European Tribune

European Salon de News, Discussion et Klatsch - 8. September

by Fran
Sun Sep 7th, 2008 at 03:28:33 PM EST

On this date in history:

1841 - Birth of Antonín Dvořák, a Czech composer of Romantic music, who employed the idioms and melodies of the folk music of his native Bohemia and Moravia.(d. 1904)

More here and video


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EUROPE
by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Sep 7th, 2008 at 03:29:07 PM EST
Peter Mandelson official in cash for secrets row - Times Online

A top official in Peter Mandelson's European Union trade department has leaked highly sensitive commercial information in return for the promise of financial benefit.

In a six-month investigation, The Sunday Times tape-recorded Fritz-Harald Wenig, a trade director, passing secrets to undercover reporters posing as lobbyists for a Chinese businessman seeking insider information.

Wenig discussed the possibility of payment or taking a lucrative job with the businessman. He said he would decide further once he had provided "results".

He leaked the names of two Chinese companies likely to get special status if the EU imposes a protective tariff barrier against Chinese candle-makers. The information is potentially worth millions to those trading with these companies.

[Murdoch Alert]
by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Sep 7th, 2008 at 03:32:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Revealed: how Eurocrat leaked trade secrets over lavish dinners - Times Online

The elegant Comme Chez Soi is one of the great Brussels restaurants where businessmen on expense accounts mix with Eurocrats beneath its famous art nouveau glass ceilings.

On a warm Wednesday evening in March, one of the diners turning up to sample the two Michelin star menu was Fritz-Harald Wenig, a director in the European commission's trade department.

He had accepted an e-mail invitation to dine with two British lobbyists whom he had never met before. But it was one of his favourite restaurants and he was in good spirits.

When the lobbyists explained that they wanted help for a Chinese client, he quipped, "We decide so after a second dinner here", before quickly adding: "No, I'm joking."

[Murdoch Alert]
by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Sep 7th, 2008 at 03:32:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What do they expect ? In their right-wing commercial worldview, the only useful value anything and everything possesses is its monetary price. It's no surprise that extends to the staff.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 06:22:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Is the rule of law (ie money cannot buy decisions, the law imposes them for all) compatible with neoliberalism?

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 06:34:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, let's be honest, most citizens of most countries experience "justice" proportional to their ability to pay.

To employ one of my more annoying sweeping statements, legal systems aren't about doing the right thing: They're about ensuring freedom from control for the upper classes, ensuring freedom from responsibility for the middle classes, and ensuring both apply to the lower classes.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 10:37:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Maltese Anger Mounts Over Rising Illegal Immigration | Europe | Deutsche Welle | 07.09.2008
Even as EU border patrols search for some 70 migrants who went missing near Malta on Aug. 27, the people of the smallest EU state are becoming fed up with rising illegal immigration.

The 70 disappeared when they were swept off a flimsy craft which capsized after it left Libya, according to eight fellow travelers who managed to cling onto the vessel long enough to be rescued. It is one of the worst tragedies involving would-be immigrants in the Mediterranean -- yet the Maltese newspaper's online readers' forum offered little, if any, compassion.

Instead, anger was directed at the thousands of Africans who attempt to cross the waters to Europe. Readers' rage was also aimed at neighboring Libya, from where most of the would-be immigrants depart, and the European Union, which is perceived as turning a blind eye towards a mounting problem.

In the past eight months 2,200 would-be illegal immigrants landed on Malta, the smallest and most densely-populated European Union state. In contrast less than 1,700 arrivals were recorded for the whole of 2007. Given Malta's population of 400,000, it is as if 45,000 people had landed in Germany, Maltese government officials have said.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Sep 7th, 2008 at 03:33:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, they have every right to be angry at the EU's indifference. Malta, Spain, Italy, Greece and bulgaria suffer disproportionately. This is an EU problem and it requires an EU solution

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 06:25:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Are you arguing that Malta should be able to force France or the UK or any other country to receive immigrants (in according to a quota per country, or something) and to pay for coast guards and the like?

How would you size the quotas? To population? To size? To proximity to the immigrants' countries of origin? According to language they speak?

Just like the "we need to nuy gas jointly from Russia" - I want specifics, not generic "we should do this"...

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 06:37:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, what I'm saying is that Malta's border, like those of bulgaria, Greece, Spain and Italy, is Europe's border. People who enter these countries from outside that border enter europe. So, it only makes sense that europe, as a body, make policy decisions about who comes in, why and how many. And what to do with those who can't.

And yes, if you like, a common border requiring a common policy requires a centrally funded border coastguard & police.

However, if you're asking me to determine the specifics of that common policy, then I'm gonna take the Obama defence; it's way, way above my pay-grade.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 08:15:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't even have a pay grade, so I can speak...:  Hundreds of people have been arriving to the Canary Islands every week and I freeze with every report, as they show the cadavers under-water-on-board, how many were thrown along the way, how some arrive with their fingerprints burned off so they cannot be identified....  

It´s not the complaining, it´s the desperate need of the rest of the world next door.  

First of all, EU Justice should be investigating the mafias involved and blanking NATO should be finding the reported ´mother ship´ that drops off the boats, instead of covering the USass in Afghanistan, but there doesn´t  seem to be enough interest in ´just a southern problem´.

The lives lost are priceless and so are the social costs, but the maintenance, deportation, job creation in the countries of origin, etc. do have a measurable price and I bet non-profits could tell us!

Now that we have the Shame Directive and some countries are willing to pay privateers to ´store´ people up to 18 months, I don´t even want to know how much cheaper it would be to create a job at the source.

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. --Charu Saxena.

by metavision on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 03:34:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
(how much cheaper it would be to simply give 500€ a month to every immigrant. Probably cheaper than the boatloads of money spent erecting fortress Europe, chasing those found within, etc...)

Auferre, trucidare, rapere, falsis nominibus imperium; atque, ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 04:03:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Just to put things in scale : because of the absurd, racist-baiting policies about refusing to give papers, the various French social systems may lose up to 5 billion euros because of non-declared employment. The cost of the security apparatus set up to send away 25000 illegals a year (including a few thousands Roms from the Balkans paid a few hundred euros so that they'll cross the French border and be included in the statistics) is around 500 million euros, itself. (source)

Auferre, trucidare, rapere, falsis nominibus imperium; atque, ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 04:14:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Serbian Ultra-Nationalists Split, Top Leader Resigns | Europe | Deutsche Welle | 06.09.2008
Rumors that the powerful ultra-nationalist Serbian Radical Party (SRS) was splitting were confirmed when its acting leader, Tomislav Nikolic, resigned all his party posts.

Nikolic resigned Saturday, Sept. 6, as the deputy of the party chief Vojislav Seselj, who has been on trial for war crimes at the UN International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia (ICTY) since early  2003, as well as the SRS floor leader in the Serbian parliament.

SRS said in a statement that Nikolic stepped down at the party leadership meeting Friday night. The outcome indicates that the extreme hardline wing within SRS, loyal to Seselj, overcame the moderates led by Nikolic.

Nikolic has led the SRS with apparently comprehensive loyalty since Seselj left Serbia to face trial in early 2003 -- yet under his leadership, the party toned down its belligerent rhetoric, softening its image slightly.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Sep 7th, 2008 at 03:33:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
EU Looks for Ties in Russia's Backyard after Georgia War | Europe | Deutsche Welle | 06.09.2008
The EU must open the door to a rapprochement with Belarus and support reconstruction and peace in Georgia and Moldova if it is to counter Russia's growing assertiveness in eastern Europe, EU foreign ministers said.

"We should encourage Belarus to improve the way they conduct their elections and we should give them incentives. We need a process of rebuilding trust," Polish Foreign Minister Radek Sikorski told DPA news agency from the ministers' informal meeting in Avignon, France, on Saturday, Sept. 6.

"It is a very good time to rethink our relations with Belarus. Belarus is sending desperate signals to the West," Lithuanian Foreign Minister Petras Vaitiekunas said.

Officially, Saturday's talks were set to focus on the EU's relationship with Russia and Georgia following their war in August.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Sep 7th, 2008 at 03:33:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There's a simple way to improve our relationship with Belarus: offer them subsidized oil&gas...

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 06:38:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
London suburbs seduce Nicolas Sarkozy - Times Online

President Nicolas Sarkozy of France has enlisted some of Britain's leading architects for one of his most daring projects. He wants to make Paris more like London.

Proposals now emerging reflect the French leader's admiration for Anglo-Saxon dynamism. They are likely to horrify Parisians.

As part of the master plan architects are proposing high-rise suburbs modelled on Croydon, south London, and an orbital railway to link them. They will encourage the middle classes to move out of the centre of Paris and ordinary working people to move in.

Professor Richard Burdett, design chief for the London Olympics and one of the experts working on the "Greater Paris" project with the Richard Rogers architecture practice, said: "The notion of mixing different types of people and activity, so that people are cheek by jowl, makes a city over time much more tolerant and resilient to change.

[Murdoch Alert]
by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Sep 7th, 2008 at 03:34:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Croydon:

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sun Sep 7th, 2008 at 03:52:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It looks far beeter at night...in fog...during a power cut...from space.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Sun Sep 7th, 2008 at 06:03:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
ordinary working people to move in.

Paris property prices and rents will have to go down a long, long way before that happens.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 01:28:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Supply and demand. I was having a heated discussion with an anti-development Brooklynite. Finally, she says, but look at what's happening, between the economy and the existing new projects, purchase prices in Brooklyn have begun to go down, and rents look like they might be peaking. A lot more development could really impact housing prices. That's the whole point I told her.
by MarekNYC on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 01:36:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I didn't realise he was now de facto mayor of all Parisian suburbs.

Will someone unplug this catastrophe on legs?

"The womb that spawned that thing is fertile yet"

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 04:12:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
this is part of the left-right battle on how to run Greater Paris.

Now that the left controls Paris and the Ile-de-France (Greater Paris) region, and Delanoe has managedto improve relations with the neighboring cities around Paris to the point that there are discussions about more ambitious cooperation, in particular on transport, Sarkozy wants to barge into the situation to (i) divide the left, and (ii) grab attention on him for the flagship projects and (iii) do whatever will help the right win in the next round of elections.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 06:41:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, I do know...

But the president is meant to uphold the Constitution, not act as if it were irrelevant.
I know it is wishful thinking these days. But it would be a great danger to become accustomed to the impostor.

By the way, this is something I thought about and started to fear. Sarkozy has been so unbelievably awful from the start that people are likely to become used to it. And it may take a colossal catastrophe in 2012 to remind them of quite how incompetent he is -especially since most of the media will play his songs even more than now.
It may well be that had he been less incompetent, he would have stood a lesser chance of staying in power. As it is, the bar will be so low that people may have forgotten how angry they were about him.

"The womb that spawned that thing is fertile yet"

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 09:53:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sounds like Bush... sigh.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 06:45:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I mentioned schadenfreude as one of my sentiments when Sarko won - ok all you Frenchies, see, you can be dumb too. But to be fair, Sarko isn't as bad as Bush, and you haven't _re_elected him. The Italians on the other hand...
by MarekNYC on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 07:59:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, maybe a 'quite' would be in order.

But here is my comeback: at least you haven't ever elected Bush (OK, that he should get over 5% of the votes was embarrassing enough). Voter fraud took care of that, while he had lost both elections.
There does not appear to have been significant fraud in France, so we must accept the fact that 'we' chose him.

Having said that, McCain appears to be leading in the polls at the moment. Ahem.

"The womb that spawned that thing is fertile yet"

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Tue Sep 9th, 2008 at 01:41:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Report: Steinmeier to Run for Chancellor Next Year | Germany | Deutsche Welle | 07.09.2008
Germany's Social Democrats meet Sunday amidst a deep leadership crisis. But the party has agreed to announce Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier as its candidate for chancellor next year, say media reports.

Senior leaders in the Social Democratic Pary (SPD) have decided that Steinmeier will run against incumbent Chancellor Angela Merkel in next year's federal elections, according to reports on Saturday, Sept. 6, by the Berliner Zeitung and Spiegel Online.

The two Web sites reported, without citing sources, that Steinmeier's candidacy would be announced at Sunday's party conference.

Though the Social Democrats appear to have reached one important decision in selecting Steinmeier, their meeting comes at a time of deep internal divisions.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Sep 7th, 2008 at 03:35:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
German SPD Names Chancellor Candidate as Chairman Resigns | Germany | Deutsche Welle | 07.09.2008
Germany's Social Democrats nominated Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier to challenge Angela Merkel for the chancellorship next year. The news coincided with party chairman Kurt Beck's unexpected resignation.

Germany's Social Democratic Party (SPD) reshuffled its leadership a year ahead of federal elections, during a meeting of top party leaders near Berlin Sunday, Sept 7.

 

The party nominated Steinmeier to face incumbent Merkel in September 2009 and summoned back as chairman veteran Franz Muentefering.

 

Making the announcement in Werder, south-west of Berlin, Steinmeier said Kurt Beck, the long-serving premier of Rhineland-Palatinate, who has led the party since 2006, had resigned as chairman.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Sep 7th, 2008 at 03:38:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
German foreign minister picked to challenge Merkel - International Herald Tribune

BERLIN: Germany's Social Democrats were thrown into turmoil Sunday after their embattled leader, Kurt Beck, announced that he would step down as party chairman and after Frank-Walter Steinmeier, the popular foreign minister, was chosen to challenge Chancellor Angela Merkel in parliamentary elections next year.

The decision on Steinmeier's candidacy, to be confirmed during a special party meeting here Monday, was made after hours of intense and often chaotic negotiations in Werder, a lakeside village outside Berlin, and sets in motion the election campaign in Europe's largest economy.

"The Social Democratic Party leadership today unanimously decided to nominate Frank-Walter Steinmeier as the Social Democrats' candidate for chancellor," said the party's general secretary, Hubertus Heil, adding that Franz Müntefering, who led the party in 2004-05, would replace Beck as chairman.

Müntefering, 68, also held the posts of labor minister and vice chancellor under Merkel. He resigned in November 2007 to care for his dying wife and returned to political life late last month.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Sep 7th, 2008 at 03:46:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Social Democrats in Chaos: Kurt Beck Resigns as SPD Head - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International

One day after Germany's Social Democrats leaked the news that Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier would be the party's candidate for chancellor, SPD leader Kurt Beck resigned in frustration. Party bigwig Franz Müntefering may take over.

For much of the last year, Germany's Social Democratic Party has been stumbling from crisis to crisis with plummeting membership and abysmal popularity. On Sunday, party leader Kurt Beck finally took the last move available to him: He stepped down. [...]

On Sunday, though, Beck expressed dissatisfaction with the way the decision had been made public. In a brief written statement, Beck said that he had asked Steinmeier to become the SPD's chancellor candidate two weeks ago and that the two had agreed to announce the decision at the Werder SPD meeting on Sunday.


Kudos to the SPD for giving the Spiegel a field day. Meh. Best they can hope for is another grand coalition. And it will be the left party that hands it to them.
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Sun Sep 7th, 2008 at 04:00:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
BBC NEWS | Europe | Anger over 'Ramadan' trial delay

A row has broken out in France after a court postponed a trial, apparently because it was to take place during the holy Muslim month of Ramadan.

Critics say the decision is a breach of France's strict separation of religion and state.

The trial of seven men for armed robbery was due to start on 16 September in Rennes.

But last week the court agreed to a request from a lawyer for one of the accused to put it off until January.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Sep 7th, 2008 at 03:35:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The tribunal didn't mention Ramadan among the reasons given for the postponing

Lawyers say that such postponing are routinely given for Kippour among other religious festivities.

It seems the French media and elite see Laïcité as a tool to be used against Islam rather than an end by itself, which is annoying.

Auferre, trucidare, rapere, falsis nominibus imperium; atque, ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Sun Sep 7th, 2008 at 06:31:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Public could foot multi-million pound bill after prison officers' details lost - Times Online

There were warnings today that the taxpayer may face a multi-million pound bill after the loss of a computer disk carrying personal details of thousands of employees of the National Offender Management Service - many of whom are prison officers and probation workers.

Jack Straw, the Justice Secretary, ordered an urgent inquiry after it was revealed that the hard drive was reported missing in July. He has also demanded to be told why he was not informed immediately of the loss.

EDS, a private contractor brought in to to overhaul IT infrastructure seven years ago, told the Prison Service in July this year that the hard drive had gone astray - a year after the missing disk had last been seen.

In a statement, Mr Straw said: "I am extremely concerned about this missing data. I was informed of its loss at lunchtime today (Saturday) and have ordered an urgent inquiry into the circumstances and the implications of the data loss and the level of risk involved.

[Murdoch Alert]
by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Sep 7th, 2008 at 03:37:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Incidents of silly loss of large quantities of personal data on handy storage devices like CDRs and HDs seem to keep on happening.

Is there money to be made losingselling them?

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 01:35:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
not really. although we keep hearing of these incidents, I suspect that it is down to a refusal to insitute rigorous procedures.

I've met this in companies where I work. People define standards that are impractical if the job is to be done, which create logjams that themselves become problematic. Rather than simply acknowledge that the idea was stupid in the first place, management impose yet more impractical  procedures. The result is that people end up either ignoring basic data security or not getting anything done.

And the worst thing you can do is tell the management why their ideas won't work. Because they then assume you're working against them and accuse you of sabotaging their great idea. And even when they and the whole world know it was  a stupid scheme, they won't change it because they' know they;d lose face to staff if an underling could say "I told you so".

Course it would be nice if management were open to staff suggestions, but this is Britain and management demand the right to damage.


keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 06:34:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
this is Britain

Not only. This is Planet Earth.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 07:27:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Czechs Stick It to the EU with Sugary Video | Europe | Deutsche Welle | 07.09.2008
Czech President Vaclav Klaus, an outspoken EU critic, once warned that his nation would dissolve in the European Union like a sugar cube in a cup of coffee.

Now that the Czechs are about to chair the European Union, the government has turned the cube into a sweetly subversive symbol of its scepticism toward the European Union.

The 30-second video, unveiled by Prime Minister Mirek Topolanek and his deputy for European affairs Alexandr Vondra, is meant to draw the public's attention to the six-month Czech presidency starting Jan. 1.

The clip, airing on nationwide television since Thursday, says nothing about Prague's agenda for the 27-nation bloc.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Sep 7th, 2008 at 03:39:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
EU Wants to Work with US on Georgia, Says Italian Minister | Europe | Deutsche Welle | 07.09.2008
The European Union wants to work closely with the United States on resolving the crisis in Georgia, Italy's foreign minister said after meeting with US Vice President Dick Cheney.

"This Caucasian crisis won't be resolved if there is not an intense collaboration -- that Europe wishes for, that the United States wishes for, and we will carry out," Italian Foreign Minister Franco Frattini told reporters on Sunday, Sept. 7, following brief talks with Cheney.

 

Frattini also said he had informed the US vice president of the EU's plan to send civilian observers to the disputed territory in the Caucasus region to help enforce the French-brokered peace deal agreed by Tbilisi and Moscow.

 

At an informal meeting in southern France on Saturday, EU foreign ministers laid out plans for the bloc's observer mission, which could begin as early as next month. They also called for an international probe into the cause of the five-day war.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Sep 7th, 2008 at 03:39:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Let me guess, you work with the US over this or you get to go hunting with Cheney.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Sun Sep 7th, 2008 at 06:05:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
A hardening of hearts in South Ossetia - International Herald Tribune

TSKHINVALI, Georgia: It is not easy for Ireya Alborova to root through the events that cracked this city in half, but one small bright memory stands out from 1989, when she glanced at the building across the street from her high school and spotted a flag.

It was a small Georgian flag, fixed in an attic window. Alborova was an unruly 15-year-old, preoccupied with her friends and her classes, and she took it in - a small piece of information - and kept walking. But now she thinks of it as the first signal of what was coming.

Most of the world now knows what happened: South Ossetians and Georgians began a drawn-out struggle to control this sleepy valley, where the main feature is a road that cuts through the Caucasian ridge into Russia. That flared into a global standoff last month, when Georgia pounded Tskhinvali, the capital of the enclave of South Ossetia, with rocket fire. Russian troops poured across the border in response.

But for Alborova's family, which is partly Georgian but wound up on the Ossetian side of the conflict, the crucial event took place during the last months of the Soviet Union, when the fabric of a multiethnic society tore apart with breathtaking speed. For the past 18 years, in a city encircled by Georgian positions, the family and its neighbors have been reliving the rifts and betrayals of that period.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Sep 7th, 2008 at 03:39:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Al Jazeera English - Europe - Russian allies condemn Georgia

Russia has won the support of six former Soviet nations over its war in Georgia during a meeting of member countries of the Collective Security Treaty Organisation (CSTO) in Moscow.

Dmitry Medvedev, the Russian president, said that the leaders of CSTO nations signed a declaration on Friday condemning an attack by Georgia which was aimed at regaining control of its breakaway province of South Ossetia.

Members of the group said they were "deeply concerned about an attempt by Georgia to solve the conflict in South Ossetia by force, which has led to numerous casualties among the civilian population and peacekeepers and entailed grave humanitarian consequences," the declaration said.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Sep 7th, 2008 at 03:41:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Fertile French crow over bébé boom - Times Online

They hold down demanding jobs but still manage to have at least two children and enjoy the highest life expectancy in Europe. Meet the so-called "Super-Frenchies", the Gallic wonder women behind France's "bébé boom".

Its economy may not be much of a model, but the country is the envy of Europe when it comes to making babies. The latest statistics show that France's population went up by 300,000 in 2006 to 63.3m, the best birth rate in three decades.

With a fertility rate of two children per woman, France is approaching the level needed to replenish the population, compared with 1.91 children in Britain and 1.37 for Germany.

The numbers show the extent to which policies to promote childbirth, including cash payments and subsidised nannies, have paid off.

[Murdoch Alert]
by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Sep 7th, 2008 at 03:43:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sorry, couldn't resist to link to it, but what arrogance!
by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Sep 7th, 2008 at 03:45:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hang on. Mark Steyn says France is about to be swamped in muslims. How can this be ;-)))  ?

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Sun Sep 7th, 2008 at 06:07:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
stop this nonsense of pseudo-penis comparisons to keep a steady or, gods forbid, a growing population with the sole aim to keep "our tribe bigger than yours"??

The challenge is to coax the idea that the world might be better off with a smaller human population and that, lordy, shrinking human populations are not necessarily a bad thing.

by Nomad on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 04:01:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
the problem then comes with an ageing, shrinking population. Tax revenues and prductivity can't sustain pensions or health provisions without ipacting the economy.

Yes, population must fall somehow, but pensionable age must increase and that is often unacceptable to those near pension age. Bad planning/ lack of foresight in the 50s and 60s.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 06:39:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Productivity has risen so much that indeed, it's perfectly possible to maintain pension age by rising contributions by those working. The problem is that right now, most of the gains of rising productivity are kept by the ownership class.

Auferre, trucidare, rapere, falsis nominibus imperium; atque, ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 10:40:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I will ask again: What is the cost of care of the elderly compared to the cost of care of the young? Because with  fewer births, you have fewer children to look after and educate. So, if the costs are similar, it seems not at all obvious to me that low birthrates means a larger costs for the dependant sections of society at all. Thus no need to up the retirement age.
My attempts to model population shrinkage. European Tribune - Socratic Economics XI: Demographics
by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 11:33:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
See Linca's point, which I think says it very well - 'declining populations needing subsidy' sounds like fear mongering of the 'And then they'll raise for taxes!!!' sort.

It's a stale old talking point. As you say, the numbers don't necessarily add up the way that CW has it.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 01:12:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I most definitely appreciate and agree with Linca's point as well. There are many things wrong with the "ahh, old people will make us bankrupt" argument. And thus many assumptions to challenge. Anyway, it is my opinion that we seem to suffer from some bad over consumption/production as a society, visible in environmental and energy questions. However, in a 'growth first' society, this is not a point that is easily made. This is why I like to make a distinction between 'quality of life' and 'quantity of lifestyle'. Whereas the former can include such things as more time to spend with friends and family, the latter is clearly only a measure of the amount of consumption of fashionable goods one can afford.
by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 01:26:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree that we can (and should) shrink population.
But too quick a shrink is next to unmanageable. Suddenly empty towns, infrastructure that needs to be stopped before it's obsolete, simply because there are fewer customers, while you need to retrain many people to care for the elderly when there are not enough coming out of the school system to fill the positions, immigration that no longer takes the time for integration...
And people tend to feel happier when there are children around (particularly old people).

So a good fertility rate target is not >2.1 indeed, but it's not 1.2 either. I would hazard 1.8 as a good target. I guess Russia, Germany, Italy and Spain really are rather low and will suffer, particularly in the countryside.
France and the UK in particular are too high.

"The womb that spawned that thing is fertile yet"

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Tue Sep 9th, 2008 at 01:47:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Could somebody explain to me why an exact number is always quoted as the ideal one? The population will increase a lot faster if every woman has two children at the age of 15, compared to having the same two children at 40. Obviously there is probably a strong correlation between the age one first has children, and the number of children, but is the correlation strong enough to be used for comparisons across cultures?
by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Tue Sep 9th, 2008 at 04:39:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In a steady state, the population won't rise wether women have their 2.1 children when they are 15 or when they are 40. The transition from 40 to 15 would indeed mean a population rise, though.

Auferre, trucidare, rapere, falsis nominibus imperium; atque, ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Wed Sep 10th, 2008 at 02:20:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You're right: I confused the two. So that the transition the other way means an additional population decrease.
by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Wed Sep 10th, 2008 at 02:41:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You don't get suddenly empty towns even with 1.2 children per women (especially not if there is net immigration, as it tends to be in all EU countries you named). Internal migration has a much stronger effect on that front...

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Wed Sep 10th, 2008 at 07:04:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I hadn't seen your diary before. I just skimmed through it now, and think it makes sense.

But there's still a big political problem, which I don't think was addressed there, namely that people usually will voluntarily support their children, even at a cost of a lower standard of living for themselves. Supporting the elderly will involve a transfer of resources from working people. These are resources that they would previously have been spending on their own children, but now have got used to spending on themselves. Raising the retirement age may be politically a lot easier than the alternatives.

by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Tue Sep 9th, 2008 at 04:36:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
These are resources that they would previously have been spending on their own children, but now have got used to spending on themselves.

Have they? We are talking about continuous transitions here.

Raising the retirement age may be politically a lot easier than the alternatives.

Raising the retirement age only makes sense if there are jobs to be taken (otherwise, we just shift the tax load from retirement contribution to jobless benefits).

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Wed Sep 10th, 2008 at 07:01:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Have they? We are talking about continuous transitions here

I think so, as every childless family has more disposable income, and gets used to spending it. I agree that it's a continuous transition, but I think that's how continuous transitions work. Not that I'm not suggesting that childless families are spending lavishly - other expenses such as housing may also adjust to the ability to spend.

As to your second point, shifting the tax load from retirement contribution to jobless benefits doesn't really make sense, as you say, unless the jobs are there. But the accepted wisdom seems to be that increasing the retirement age is necessary, while increasing taxes of any kind is bad. To oppose this means going against two pieces of accepted wisdom, which will be quite difficult, though hopefully not impossible.

by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Wed Sep 10th, 2008 at 07:42:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As to your second point, shifting the tax load from retirement contribution to jobless benefits doesn't really make sense, as you say, unless the jobs are there.

That's not exactly what I said. What I said was that if the jobs aren't there, increasing retirement age will, in effect, only shift the tax load from retirement contribution to jobless benefits (because more people are forced to stay in the labor force, thus more people can't find jobs).

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Wed Sep 10th, 2008 at 04:42:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sorry - I was drawing the conclusion from what you said, and I accidentally added the words "as you say". The question will be how to convince politicians to increase taxes, rather than raising the retirement age, and then treating unemployment as a completely unrelated problem.
by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Wed Sep 10th, 2008 at 04:53:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Al Jazeera English - Europe - Armenians protest Gul visit

Abdullah Gul, the Turkish president, has been greeted by protests after arriving in Armenia to attend a football match in an attempt to improve relations between the two countries.

Gul's arrival on Saturday in Yerevan, the Armenian capital,  marked the first visit to the country by a Turkish head of state since Armenian independence in 1991.

The two countries have long argued over Armenia's attempt to have recognised as genocide a massacre of hundreds of thousands of Armenians by Ottoman Turks during the First World War.

Hundreds of Armenians lined the route of Gul's motorcade to protest against Ankara's refusal to consider the 1915-1917 atrocities as crimes against humanity.

Bardasar Akhpar, a demonstrator, said: "We are here because we want to tell the entire world that we do not forget the genocide of 1915.

"We will not welcome Gul nor any other Turk until they have recognised the genocide."

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Sep 7th, 2008 at 03:45:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Spain's environmentalists sound alarm
A building boom is endangering some of the most precious flora and fauna in Europe, and sucking an already arid region dry.
By Tracy Wilkinson, Los Angeles Times

An unbridled building boom, which first turned much of Spain's once captivating coastline into a mile-wide belt of shopping malls, vacation homes and sunburned foreigners, has more recently spread deep into the country's heartland, endangered some of the most precious and diverse flora and fauna in Europe and sucked an already arid region dry of water.

Nearly 30% of Spain is in the process of becoming desert, according to a report by Adena, Spain's branch of the World Wildlife Fund...

Fueled by corruption, speculation and a hot market that only recently cooled, vast patches of regions such as Castilla-La Mancha are being swallowed up by enormous housing developments, often on land designated as national parks or as protected zones because of delicate ecosystems and near-extinct wildlife.

by Magnifico on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 01:33:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I wonder what's happening to underground water levels. Water is being wasted like it's free all across Spain, Barcelona is just a taste of things to come. Galicia is gonna be a boom area when people realise it's the only bit where it rains reliably.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 06:42:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Are you saying Spaniards haven't realised it rains reliably in Galicia?

Just like Britons go to Spain because they have realised it rains more reliably in Britain than in Spain, right?

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 06:48:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, what I'm saying is that climatically Spain is more northern Sahara than southern europe. Desertification will happen, especially if the aquifers are drained wastefully. Then the population will face living among the sanddunes or going where it rains.

My money's on galicia in the long run.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 08:06:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
We'll just sell the 'villas' in the sanddunes to British expats and move to Britain which by then may have a Mediterranean climate ;-P

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 08:24:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Actually I recommend western france as a compromise. Britain may become too wet given the government's eagerness to build on every floodplain it can set it's beady eyes upon.

And Ireland should be intensively re-foresting the west before it runs into similar problems.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 08:38:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Britain, Brittany, same thing :-P

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 08:46:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Obviously.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 09:12:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
FT.com: LSE suffers huge outage (September 8 2008)
Trading on the London Stock Exchange was suspended for more than four hours on Monday after a computer fault led to the longest halt in cash equity trading for more than eight years.

A spokeswoman for the exchange said it was investigating "connectivity issues" and that the connection would be brought back in a controlled way. She gave no details on what had caused the problem.

The LSE - the world's second largest stock exchange - published a website offering live tracking of the problem.



A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 09:56:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
WORLD
by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Sep 7th, 2008 at 03:29:30 PM EST
BBC NEWS | Americas | Venezuela plans Russia navy visit

Venezuela says it plans to hold joint naval exercises in its territorial waters with Russian forces in November.

A senior Venezuelan naval officer said four Russian ships would take part in the exercises, which would also involve Venezuelan aircraft and submarines.

Correspondents say the move is likely to raise concern in the US, whose relations with Russia have been soured by Moscow's recent conflict in Georgia.

Washington already has rocky relations with Venezuela's President Hugo Chavez.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Sep 7th, 2008 at 03:34:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
BBC NEWS | Science/Nature | Shun meat, says UN climate chief

People should consider eating less meat as a way of combating global warming, says the UN's top climate scientist.

Rajendra Pachauri, who chairs the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), will make the call at a speech in London on Monday evening.

UN figures suggest that meat production puts more greenhouse gases into the atmosphere than transport.

But a spokeswoman for the UK's National Farmers' Union (NFU) said methane emissions from farms were declining.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Sep 7th, 2008 at 03:34:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
[Crickets...]
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 01:13:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Coming to grips with Russia's new nerve - International Herald Tribune

WE all must think anew about Russia. But this process will prove harder for some of us than for others. When I grew up in the late 1960s and early '70s, the Soviet Union had already begun to look like the Ottoman Empire on its last legs; the face of Soviet Communism belonged to Leonid Brezhnev, with his drooping cheeks and beetle brows and thick, square glasses.

What was there to fear from this pitiful giant? In my left-wing, antiwar, social democratic hothouse world, anti-Communism seemed almost as absurd as Communism. John Kennedy's call in 1961 to "bear any burden" in the struggle between two world systems was as remote to us as the sectarian debates of the 1930s between Trotskyites, Shachtmanites and so on.

We were, unlike an older generation of "cold war liberals," anti-anti-Communists. Fear of the spread of Communism had gotten us into Vietnam, and rationalized American support for right-wing dictators across the third world. That fear, to us, was thus a far more dangerous force in the world than the thing that we as a country were afraid of -- Soviet and Chinese expansionism.

"The war against Communism is over," declared George McGovern, our tribune, in 1972. Several years later, a much more centrist figure, President Jimmy Carter, would lament the "inordinate fear of Communism" that he said dominated public discussion of foreign policy. (That remark looked slightly less sage after the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in 1979.)

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Sep 7th, 2008 at 03:37:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Rice says she has an open relationship with Iraqi Prime Minister Maliki

Actually this is about the story that the US has been spying on Maliki [dog bites man]

by MarekNYC on Sun Sep 7th, 2008 at 04:02:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Obama Appears on O'Reilly's Show | The Trail | washingtonpost.com

HARRISBURG, Penn. -- Sen. Barack Obama made his first appearance on Fox News's conservative talk show "The O'Reilly Factor" and was pressed on his foreign policy views.

According to excerpts released by Fox, host Bill O'Reilly questioned Obama on two issues that Republicans view as vulnerabilities, his opposition to the troop surge in Iraq and his willingness to talk even with U.S. adversaries.

"I think that the surge has succeeded in ways that nobody anticipated," Obama told O'Reilly of President Bush's decision last year to increase troop levels. "It's succeeded beyond our wildest dreams."

But he added, "The Iraqis still haven't taken responsibility. And we still don't have that kind of political reconciliation."

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Sep 7th, 2008 at 05:00:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Like many people, I do not think any democrat should give Fox the time of day. This was a mistake.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 06:48:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I hope that people won't take offense to me linking to another blog instead of directly to the story but I think that Bob really nailed this one.  It's shit like this from Obama that makes me want to bash my head into the goddamned wall.

Obama May Delay Rescinding Giveaways for Super Rich

Honestly I didn't think I read this right, but....I did.

Obama said:


he would delay rescinding President Bush's tax cuts on wealthy Americans if he becomes the next president and the economy is in a recession, suggesting such an increase would further hurt the economy.


and even further:


Even if we're still in a recession, I'm going to go through with my tax cuts


This is trickle upon economics, a supply-side Reagan philosophy that is not proven to work.    Where is it written that running these budget deficits and giving tax cuts to the super rich helps the economy?


Their own Congressional Budget Office has said these tax cuts failed to stimulate the economy.  

The short-term effects of EGTRRA and JGTRRA in stimulating aggregate demand in the economy have largely dissipated by now, and the supply-side effects of those policies are uncertain but are probably small




And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg
by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Sun Sep 7th, 2008 at 06:07:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This is the excised bit:

Nevertheless, Obama has no plans to extend the Bush tax cuts beyond their expiration date, as Republican John McCain advocates. Instead, Obama wants to push for his promised tax cuts for the middle class, he said in a broadcast interview aired Sunday.

Personally I would say screw the middle class, give financial incentives that help the poor. But what he described is not the standard "trickle upon economics" via "tax cuts to the super rich".

In my woefully under-informed opinion, Obama will indeed probably be pretty bad in terms of how and to whom he gives tax breaks. I have no doubt the super rich will do just fine if he becomes president. But I doubt very much he will ever be caught actually explicitly saying that. Of the evidence can be produced against him, very little of it will come from his own mouth because, whatever else he is, he is not stupid.

by det on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 02:39:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The problem that I see is that he's basically a neo-liberal of the Rubinite variety.  Which is to say that he doesn't have his head stuck in the sand when it comes to the existence of inequality, just that he doesn't realize that the problem is an economic system that redistributes wealth to the wealthy.  The rich get richer and the poor get poorer.  And they've convinced themselves that education is the answer, as though the bad boys of Wall Street are going to let them off the hook because they've got a bacculaureate degree.

Obama does have a few good economic advisers, the best in my opinion being Alan Blinder.  Blinder's cash for clunkers program creates an economic stimulus targeted at the poor and gives lie to those that argue the government can do no good.

The plan calls for the government to purchase older vehicles that emit large amounts of pollution and get poor gas mileage to be purchased.  The cut off is generally 7 years, but the monsters that we are talking about may be from the 1970s or earlier.  The government offers something like 2x Kelly Blue Book (The standard American guide to used car values, available online no less.)

I think that coupled with a government contract with the big three (Ford, Chrysler, GM) to purchase at least half the line production of a stripped down no frills fuel efficient vehicle that offered the bare minimum, that you could both save the US auto industry, cut US oil consumption and greenhouse gas emissions, all while creating a recurring cash stimulus into the hands of people who will actually spend the money.  Demand creation, not trickle upon economics.

And it doesn't have to stop there.  The greatest limitation to low income individuals trying to justify the capital expense of an energy saving feature is access to capital.  A no interest loan allowing low income individuals to finance the long term energy cost savings would create a tremendous economic stimulus.  These are folks who will spend the money.

This idea isn't unheard of.  Spain has something similar called Plan Renovable that they put into place in the 1990s.  I'd like to get more info on it, but I've hit a wall searching on the internet.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 10:39:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Plan Renove is the right keyword for your search...

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 10:53:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That, I imagine, will help a great deal.


And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg
by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 06:19:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What did you expect ? Please don't express surprise. Obama is in Washington terms a centrist. He talks constantly about reaching across the aisle. This means he thinks he has things in common with repugnican plutocrats, which implies he can have little in common with the middle class and nothing with the working class people he's relying on to vote him into power.

His centrism puts him economically well to the right, not only of the democrat party, but entirely to the right of most of the USA.

does he think that keeping the tax cuts will give him an easier ride from the press pack ? I dunno, charlie Gibson of ABC seems to think his $200K makes him on average earnings, so we know they aren't remotely connected with reality either. But it's a huge big clue he won't do anything if he agrees with repugnican frames.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 06:58:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's not surprise, just consternation.

The irony of the political spectrum that you give is its inaccuracy.  Americans are willing to move to the Left, they just lack leadership.

I swear, I'm to the point that I've thought that maybe it's time to get to work organizing local chapters of something like Die Linke here.  I'm not voting for Obama, I'm going to be writing in my vote for Nader, mostly to express my dissatisfaction with what the Democratic party has deemed to offer up this time around.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 10:43:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You're in a key swing state, so your vote really matters. If McCain wins, I expect no criticism of his policies. We attack Iran - that's what you voted for. Supreme Court with a far right majority for a generation and all the decisions that come from that - including, by the way, the hamstringing of any possibility of the major move to left you claim you want - again, that's what you're voting for. Further deterioration of America's fucked health care system - that's what you're voting for.

There are two choices available. That's it. If you didn't like Obama, the time to work against him was in the primaries. I did. The 'heightening the contradictions' strategy is both morally questionable and very unlikely to work. For one thing, it's more likely to push the Dems to the right rather than the left. Nader ain't leadership, he's a Repub funded concern troll working on their behalf, just like the PUMA's.  Take a good look at how Dem legislators from swing areas voted after 2000 - did they move left? Eight years after 2000, with all that happened, you'd have to be a fool to think that electing Republicans will make things better.

If you've got the energy for it, organize where you are on a local level to try to move the Democrats leftwards. City council, education boards, county dem committees, etc.

by MarekNYC on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 11:40:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I will work to move the Democrats leftwards at the local level, but you know what, I've been doing that for the past 10 years, and we still get neo-liberal dipshits like Obama at the head of the national ticket.

Marek, how many people do you know who've been told that the reason that their job was sent overseas was for the better good?

How many people do you personally know who have worked in a factory that has been offshored?

In you own community, what percent of the population knows someone who's suffering hardship because we've been told that there is no alternative (TINA) to voting for the lesser of two evils for the past 20 years?

How many empty lots are there where you live that were once factories that supported thousands of jobs that allowed your friends and family to enter the middle class?

I will not be told to how to vote out of some vague sense that there is no alternative, because when we are held to that standard, there is in fact no alternative.


And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 06:36:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
'Vague sense that there is no alternative' - There. Is No. Alternative. Not in November. You get to choose between Obama and McCain. A vote for Nader is a half vote for McCain. If you truly beleive that that is the better alternative, go whole hog and vote for McCain, but don't kid yourself. If you didn't live in a key swing state I'd let this go, but you do. Are you so naive as to think that there is no difference between the two. Hell, just the other day you were talking about how you liked Buchanan - someone who apart from his racism is actually to the right of Obama on economics. Are you simply reacting to tone and anger? I don't get it.  

As far as poverty and lost industrial jobs go - guess what, in my area they're long, long gone - they were exported in the fifties to all those places which have been losing factories for the past thirty years.

In any case, traditional industrial labour is not the solution. Productivity keeps going up. Even if we cut our manufactured products imports by half, that would be what - a couple percentage points of GDP, a couple million jobs, at ever decreasing real wages? What we need to do is transform the service sector the way the industrial sector was transformed from the New Deal through the fifties, from poorly paid, crappy jobs, to well paid ones that provided a decent life. We can't go back to the sixties economy.

by MarekNYC on