldn't be more effective in a campaign than telling the truth, anybody who cuts taxes, would have to explain, where to cut expenditures, too. Of course McCain's proposals are complete fantasy without any connection to reality, but when Obama doesn't want to cut military spending, and this is difficult, when he wants to escalate Afghanistan, he needs more tax income.

  • The deficit of the unified budget will soon narrow the gap with the deficit of the general budget - so no more payroll tax support for the general budget
  • A significant portion of the costs of the Iraq war are health care costs for veterans, equipment must be replaced
  • the debt to GDP ratio rose in the last 8 years in the US, so Obama has to deal with higher interest payments
  • Obama wants to invest into renewable energies, improve the infrastructure of America, and pay health insurance benefits from taxes
  • the states and communities are as well in fiscal trouble, for paying for things like public education as well the federal wallet might be tapped
  • the price of oil may go up again in the next years. Even a fairly aggressive plan - an extreme ambicious plan is not in the books - would not reduce foreign oil depenedency fast enough, to not making that a drag on the economy, especially given that the gulf prefers to spend its money in Europe and China instead of the US of A

More over the share of all taxes as part of the GDP is quite a bit smaller in the US than in most EU states. So, if one really doesn't want to reduce spending (reducing the military budget would be the top priority for me), it doesn't seem to be absurd to pay for the expenditures by increasing the tax rate.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers
by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 10:34:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Exactly. But if he told the truth, he wouldn't get elected. His policies are much better than McCain's (the figures I've seen for McCain include an even bigger deficit), but that's about it. All we can do is hope that he'll do (or be forced to do) relatively reasonable things once in office.
by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 10:43:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, I didn't want to point it out as a plus.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 10:47:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Please note that the comparative tax proposals above are only showing the effects of tax rate changes for income tax.  Obama is proposing closing tax loopholes.  Were that done effectively it could raise the effective rates on upper brackets and corporations much more.

If sanity be culturally normative, then by the norms of this culture I claim insanity.
by ARGeezer on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 12:41:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Often amazed by how little TBG knows about energy.  Clean coal is coal that is cleaner, washed or something, usually with Dr. Bronner's soap before it's burned.

Some coal is cleaned at the source, before it's burned, as when a mountain top is cleanly stripped of its top.  The part that is not cleaned is washed down into former stream beds, where the gentle water that used to flow there purifies the silt into paradisical farm lands where even farmer's wives in gingham dresses can grow gardens of organic coal potatoes.

What little dirt remains on washed coal is then burned, with some leaking into the atmosphere.  But it does not damage, as it is heavier than air, and falls down either in the northeastern forests and lakes, or in the chasms of the Grand Canyon, so it doesn't affect people directly (except for the ones who continue to breathe.)

Clean coal also protects people from being overly stunned by the beauty of the Grand Canyon, as they don't have to be awed by a view of the other side anymore.

Go Barack "Energy is My Middle Name" Obama!

Skennah Kowa

by Crazy Horse on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 07:06:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thank you for the clarity.
by afox (afox at rockgardener dott com) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 09:14:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'd give it a B on substance -- generally pretty good but inevitably with some bullshit pandering and toughguyism thrown in -- and an A on delivery.

Especially as the delivery went during the portions on Iraq.  A key difference between Kerry and Obama that I picked up on was that Kerry had to continuously insist that he was strong enough to be president.  It came across as whiny and weak for Kerry.  Obama went straight at it, and the delivery allowed him to assume away McCain's bullshit narrative ("Of course he's wrong and I'm right, you asshats").

That's where being a good orator matters.

He framed the election very well, and the funny thing is it turns out that the one person in Denver who knew how to hit McCain in a solid way turned out to be...Obama.

I liked the economics portions, especially hitting the Reps on supply-side economics and their Protestant work ethic horseshit:

For over two decades, he's subscribed to that old, discredited Republican philosophy - give more and more to those with the most and hope that prosperity trickles down to everyone else. In Washington, they call this the Ownership Society, but what it really means is - you're on your own. Out of work? Tough luck. No health care? The market will fix it. Born into poverty? Pull yourself up by your own bootstraps - even if you don't have boots. You're on your own.

Certainly it could have been a better speech.  But I think it probably won him some votes.  On the whole, I think we got out of this convention more than what we needed to get out of it.

WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 09:09:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
well-parsed, drew.

"I freed thousands of slaves. I could have freed thousands more, if they had known they were slaves." -Harriet Tubman .
by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 04:45:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
West Bank Withdrawal: Israeli Settlers Look for Compensation to Leave - International - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News

Many Israeli settlers would gladly leave their homes in the West Bank, as long as they are compensated financially. The group Bait Echad has been pushing for a planned withdrawal to avoid a repeat of the chaotic scenes in the Gaza Strip.

 Jewish settlement of Har Homa in east Jerusalem. Many settlers want compensation rather than risk being left behind in any eventual Palestinian state. When Benny Raz comes home in the evening and gets out of his car, his neighbors turn their backs on him and disappear into their houses. Ras is wearing a short black jacket and jeans. His head looks like a coarsely modeled sculpture, with his protruding cheekbones and eyes set deeply in their sockets. He is 55, and he says: "I have lost all of my friends here."

Raz, an Israeli, sits down on an old sofa in his living room and lights an Imperial, the cigarette brand favored by Palestinians. His wife enters the room and serves Nescafe with cookies. She says: "Just to make one thing clear, Benni: You don't speak for me."

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 01:39:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
UNITED NATIONS, Aug 28 (Reuters) - U.S. and Russian envoys exchanged sharp words on Thursday over Iraq and Kosovo at a U.N. Security Council meeting on Georgia, at which Russia found little support for its actions in the Caucasus.
...U.S. Deputy Ambassador Alejandro Wolff told the meeting it was a violation of the U.N. charter for member states to use force against others, or threaten to use it, and suggested that Moscow's claims to be protecting Russian citizens in Georgia's South Ossetia region were a sham.
...Russia's U.N. envoy, Vitaly Churkin, suggested Wolff's statement was hypocritical and referred to the U.S.-led March 2003 invasion of Iraq, which Moscow strongly opposed.
"I would like to ask the distinguished representative of the United States -- weapons of mass destruction. Have you found them yet in Iraq or are you still looking for them?"
...Wolff accused Churkin of making false comparisons. "I'm not a psychologist and I don't know what brought on the free association we heard from Ambassador Churkin," he said.

"There were divisions on the Iraq war," he said. "Those are well known. We thought we had overcome them. Apparently there are still some lingering frustrations. But there is no territorial ambition or desire to dismember Iraq."

Unbelievable...after invading Iraq, Afghanistan and threatening Iran...American politicians know NO shame. Bastards.

by vbo on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 02:51:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
didn't you know ? America is the one indispensible nation. American Exceptionalism isn't just an aspiration, it's a cultural given. Even on supposedly progressive dKos, you can get into an almighty row if you don't accept america's right to do what it likes, when it likes, to whom it likes.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 06:17:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Even on supposedly progressive dKos, you can get into an almighty row if you don't accept america's right to do what it likes, when it likes, to whom it likes.

Which is why Dkoz gives me indigestion.


If sanity be culturally normative, then by the norms of this culture I claim insanity.
by ARGeezer on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 12:47:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
http://www.moonofalabama.org/2008/08/russia-fears-an.html?cid=128244084#comment-128244084

inner city press also covered today's sessions

    Kosovo came up again and again in the debate, and then afterwards at the Press stakeout. Churkin said that while NATO had bombed Serbian television, Russia has not bombed Georgian TV, despite its content. (The reference may also have been to Rwanda's Radio Television Milles Collines, the poster child of ethnic hatred media that was also never bombed, but whose officials were later indicted and convicted by the International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda.)

    At the stakeout, Inner City Press asked Amb. Wolff about Churkin's argument, and Wolff called it specious. Inner City Press pointed out that several Security Council resolutions about Kosovo had referred to Serbia's territorial integrity, before that integrity was dismissed earlier this year. Wolff responded that Serbian territorial integrity was surrendered earlier, with Russia's approval, when resolutions were passed calling for the withdrawal of Serbian military forces from Kosovo, and turning over authority in Kosovo to the United Nations. Video here.

    When Inner City Press asked Churkin to respond, he said that it was the UN's administration of Kosovo which made its declaration of independence, and 45 countries' recognition of it, all the more illegal. Video here. And so it goes at the UN and Security Council.


 I could really puke...Finally someone dares to tell them OBVIOUS TRUTH that hurts eyes for so long.
Bastards.
by vbo on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 03:02:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
nner City Press pointed out that several Security Council resolutions about Kosovo had referred to Serbia's territorial integrity, before that integrity was dismissed earlier this year. Wolff responded that Serbian territorial integrity was surrendered earlier, with Russia's approval, when resolutions were passed calling for the withdrawal of Serbian military forces from Kosovo, and turning over authority in Kosovo to the United Nations. Video here.

One really needs to be a bloody bastard to say this.I hope cancer will it him to the last cell.

Here is bloody resolution 1244 saying:

http://www.nato.int/Kosovo/docu/u990610a.htm

Reaffirming the commitment of all Member States to the sovereignty and territorial integrity of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and the other States of the region, as set out in the Helsinki Final Act and annex 2,

Reaffirming the call in previous resolutions for substantial autonomy and meaningful self-administration for Kosovo,


by vbo on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 03:09:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
While I agree with your point completely, it's worth pointing out that there are a lot of UN resolutions on Israel that aren't adhered to by Israel or the USA.

by and large the UN is only as effective as the superpowers want it to be. Right now, that only seems to be when the UN agrees with them, but not when it rules against them.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 06:21:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I understand that but what makes me furious is that they are calling Russia to respect international law and UN rules that they, USA, simply do not give a rat ass to respect. It's beyond hypocrisy. It's perverse Do they think that we (world population) are ALL morons?
by vbo on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 10:16:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I can't even put together a coherent rant on it. Or a suitably incoherent one.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 10:30:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
try mainlining the kool aide instead of sipping it...

"I freed thousands of slaves. I could have freed thousands more, if they had known they were slaves." -Harriet Tubman .
by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 04:47:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's perverse Do they think that we (world population) are ALL morons?

it would be truly moronic to believe otherwise...

"I freed thousands of slaves. I could have freed thousands more, if they had known they were slaves." -Harriet Tubman .

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 04:49:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
by vbo on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 11:27:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
THIS, THAT, AND THE OTHER
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Aug 28th, 2008 at 04:17:18 PM EST

I have not watched it (a bit hard on dialup).

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Thu Aug 28th, 2008 at 06:40:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
A woman after my own heart!  The vulgarity she declined to use regarding the "New Jack 2" oil field is the very one I use to describe the kind of politics we are practicing in Georgia and elsewhere.

If sanity be culturally normative, then by the norms of this culture I claim insanity.
by ARGeezer on Thu Aug 28th, 2008 at 09:08:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
A biblical tragedy in the Sea of Galilee - Middle East, World - The Independent
An arid country, Israel relies on the waters where Jesus sailed to irrigate its farmland and supply its homes. But now the lake is drying up - and only drastic action will save it

The 2,000-year-old fishing boat of Galilee in which, the story goes, Jesus may have sailed, is one of the most precious ancient treasures in Israel.

The vessel, which draws thousands of tourists to a kibbutz in Ginosar, was discovered by chance in 1986 when the sea level dropped dramatically because of a severe drought.

"This year it is actually worse. I have been here 54 years and I have never seen the water so low, the situation so bad," said Haim Binstock, an expert on the boat in the museum where it is kept. "I don't think the outside world realises just how dangerous the situation is, not just for Israel but for the whole region."

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 01:43:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's a semi-arid area that is farmed in an extremely stupid way. Basically a load of europeans farming like they're in a wet temperate climate, so they irrigate. Anybody want to know why Iraq is a desert ?? Panhandle dustbowl in S USA ?? Exact same thing.

didn't somebody here highlight a video of proper farming technique in that desert last year ?

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 06:26:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Helen, the Islamic empire were world leaders in irrigation techniques for a reason.

In semiarid areas you irrigate. See Mesopotamia, the "Fertile Crescent", the lower Nile and, why, yes, Al Andalus.

It's not about stupid Europeans though they may be stupidly growing wet temperate crops...

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 06:29:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm talking about Israel. That's emphatically not the islamic world and the draining of the Sea of Galilee is absolutely about stupid europeans growing wet temperate crops.

the Fertile Crescent is a historical fact. It's where civilisation emerged and way back then it's where farming devleoped. But then it received rainfall.

Then, when the climate changed 6,500 odd years ago everything went to shit down there cos it stopped raining. Yes, they learnt to irrigate, but didn't understand the process of salinification and so gradually the land became unusable and the soil blew away, leaving dry sand.

Also, as the land became drier, the irrigation channels got longer and longer. Satellite photos reveal how new channels were dug to bring in water from further and further away.

But it was hopeless. You can farm in arid regions so long as you stay in areas of marshland that flood. But the "fertile crescent hasn't flooded in thousands of years. That's why it's a desert.

And somebody here posted a video last year showing the proper way to farm in that region. and it ain't the way the israelis do it.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 08:16:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The problem in the fertile crescent wasn't only lack of rain ; the original agriculture techniques involved leaving the land fallows for a dozen years, essentially letting the forest regrow before burning it and cultivating it. As population densities increased, the forest couldn't find the time to regrow - and thus the land started blowing away, replaced by sands. The forests could hold water for quite some time ; the baren lands they gave way to couldn't.

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 08:25:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm talking about Israel. That's emphatically not the islamic world

Where is Palestine, then?

But yes, draining the Galilee sea would be a stupid irrigation technique in any case.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 10:55:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Global Cooling: Can Carbon Dioxide Be Turned to Concrete? - International - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News

Engineers are constantly coming up with new ways to dispose of greenhouse gases. The latest idea is to hide carbon dioxide exhaust in cement. The method could revolutionize one of the most carbon-intensive industries in the world.

Concrete analysis in a Düsseldorf laboratory: "Lots of things can be tested in an aquarium." Vinod Khosla has a lot of money, and he wants to put it to good use, which explains his Silicon Valley nickname, "Angel Investor." The 53-year-old Indian has already invested $450 million (€290 million) of his personal fortune in new technologies to save mankind and the planet.

A little more than a year ago, Khosla received an e-mail. What it contained, in its 12 lines of text, was exactly the sort of thing this immensely wealthy philanthropist likes to read.

"I have an idea for a sustainable cement," Brent Constantz, a chemistry professor, wrote. His idea was to convert the carbon dioxide emissions from a power plant into cement, thereby rendering the gas harmless.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 01:45:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Global Cooling: Can Carbon Dioxide Be Turned to Concrete? - International - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News
The concrete industry produces more than two billion tons of cement worldwide each year. In doing so, it releases 5 percent of the carbon dioxide emitted worldwide, making it the third-largest single producer of the greenhouse gas. The industry's large carbon footprint is a result of energy-intensive production processes, which include temperatures of 1450 degrees Celsius (2642 degrees Fahrenheit) to bake the raw materials and the use of electric motors to pulverize the resulting cement bricks.

How much energy for a brick - always a question of which I wanted to hunt down the answer...

Sounds like the proposed method has potential, tweaking with the speed up a natural process. I wonder if dissolved magnesium/calcium in the water will not become a limiting factor at some point, though.

by Nomad on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 05:16:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
BBC NEWS | Europe | Italy police probe monastery raid

Italian police are investigating a brutal attack on four Franciscan friars in a monastery in northern Italy.

Italian media are comparing Tuesday's attack, at the San Colombano Belmonte monastery near Turin, to the violence in the story A Clockwork Orange.

Three or four hooded attackers entered the monastery and bound and gagged the friars, the oldest of whom was 86.

One managed to raise the alarm two hours later, when he regained consciousness after being beaten.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 01:50:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
newsobserver.com | Bayer on defensive in bee deaths
Bayer on defensive in bee deaths German authorities look into allegation that RTP maker's pesticide harms environment

Sabine Vollmer, Staff Writer

Bayer CropScience is facing scrutiny because of the effect one of its best-selling pesticides has had on honeybees.

A German prosecutor is investigating Werner Wenning, Bayer's chairman, and Friedrich Berschauer, the head of Bayer CropScience, after critics alleged that they knowingly polluted the environment.

The investigation was triggered by an Aug. 13 complaint filed by German beekeepers and consumer protection advocates, a Coalition against Bayer Dangers spokesman, Philipp Mimkes, said Monday.

The complaint is part of efforts by groups on both sides of the Atlantic to determine how much Bayer CropScience knows about the part that clothianidin may have played in the death of millions of honeybees.

Bayer CropScience, which has its U.S. headquarters in Research Triangle Park, said field studies have shown that bees' exposure to the pesticide is minimal or nonexistent if the chemical is used properly.

Clothianidin and related pesticides generated about $1 billion of Bayer CropScience's $8.6 billion in global sales last year. The coalition is demanding that the company withdraw all of the pesticides.

"We're suspecting that Bayer submitted flawed studies to play down the risks of pesticide residues in treated plants," said Harro Schultze, the coalition's attorney.

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Fri Aug 29th, 2008 at 06:31:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
KLATSCH

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Aug 28th, 2008 at 04:20:59 PM EST
Colman:
Is that the time again?

"klatsch" isn't easy to spell on an iPhone after a couple of glasses of wine ...



When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Aug 28th, 2008 at 04:39:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think you (Colman) posted the header instants before me.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Aug 28th, 2008 at 04:40:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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