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Monday Open Thread

by Jerome a Paris
Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 12:00:01 PM EST

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yes, I'm on holiday...

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 12:01:00 PM EST
Not I, but tied up with a family birthday.

Will try to post Salon at the usual time, but may be latish.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 12:26:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hopefully you can relax a bit and use the down time, so when you return it's with renewed vigor and perception.  (As if you needed any more.)  Enjoy!


Skennah Kowa
by Crazy Horse on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 12:36:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

A Truman for our times

The received wisdom is that President Bush has been a foreign policy disaster, and that America is threatened by the rise of Asia. Both claims are wrong--Bush has successfully rolled back jihadism, and the US will benefit from Asian growth

by Edward Luttwak

(...)

How did this same Harry Truman come to be universally viewed as a great president, especially for his foreign policy? It is all a question of time perspectives: the Korean war is half forgotten, while everyone now knows that Truman's strategy of containment was successful and finally ended with the almost peaceful disintegration of the Soviet empire.

For Bush to be recognised as a great president in the Truman mould, the Iraq war too must become half forgotten. The swift removal of the murderous Saddam Hussein was followed by years of expensive violence instead of the instant democracy that had been promised. To confuse the imam-ridden Iraqis with Danes or Norwegians under German occupation, ready to return to democracy as soon as they were liberated, was not a forgivable error: before invading a country, a US president is supposed to know if it is in the middle east or Scandinavia.

Yet the costly Iraq war must also be recognised as a sideshow in the Bush global counteroffensive against Islamist militancy, just as the far more costly Korean war was a sideshow to global cold war containment. For the Bush response to 9/11 was precisely that--a global attack against the ideology of Islamic militancy. While anti-terrorist operations have been successful here and there in a patchy way, and the fate of Afghanistan remains in doubt, the far more important ideological war has ended with a spectacular global victory for President Bush.

There's a lot more that needs to be debunked in that article, like the conclusion:


Will Russia advance towards Putin's promised authoritarianism, or will it persist as a unique specimen of centrally administered gangsterism? The US would be weakened by a coherently authoritarian Russia, with its readiness to use oil and gas reserves as diplomatic levers. But in fact the influence of the US in Europe is increasing with each passing day thanks to the gangsterism that infects Kremlin behaviour--the crude threats to supplies, the abrupt closure of highways, and even nuclear sabre-rattling.

Will the increasing decentralisation of Europe into regions and even quasi-states such as Catalonia and Scotland weaken the old national states sufficiently to allow the emergence of a strong pan-European government? That would also weaken the US, which now acts as Europe's only functioning co-ordinator for all that is military and diplomatic. It is also wildly unlikely in this century.

It is not personal shortcomings that prevent Friedman, Zakaria and co from addressing such questions. It is their method that is wrong, for it relies on two substitutes for systematic research: brief journeys to visit foreign parts that are mostly occupied by meetings with locals who speak English, and international conferences, like the Davos jamboree, which are frequented by the same locals, now on their own brief visits to foreign parts. This encourages the recirculation of clichés that usurp the place of considered thought.

In any case, not even Zakaria can discern any evidence that the spirit of discovery and invention that has made the US and the rest of the west so powerful is being relinquished. If anything, the opposite seems to be true. Even for the Olympics the Chinese relied on celebrity western architects to design the signature buildings. It is western modernity that has been emerging in spectacular fashion in China and elsewhere around the hard-working world, not any locally invented version. And the US is set to remain the chief source of western innovation, not least because its population is younger, and its society more flexible, than Europe's. On to the next boom therefore, when today's bust will be forgotten, along with the instant Davos books.



In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 12:05:26 PM EST
I think you shouldn't waste your time debunking papers coming from this author:

Edward Luttwak - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

On May 12, 2008, the New York Times published an opinion piece by Luttwak which claimed that U.S. presidential candidate Barack Obama, who has identified himself as a Christian, was instead Muslim by birth because his father's family was of that religion.[


"Ne te courbe que pour aimer..." René Char
by Melanchthon on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 12:22:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Deposit insurance that draws on City strengths

We have an opportunity to reshape the deposit insurance arrangements for UK banks using an approach that has long strengthened London as a financial centre. Applying proven models of mutuality can align the interests of banks, regulators and depositors and make our deposit insurance scheme more robust, cost-effective and capital efficient, thereby increasing London's competitive edge.

(...)

Our preferred model for deposit insurance makes use of the "chain of security" activated in solving the recent crisis at the Society of Lloyd's, a market which has never defaulted a claim in over 300 years despite periods of huge stress. This approach recognises that deposit insurance is a backstop to protections embodied in Financial Services Authority regulation of bank capital and conduct of business, and Bank of England liquidity facilities to bridge short-term liquidity stress. Deposit insurance, when needed, should swiftly pay claims to depositors, spreading the liquidity impact and costs not only within the UK banking community but also more widely to the global insurance markets.

A Deposit Insurance Fund on the Lloyd's model would have tiered funding components: modest premium levies and subordinated debt for a cash reserve; a callable levy up to a fixed percentage of eligible bank insured deposits in the event of a claim exceeding the reserve; insurance of excess liabilities in catastrophe insurance markets, possibly combined with issuance of long-term debt; and a statutory preference against assets of the failed bank under the proposed Special Resolution Regime to repay any debt, levies and costs borne by the Deposit Insurance Fund.

One of the authors is someone I know.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 12:09:29 PM EST
Has this been posted here yet?  

Merkel backing for Georgia

GERMANY'S Chancellor Angela Merkel assured Georgia yesterday that it would join Nato as she strongly backed the former Soviet republic in its conflict with Russia.

"Georgia will become a member of Nato if it wants to -- and it does want to," she told reporters before talks with Georgian president Mikheil Saakashvili in the capital, Tbilisi.

It was one of the strongest statements of support yet for Georgia's Nato membership bid, which is fiercely opposed by Russia.

Merkel was in Tbilisi to support Saakashvili and press for the withdrawal of Russian troops who attacked Georgia on August 8 to repulse an offensive by Georgian troops to regain control of a Moscow-backed separatist region, South Ossetia.

She was the latest world leader to visit Georgia -- which has repeatedly appealed for Western support -- after trips by French president Nicolas Sarkozy and US secretary of state Condoleezza Rice.




"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."
by poemless on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 12:09:35 PM EST
and it's downright scary.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 12:13:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I feel so better leaving everything to Europe.  

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."
by poemless on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 12:17:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Europe does not exist on the foreign policy front, and it won't exist as long as it doesn't find a way to express common interests beyond supporting the US.

I'll note that those that try to express autonomous interests are immediately labelled traitors or cowards or anti-American, which surely does not help.

I'll also note that those that don't express autonomous interests often do so against the explicit wishes of their population.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 12:28:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Why?  Oh, so many unanswered questions.  But why the continued (heck- seems to be growing) pro-USA stance in Europe?  What have we done for you lately?  Is it that you just need us to protect you militarily?  By doing that, and relying on Russia for energy, Europe really seems to be tying its hands behind its back...

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."
by poemless on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 12:41:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What do you think? A new poll has support for the missile shield in Poland almost doubling from the low thirties to the high fifties.
by MarekNYC on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 01:06:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But why the continued (heck- seems to be growing) pro-USA stance in Europe?

Is the answer not obvious by now?  Surely it's clear that the European leadership -- an oxymoron? -- generally (not always, but generally) does what our leaders tell it to do, and then turns around to bitch and complain about our leaders in an effort to cover its collective ass, politically.  Rinse and repeat.

They're like the Democrats, except that Europe doesn't even wind up winning anything when things go to shit.

Let's call it what it is and stop pretending that the leadership across the Pond is something to really admire, no matter how fucked up things are here (and, yes, our leadership is even worse).  At least Putin's got the brains and balls to look out for his interests.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 01:21:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Drew, you are an island of sanity in a sea madmen.

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."
by poemless on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 01:23:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I appreciate that.  But sanity?  Let's not go overboard. ;)

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 01:28:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And you should. Europe is not pro-Russia in this conflict, but sufficiently neutral. There is not only the danger, that Europe isn't accepted in Russia as mediator, but as well in Georgia.
More over Steinmeier is the pro-Russian guy in the gov and Merkel one of those pro-US eastern Europeans along Poland, Czech Republic and so on. And still she has not demanded Russia to withdraw its troops from South Ossetia or Abkhazia (as e.g. Condi Rice has).

So far we don't know how this all plays out, but I'm reasonable optimistic, that it all ends with one dark eye for each party not living in Georgia. In a panel discussion linked in one of Jerome's dkos diaries, there a former US ambassador said, most likely the EU as a whole would be dragged towards the eastern European line. Usually compromises are made on most issues, but fear of existence would not be negotiable. Russia has to do a better job in explaining itself in the public as well.
I think that western European countries will do some symbolic condemning of Russia, but before the high commercial interests are sacrificed, there has to happen something more. Sometimes greed is good.

Lich King/Caribou Barbie 08
Pain brings Katharsis

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 12:36:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Europe is not pro-Russia in this conflict, but sufficiently neutral.  

Pro-NATO (a.k.a. US military supremacy) enlargement is not "sufficiently neutral."  You've picked a side.  Russia's not on it.

with one dark eye for each party not living in Georgia.

Uhm, one of the main parties in this crisis IS Georgia.  They are not held responsible?

the EU as a whole would be dragged towards the eastern European line.  

You were dragged toward the eastern European line when you approved the membership of eastern European nations...   Not opposing the missile shields isn't exactly dragging the EU westward, either.  

Sometimes greed is good.

George W. Bush would agree with you.

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."

by poemless on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 12:49:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Uhm, one of the main parties in this crisis IS Georgia.  They are not held responsible?

Georgia will not come out of this conflict only with a dark eye. Georgia has already taken a major hit. Journalists on the ground have reported about paramilitary groups coming along with the regular armies (on both sides). I lay the blame for the mess on both sides. The Russian reaction to the Georgian provocation was disproportionate. Georgia is severely punished by the actual damage done both in human loss and in infrastructural  damage. Furthermore it seems now very unlikely, that Georgia will reach national unity. The price Georgia will have to pay for western integration will be the independence of Abkhazia and South Ossetia. What kind of 'holding responsible' do you wish for Georgia?

Pro-NATO (a.k.a. US military supremacy) enlargement is not "sufficiently neutral."  You've picked a side.  Russia's not on it.
Nope. NATO in this part of the world is not about US military supremacy. Eastern Europeans lobby in Washington for a more hawkish position against Russia. And their possible contributions to military adventures in the world seem to me to be rather limited.
There is no indication that NATO would integrate a country with border disputes with Moscow. Turkey was promised EU membership since the 70s and it isn't a member today. So to say Georgia will be one day in NATO isn't taking a side on the issue currently in dispute. It is just in line with the latest NATO decisions of Bucharest.

You were dragged toward the eastern European line when you approved the membership of eastern European nations...   Not opposing the missile shields isn't exactly dragging the EU westward, either.
There was some verbal opposition to the missile shield, but legally it is of course an bilateral issue between the US and the countries where the shield is installed.  And the shield is no real threat for Russia. The shield doesn't make strategic sense, except for a massive nuclear first strike. No POTUS will be that insane. With the integration of the eastern Europeans, well there was hope for a different development. You have to keep in mind, that from 1945 to 1998 Germany, the strongest advocate of EU east integration, has not fought in a single war. The whole idea, that military alliances are more important than market access and subsidies was for many, let's say, unthinkable.
So actually I would have thought, that if it comes ever to an issue of pure loyality for the new EU members between old Europe and the USA, I would have expected a clear decision for old Europe. By now, we know, that the clear opposite is true. In this panel discussion I mentioned, there was as well the notion, that many western European diplomats wished, even before the actual crisis, they never had granted eastern Europeans EU membership. However, now it is too late, to redo this.

George W. Bush would agree with you.
Sure. But that doesn't make it wrong. I think as well that good intentions and dumbness can be more dangerous than not so good intentions aligned with competence.
Bush's presidency has been extremely unprofitable for the US as a whole.


Lich King/Caribou Barbie 08
Pain brings Katharsis

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 01:20:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The shield doesn't make strategic sense, except for a massive nuclear first strike. No POTUS will be that insane.

Oh, dear.  If you believe that, man, have I got a bridge to sell you.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 01:26:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What part, that there is no different strategic use, or that you believe a POTUS can be that insane?

Lich King/Caribou Barbie 08
Pain brings Katharsis
by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 01:28:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The nuclear first strike and the idea that no POTUS is that crazy.  You're not familiar with the Republican nominee, I take it?

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 01:31:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Everything in this comment suggest that you are under the impression that NATO is some defacto, neutral, organic organization with honest and fair intentions.  It is not.  Giving Georgia NATO membership IS taking sides, precisely because NATO is a side.  You may be of the impression that it is not, but even in a mythic world where that were correct, Russia still believes it to be so.  And if, as you assert, Europe is treating Russia fairly, they simply must take into account Russia's very valid position.  NATO is a military alliance.  Military alliances exist on the assumption that there is a shared enemy, and persist in making certain there is one.  

Please explain to me how rewarding Georgia with NATO membership and, what's on the platter?, punishing Russia by kicking it out of the G8, WTO, taking away their UNSC vote, or cancelling the Olympics is in any way symbolic of giving Georgia two black eyes and Russia one.  Talk about disproportionate response.  

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."

by poemless on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 01:42:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
that promising membership is not necessarily the same thing as granting membership, and suggests that this is maybe what Germany is doing.

I tend to agree with you that even promising membership today is a step too far, but I see a tiny bit of hope in Martin's point (which can certainly be communicated discreetly to the Russians).

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 01:49:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In addition to mentioning Turkey's situation, he also wrote the following:

NATO in this part of the world is not about US military supremacy.

(...)

So to say Georgia will be one day in NATO isn't taking a side on the issue currently in dispute.

The first seems a bit problematic.  There are not two different NATOs.  And NATO in my part of the world is about the US mucking about in your part of the world.  

The second is just untrue.  Even if they have no intention of keeping their word, just putting that out there does impact the situation by strengthening the perceived merit & necessity of NATO as a cold war organization, and by drawing a line in the sand between us and them, when the reality and hence best way to deal with the Georgian-Russian situation is to acknowledge that in many ways it is a them-them problem just this side of civil war, and in many ways it is an us-us situation, because, esp. for Europe, there are real strategic reasons to be invested in the security and stability of both Russia and the US.

Even if they ARE just talking about NATO to make Georgia feel better and keep Saak from freaking out and doing something stupid again, what are they telling Russia to make them feel better and keep them doing something stupid again?  Even empty promises are still placating one party and warning the other and creating a self-fulfilling assertion, where if Russia already was acting out of line, they see there is little to be gained with following the rules, since different standards are going to be applied to them anyway.  What incentives are we giving them not to make dangerous decisions in the future?  What incentives are we giving Georgia?  

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."

by poemless on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 02:13:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Also, and this is not a rhetorical question, can someone please explain to me on what grounds could Russia have it's G8, WTO or UNSC status revoked?  America invaded a country that did nothing to provoke it, committed attrocities that would make the looting of Gori look downright generous, and we've not left for 5 years, as opposed to a few days.  How the hell do we still have our G8, WTO or UNSC status?  When are you guys going to decide to punish US?!

Honest to God, I can't blame Russia at all for refusing to play our stupid reindeer games should it come to that.

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."

by poemless on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 02:24:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Again, I think you'll find Cheney behind this. He's been at Georgia for a couple of years now at least. It is all a sham: Poland, Ukraine, everything. It has all been deliberate provocation on some global chess board, divorced from reality. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

What is really outrageous is the way European leaders jumped on board. I don't see how Russia could have reacted any differently. In fact they underplayed it.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 02:45:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I had the first harsh words in years with a business colleague, 3 days ago. He was for Finland joining NATO. I am totally against it.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 02:47:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Kremlin dusts off Cold War lexicon to make US villain in Georgia

...represents the Russian view of things, but if you track all the meetings that the impatient President of Georgia has had in Washington over the past couple of years - he's another Chalabi.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 02:56:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I completely disagree. They could have focused on South Ossetia and Abkhazia, instead Russia bombed infrastructure in the Georgian core. They have brought in criminal paramilitary to do war crimes, and war crimes of the other side are no justification to do one oneself.

I can accept somewhat the parallel to the Kosovo war in 1998 for the general justification to intervene. But then I'm not actually happy about that war.

Lich King/Caribou Barbie 08
Pain brings Katharsis

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 03:14:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I am not happy about any wars, but if you provoke then you take the consequences.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 03:32:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In any tribal conflicts in a macho culture (such as this), old scores are going to be settled. That is why you think hard before upsetting the apple cart.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 03:34:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
To say, Russia reacted as you expected it, is not the same as saying that they couldn't have reacted different or that they underplayed it.
That is why you think hard before upsetting the apple cart.
This implies I would have defended Saakashvili by accusing the Russians of a disproportionate reaction. Both sides have most likely committed war crimes. Accusing one side of war crimes does by no means wash the other clean.

Lich King/Caribou Barbie 08
Pain brings Katharsis
by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 03:42:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Of course. And allowing Sth Ossetian paramilitaries to do the dirty work does not absolve Russia from blame.

The question imo is why was Saakashvili encouraged to think he could get away with an invasion. It is an obvious miscalculation like all the other neo-con miscalculations born of ideology. The Russians have given numerous indications of unhappiness over the past couple of years, and they served all the standard public 'warning shots across the bows' - trespass in airspace, dropping bombs fairly harmlessly etc. And I am sure that diplomatic warnings have been delivered behind the doors.

Not surprisingly, Russia has been consistent in protecting the rights of Russian speakers, whether in Estonia, South Ossetia or wherever else.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 04:57:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Protecting Russian speakers

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 05:09:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Even that's not what's truly bizarre - which is that Georgia started this even though Russia was running military exercises across the border.

Which meant that there was no chance at all of a diplomatic response from Russia, because there was half a region of military hardware already in play.

We have to assume that Saak is either insane or was lied to by the US.

Or - worse - that the US had soldiers or mercenaries on the ground and was treating this as either a trial balloon or an attempt to put Russia in its place. Putin decided this wasn't worth going to war for, but was worth some military machismo.

The rest of the Moscow News Weekly content is - frankly - frighteningly jingoistic.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 05:29:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What's new on any side? Jingo media is all we ever get.

I try to read all the jingo in the vain hope that somewhere at the intersection  of madnesses, there might be some useful understanding.

About the only really useful relatively unbiased source is academia - but even that is fading in the battle for financial resources. And I mean academia, not think tanks.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 05:36:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There's jingoistic and there's just plain clown shoes.
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 08:20:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Jerome a Paris:
I tend to agree with you that even promising membership today is a step too far, but I see a tiny bit of hope in Martin's point (which can certainly be communicated discreetly to the Russians).

The advantage being that if the Russians have even rudimentary map-reading skills they will incapacitate themselves laughing and thus cease to play a strategic role in the world.

Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems to my naive eye that geography makes Georgian NATO membership such a patent foot-and-firearm proposition that I find it difficult to consider any other aspect.

"Ideas or the lack of them can cause disease." - Kurt Vonnegut

by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 04:31:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Please explain to me how rewarding Georgia with NATO membership and, what's on the platter?, punishing Russia by kicking it out of the G8, WTO, taking away their UNSC vote, or canceling the Olympics is in any way symbolic of giving Georgia two black eyes and Russia one.  Talk about disproportionate response.

I don't see any serious intention by continental Europe to really kick Russia out of G8. To grant WTO membership western Europeans anyhow have not the power. Nobody can take away the Russian UNSC vote, although it is possible to act without UN approval. This however remains largely unpopular in Europe. The Olympics won't be boycotted. Aren't you a bit paranoid?

And with Georgia, they don't get punishment by diplomatic measures, they are punished, by what happened in their country. Even if they have initiated it, they are so far the people, who got the most damage. Dead people, destroyed infrastructure, thousands of refugees, this doesn't weight more than some diplomatic problems?
It seems Georgia hoped, by triggering a conflict with Russia, they would get much more Western support than they really got. They won't do it again.

And Georgia isn't rewarded with NATO membership. There was a NATO meeting with the decision to grand Georgia membership without defined time horizon, before the conflict began. Currently I don't see any proof, that Georgia will ever become a NATO member despite it seems possible, and I don't think Georgia has increased its chances in the last two weeks. I don't think so much there is a master plan to put Georgia on hold forever, just that there are minimum requirements for NATO membership, Georgia won't fulfill in the foreseeable future. And yes, maybe Steinmeier can communicate calm to the Russians (Merkel won't). There are sensitivities on both sides and it is not easy for little informed, but somewhat sane people to act in pleasant way for everybody.  

And that has to do with, that I think the West will as well not get away without problems. The conflicts between eastern and western Europe might deepen, because the eastern European countries will stronger than before insist on taking their position towards Russia as the EU position. Any possible development to a stronger genuine European identity will be even more in shatters than before with the eastern Europeans now more than before seeing their best ally in the US instead in old Europe. What would have happened, if now old Europe would say, that the decisions at the last NATO meeting would be obsolete. The eastern Europeans would not trust western Europe at all any more on security issues.
The EU Russian relationships are for the EU as important as for Russia.

Lich King/Caribou Barbie 08
Pain brings Katharsis

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 03:06:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Aren't you a bit paranoid?

Bwahahaha!  I'm just telling you what they say on the teevee, dude.

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."

by poemless on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 03:16:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
On which channel? Is this channel known for its accuracy in reporting reality?

Of course it is possible that the US stays away from the Olympics, but the power of these con men is probably more limited than they admit.

Lich King/Caribou Barbie 08
Pain brings Katharsis

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 03:20:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Google "Russia G8 WTO Olympics" in a news search and figure it out for yourself.  Don't accuse me for being paranoid for bringing up something that has been all over the news for the past few days.  

I'm not saying any of these things will happen.  I'm just asking on what criteria are they even being proposed?  

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."

by poemless on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 03:29:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I found nothing reasonable.
Actually Georgia has to sign Russians WTO membership, so this is out of discussion. For the G8 I found, that McCain advocated to remove Russia. What has this to do with Europe being sufficiently neutral. I have never claimed the US would be. Probably the other stuff as well relates to US politicians. This is simply irrelevant for what was the issue, that was about 'old Europe', especially Germany and France.

By the way, when googleing I found the following in the UK Times


Once again, the Europeans, and their friends in the pusillanimous wing of the US Left, have demonstrated that, when it come to those postmodern Olympian sports of synchronized self-loathing, team hand-wringing and lightweight posturing, they know how to sweep gold, silver and bronze.

There's a routine now whenever some unspeakable act of aggression is visited upon us or our allies by murderous fanatics or authoritarian regimes. While the enemy takes a victory lap, we compete in a shameful medley relay of apologetics, defeatism and surrender.

The initial reaction is almost always self-blame and an expression of sympathetic explanation for the aggressor's actions. In the Russian case this week, the conventional wisdom is that Moscow was provoked by the hot-headed President Saakashvili of Georgia. It was really all his fault, we are told.

It it is going on somewhat in that way. I don't think the US/UK/eastern European side sees old Europe as unanimous supporters.

Lich King/Caribou Barbie 08
Pain brings Katharsis

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 03:54:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You keep differentiating, but my whole point is that Old Europe keeps doing what the US wants it to!  

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."
by poemless on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 04:10:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I really would like the European leaders to mark more firmly their distance from the US administration, but you cannot say that "old" Europe does what the US want it to. Indeed, France and Germany opposed the integration of Ukraine and Georgia in NATO. That's the reason why the US had to pass specific acts to maintain their agressive policy towards Russia.

See Billmon's excellent diary on Daily Kos: Anatomy of A(nother) Fiasco

"Ne te courbe que pour aimer..." René Char

by Melanchthon on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 05:06:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It does appear now to be token opposition, with grandstanding by your love-handle President.

If you look at the Nordic response, it is much more humanitarian.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 05:13:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
We have the best of all possible worlds - our leaders say the right things (well, some of the right things) and do the wrong ones.

Excepting the UK, clearly, because in European terms it's already a lost cause.

The history of European support for rendition gives the game away - the words were principled, the actions rather less so.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 05:31:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"opposed" being the opperative word.

You don't think they are crying uncle?  I hope you are right.  If you are, Merkel should cut out the talk about NATO.

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."

by poemless on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 05:15:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Even puppet Bush is tired of NATO - the US is taking over the command for Afghanistan.

The only benefit of NATO imo (from the EU POV) was to moderate US imperial power, plus maybe some logistics savings and efficiencies. There may be still some use for it with a new diplomatically-inclined US President. But it's more likely to be a budget question for the US.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 05:29:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

'NEW EUROPE' URGES WEST TO RETHINK RUSSIAN TIES

Polish and Baltic officials, most of whom grew up under Soviet occupation, have long chafed at being described in Western Europe as too "Russia-phobic" in their oft-repeated warnings about Moscow's intentions. But now in this gritty capital, the refrain is, "We told you so."

The strength of Polish feeling against Russia is measured by the quick completion of a US missile defense pact last week, after 18 months of wrangling in Warsaw and Washington. While the US has stoutly argued that the missiles were meant as a shield against rogue attacks from Iran, their strategic value here has apparently shifted. Polish opposition to hosting 10 proposed missile silos dropped by 30 percent in the week after Russia's military move in Georgia, according to polls in Warsaw.

"The events in the Caucasus show clearly that such security guarantees are indispensable," said Polish Prime Minister Donald Tusk.

As was noted before: I thought the anti-missile shiled was in no way directed against Russia...?

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 12:21:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I seriously doubt the so-called "missile shield" can be "such a security guarantee". And I hope Poland will never have to put it to test...

"Ne te courbe que pour aimer..." René Char
by Melanchthon on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 12:26:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Right. But the missiles need soldiers to look after them, which require support staff for the soldiers, and pretty soon you have a full U.S. army base in Poland. I suspect that's the real point behind the whole thing.
by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 12:51:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I suspect the real point behind this thing is the keeping NATO/USA calling the shots in Europe's affairs, and keeping Europe submissive to the US.  And of course lining the pockets of people who profit off the military industrial complex.  

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."
by poemless on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 12:57:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's the real point for Poland - it has no interest in the missile shield, what it does want is stronger security relations with the US. And judging from the rhetoric coming out of Moscow, they want that too - or at least they see that as an acceptable price for pursuing the policies they want. Or maybe as Rob Farley has suggested, they've got a bunch of Cheneys and Kristols over there who seem to think that negative consequences don't exist - that if you act tough, everyone else will be more willing to go along with you, rather than looking to see how to strengthen themselves and undermine you.
by MarekNYC on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 01:02:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The biggest danger posed by this "sheild" is that someone might think it could help.  It might not even stop Iran. More than ten missiles would overwhelm it. The "sheild" would be useless against cruise missiles and  the electromagnetic pulse from a single nuclear detonation could blind most defensive measures.  

The fall-out would be on everyone.  The whole northern hemisphere could be worse than the first 50 km downwind from Chernobil.  There are those in the USA who might find this prospect "rapturous" until they found themselves and their children dying of radiation sickness rather than being transported in their "rapture."  

If sanity be culturally normative, then by the norms of this culture I claim insanity.

by ARGeezer (argeezer a in a circle yahoo dot com) on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 05:17:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Also in the Salon.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 01:21:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Czech political scene split over Georgia - 15-08-2008 14:34 UTC - Radio Prague
President Klaus made his views clear in an interview for Czech Radio: "Once again people are closing their eyes to the reality - and creating myths. I did not make a strong statement because I refuse to accept this widespread, simplified interpretation which paints the Georgians as the victims and the Russians as the villains. That is a gross oversimplification of the situation and I would have to write a lengthy article to explain why I do not share this view"

Mr. Klaus said further that in 1968 Czechoslovakia did not attack Subcarpathian Ruthenia and in his view the pro-reform Czechoslovak leader Alexander Dubček did not resemble President Saakashvili in word or deed. The Czech head of state who strongly advised caution over the matter of acknowledging Kosovo's independence said that the situation in Georgia had been crucially influenced by the separation of Kosovo from Serbia in February of this year, and that with the separation of Kosovo, Russia had obtained a strong justification for its action. He said he did not share the view of Poland, Ukraine and the Baltic states that Georgia should be given entry to NATO to prevent further attacks from Russia. Mr. Klaus indicated that this would only further aggravate an already complicated situation.



"Ne te courbe que pour aimer..." René Char
by Melanchthon on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 04:22:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Here in the Salon.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 01:17:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In my opinion, Georgia was a NATO bluff. That bluff was called. Promises to add Georgia to NATO now have exposed the weakness of NATO and the obviousness of the bluff. From the CS Monitor, Gordon Lubold writes: After Georgia, what future for NATO?

The immediate crisis in Georgia appears to be over for now. But as the West assesses what is clearly a new geopolitical dynamic in Eurasia, there is recognition that while Russia's military may not be as formidable as it once was, NATO and other Western allies must adapt quickly to counter the threat it does pose to its immediate neighbors.

That will undoubtedly lead to a broader debate about the future of NATO, its membership roster, and the resources it will need to create a viable impediment to Russia's military, whatever Moscow's ambitions may be.

But for now, it seems obvious that Russia has used its forces to send a clear message that it won't be ignored.

In theory, NATO only works as a deterrent for member nations if the members are willing to go to war. Sort of like how nuclear weapons only work as a deterrent for nations with nukes, they have to be willing to use them. NATO cannot be used as a check on Russian power for a nation that isn't in NATO, especially if nations won't go to war.

It's an exciting time to be alive and sadly that's a bad thing.
Therefore, for every nation NATO adds, it must be willing to go to war with Russia (or any other nation) to defend the members. So, if Georgia is added to NATO, NATO is willing to wage war with Russia.

I think what the 21st century politicians have discovered that the late 20th century politicians didn't get was that deterrents don't work if someone is willing to call your bluff and you're not willing to carry out the threat. (Such examples: Bush dares Congress to impeach him. Georgia (or Russia) dares the West to defend Georgia.) This pattern will only be broken, I believe, when the stakes get too high that threats are carried out.

The US has become a hollow military threat with only bombs, missiles, and nukes backing it up. NATO has become a toothless tiger. My fear is the first half of the 21st century is going to be as bloody as the 1st half of the 20th century plus with nuclear exchanges.

by Magnifico on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 02:40:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Guardian - Max Hastings - The Russians yearn for respect in the same way as a street kid with a knife

The Bush administration today talks of gallant little Georgia in 2008 as if it was gallant little Poland in 1939. As so often, it draws the wrong lesson from history. Britain and France had to fight Hitler. But in September 1939 both countries found themselves in the grotesque position of having offered security guarantees to Poland, while being incapable of doing anything practical to frustrate the German invasion.

It is several bridges too far today to pretend that the west can defend Georgia, or indeed Ukraine. The only sensible advice Washington and its allies can offer their governments is to rub along as best they can with the Russians, and avoid offering them military provocations.



keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 05:42:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Threaten Merkel with another gratuitous back massage??

More on the serious end, I picked this William Pfaff quote up from Michael Tomasky's new blog:

With Georgia, we are now proposing to take in countries that were part of historical Russia. And it seems to me that it is an attempt at intimidation to press things this far. I'm sure it is taken that way in Russia.

    We're acting as if it's membership in the Lions Club or the Rotary Club. NATO is supposed to be a serious organization that makes a solemn treaty commitment to go to war in defense of its individual members.

    NATO is not an organization to promote democracy. NATO is to have democracies in it and to go to war if somebody invades those democracies. But it's not NATO's business to teach democracy. If we had the Warsaw Pct teaching democracy in Mexico or Puerto Rico, I think we would not consider that a friendly development.

Actually, I am just referencing it because it mentions Puerto Rico.  We are actually a somewhat renegade colony since we kicked a US base out of here not too long ago...

"Beware of the man who does not talk, and the dog that does not bark." Cheyenne

by maracatu on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 02:55:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Merkel Signals Support for Georgia's NATO Membership Bid

(...)

In an apparent change in stance, the chancellor also threw her weight behind Georgia's bid to join the NATO.

"Georgia will become a member of NATO if it wants to -- and it does want to," Merkel said before talks with President Mikheil Saakashvili in Tbilisi.

It was one of the strongest statements yet of support for Georgia's NATO membership bid which is fiercely opposed by Russia. The statement signals a change in Germany's position towards Georgian NATO membership. Earlier this year, Germany led European resistance to plans, pushed by the US, to put Georgia on the track to NATO membership.

Later at a joint news conference with Saakashvili, Merkel said that though Georgia was on a clear path to membership in NATO  she stood by her decision at a summit in April not to grant Tbilisi a "membership action plan" for joining the alliance.



In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 06:28:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

WORLD WITHOUT OIL, AMEN

Think $4 for a gallon of gas is screwing with your summer? Wait until you hear about something called peak oil. According to a growing number of experts--and we're not just talking about conspiracy wackos here--we're on the brink of an economic crisis that could lead to, well, the end of life as we know it. Benjamin Kunkel investigates just how scary things are about to become

A long and very good article.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 12:12:03 PM EST
I brought up peak oil to a visiting and otherwise intelligent american engineer last week, who piped up with the secret oil under Gull Island.

OMG.

Americans are willing to believe anything but the fact that their corporations have the highest debt ever, their government has the highest debt ever and their personal debt is uhm...oh yeah...highest ever.

Never underestimate their intelligence, always underestimate their knowledge.

Frank Delaney ~ Ireland

by siegestate (siegestate or beyondwarispeace.com) on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 02:23:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There have been numerous references to Nouriel Roubini here at ET. I must admit I wasn't paying attention.

But this article on Dr Doom lays out his predictions, his methods and his history. Essential reading imo.

On Sept. 7, 2006, Nouriel Roubini, an economics professor at New York University, stood before an audience of economists at the International Monetary Fund and announced that a crisis was brewing. In the coming months and years, he warned, the United States was likely to face a once-in-a-lifetime housing bust, an oil shock, sharply declining consumer confidence and, ultimately, a deep recession. He laid out a bleak sequence of events: homeowners defaulting on mortgages, trillions of dollars of mortgage-backed securities unraveling worldwide and the global financial system shuddering to a halt. These developments, he went on, could cripple or destroy hedge funds, investment banks and other major financial institutions like Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.

And his hero is Keynes....

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 12:53:36 PM EST
is just better known that European Tribune. He has not diagnosed the Anglo Disease as such.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 01:42:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What stood out for me was:

  • his multicultural and linguistic background = multifaceted view and wider range of sources.

  • avoidance of modelling - as I understood the reference to Bubbles Greenspan, he follows the micro to draw conclusions about the macro ie anecdotal indicators.

  • Keynsian view = the debt/govnt argument.

  • outsider = damned by whatever he said, so he might as well tell it how he sees it.

All of the predictions he has made have been listed here at ET under Anglo Disease and in commentary. What is good to know is that someone with whom we share views closely obviously has the ear of the movers and shakers.

His description of the 'subprime financial system' is the Anglo Disease by another name.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 02:03:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, with the exceptions of Phonie and Frauddie (for now), he's been dead-on.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 01:48:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ugh, sitting around here with nothing to do. the campaign folks need to be better organized.
by MarekNYC on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 01:07:20 PM EST
Whereabouts in Fairfax are you?

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 01:56:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Mount Vernon? Lee? A bit out past Alexandria, the closest station is Huntington about fifteen or twenty minutes away
by MarekNYC on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 01:57:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ah, okay, Fort Hunt/Mount Vernon.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 02:00:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's the place that is always advertising on NPR - 4700 technology companies or something like that.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 02:07:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yeah, that's out in western Fairfax near Dulles, though.  This is southern Fairfax.  They don't care about us here. :\

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 02:11:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think if I see one more diary advocating Wes Clark for VP, I'm going to eat a kitten.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 01:55:47 PM EST


You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 02:11:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Heh.

(shrug) Looks like it's going to be Biden anyway.  The tea leaves read that way pretty clearly, at least in my opinion.  So my Kaine pick apparently blows, and none of my top three look to be the one.

I'd be just fine with Biden.  He'd be a proper attack dog.  He knows how to talk to people in plain language.  He's wickedly funny.

And the Georgian president did specifically ask to see Biden.  That's pretty impressive.

Plus, Biden's an old warhorse.  He's earned it.

And my better half was for Biden, so that balances out nicely.  I picked the presidential candidate, she gets veep.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 02:24:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I will bow to your fairfaxian knowledge in these matters. Does he bring any states with him?

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 02:34:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No.  He's from Delaware, although he's (very loudly) an Irish-Catholic from Scranton, PA, originally (and if you ever listen to him, it shows).

A Biden pick suggests Obama was going for someone with some foreign policy gravitas, but also for someone with a more plain-spoken/rougher style to balance Obama's rock-star shtick.

The downside to Biden is that he's incapable of staying on message, and he cusses...a lot.  His favorite word is "malarkey," but that's often replaced with "bullshit".  At the same time, that blunt speaking style also gives him an advantage similar to the one comedians like Stewart and Maher enjoy: He can say things in a somewhat outrageous way, but in a way that normal people find perfectly understandable (and enjoy hearing).  Here's a good example:

Thanks to that (and the fact that his son is a soldier and his wife a teacher), he comes off much more real than other politicians.

He comes with some big negatives and big positives.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 02:50:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
JFK and LBJ kind of contrast? Good cop, bad cop. Johnson was the one who could deliver Congress.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 03:01:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Kinda.  Johnson was a more talented legislator than Biden.  Biden's the better guy.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 03:03:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Let's hope Biden can toast with the Russians Kekkonen/Melancthon style ;-)

Putin was never going to take any shit from a teetotaller like Bush or uptight arseholes like Cheney. They are not mensch.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 03:10:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't think Putin drinks...

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."
by poemless on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 03:14:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
He's not a 'just say NO' kind of chap

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 03:29:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't see what one has to do with the other.  You said "Putin was never going to take any shit from a teetotaller like Bush."  I'm just saying, Putin is known for his relative sobriety, esp. in comparison to his predecessor.  

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."
by poemless on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 03:39:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Not sure that comparison does much justice to Putin, in fairness.  That's kind of like being known for one's relative level of accomplishment in comparison to Paris Hilton.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 04:06:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's the pills v booze philosophy. Both, of course, are used to keep the masses happy. There was so much valium, quaaludes, mandrax etc prescribed in the 70's that half of the American population must have been semi-catatonic.

Whether Putin drinks or not, (and as a sportsman he has reasons not to) the culture in which he lives defines masculinity by the kind of male bonding that occurs under the influence - just as in Finland.

But we are talking at cross-purposes again ;-)

I'd just like to say that I support your take on Russia. For what it's worth...

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 04:44:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
As long as the campaign doesn't muzzle him to prevent any suggestion of ANYTHING specific.  They act like they don't think they could defend themselves on anything were they ever attacked on specifics.  This leaves them vulnerable to attack on a lack of specifics.

If sanity be culturally normative, then by the norms of this culture I claim insanity.
by ARGeezer (argeezer a in a circle yahoo dot com) on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 05:31:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There is an old adage to do with media projects: there are 3 selling processes. First you have to convince the backers, then the creative crew, and finally the audience. The argument is different at each phase. Or maybe different in emphasis.

I don't see the US Presidential race as being that much different. The only difference is that in media the 3 audiences rarely connect - the statements one makes rarely come back to haunt you.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 05:44:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Impossible to muzzle Biden.  Everybody who's ever watched Biden knows it.  In fact, I'm sure, if he's chosen, it will be with full knowledge that a key point to Biden is the inability to muzzle him.  Just tell him to not say anything too stupid, and turn him loose.

It complements well, stylistically.  Obama, undoubtedly by design, is supposed to be the larger-than-life, big-picture, (for lack of a better word) airy presidential candidate.  Biden, in contrast, has the tools (properly directed) to deliver a heavier version of the message that would be easier for some to relate to coming from a guy like him.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 06:38:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Would that I were confident that Biden would be an adequate shield for Obama on all items specific.

If sanity be culturally normative, then by the norms of this culture I claim insanity.
by ARGeezer (argeezer a in a circle yahoo dot com) on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 07:25:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This headline on it was pretty damned funny, too:

DelawareLiberal.net | Biggest Day in History of Delaware is Coming.

Delaware was the first state in the union, but somehow Joe Biden being named veep would be the biggest day ever?

Small states are so weird.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 02:32:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Why is he eating his tie?!



"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."

by poemless on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 05:42:47 PM EST
Oh, the human brain. It is so wonderful in its idiosyncrasies ;-)

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 05:48:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I got the impression he needs his blanky and his mommy.

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. --Charu Saxena.
by metavision on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 07:14:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
LOL!  They need someone in the studio with a long shepherd's crook, or a hook, to get this guy off stage.

If sanity be culturally normative, then by the norms of this culture I claim insanity.
by ARGeezer (argeezer a in a circle yahoo dot com) on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 07:28:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
One of those which worked on most 'world leaders' would be worth a room full of Nobels.
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 08:23:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The only one I know that fits that description features a rather long and only slightly curved end of metal that is attached at right angles and is sharpened!

If sanity be culturally normative, then by the norms of this culture I claim insanity.
by ARGeezer (argeezer a in a circle yahoo dot com) on Mon Aug 18th, 2008 at 11:24:46 PM EST
[