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7/8/8 - or is it 8/7/8? - Open Thread

by Jerome a Paris
Thu Aug 7th, 2008 at 10:02:57 AM EST

tomorrow we will have eight-overload


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Concord Resolution - A Column on a "New View on Money"

Some time ago a close working colleague approached me about the possibility of putting out a short daily message, a "column" he called it, which offered my take on the economic news of the day. He wanted something to circulate amongst people he had been working with on a monetary-reform initiative. In concept he envisioned a slightly extended economic thought for the day that could act as a counter-perspective to the seemingly endless stream of dire stories pouring forth from the media. Ideally, it would not be lengthy, perhaps 400 to 500 words; just long enough to convey a meaningful thought, and short enough to read "over morning coffee," or some such break in people's hectic day.

I am a self-taught layman who has been pursuing an independent inquiry into the field of money and economics for almost three decades. In my present life, I travel around the country full-time responding to invitations to have conversations on the subject. I have discovered many things that are for the most part not being discussed elsewhere, whether in academia, media or the culture in general. This column will be one fruit of that quest.

My purpose is not to offer a Polyannish "bright side" to balance the gloomy realities. It is, rather, to offer an alternative economic worldview that is thought out from a wholly different taproot. Hopefully, there will be real answers here to our economic dilemmas. If this sounds abstract for now, or perhaps even a bit arrogant, the reader is invited to judge for him or herself the truthfulness of this proposition in the unfolding of the dialogue

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Aug 7th, 2008 at 10:19:38 AM EST
BBC NEWS | Health | 'Can anyone hear that picture?'

US scientists have discovered people who can "hear" what they see.

The rare form of synaesthesia - a condition where senses intermingle - came to light after a student reported "hearing sounds" from a screensaver.

Researchers at the California Institute of Technology then found three more people with the same condition, New Scientist magazine reported.

Those affected performed better in tests of recognising visual patterns than those without the condition.

A more common form of the condition is being able to perceive numbers or letters as colours.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Aug 7th, 2008 at 10:19:54 AM EST
and with tongue in cheak:

Here is some information about the number eight:

Numerology, Astrology, 2008 Beijing Olympics and the Date 8-8-08

Here is some information about the number eight:

8: The number 8 is tied to influence, m.o.n.e.y, karma, action, business success, business failure, control, material objects, status, loss, gain, administration, management, ego, leadership, power.
Balanced 8 energy: prosperous, high-powered, commanding, stamina, self-confident, persuasive, financial awareness, effective, ambitious, businesslike, clear-headed, disciplined, material freedom, honorable, enterprising.

Over-balanced 8 energy: abuses power, cold-blooded, egotistical, overreaction to m.o.n.e.y, scheming, aggressive, materialistic, corrupt, demanding, domineering, preoccupied with power and m.o.n.e.y, unsympathetic, over-ambitious, confrontational, rebellious, coarse.

Under-balanced 8 energy: passive, vulnerable, fearful, insecure, avoids power and m.o.n.e.y, poor judgment, gives personal power away, shortsighted.

As indicated above, eight can represent great rewards, yet it can also symbolize huge challenges, depending on the rest of the indicators in the charts.

The date 8-8-2008 is really, on the most important fundamental, numerological level, 8-8-1 (2+0+0+8=10, 1+0=1).

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Aug 7th, 2008 at 10:23:13 AM EST
Dutch teacher locates 'cosmic ghost'-Health/Sci-The Times of India
A Dutch primary school teacher has discovered what some are calling a "cosmic ghost", a strange, gaseous object with a hole in the middle that may represent a new class of astronomical objects.

The teacher, Hanny van Arkel, discovered the object while volunteering in the Galaxy Zoo project, which enlists the help of members of the public to classify galaxies online.

"At first, we had no idea what it was. It could have been in our solar system, or at the edge of the universe," Yale University astrophysicist Kevin Schawinski, a member and co-founder of the Galaxy Zoo team, said.

The find, nicknamed "Hanny's Voorwerp" (Dutch for object), soon had scientists training their telescopes on the object.
"What we saw was really a mystery," Schawinski said.

"The Voorwerp didn't contain any stars," he said. Made entirely of very hot gas, the eerie green object is illuminated by remnant light from the nearby galaxy IC 2497.
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Thu Aug 7th, 2008 at 10:46:57 AM EST
"I was on the Veld when my wife saw the Voorwerp"

(...)

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Thu Aug 7th, 2008 at 02:54:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's 8/8/7.

2008-08-07 - that way it sorts correctly.

by Magnifico on Thu Aug 7th, 2008 at 11:32:26 AM EST
I beg to differ: it's 07/08/2008...

"Ne te courbe que pour aimer..." René Char
by Melanchthon on Thu Aug 7th, 2008 at 12:00:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
either works easily, the one that works unecessarily difficultly for computer based number sorts is the US date format, resulting in really stupidly inelegant code.

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Thu Aug 7th, 2008 at 02:02:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Okay, people! I have to go to work, so please not date wars tonight! :-D
by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Aug 7th, 2008 at 12:04:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I sort all my files by systematically giving them a name that starts with yymmdd (and then includes an explicit descriptive). It's extremely useful.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Thu Aug 7th, 2008 at 12:07:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I give to all my professional documents a name that refers clearly to the content and ends by ddmmyy...

"Ne te courbe que pour aimer..." René Char
by Melanchthon on Thu Aug 7th, 2008 at 01:40:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's obviously 8-7-08.

Get with the program!

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."

by poemless on Thu Aug 7th, 2008 at 02:20:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In adding a date to the end of gradesheets to avoid problems in adding grades to an older gradesheet and then having to collate at the end of term, its 080807.

After living more than three decades in the US then a decade in Oz, to avoid my own confusion when signing documents with a date, its 07Aug2008.


Utsukushikereba sore de ii

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Thu Aug 7th, 2008 at 08:39:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
From the Orange Place. StraightTalk Express...

...collides with minivan.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Aug 7th, 2008 at 11:55:38 AM EST
Brilliant.  I myself would never have thought of rounding up all the economists and shipping them off to Iraq.  I gotta say, this impresses me a lot.
by tjbuff (timhess@adelphia.net) on Thu Aug 7th, 2008 at 12:13:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's not pancakes we can believe in.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Thu Aug 7th, 2008 at 12:25:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Where is everyone?  

You're all over on the July 8th Open Thread, I bet.  Poor confused souls. ;)

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."

by poemless on Thu Aug 7th, 2008 at 02:50:21 PM EST
Stopping by while eating lunch.

Then I go back to painting.

Och nu den svenska kocken bakar en Alaskan älg jägare. Bonk! Bonk! Bonk!

by ATinNM on Thu Aug 7th, 2008 at 03:23:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You paint?

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."
by poemless on Thu Aug 7th, 2008 at 03:44:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yup.

Both rooms, two coats.

;-)

Och nu den svenska kocken bakar en Alaskan älg jägare. Bonk! Bonk! Bonk!

by ATinNM on Thu Aug 7th, 2008 at 07:05:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I used to do oil painting (ATinNM Processed Imitation Art Like Canvases©) but the stuff I found interesting and ... uh ... "Artistic" ... all my artist friends along with gallery dealers and patrons thought was too geometrical, too mathematical, too 'Logical,' too rational, un-artistic, a-artistic, and generally rotten, awful, tedious, and "Why Do You Bother to Paint This."

=oh, well =

So I haven't picked-up a brush in over 25 years.

Och nu den svenska kocken bakar en Alaskan älg jägare. Bonk! Bonk! Bonk!

by ATinNM on Thu Aug 7th, 2008 at 07:16:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I was in London. Now I am back. I stopped at the bookstore to get a little guide to Cologne.

Ad astra per aspera
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Thu Aug 7th, 2008 at 03:48:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
From a long time friend from the (once) industrial heartland of the USA:

Ten worst and best ideas of Marxism

"Beware of the man who does not talk, and the dog that does not bark." Cheyenne

by maracatu on Thu Aug 7th, 2008 at 03:52:28 PM EST
Can I be a Communist without being a Marxist?  Can I be a Marxist without associating with nauseatingly trite and unbelievably annoying people?  They kind of give me the heebeejeebees.  Is it just me or is there a certain anti-intellectualism in Marxism (despite the fact that probably anyone who would refer to themselves as a Marxist would also probably refer to themselves as an intellectual)?  Maybe it's just how curiously boring they are.  Seriously.  They're supposed to be revolutionaries.  Yet, there's a remarkable lack of excitement.  Or is it excitement about really very unexciting things?  I don't know.  But something about them puts me straight to sleep.

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."
by poemless on Thu Aug 7th, 2008 at 04:26:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I wouldn't put them all in a box.  Some of them (like my friend) are actually from the working class.

"Beware of the man who does not talk, and the dog that does not bark." Cheyenne
by maracatu on Thu Aug 7th, 2008 at 04:30:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, of course, since I might be a Marxist, and I find them annoying, obviously there are different kinds of Marxists.  

I was referring to  their "rhetoric" (too kind a word, really), not bona fides.  

FWIW, I was born to a working class family, but I don't consider that a credential.  I'm also a union member.  Which is precisely why I have little faith in them.  

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."

by poemless on Thu Aug 7th, 2008 at 04:37:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, what do you think of the lists?

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."
by poemless on Thu Aug 7th, 2008 at 04:38:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
They are interesting (since they were listed by my friend of many years, there is an added dimension which only someone who has known you for a long time can appreciate).  

Otherwise, I don't consider myself qualified to comment on any of them except perhaps the labor theory of value (which, as an economist, I must teach my pupils).  In fact I left a comment on precisely that.

"Beware of the man who does not talk, and the dog that does not bark." Cheyenne

by maracatu on Thu Aug 7th, 2008 at 05:01:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Maybe it's just how curiously boring they are.

You could say the same thing about economists!
:-)

"Beware of the man who does not talk, and the dog that does not bark." Cheyenne

by maracatu on Thu Aug 7th, 2008 at 05:52:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I could say the same thing about a lot of people, I'm sure.  But economists are not supposed to be devoted to worldwide revolution.  Well, aside from maybe a finge element at ET. :)  No one expects economists to be interesting (sorry, all of you very interesting economists my friends) but surely revolutionaries are expected to be, I don't know, engaging.  At the very least...

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."
by poemless on Thu Aug 7th, 2008 at 06:01:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But economists are not supposed to be devoted to worldwide revolution.  Well, aside from maybe a finge element at ET. :)

We are.  You're just not in on it. ;)

I have to concur.  Economists are generally a pretty boring group of people.  It's the ones with their eyes on revolution of some kind that you have to watch out for (cough supply-siders cough Austrians cough).  Except the Keynesians.  They rock.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Thu Aug 7th, 2008 at 06:24:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Enslaving farmers in low income nations to Monsanto and ADM ... what could be more exciting than that?

Hmmm ... maybe its the grey camoflage ... given that nobody pursuing the Green Revolution was ever supposed to describe it in those terms.

Utsukushikereba sore de ii

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Thu Aug 7th, 2008 at 08:45:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Outright bondage Slavery doesn't pay.

Better off getting the buggers into debt and turning them into wage-slaves or sharecroppers.


Och nu den svenska kocken bakar en Alaskan älg jägare. Bonk! Bonk! Bonk!

by ATinNM on Thu Aug 7th, 2008 at 10:08:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
... don't ever accuse Monsanto or ADM of not running the numbers on which form of slavery is better for their bottom line.


Utsukushikereba sore de ii
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Thu Aug 7th, 2008 at 10:29:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
LOL

At least until the governments of the developing world tell them to get stuffed which, I suspect, will be 2.3 nanoseconds after it becomes clear the US military can no longer effectively intervene and the US economy has cratered.

Och nu den svenska kocken bakar en Alaskan älg jägare. Bonk! Bonk! Bonk!

by ATinNM on Thu Aug 7th, 2008 at 10:36:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
... on the payroll?

Its more like 2.3 nanoseconds after China makes them a better offer.

Utsukushikereba sore de ii

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Thu Aug 7th, 2008 at 11:10:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I always found Marxists to be kind of annoying, but the ones I dealt with were never really willing to have serious discussions.  It basically boiled down to, "I know what's best for you, and if you disagree you're clearly just brainwashed."  Yawn.  Same goes for the more hardcore libertarians.

Some were great people, of course.  And assholes aren't limited to one ideology.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Thu Aug 7th, 2008 at 06:27:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I should add, too, in fairness to Uncle Karl: I got the sense that a lot of self-proclaimed Marxists I met had never actually read Marx, similar to libertarians and Adam Smith or Thomas Jefferson.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Thu Aug 7th, 2008 at 06:29:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Marxism seems to be a happy beachside hang-out for authoritarians.

A lot of today's neolibs and some of the neocons would have been Marxists fifty years ago - the kind of people who would have gone on a tour of Stalin's Russia and come home raving about worker paradise, even when news of the purges was filtering through.

My General Theory of InsanityTM is that authoritarian world views are much better at surviving, thriving and being influential than more thoughtful world views.

Not having to deal with reality gives authoritarian belief systems a competitive edge in meme space - at least until the believers drive off a cliff and kill themselves and everyone else who gets in their way.

It doesn't entirely matter that Marx was presciently right about some things and very wrong about others. I suspect Marxism (and neoliberal economics, and fascism, and not a few religions and other belief systems) are appealing because they may make it easy to create an illusion of personal authority through relatively uncritical repetition of received dogma.

So - boring to listen to and irritating to be around. And often tragic when in power.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Aug 7th, 2008 at 08:41:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think the NYT's chief Republican hack, David Brooks, was actually a Marxist at one point.  So there ya go.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Thu Aug 7th, 2008 at 11:35:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And Irving Kristol was a Trotsykist. There are people who claim that the neocons policies derive directly from the Trotskyist ideas of permanent revolution.
by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Fri Aug 8th, 2008 at 03:31:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Can I be a Communist without being a Marxist?

Depends on your definition of "Marxist." If you mean someone who believes that social structures derive from control of resources and means of production, then I have a hard time thinking of any flavour of socialism or communism that is not Marxist in some way, shape or form.

But if by "Marxist" you mean the full prescription - including such charming features as the proletarian dictatorship... then there are plenty of communist and socialist traditions that are not "Marxist." Syndicalism, some flavours of anarchism, social democracy (not to be confused with social democratic parties, who are now mostly Tory-lite...), various more or less (usually rather less than more) influential groups of M/Ls...

- Jake

Ceterum censeo Chicago esse delendam

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Fri Aug 8th, 2008 at 12:00:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yeah, I don't know what club I belong to.  Except I'm pretty certain I am not an anarchist.  I do genuinely think all property is theft, as cliche as that sounds.  I can't find one thing good to say about capitalism and markets.  The terms "dictatorship" and "democracy" hold little real meaning for me, since they're used so indiscriminately these days.  I'm not sure what it would mean to be pro- or anti- either of those things.  It does seem social structures derive from control of resources and means of production, if we expand "resources" and "production" to include intangibles.  Where I break from Marxists, I guess, is the romanticising of thankless work.  Honestly, there's nothing glorious about factory work.  Or most work when you think about it.  There are jobs that allow you to reach your full potential, but they are few and far between.  But I'm totally down with  "From each according to ability, to each according to need" and the bit about religion being the opiate of the masses.

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."
by poemless on Fri Aug 8th, 2008 at 12:55:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
My reply, x-posted
I think 2 is complete and utter nonsense. History is the study of the past, and (like art!) involves more than just power relations (and those relations were between far more than socioeconomic classes, as is demonstrated by the mere fact of warfare).
3 disregards the embedded nature of value in ecology just as much as capitalism does.
6 and 9 clearly contradict each other and can best be replaced by the obvious, bland 'thought needs to be bound to action, and vice versa'.
8 is too general to be distilled into consistently directed action (e.g. some elements of reality need to be changed, for which you need to work with and thereby reinforce others, which is a pragmatic equation, etc., etc.).

I agree with the other 5, though. And from the worst list I am fond of the 'Religion is the Opium of the People' quote and tentatively favour a 'social(ist(?)) market economy' (in the end I think how a society deals with information is more important than its economic system).


Not perfectly formulated, but it broadly reflects what I think.

Everyone's got an opinion. It would be quite hard to give an informative account of the why.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Thu Aug 7th, 2008 at 04:55:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
(tap water drinking commie)

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."
by poemless on Thu Aug 7th, 2008 at 06:02:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Guilty as charged.

I actually know people who don't drink it.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Fri Aug 8th, 2008 at 03:18:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
OK.

Went over and read the blog entry.  Started reading the comments and got about 1/2 way down and ...

Eeee-ooooouuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu!

Same old drivel: wash, rinse, repeat.

The fact the Communist Revolution occurred in a backward mostly agrarian economy and state (Russia) rather than an advanced industrial economy and state (Germany) might be a clue Marxism has a fundamental screw loose doesn't seem to occur to them.

Och nu den svenska kocken bakar en Alaskan älg jägare. Bonk! Bonk! Bonk!

by ATinNM on Thu Aug 7th, 2008 at 11:03:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Tomorrow's photoblog theme - Colours.  Any colour or combination of colours that you like.  Not too restrictive, I hope.

Ad astra per aspera
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Thu Aug 7th, 2008 at 04:06:15 PM EST
It's bad enough y'all can't write your dates properly, but ya can't even spell "colors" properly.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Thu Aug 7th, 2008 at 06:31:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
American - it's so 'non-u'.
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Aug 7th, 2008 at 08:43:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Conservation of Peak U.

Unless we conserve the U for future generations terrible things mst happen.  Yo wold be pset to nderstand what npleastentness occrs when we rn ot of them.

Och nu den svenska kocken bakar en Alaskan älg jägare. Bonk! Bonk! Bonk!

by ATinNM on Thu Aug 7th, 2008 at 10:15:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Aug 6 is Hiroshima Day. I saw only one small article in the middle of the NY Times.

Dropping the bombs was probably the biggest crime against humanity ever committed as single events. No wonder the media doesn't like to bring it up.

I won't get into the arguments about it ending the war sooner. There are just some moral arguments that don't fit into a cost/benefit scheme.

Only in the last few months have some photos of the aftermath been released. As with the current wars showing people what their support of militarism really looks like is not to be allowed.

The bombs were acts of vengeance, something that the US does a lot. I tried to coin a new word to reflect taking out your desire for revenge on those that you can reach rather than those who committed the crimes, but haven't found it yet. "Blood lust" was suggested to me, I'll use that for the time being.

The kangaroo court in Guantanamo that just convicted a taxi driver is a perfect example. Can't get Bin Laden, take it out an the nearest person at hand.

I think the short sentence was designed so that his incarceration would end with the present administration. This leaves the hot potato of "enemy combatant" to be dealt with by the next admin.

Policies not Politics
---- Daily Landscape

by rdf (robert.feinman@gmail.com) on Thu Aug 7th, 2008 at 07:55:17 PM EST


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