European Tribune

What is America good for?

by Frank Schnittger
Tue Aug 12th, 2008 at 10:55:36 AM EST

Sven Triloqvist:
It might be that the USA is lost. It might be that the USA should be sacrificed to save the planet. There is a lot to be said for saving the planet - I haven't heard too many reasons for saving the USA.

Would someone like to offer me some arguments as to why we NEED the USA? I have never heard any cogent arguments, except entitlement.

When one country - using 25% of the world's energy - the cuckoo in the nest - claims to be in trouble, I say "Are you worth saving? Give me some reasons that you should be helped!

The above comment on European Tribune - TIME Magazine: Oh, Come the fuck ON
could have provoked a lot of indignant defenses of the USA or tit-for-tat comments by US contributors querying what Europe is good for.  We could have had an orgy of mutual finger pointing to the tune of "my country is better than yours".  To ET's credit, this didn't happen, other than some mildly snarky repartee.

But Sven never got much of an answer to his question, and there may be those (not here, of course!)who revel in a certain Schadenfreude as the Neo-con "New American Century" bites the dust in a welter of military stalemate, financial meltdown, and the huge loss of political influence and prestige which has characterised the Bush Presidency.

Personally, I don't find such nationalistically framed arguments very helpful, but my attempt to frame the debate in a more global and historical context didn't provoke much debate even if it was kindly rated.  So I am repeating it here, below the fold, in the hope that we can arrive at a more systematic and deeper understanding of how the current global political system works - or doesn't - as the case may be.

Just what contribution has the US been making to the current world order, and how might that contribution be improved?


Prior to WW1 there was a multi-polar world order - made up of competing European based empires - Britain, France, Germany, Spain, Austria Hungary, Russia etc. - plus the US. This system was unstable because empires kept building alliances to try and defeat other empires.  WW1 was so horrible it was supposed to be the war to end all wars and the League of Nations was set up to end this system of imperial competition.

In practice the outcome of WW1 was to mutually impoverish the all the European based empires - with Britain/France as the nominal winners - but with the USA as the real winner by default.  Germany didn't  accept its planned impoverishment - and Japan wanted to get into the game - and so we had WW2.  The USA rather cleverly let the direct combatants exhaust each other somewhat before it came in and cleaned up the remainder.  The UN and the EU emerged to try and prevent a repeat.

The Soviet Union, having suffered horrendously at the hands of Nazism and fearful of invasion wasn't prepared to accept US hegemony, and so we had the Cold War -  effectively a bi-polar world order where all other nations had to choose which side they were on as more or less client states.  Governments which resisted incorporation into one empire or the other were subverted or toppled - by economic, clandestine, or overtly military leans - with major regional conflicts in Korea, and Vietnam.

Remarkably this arrangement proved reasonably stable at a global level: Nuclear war was averted and the conflict largely exported to third world theaters.  Europe and the US thrived, but the Soviet Union couldn't stand the strain of being the sole countervailing power.  So the Soviet Union collapsed and we had Pax Americana -  a Unipolar world order where the US was dominant militarily, economically, politically and culturally/ideologically.

Again a reasonably stable arrangement except that some in the US elite became increasingly arrogant.  The Neo-conservative "New American Century" project basically treated everyone else as a vassal state to be subordinated to US political, military and economic interests.  The end of the threat of socialist revolution meant that the ruling elites could abandon the social democratic/New Deal compromise with the middle/working classes which had provided the basis for post war stability within Europe and the USA. Raw capitalism, red in tooth and claw, once again became the order of the day.

The trouble was that it is very hard to maintain internal stability in an increasingly unequal society without some external bogeyman to scare the populace into conformity with ruling elite interests and norms.  Gorbachev famously commented that "We have taken your enemy away from you - what will you do now?"   So the war against communism was replaced by the war on terror, on drugs, on civil liberties, and on any convenient dictator who could be mustered up to play the bad guy.

Some, like Israel, and perhaps the UK and Saudi Arabia managed to secure a favoured place in this new dispensation - and were very happy to play along.  But others in Europe sought to create a countervailing force through the EU and some states like Russia, China, India, and Iran are beginning to challenge US hegemony.  The US is too thinly spread to control the entire global system on its own, but has been inept at creating alliances whereby other client states do much of the controlling work for it at a regional level.

So we are in danger of reverting to a multi-polar system with all the dangers of inter-imperial competition we had prior to WW1.  However much we might dislike many aspects of US hegemony, American dominance since WW2 has coincided with a period of RELATIVE peace and prosperity around the world (ok - the Vietnamese, Palestinians, Iraqis etc. might not agree).  However this phenomenon may not have all that much to do with American exceptionalism or any particular innate characteristic of the American people, and more to do with the characteristics of a Unipolar rather than a multi-polar world order.

We REALLY don't want to go back to a pre-WW1 type system of international relations with competing Empires creating alliances and waging war on each other. It is a pity the US (under Bush) hasn't shown more foresight and sought to build up the UN and other world organisations to create a system of genuine global governance which can more equally and fairly represent and express the differing interests  within that global world order.  

We need better systems to control war crimes, human rights, regional conflicts, local despots,  global warming, trade, currency exchange, financial services etc. - but having acquired a world empire, the US has been too unwilling to let go of some of that power and allow a more genuinely democratic and balanced world order to emerge.  Critical to the Neo-con project was the destruction of the UN and any attempts to develop a coherent and enforcible body of International Law to which all would be subject as equals.  Even the re-introduction of Government sponsored torture may have had more to do with undermining all international law and conventions than with gaining any actionable intelligence on the ground.

It was to be US rule and with everyone else having to play by the US rules.  Consequently the US is engaged in a series of wars to try and maintain this dominance - and is being weakened in the process.   China, India, Japan, the EU etc. - are not carrying much of the costs of these wars, and thus are growing more economically powerful vis a vis the US all the time.  Sooner or later the US elite need to learn that military/hard power on its own is costly and ineffectual, and that if it wants its values to prevail it will have to cede many of its imperial powers to genuinely global governance agencies.  The tragedy for the US is that Bush has wasted the last 8 years doing the exact opposite. In the meantime economic and political power is gradually slipping away from the US.

The 50 year era of US dominance post WW2 has been relatively peaceful and prosperous, and although obviously unjust in many ways, it is hardly comparable to the old Imperial looters and Hitler and Stalin in their rapaciousness and evil.  There is no guarantee the next 50 years are going to be as stable - especially if we have a serious of resource wars over diminishing oil, food, and water resources.

So we may yet come to appreciate the era of Pax Americana as a relatively benign era - not because the American people are innately morally superior, but because a Unipolar world order worked reasonably well for a time until the arrogance and hubris of the few destroyed it.

The real question is whether we can create a better, fairer and more stable world order as the American empire declines.  Smaller countries like Finland, and Ireland can have a role in this - as they are experienced in the diplomatic skills needed to survive in the shadow of imperial powers.  But the much bigger question is whether the emerging bigger powers can have the vision and leadership to cede enough power to Global bodies which makes a system of international law more robust and enforcible.

If it is to succeed all the major players have to be brought on board.  That is the vision and skill set the US has not, in recent times, demonstrated, even as the unipolar world order has become ever more unstable.  We can criticise the US for this failure, but we in Europe have little to be smug about either, and petty nationalistic finger pointing is hardly the way forward for any of us.

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The US still provides hope to the oppressed. People are risking life and limb to get into the US, I don't think the same thing can be said of Russia.

The US still provides most of the leading edge technological innovation, although this is changing. Essentially all the important work in electronics, computers, the internet and communications has come out of the US or been based upon such original work.

Much biomedical research also has a US basis (or did until recently).

In addition "innovations" in finance and international trade have come out of the US. That things have been allowed to go too far is a weakness in governance, not innovation.

The premise of the US: "all men are created equal", is still unmatched by any other nation. Some have more compassionate social policies, but the idealism taught in civics classes is not as strong. The US is also the longest running democratic country even with its problems.

The trick is to make the ideal closer to reality. Some of us are trying...

Policies not Politics
---- Daily Landscape

by rdf (robert.feinman@gmail.com) on Tue Aug 12th, 2008 at 12:22:30 PM EST
rdf:
The US still provides hope to the oppressed. People are risking life and limb to get into the US, I don't think the same thing can be said of Russia.

I don't really want to get involved in a nationalist "my country is better than yours" type debate, but lets look at the evidence.

That the US remains an economic powerhouse, despite being in relative decline (share of world GDP), is not in dispute.  However the Bush regime has seen an almost unprecedented decline in US political prestige.  Despite such wealth, the US imprisons a larger proportion of its population than almost any other, there are huge and growing economic inequalities, poor public services, its "democracy" - with low voter participation rates, partisan control of the electoral system, dominance of big money commercial interests, politicisation of the judiciary etc.  are not seen as a model by many other democracies of equivalent wealth.

I suppose part of my thesis above is that whereas the US has been extraordinarily successful in many ways, it has seriously lost its way politically in recent years, so much so, that even its economic dominance is now under threat.

rdf:

The premise of the US: "all men are created equal", is still unmatched by any other nation

I think you need to get out of the US more!  I think you will find that in many ways the US is being left behind when it comes to equality of opportunity, social mobility, and educational attainment - even in countries still emerging from economic/political under-development...

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Tue Aug 12th, 2008 at 12:55:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't really want to get involved in a nationalist "my country is better than yours" type debate

Then why on earth did you write such an inflamatory diary, singling out one country many ETers call home and asking what it is good for?  

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."

by poemless on Tue Aug 12th, 2008 at 01:36:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Because the US is the 800 pound gorilla in the banana plantation?

Och nu den svenska kocken bakar en Alaskan älg jägare. Bonk! Bonk! Bonk!
by ATinNM on Tue Aug 12th, 2008 at 01:46:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I was asking him.  

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."
by poemless on Tue Aug 12th, 2008 at 01:51:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It was Sven who asked the question - and I think it is a reasonable question to ask what role any nation - particularly the most powerful - plays in the international political system.

However my answer was not framed in terms of US exceptionalism, or claims to superior or inferior national virtue - but more in terms of the changing underlying structure of the Global world order - from multi-polar to Bipolar, to Unipolar - and suggesting that unless we build really strong global governance and International Law structures - we could be heading back to a world order structurally reminiscent of the multi-polar one we had prior to WW1.

That, in my view, is in no one's best interest.

My purpose in publishing this as a diary is to promote an analysis based on the structure of international relations rather than on comparisons of  ascribed or claimed national virtue, entitlement, morality, divine destiny or whatever.

Thus the claim that rdf:

The premise of the US: "all men are created equal", is still unmatched by any other nation.
is not only questionable, but it is beside the point.  Even if it were true, it does not change the fact that we seem to be moving away from a Unipolar back to a multy-polar world order - and that has proved extremely unstable in the past - even before Nuclear weapons.

If you do not believe a Unipolar world order is sustainable indefinitely, you have to make a case for a better alternative - and that in my view is a much more regulated international system of international treaties, conventions and organisations with much stronger law enforcement mechanisms.

I'm happy to consider any alternatives you or others might like to offer, but my point is that we don't want to slip back into a multi-polar world order without strong global governance mechanisms if we want to avoid ww3.

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Tue Aug 12th, 2008 at 02:18:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks for your repsonse.

We disgaree.

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."

by poemless on Tue Aug 12th, 2008 at 02:50:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
OK, but what is your alternative?

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Tue Aug 12th, 2008 at 02:57:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Alternative to what?  Your one world government?  No, that sounds great.  Let me know how it works out.  

My original question/comment was: how can you ask what America is good for (anything?) and then say you want to avoid conflicts rooted in feelings of national inferiority or superiority.  Either you're being 1) insincere 2) utterly naive or 3) not up to the task you've assigned yourself.  It makes no sense to me.  

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."

by poemless on Tue Aug 12th, 2008 at 03:39:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
poemless:
Alternative to what?  Your one world government?  No, that sounds great.  Let me know how it works out.  

My original question/comment was: how can you ask what America is good for (anything?) and then say you want to avoid conflicts rooted in feelings of national inferiority or superiority.  Either you're being 1) insincere 2) utterly naive or 3) not up to the task you've assigned yourself.  It makes no sense to me.  

There is a very big difference between an enforceable system of international law and a world Government, but I suspect you were just mocking me.

America was quite good at leading a Unipolar world order - it didn't impose a Stalinist/Nazi style dictatorship - but it has been less good at preparing itself and the world for an era in which unipolarity (or world dominance by one power) is no longer achievable and a system is required which can control the excesses of a number of major competing powers as we had prior to WW1 and WW2.

My whole thesis is that there are structural requirements to maintaining stability in such a complex system and that national feelings of superiority or inferiority are largely beside the point.

However I have the sense that we are talking past each other on this and so, if you don't mind, I will give our bilateral conversation on this a miss.

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Tue Aug 12th, 2008 at 04:34:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Frank Schnittger:
it didn't impose a Stalinist/Nazi style dictatorship

No, it didn't, but it did impose a consumer-friendly corporate dictatorship where jackboots and military music were replaced by tinkly seductive advertising and endless reinforcement of the idea that eight hours of work a day, aren't just good for you, they're the law.

In smaller countries the US has been very good at imposing Stalinist-style dictatorships.

We've had a fine time in Europe, more or less, inside the Capital Curtain, but outside life has been rougher - much rougher. If there's one thing I'd take issue with in your diary it's that it's written from a Eurocentric view which doesn't acknowledge that.

I've said before that I don't think there's one US, and also that there's no point having a go at individual people from the US because they're not in much of a position to change anything - at least, not soon.

But politically it seems obvious the US is very much a traditional imperial aristocracy with token voting. The token voting makes it look like a democracy, but policy is set - rigidly - by a self-serving would-be aristocracy, and bottom-up basics like health care get the bare minimum of attention from the left and none at all from the right.

If you want democracy, look at Scandinavia. The politicians are mostly boring, but that's how it should be - if you're being ruled by crooks, spivs, perverts, clowns, freaks, and liars, you're not living in a democracy, no matter how often you vote.

At the same time people are far more timid about political assertion than they were a century ago. The US and European labour movements were tough - and there's nothing like them today, either in the US or in Europe.

This would be of abstract interest if the US didn't seem determined to take everyone down with it. If it was an internal problem we could look on in quiet horror. But it's our lunch that's being stolen, and that makes it personal - and hard to take when we're told that we should be grateful that we're being robbed.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Aug 12th, 2008 at 06:33:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This is one of the great comments here.  Ask the "people" of Guatemala, or in Manilla.  Remember the outpourings of support after 11 September, but don't forget that no one complained during the first 11 September, in 1973, when the greatest democracy in the world killed the democratically elected President of Chile.

The early labor movements were rough, because it was war, and People who stood up against the mine owners were killed, violently.  Anyone want to discuss the real history of Colorado during the late 19th century?

I think we should all agree here that because of its position, and because of the blatancy of its actions, amurka is the most dangerous government to anyone who wants to till their own garden.  That there aren't millions of people in amurka who also want to till their own gardens GOES WITHOUT SAYING.

I miss my friends, i miss my fog, i miss my pretentious wine dinners, but i will not stop making sure that the people who control amurka have their day in the docks.  For what they do today, not for what they've done since they landed there.

Skennah Kowa

by Crazy Horse on Tue Aug 12th, 2008 at 06:52:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
...and your comment to TBG's great comment is also well said.

Never underestimate their intelligence, always underestimate their knowledge.

Frank Delaney ~ Ireland

by siegestate (siegestate or beyondwarispeace.com) on Wed Aug 13th, 2008 at 07:19:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
ThatBritGuy:

In smaller countries the US has been very good at imposing Stalinist-style dictatorships.

We've had a fine time in Europe, more or less, inside the Capital Curtain, but outside life has been rougher - much rougher. If there's one thing I'd take issue with in your diary it's that it's written from a Eurocentric view which doesn't acknowledge that.

Stalin killed c. 43M people.  Pinochet et al may have been bad but they simply weren't in the same league. I have several times acknowledged that Europe prospered under the US dispensation, whilst most overt conflict was pushed to the third world under both the Bipolar and Unipolar systems - Vietnam under the former, Iraq under the latter.  Horrible as these were are, they still don't quite compare with the world wars.

Enslaving people through consumerism and a marketing technology which insidiously makes them dependent on you may be bad - but again, it doesn't compare with the slavery of direct and brutal physical repression.  People can liberate themselves from the former through education and consciousness raising.  Under Stalin and Hitler any opponents - and many innocents - simply did not survive.

At the risk of being accused of being an America lover (sorry Poemless) I would argue that Pax Americana has been a good deal more benign than what preceded it, and what may yet succeed it.  I don't look forward to a world where China, India, Russia, Iran and a much weaker US are fighting increasingly extensive wars for control of remaining oil, food and water supplies...

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Tue Aug 12th, 2008 at 07:08:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes; Stalin killed 43 million people, plus half that amount who died fighting Hitler.

The US killed 2 or 3 million VietNamese, and the puppet game they played of Iraq and Iran since the 50s has killed several several million more, at least 2 million since the 90s. The American dead buried in Johnson's and Nixon's and Reagan's and Bush's graves total a lot fewer by bodycount, but by the count of industry and production that could have gone to creating a more perfect world, the count is metaphysically as high.

Not benign. Something, but not benign. That the US also produces things that do help make a more perfect world just mocks further their loss of soul when they allow their base instincts to be in control.

The worst part is the loss of what could have been, if the power and control had been used for less treacherous purposes.

Power and control are not bad things in and of themselves. But the power and control was used to do with refinement the same things as the pre-WW empire times, make money and empire, but decrease the losses of bodies at home and hide them abroad.

I write that loss of potential is the worst part, but my feelings are that it is the saddest part.

Animal House exposed Stalin (when it wasn't brilliant to do so.) It seems over the top to call out the US and its version of capitalism for the same errors.

There is a vacuum calling out for another Orwellian fairy tale to describe it in a way that exposes it.  Blogging doesn't do it.

Never underestimate their intelligence, always underestimate their knowledge.

Frank Delaney ~ Ireland

by siegestate (siegestate or beyondwarispeace.com) on Wed Aug 13th, 2008 at 07:17:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
great rally, guys!

well-provoked, sven, well-presented frank, fantastic discussion.

Peace is not the absence of war -- peace is the absence of fear. Ursula Franklin

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Wed Aug 13th, 2008 at 08:06:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
siegestate:
The worst part is the loss of what could have been, if the power and control had been used for less treacherous purposes.

I agree, you can't really compare eras and leaders on the basis of raw body count.  The opportunity cost of what could have been - if all the innovations and technology we now have had been put to positive and productive use - is now greater than it has ever been.

In previous eras we didn't have the technology to end famine and disease - now we so, and we use it to wage war.

In purely moral terms, ours is probably the greatest failing.

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Wed Aug 13th, 2008 at 08:07:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
[The US] did impose a consumer-friendly corporate dictatorship where jackboots and military music were replaced by tinkly seductive advertising...

... which was cheaper, but more damaging to resilience in the face of change.

Enslaving people through consumerism and a marketing technology which insidiously makes them dependent on you may be bad - but again, it doesn't compare with the slavery of direct and brutal physical repression.

That depends on the later outcome.
by Ralph on Wed Aug 13th, 2008 at 09:31:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think Frank's writing was slightly positive toward the US.

Sven is a self-admitted provocateur, and the framing he used never leads to positive conversation, so I didn't bother replying when I saw that comment.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Tue Aug 12th, 2008 at 02:01:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I didn't think it was inflammatory, honestly.  Frank's discussions are always in good faith.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Tue Aug 12th, 2008 at 02:23:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I did.

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."
by poemless on Tue Aug 12th, 2008 at 02:52:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The US still provides hope to the oppressed. People are risking life and limb to get into the US, I don't think the same thing can be said of Russia.

Well, I think many countries provide hope to the oppressed.  Middle-Easterners and Africans aren't moving into Europe looking for a shittier life, after all.

But, yes, I'd agree that there are certainly people risking life and limb to get here.

The US still provides most of the leading edge technological innovation, although this is changing. Essentially all the important work in electronics, computers, the internet and communications has come out of the US or been based upon such original work.

I don't know the industry well enough to say, but that's my impression, too.  You're right that it's changing, though.  Certainly countries like Ireland and Israel are more than capable of playing ball these days.

Much biomedical research also has a US basis (or did until recently).

Yes, quite a bit.  Europe, too.

The premise of the US: "all men are created equal", is still unmatched by any other nation. Some have more compassionate social policies, but the idealism taught in civics classes is not as strong.

Um, "Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité"?  Right off the top of my head, I think you're shortchanging France there.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Tue Aug 12th, 2008 at 02:30:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
When you are unemployed and malnourished in an impoverished third world country - any reasonably advanced democracy (or even a more advanced dictatorship) is a big improvement.  But we are talking about raising our game here, not playing down to the lowest common denominator.  I know that universal health care is controversial in the US.  But what's wrong with a global universal healthcare/minimum food supply at a global level?  Is there a universal human right not to be left starving or dying of easily curable diseases?  When the markets do not provide, what do you do?  Tell them to starve and read Rand while they are at it?

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Tue Aug 12th, 2008 at 02:42:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Frank - you heretic! ;-)

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Aug 12th, 2008 at 04:58:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Playing down to the highest common denominator (even reducing it maybe), not the lowest.

"The womb that spawned that thing is fertile yet"
by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Wed Aug 13th, 2008 at 08:07:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
rdf:

Essentially all the important work in electronics, computers, the internet and communications has come out of the US or been based upon such original work.

No, this is completely untrue. The US did some of the original work, but by no means all of it.

The web was invented at CERN by an Englishman. Packet switching was invented in the UK. The original Turing description of state machines which is the basis of modern programming was invented in the UK. The first stored-program computer was built in either the UK or Germany, depending on who you ask. The idea of the integrated circuit was invented in the UK.

What the US had was the resources to develop and monetise these innovations and the evangelical marketing cadres to proselytise them to the rest of the world.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Aug 12th, 2008 at 02:41:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The web was invented at CERN by an Englishman.

Yes, but we're the ones who put porn on it.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Tue Aug 12th, 2008 at 02:49:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm fairly the US also invented credit cards, without which none of this would be possible.
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Aug 12th, 2008 at 04:08:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, it might be possible, but it wouldn't be as awesome.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Tue Aug 12th, 2008 at 04:16:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Credit cards, I think they did (to start with it was just a dining card, valid only in restaurants).

But the chip card was invented in France, marketed in the US alas (the call of money was way too great for the inventor), but France was a much earlier adopter. Even today, there is far greater use of chip cards and contactless cards in France than in the US (Japan has more contactless though -they tend to lead the US and Europe by a few years rather than follow).

Similarly, Minitel was around in France years before the internet became public. Again, it's the lack of opportunity to monetise and impose a standard to the world that made it decay compared to US based alternatives.

"The womb that spawned that thing is fertile yet"

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Wed Aug 13th, 2008 at 08:11:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Dixit Cyrille:
Similarly, Minitel was around in France years before the internet became public. Again, it's the lack of opportunity to monetise and impose a standard to the world that made it decay compared to US based alternatives.

Well, I tend to dissent. There was money and political interest enough, in a way even too much. There has been engaged research. What killed Europe's part in this story was the political clout of the PTTs, which envisioned a closed system – perhaps just for a lack of imagination and not out of outright monopolistic instincts :-)

(I remember, however, the German PTT (Post), obtaining an ordinance banning the use of (packet switched) networks at around the same time that the FCC in the US banned extra charges for the leased lines in such networks. Years later, when you wanted to connect a computer to the telephone network (via a modem), while AT&T send a leaflet with instructions for you, the German Post Office send you the police.)

Then the European Commission – in what appears to be a dry run for the Lisbon program – joined the PTTs in instigating the OSI effort. It apparently intended to obfuscate computer networking enough to confuse the Americans out of the market . . .

There is a funny vestige of this time in the OSI model. There one finds a presentation layer designed to accommodate various encodings. This works only as intended with pure character data, as in a terminal device. It is out of place in most  other situations (and awkward to implement). Amusingly this model has found much pedagogical use.

So, I'm afraid, the Minitel was down a blind alley (what it promised would later become the Web-Browser).
An American Minitel or IPhone would have failed as well, then. (Cf., for a discussion of the recent trend towards web-appliances the book The future of the Internet and how to stop it/ Jonathan Zittrain. New Haven, c2008. )

by Humbug (mailklammeraffeschultedivisstrackepunktde) on Wed Aug 13th, 2008 at 06:06:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, you're probably right, but my impression was that one reason they wanted to close the system because the alternative was USA reaping all the rewards without suffering any of the costs.

Now, indeed closing it was not going to give you a massive expansion such as the web saw, but it would be unfair to say that Minitel did not significantly contribute to the internet. It saw the creation of many online businesses, with a business model that was far more credible than a lot of the dot coms startups.

"The womb that spawned that thing is fertile yet"

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Thu Aug 14th, 2008 at 03:55:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I also seem (belatedly) to detect a very nice and subtle irony in the "without which none of this would be possible".

Suffice to say it's probably not a compliment ;-)

Hint for those who truly need it: credit bubble anyone?

"The womb that spawned that thing is fertile yet"

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Wed Aug 13th, 2008 at 08:12:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yep, but US companies registered all the domain names so that if a European Company wanted to go online it had to pay for the right to use its own name.  US Companies are also starting to patent the genome - something I would have thought was everyone's birthright.  US courts consistently support US companies against "foreign" interests.  Other national jurisdictions often do the same.  But being the dominant world power gives you the ability to create an uphill playing field for everyone else.  Much of the US economic dominance was predicated on military/political dominance.  "US" interests often being defined by US multi-nationals.

Now the energy situation is re-tilting the playing pitch in favour of net energy producers and you can hear the outrage of the neo-cons that they are having to pay what somebody else decides is a fair price.  Even military intervention isn't enough to maintain that dominance any more.  

The reality is the rules will increasingly be written by others.  This is a recipe for huge and sustained international conflict unless a system of global governance can be put in place which takes the interests of all the players into account.

The EU is a model of how that can be done at a regional level.  We probably need to do it at a global level if the post WW2 era of relative peace and prosperity is not going to break down irrevocably.

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Tue Aug 12th, 2008 at 02:54:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'll second thatbritguy's comment. Though there's no question that US innovation has added much to today's existence, so have other regions, just as significantly.  Hell, even MP3 comes from Deutschland.

The framing around the discussion is not accurate, however.  US institutions themselves are in serious decline, as is the infrastructure.  Japan and Europe have far more advanced phone and mobile networks, and the regional grids are not decrepit. Rail innovation, so crucial to the next generation, is also far more developed.

The US democracy is so broken as to be a joke.  Voter fraud is the most sophisticated in the world, and has a history going back two centuries.  The influence of capital in the game has reached absurd levels.  The Fourth Estate has become the world's most sophisticated propaganda network.

Where other regions really shine is in current technological innovation.  The kind of innovation which matters to the next generation's survival.  Renewable technologies, for example, are a complete product of European innovation; now even including the commercial aspects globally.  Compare that to Detroit.  Even GE's US market leading wind turbine is German, and the leading German machine in the US, Siemens, is Danish.  The rest come from Japan, Spain, India and other European entries.  Even the most capitalized US startup uses technology from the Swedish wind program.

Same with solar.

I have direct personal experience with how US courts denied obvious prior art in European technology, while the US company that "won" was bankrupt within two years.  The technology is still withheld from the US, and it is the premier technology in my field.  Justice is available to corporations and the rich, and that's it.

There's no question there's still much innovation to come from amurka, but not likely until the beast is battered and the nation is digging out from its own financial meltdown.

Amurka is a dinosaur, but it still drives the world's condition, today mostly negatively.  

Skennah Kowa

by Crazy Horse on Tue Aug 12th, 2008 at 03:48:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Japan and Europe have far more advanced phone and mobile networks, and the regional grids are not decrepit.

The iPhone's cheaper here, though. :P

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Tue Aug 12th, 2008 at 04:19:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Not if you count getting dropped off 3G far less often.

Skennah Kowa
by Crazy Horse on Tue Aug 12th, 2008 at 06:24:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
LINUX is not from the US. The internet runs on linux boxes by and large.
by irishhead on Wed Aug 13th, 2008 at 11:24:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Linux is not Linus Torvalds and thus Finnish. It is an international project, of which American developers play a large role.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Wed Aug 13th, 2008 at 02:26:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's correct. And still they don't count more than the, say, Brazilians.

That's new, and satisfying.

by Humbug (mailklammeraffeschultedivisstrackepunktde) on Wed Aug 13th, 2008 at 08:25:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The Linux kernel was written and named by Finn Torvalds (1991).The utilities and libraries were written by US hacker Richard Stallman by 1983,  for his GNU OS. Many nationalities have contributed to the development of Linux.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Aug 14th, 2008 at 07:27:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"Just what contribution has the US been making to the current world order, and how might that contribution be improved?" and "The real question is whether we can create a better, fairer and more stable world order as the American empire declines."

I've lived the past 33 years in California; the first 23 years in upstate NY; 1.5 years in Anal-noise (poemless's neighborhood; a genuine pit).

Of what I have seen of the US first hand and through the media, the best thing the US can do is GO EXTINCT so that CA can become its own country unencumbered by the likes of Miss.,Ala, Tenn. etc.  Oregon, Wash, Hawaii ... they're cool.  ".. as the American empire declines." ... LOVE the sound of that.  Hurry up and let the door hit you in the ass on the way out!

McCain/Palin ... total sacks of SHIT!

by THE Twank (paszeski__aaaaaaatttttt__yahoo.com) on Tue Aug 12th, 2008 at 02:31:14 PM EST
Anal-noise (poemless's neighborhood; a genuine pit).

Honestly, what has gotten into everyone?  I come to ET precisely to avoid this kind of commentary.

 

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."

by poemless on Tue Aug 12th, 2008 at 02:48:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, poemless, you must just be jealous that Illinois doesn't have a governor who can explain Bush administration policy in the original German. ;)

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Tue Aug 12th, 2008 at 03:07:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's pretty big talk on California considering your state is effectively bankrupt and being crushed by a housing bubble unlike anything we could have imagined out here in the sticks.

Yes, if only we filthy proles outside of Cali could replicate it.  I'll pass.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Tue Aug 12th, 2008 at 02:54:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Now, now children.  First you accuse me of being provocative and now you're throwing mud pies at each other! Let's all grow up and have a sensible adult discussion about this....

Let's start with the proposition that the US is the greatest nation of all time.  Now what do we do when it is challenged by other kids on the block (with nuclear weapons) who are becoming just as economically powerful (but who may not have e "western" concept of human rights etc.).

Now do you think that its a good idea to introduce some effective global governance (in preference to nuclear war) whilst you are still in a position to lay down many of the ground rules?

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Tue Aug 12th, 2008 at 03:07:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's tradition in America for their to be a love-hate relationship between Californians, New Yorkers and the rest of us.

And we throw apple pies, not mud pies, you communist. ;)

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Tue Aug 12th, 2008 at 03:11:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
for their to be

"...for there to be...."  Gah.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Tue Aug 12th, 2008 at 03:12:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Happens everywhere - most nationalism is based on similar sentiments - but it gets dangerous when some participants start taking it very seriously - cf South Ossetia/Georgia.  It took a civil war to establish the primacy of the Fed Government to sort out inter-state disputes - and two world wars to establish structures to handle similar problems in Europe.  What's it going to take on a global level?

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Tue Aug 12th, 2008 at 03:20:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What's it going to take on a global level?

A survivable alien invasion that doesn't damage civilization beyond repair. No, I'm not kidding. It's the only kind of "us vs. them" narrative that can forge a human identity in a short period of time (short meaning less than several centuries). We've had very limited success creating meaningful movement beyond national identity, and the crisis we are facing today do not provide the "humans vs. external threat x" narrative we need to do so. They do almost the opposite - they are perfect for reinforcing national identity, and if there is a breakdown of civilization, identity will fracture back to smaller regional and local units.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Tue Aug 12th, 2008 at 03:35:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The US has a serious invasion myth thing going. Whether it's BattleStar Galactica or V or 9/11 or any one of hundreds or other examples - there's almost no other culture in history with quite such a rich but oddly synonymous mythology of evil invaders (followed by a war of survival and independence) to choose from.

British fiction is full of despair and decaying motorways. The last time anyone tried to invade us they were martians and they had their gelatinous asses kicked by the Edwardian common cold.

Even in the run up to WWII, there was no serious invasion fiction to speak of.

Also Europe - really not invasion minded. There's probably a West German Cold War novel about life under after the Soviets languishing somewhere, but that never seems to figured as part of the quasi-superstate's psyche.

So what is with the US? You keep fighting the same wars over and over - sometimes in fiction, sometimes in reality.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Aug 12th, 2008 at 04:23:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's those bastards out West with their crazy alien shit they dream up 'cause they don't have water.  AT can tell you.

Look at John McCain and Peyote Bill.

And you can't tell me Cindy doesn't look a little out of this world.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Tue Aug 12th, 2008 at 04:29:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In fairness, the US virtually invented aliens - as in Roswell.  They are a very important embodiment of the fear of otherness that drives US societal cohesion and conformity to dominant norms.  Hell those communists and now those terrorists just aren't up to the job of keeping  the country united against them.  No wonder there's talk of Californian secession.  Did Texas ever actually join the Union?

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Tue Aug 12th, 2008 at 04:44:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Frank was more or less asking what it would take to achieve world peace. In my opinion, that requires a human identity that supersedes all other identities.

If we had, say, another 25 generations in this current "want not" environment, I think it would be achievable. All the behaviors that were good for survival in a local, low energy, and short term context could be expunged - most forms of violence including sexual violence, wars of conquest, etc, etc, could be eliminated.

We don't have that much time, though - which is why I believe the only way to unite humanity in a short period of time is through an external threat. If you have an alternative, please present it, rather than going off on an unrelated tangent about what nutters "we" are.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Tue Aug 12th, 2008 at 06:08:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't think twenty five generations would do it.

Rounding up every child who showed signs of excessive dysfunctional aggression or narcissism and seriously impoverishing the rich would do it. The rich do often seem to grow up with a sense of entitlement and disconnection from reality, so forcing them to live in that reality would create some changes.

It's not a practical answer either, but it's possibly more practical than aliens are.

My point about aliens was that all you'd get then is just another fantasy war scenario - it wouldn't be the human identity you were looking for, just a different enemy to hate and fear. I.e. business as usual.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Aug 12th, 2008 at 07:08:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's not a practical answer either, but it's possibly more practical than aliens are.

I agree. A neonatal diagnostic test for narcissistic and borderline personality disorders is possible someday, though.

My point about aliens was that all you'd get then is just another fantasy war scenario - it wouldn't be the human identity you were looking for, just a different enemy to hate and fear. I.e. business as usual.

Ok, sorry for the overreaction then. I agree with your point.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Tue Aug 12th, 2008 at 08:00:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
MillMan:
I agree. A neonatal diagnostic test for narcissistic and borderline personality disorders is possible someday, though.

Or not.

What evidence do you have that these disorders are present at birth?

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Wed Aug 13th, 2008 at 06:35:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
None. I said "someday" because neuroscience is pointing us in that direction.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Wed Aug 13th, 2008 at 07:04:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
These are psychological groupings, which may or may not map consistently in terms of neurology (my bias being on the may not side). In either case, even if there is a good mapping, it does not need to be present at birth. It can be something that only materialises during growth.
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Wed Aug 13th, 2008 at 07:57:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
For any condition I'm assuming there is a continuum across the population from absolute genetic determination to zero genetic determination, with environment playing the odds for all the non-absolute cases. If true I have no guess as to what the distribution would look like.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Wed Aug 13th, 2008 at 08:35:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
From what I have read in the literature there may be some genetic predisposition that favors narcissistic and borderline conditions, but the predominant factors are environmental, especially the nature and quality of parenting.  There is a lot if indication that it takes both predisposition and bad parenting/bad environment to produce the more notable bad outcomes. And a lot of what may once have been considered genetic may well be epi-genetic environmental programming, including environmental toxins along with behavioral toxins.

If sanity be culturally normative, then by the norms of this culture I claim insanity.
by ARGeezer (argeezer a in a circle yahoo dot com) on Sat Aug 16th, 2008 at 01:17:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Rounding up every child who showed signs of excessive dysfunctional aggression or narcissism and seriously impoverishing the rich would do it.

Wasn't that first bit an actual Labour proposal at some point?

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Tue Aug 12th, 2008 at 10:37:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Dunno - but early diagnosis of childhood developmental conditions such as ADHT is always beneficial in therapeutic terms and cost effective in health care terms.  However I don't really see the relevance in terms of the structural political analysis I have been trying to conduct here - countries don't go to war because they fail to treat their narcissistic/dysfunctional children - they go to war because of a failure of leadership to provide appropriate structures to resolve conflicts of interest and the many other excuses that are trumped up to create casus belli.

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Wed Aug 13th, 2008 at 06:52:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Most leaders - and certainly all of the most dangerous and destructive ones - are clinical narcissists and/or sociopaths.

Further down the scale, the most 'successful' business and finance types are milder versions of the same syndrome. Wall St selects for them on the basis of being 'hungry' and aggressive enough to go after killer deals without any interest in the consequences for people whose lives are affected by them.

We really only have one planetary problem, and that's how to deal with these people to prevent them hurting themselves and others. Without this particular form of mental illness, politics and economics would be very much more straightforward. It would certainly be much easier to deal with almost every issue in a realistic way.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Wed Aug 13th, 2008 at 07:01:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
bingo cubed!

it's a mental/spiritual disease, stemming from not enough love and security.

all monsters are created this way.

Peace is not the absence of war -- peace is the absence of fear. Ursula Franklin

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Wed Aug 13th, 2008 at 08:03:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
countries don't go to war because they fail to treat their narcissistic/dysfunctional children

with all due respect frank, i think you are 180° wrong on this.

who teaches kids to hate and become narcissistic?

Peace is not the absence of war -- peace is the absence of fear. Ursula Franklin

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Wed Aug 13th, 2008 at 07:39:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
melo:
who teaches kids to hate and become narcissistic?

Bad parents and teachers do.  However I have always been amazed at the resilience of kids in even the worst circumstances - kids whose parents were drug addicts, sociopaths, who were sexually abused, beaten, starved or who caught up in gangs.  Many are damaged for life but many also survive and grow into remarkable adults.  

I think we are in danger of a logical fallacy here.  Just because some kids are dysfunctional and some leaders are dysfunctional doesn't mean that one caused the other. We select/elect our leaders according to certain societal norms and with special interests trying to exert their influence.  But who, ultimately, is responsible for those that make it to the top?

We are.

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Wed Aug 13th, 2008 at 08:57:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
However I have always been amazed at the resilience of kids in even the worst circumstances - kids whose parents were drug addicts, sociopaths, who were sexually abused, beaten, starved or who caught up in gangs.  Many are damaged for life but many also survive and grow into remarkable adults.

yup, you're right on that, however they are the exception, not the rule.

the other side of the coin is that many with this disease are hidden in plain sight, in niches where their pathology can run amok in many many tiny ways, utterly lacking the unsubtle grandiosity of the cartoon arch-villains we love to point to.

it's my contention that the accumulative effect of these petty barbarities constitutes hannah arendt's famous banality of evil, cutting in to the moral grain of society with a million daily cuts, each too small to grok... until you consider the effect en masse.

Bad parents and teachers do.

actually i feel that parents and teachers flail helplessly to mitigate socio-cultural currents of mad-ave, totally amoral, self-as-little-godling narcissism.

totally overwhelmed by the tsunami of media babble, peer pressure has become the only guiding light for many young people, haplessly devoid of any guidance or wisdom from their elders, who find themselves too morally rootless, flummoxed by the dizzy rate of change, to offer much in the way of advice.

it worked for great grandpa, and grandpa, started coming unglued for me, and as for you, son, well good luck to you making a life in the psychic rubble you've inherited from our colossally ignorant malfaisance.

oo, look what's on telly tonight!

Peace is not the absence of war -- peace is the absence of fear. Ursula Franklin

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Wed Aug 13th, 2008 at 02:19:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I must be really lucky.  My kids keep me on the straight and narrow.  Daaaaaaad  you've had enough wine!

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Wed Aug 13th, 2008 at 03:32:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
MillMan:
If we had, say, another 25 generations in this current "want not" environment, I think it would be achievable.

First of all, we don't have a "want not" environment for the vast majority of people in the world, and are even less likely to have one in the future as the world population continues to expand.

Second - it is precisely the opposite - a badly wanting environment which leads to change - not a complacent self satisfaction that comes from having it all.

Thus what major changes in the global order we have seen - League of Nations, United Nations, Nuclear non-proliferation, World Trade Organisation, World Bank, World Health etc. etc. have become precisely because of terrible wars, famines, disease and deprivations or the threat of same.

If you want change, people have to be convinced that the status quo is no longer tenable - and they usually arrive at that conviction far too late to avoid the most terrible of events.

Yes, it probably will take a nuclear war to convince the world that we need much stronger global governance.  A few million dead here or there in Africa simply doesn't cut it.  Rwanda?  Where's that.  A little local difficulty.  Nothing to be too concerned about?  Zimbabwe - hardly worth a Security Council resolution.

This diary is predicated on the forlorn notion that it should take another world war, or climate collapse, or 100s of Millions of dead from starvation to convince people we need to progress the development of more cooperative and collegial law based global governance systems.

Unfortunately even here on ET such a notion seems to evoke little more than scorn and derision.

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Tue Aug 12th, 2008 at 07:24:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thus what major changes in the global order we have seen - League of Nations, United Nations, Nuclear non-proliferation, World Trade Organisation, World Bank, World Health etc. etc. have become precisely because of terrible wars, famines, disease and deprivations or the threat of same.

I think you're taking the historian's view that change is caused by singular events. I believe singular events are only a catalyst.

The component of human behavior that is formed through the environment has a limit to how much it can change from generation to generation. The number of generations needed for a particular behavior to change can be very large, even when the environmental conditions that led to the original behavior are no longer present. Thus my "25 generations" comment.

This diary is predicated on the forlorn notion that it should take another world war, or climate collapse, or 100s of Millions of dead from starvation to convince people we need to progress the development of more cooperative and collegial law based global governance systems.

If you're referring to change that can happen within our lifetimes, then yes, shock therapy is our only hope. I think we obsess over that time frame more than we should.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Wed Aug 13th, 2008 at 04:09:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
takes my reeading back to the 80's

Watchmen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In a lengthy monologue, Adrian explains his early worship of Alexander the Great, which later turned to admiration of Rameses II (whose Greek name was Ozymandias); his realization that the current arms race and disregard for the environment would lead to cataclysm by the 1990s; his belief that someone must save the world, and that only he could do so; and finally, that the crux of his plan is to teleport a genetically-engineered telepathic monstrosity into New York City, a process that will kill the monster and cause it to emit a massive psychic shockwave that will kill half the city and drive many of the survivors insane. Adrian believes that America and Russia, perceiving an extraterrestrial threat, will abandon their arms race and unite in defense of their planet.


Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Wed Aug 13th, 2008 at 09:14:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Frank Schnittger:
...the US is the greatest nation of all time...

By what standards? When I look at their prisons, and their amount af money invested in armies and weapons, the USA is indeed the greatest of all times.

But then I go to read poemless' diary: I Don't Care Why. The USA lost every bit of credibility...

The struggle of man against tyranny is the struggle of memory against forgetting.(Kundera)

by Elco B (elcob at scarlet dot be) on Tue Aug 12th, 2008 at 03:31:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What?

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."
by poemless on Tue Aug 12th, 2008 at 03:39:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Let's start with the proposition that the US is the greatest nation of all time.

Why should we?  That's ludicrous, and polarizing.  Let's start with the fact that the US is big, huge, has lots of people, lots of money, lots of bombs, more of all of those things than a lot of the other countries, except the other global hobgoblins like China, Russia.  Like those countries, we win a lot of Olympic medals, as we're crazy competitive and proud.  So we have a lot of tangible and intangible resources for controlling the game.  The idea that America is exceptional is part myth (embraced around the world) and part just plain default.  As much as you call us names, it's not going to change.

Fortunately, our policy for letting other people get in on the action is one of the best in the world.  You can even wear a headscarf.

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."

by poemless on Tue Aug 12th, 2008 at 03:55:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
poemless:
The idea that America is exceptional is part myth (embraced around the world) and part just plain default.  As much as you call us names, it's not going to change.
sigh.  First you knock me for criticising the US. Now you knock me for praising it.  I just don't seem to be able to get it right!  

I think the idea that America is exceptional is dying fast around the world.  Bush killed it. Opinion polls around the world have shown many regard the US as a greater danger to peace than ANYONE else.  You are in danger of believing your own propaganda.

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Tue Aug 12th, 2008 at 04:53:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I am?  Are you joking?

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."
by poemless on Tue Aug 12th, 2008 at 04:54:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I am knocking you for dealing in connotations and ideas and myths and judgements and VAST generalizations and good v. bad, and not in facts.  There's nothing constructive in this line of argument.  Nada.  You're just completely missing my point.  Every time you base arguments on these things, you're perpetuating the very faulty thinking you accuse America of.  Except, you think, since you are not American you can't be implicated.  It's sheer perversity.  No wonder this never gets anywhere.

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."
by poemless on Tue Aug 12th, 2008 at 04:58:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You are getting down the the real problem here...

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Aug 12th, 2008 at 05:03:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Any Diary which attempts to summarise the development of the world political system over the past century in a thousand words is going to be a gross oversimplification.  However you haven't even attempted an alternative analysis.  You are right - I haven't seen any point or consistent line of argument in what you have written here - thankfully not a characteristic of your writing elsewhere.  Neither do I think you have grasped the argument I am trying to make in this diary - perhaps because I haven't made it very well.  Either way I think its best to leave our discussion at that before the insults get even more personal.

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Tue Aug 12th, 2008 at 05:54:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Now now, what other state could this song apply to?  NEBRASKA?!



McCain/Palin ... total sacks of SHIT!

by THE Twank (paszeski__aaaaaaatttttt__yahoo.com) on Tue Aug 12th, 2008 at 04:33:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And lest we forget:

SO THERE!  HAH!

McCain/Palin ... total sacks of SHIT!

by THE Twank (paszeski__aaaaaaatttttt__yahoo.com) on Tue Aug 12th, 2008 at 04:38:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, I'd first say that REM is from Georgia, not California.  Not sure where you see references to California.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Tue Aug 12th, 2008 at 04:47:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]