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Monday Open Thread

by Jerome a Paris
Mon Sep 1st, 2008 at 10:33:33 AM EST

Thread Away A Labor Day

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Monday Open Thread | 262 comments (262 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 1)

You beat me to it! Day full of meetings, it's passing fast though.

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Mon Sep 1st, 2008 at 10:35:01 AM EST

Re: Monday Open Thread (4.00 / 4)

Ugg, I've got to start writing a cv. I haven't written one in over a decade and can't really remember how it's done anymore. I need a job, I just don't want one.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Sep 1st, 2008 at 10:40:58 AM EST

Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 1)

Ugghh is right!, but I have a suggestion:

Get a really supportive person to sit with you --and your favorite beer-- at the computer, to let you procrastinate a while and then brainstorm a cv of any sort. Even if it is copying your last one. Next, you take a break to laugh and rant, before you try to polish it ... a little.

Then you give yourself a big treat, (rinse and repeat for several days).

Another way is to first, find a motivating job offer that will inspire a cv out of you. (;

Ooops! Forgot the essential question: What do I want to do when I grow up?

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. --Charu Saxena.

by metavision on Mon Sep 1st, 2008 at 02:05:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 1)

Damn, really supportive person ??? Errr, {blank}. Copy my last one ??? No copy of that exists.

I'll wing it..eventually.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Sep 1st, 2008 at 02:31:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 1)

If you can wait until we meet, I can help you to draft a CV. I've done it many times for friends and others...

"Ne te courbe que pour aimer..." René Char

by Melanchthon on Mon Sep 1st, 2008 at 02:21:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 1)

I'd be very grateful. I'll still have to do one in the next day or so but if you would critique it for me when we meet that'd be fabulous as i'm pretty sure I won't get a job that quickly.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Sep 1st, 2008 at 02:36:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 1)

ps I'm sending you an email

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Sep 1st, 2008 at 02:37:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 1)

Now that gustav is calming down and the Katrina replay seems to have been avoided, will the repugs get on with partying or are they gonna use the excuse to try to avoid the spotlight ?

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Sep 1st, 2008 at 10:42:15 AM EST

Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 1)

Looks like we really dodged a bullet here. Western Cuba damaged the storm quite a bit, and it never fully recovered over the warmer areas of the Gulf. By the time the eye wall started becoming more defined there, it hit the cooler area near the Louisiana shore.

Very good.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Mon Sep 1st, 2008 at 11:48:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Cuba Links (4.00 / 3)

I discovered this Cuban blogger with good links

"Beware of the man who does not talk, and the dog that does not bark." Cheyenne

by maracatu on Mon Sep 1st, 2008 at 12:21:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 1)

Cuba damaged the storm? You can't be accused of an anthropocentric view :-)

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Mon Sep 1st, 2008 at 01:09:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Monday Open Thread (4.00 / 3)

Its a self-reproducing dynamic system, mate, and Cuba sure as shit damaged it.

Land does hella damage to a cyclonic tropic storm.

Utsukushikereba sore de ii

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Mon Sep 1st, 2008 at 10:31:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The way things look in the tropics (4.00 / 2)

I doubt the Republicans will get around to holding their convention until October! Two more storms are headed that way!

By the way, Pinar del Rio got whacked in Cuba. Here is a local online newspaper with copious photos.

"Beware of the man who does not talk, and the dog that does not bark." Cheyenne

by maracatu on Mon Sep 1st, 2008 at 12:40:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The way things look in the tropics (4.00 / 2)

Have no doubts about the cancellation. As Jon Stewart said to Amy Goodman in an interview, "The Republicans are going to give every effort to foster the ILLUSION that they are concerned", or something there-abouts.

The rooster crows at MIDNITE. Ooooooooooh!

by THE Twank (paszeski__aaaaaaatttttt__yahoo.com) on Mon Sep 1st, 2008 at 01:00:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Oh, and the parties have by no means ... (none / 1)

... been canceled, only the coverage of the parties.

Party On (Yglesias)

Utsukushikereba sore de ii

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Mon Sep 1st, 2008 at 10:34:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Labor Day news (4.00 / 2)

Received by email (and sorry for the US-centric nature of this content):

American Rights at Work launched today a $5 million TV ad campaign for the Employee Free Choice Act. (...) You can see the ad, featuring a portly CEO on a see saw, here:

AP piece on the ad campaign
Write up on our site
Press release
Second, a bunch of folks are participating in the Take Back Labor Day blogswarm, which you can read more about here

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Mon Sep 1st, 2008 at 10:50:03 AM EST

Re: Labor Day news (none / 1)

Good ad.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Mon Sep 1st, 2008 at 12:52:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Labor Day news (none / 0)

Have never been involved in unions; will need to do some homework. Why is forming a union such a big deal. I understand the benefits from the workers' point of view; what's the impediment(s) that this law(s) is trying to combat?

The rooster crows at MIDNITE. Ooooooooooh!

by THE Twank (paszeski__aaaaaaatttttt__yahoo.com) on Mon Sep 1st, 2008 at 01:03:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Labor Day news (4.00 / 5)

Numerous and legion.

When a group of employees get together to form a union in the US, the first thing they do is pass around membership cards the the other employees at the company/employing unit, and try to get people to sign on. If they can get a majority of the employees to sign the cards positively, then they can take the cards to the employer and demand an election.

You see, having the statement of intent is not enough. They then have to pass an election, again with 50% of the employees voting.

When is the election? The employer gets to determine that. There is a government body, the National Labor Relations Board, that exists to arbitrate such disputes, but one can imagine how impartial it is under Bush.

The election system is a huge problem, because the employer is free to bombard its workers with anti-union propaganda at all times of the day, whereas union supporters can only canvass during break times. Further, it's common practice for the union activists (and like any political activity, forming a union is usually driven by a few dedicated individuals giving shape to a mass of unformed discontent) to be harassed, transferred, reassigned, or fired for spurious reasons - whatever it takes to keep them from agitating for the union. Employers regularly will hold mandatory propaganda sessions to convince their employees of the evils of unions - meetings at which the pro-union forces cannot speak, but meetings which they nonetheless must attend.

After all this, there is the election. Various vote-suppression and vote-rigging techniques are quite common, as it is the employer who runs the election and counts the ballots.

Then, if the union wins, the employer can challenge the vote in a variety of ways, ultimately taking it to the NLRB. This process can take quite a while, time the employer still can use to oust the union activists.

Once the election victory has been certified, the union is properly established, and it's time for collective bargaining for a new employment contract. This begins when the employer decides it begins. It lasts as long as the employer decides it should last. Usually, it takes strikes to get a contract, even one that was no different from what was had beforehand. Because, unless the union can get a first contract that actually means something, it's still weak. If the union fails at this stage, it usually fails forever.

In case of a union victory, it then has the privelige of re-negotiating the contract every two or three years. While these are always opportunities for the union to improve the contract, they are also opportunities for the employer to crush the union - again, if the union can't get a contract, or discontent with the harassment brought on by union activities grows strong enough, it's always possible for the employer to push to de-certify the union, forcing another election, under the same terms as before.

by Zwackus on Mon Sep 1st, 2008 at 06:14:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Labor Day news (none / 0)

Absolutely shocking. I have been asked to diary union-employer partnership working (which has a good record in the UK) which I will do as soon as I have a free evening. Thanks for the detail you've given here.

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 04:21:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Labor Day news (none / 0)

Feel free to email me for more details. I still have friends in the labor movement in the US, professional organizers and whatnot, and would be happy to electronically introduce you if you'd like.

by Zwackus on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 06:33:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Labor Day news (none / 0)

Thanks, I may well do when I get to writing the diary.

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 06:54:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

European Item (4.00 / 4)

Artists Turn Industrial Fuel Into Works of Art | Culture & Lifestyle | Deutsche Welle | 01.09.2008

The industrial areas of Germany, France and Poland have all been fueled by one thing: coal. Now a group of international artists are using the fuel to spark dialogue.
The Hansa Coking Plant is just six kilometers (3.7 miles) north of the industrial German city of Dortmund. Shuttered for over 16 years, the site was once the country's largest coke producer.

In 1997 the site was taken over by the Foundation for the Preservation of Industrial Monuments. Today the buildings stand as they did at the height of production, only now the hulking machines are silent and coke no longer pours forth.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Sep 1st, 2008 at 10:55:49 AM EST

Re: European Item (none / 1)

Interesting, I have never heard of musical coal before.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Sep 1st, 2008 at 10:58:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: European Item (4.00 / 5)

Not far away is World Heritage Site Zeche Zollverein, a vast former coal mine complex now turned into one of the leading Kultur stations in Europe. It includes an innovative business community as well. (Clicking brings you to Englisch.)

Friends of mine run the technical stage at PACT Zollverein, the leading choreography workshop in Europe. The main stage seats only 350 max, but it's large enough for a La Scala production. Leading dance tours often begin here, as the same production which goes to Paris Opera House can work here.

As you can see from the photos, this building was where the miners changed and were taken down into the mines, and showered after each shift; many hundreds together. Now Pina Bausch dances there.

(Aside: i know my life has taken some weird turns, but this building houses the memories of one of the weirdest. Mischa Baryshnikov began his last tour ((with White Oak)) there, and i was added to the stage crew because of my relatively good Englisch. During the first rehearsal, i was asked to perform a choreographed set change with Mischa and the dancers. I wish there were photos of light-footed me onstage, clad in stangehand black, dancing the props away... with Baryshnikov!!!)

Skennah Kowa

by Crazy Horse on Mon Sep 1st, 2008 at 11:47:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: European Item (4.00 / 2)

Thanks for the links.

And I wish too, that there would have been pictures of your light-footed act. :-D I mean Baryshnikov.......wow!

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Sep 1st, 2008 at 11:50:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: European Item (4.00 / 4)

Fran, it was thrilling to watch such a great in his final "formal" performances. Two rehearsals and four evening shows.

Here's a helicopter tour of the site. Now all of the old coal mine buildings are filled with arts, culture orgs and innovative businesses.

Skennah Kowa

by Crazy Horse on Mon Sep 1st, 2008 at 12:27:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Monday Open Thread (4.00 / 5)

It's all about the news from the Gulf Coast here. Navy Son is home on leave. He was supposed to report to a tech school near Biloxi, MS tomorrow, but has been told to stand by on leave til further notice. It's a very mixed blessing. While we watch the tragedy unfolding in the Gulf, we get to enjoy the guilty pleasure of a few extra days of his company.

Somewhere in cyberspace, the ghost of de Chardin is smiling.

by budr on Mon Sep 1st, 2008 at 10:56:21 AM EST

A summary of events (4.00 / 11)

UK politics is almost interesting all of a sudden.

Brown gets advised that people are sick of his miserable face, so he disappears for a month.

Which gives Cameron, the opposition leader, the chance to grandstand in Tblisi as the champion of poor little Georgia. Which meant that David Milliband, supposedly as foreign Secretary, but actually as Pretender-to-the-Throne had to trump him by fetching up in the Ukraine and saying how he was the champion of poor little Ukraine.

Who could ever have suspected that so many prominent british politcians carried flames in their heart for oppressed people of Eastern europe of whom we previously knew little and cared less ?

Then Darling of the Treasury gives a candid interview (apparently he's not very good at these) wherein he enters Stage Left on fire and shouting "We're all doomed". People suspect this may not go down well in the markets where confidence is all, especially when The Gordo has been saying how the fundamentals of the British economy are sound and everything will be tickety-boo for hard-working families being lifted out of poverty (or something).

So The Gordo is in a pickle. He's got a major policy launch (re-launch ?) coming up to try to pretend that he's going to do anything different from the indecisive dithering Blairism that's upset everybody so far. Then he's got a party conference where I can guarantee you that the only topic of conversation will be who replaces him and when. And will be made highly entertaining by the jockeying and politicking of various factions, all of whom will publicly support The Gord in the glare of the cameras and privately be sticking voodoo pins in be-suited dolls by night.

And then...and then...there's the glenrothes by-election which will surely be another loss like glasgow East. No date yet but typically Brown will ensure that all of the disquiet will keep rumbling till Xmas at least.

If only there was anybody credible to replace him. They'll all be disasters cos clueless apparatchiks are all that NuLabs left them with.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Sep 1st, 2008 at 11:01:11 AM EST

El Gordo (none / 1)

Might be a better version - 'The Big One', the Spanish Christmas Lottery.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Sep 1st, 2008 at 11:39:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Bristol Palin (4.00 / 3)

NBC just confirmed that Bristol Palin, the daughter, is pregnant.

Let the circus begin.

I know Republican family values are a crock of shit, and maybe this could spark a conversation about the idiotic idea of abstinence-only education, but I really do wish the country would just leave this poor girl alone, just as I wish we could've had our small moment of outrage over John Edwards's stupidity in his decision to run, and then left the Edwards family alone. She's going to have more to deal with than someone her age should already.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Mon Sep 1st, 2008 at 12:15:21 PM EST

Other Campaign News (4.00 / 5)

Hillary is pissed:

ST. PAUL -- Advisers to Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton said on Sunday that Senator John McCain's selection of Gov. Sarah Palin of Alaska as his running mate would lead to a greater role for Mrs. Clinton as she campaigned this fall on behalf of her former rival, Senator Barack Obama.
Mrs. Clinton's friends said she was galled that Ms. Palin might try to capitalize on a movement that Mrs. Clinton, of New York, built among women in the primaries. And Democrats used strong words on Sunday to rebut the notion: Senator John Kerry of Massachusetts said that women would not be "seduced" by the Republican ticket, and Guy Cecil, the former political director of Mrs. Clinton's campaign, said it was "insulting" for Republicans to compare Ms. Palin to Mrs. Clinton.
Nevertheless, Clinton advisers said they expected that a bloc of her female supporters would give Mr. McCain a second look because of Ms. Palin, and that Mrs. Clinton was probably Mr. Obama's best weapon in response. But asked if the Palin pick would lead to a new political marriage between Mr. Obama and Mrs. Clinton, a senior Clinton adviser, Ann Lewis, said: "Not a political marriage. She is not on the ticket. Senator Obama chose Joe Biden as his running mate. Hillary will do what she can to help."
Mrs. Clinton's advisers said they expected that in light of the Palin selection, she would focus her efforts especially on working women -- middle- and working-class, married and single -- in swing states where she ran strong, like Michigan, Ohio and Pennsylvania.

The last thing the Republicans should've done is given Hillary and Bill a reason to come out swinging. They just gave it to them.

Welcome back, Hillary.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Mon Sep 1st, 2008 at 12:24:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Other Campaign News (none / 1)

Well, it was stupid Obama camp who offered up the female vote to McCain.

I say this without having read any blog commentary on the Joe Biden choice (yet), so I don't know how it went down in Orangeland and what strategies were analysed behind it. I thought Sebelius would have been the best choice from the offer.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Mon Sep 1st, 2008 at 01:07:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Other Campaign News (4.00 / 3)

He didn't offer up female voters. The group most inclined to approve of Palin were males. Females gave her overwhelmingly negative views, especially on the issues and the question of whether she was prepared for the presidency.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Mon Sep 1st, 2008 at 01:16:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Other Campaign News (4.00 / 3)

Biden, for the record, receives pretty high ratings, especially from women, and older women most of all.

Remember, Biden authored the Violence Against Women Act and killed the Robert Bork nomination to the Supreme Court (which might very well have saved Roe).

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Mon Sep 1st, 2008 at 01:21:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Other Campaign News (none / 1)

Believe it when I see it.

The rooster crows at MIDNITE. Ooooooooooh!

by THE Twank (paszeski__aaaaaaatttttt__yahoo.com) on Mon Sep 1st, 2008 at 01:10:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bristol Palin (none / 1)

What's the big ta-do about the pregnant daughter? Is McCain the father?

The rooster crows at MIDNITE. Ooooooooooh!

by THE Twank (paszeski__aaaaaaatttttt__yahoo.com) on Mon Sep 1st, 2008 at 01:08:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bristol Palin (4.00 / 2)

...adding...There are inevitably political implications to this. This is not going to play well with a big chunk of the fundamentalists, especially older ones. Obama may be black, and that might scare the old folks, but they're going to judge Palin as a mother for this.

The Dems had better stay the hell away from the kid. The most I want to hear out of Obama and Biden and our surrogates is a calm discussion of the failures of abstinence-only education in a few days.

The ultrafundies -- that is, the real fundies, not the ones who'll make excuses -- will come out and say that this is proof of why women should not work, which will obviously piss off working women at the GOP.

McCain's people say he knew. No chance in Hell I'll believe that. This is why you vet people. We all know the bad parts of Biden's past. McCain didn't know shit about Palin.

I'm 50/50 on whether or not she's still going to be in the race by the end of the week.

A certain portion of the fundie base is completely unprincipled and will make excuses for her on the issue of moral values. I think that chunk is a majority of the fundies, actually. But if he kicks her off the ticket, they'll be furious, and McCain will still have those other groups pissed. That might be what keeps Palin on the ticket.

Why should Obama bother selling judgment when McCain does it for him? Hell, save the donations and send them to the Gulf Coast. If they don't need'em down there, send'em to the other party committees. McCain is Obama's best surrogate at this point.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Mon Sep 1st, 2008 at 01:11:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bristol Palin (4.00 / 2)

I'm 50/50 on whether or not she's still going to be in the race by the end of the week.

Com'on, let's get serious here. Can you imagine the zoo that would ensue if he dumped Palin? No way, Jose. She'd have to be accused of murdering kittens or something.

The rooster crows at MIDNITE. Ooooooooooh!

by THE Twank (paszeski__aaaaaaatttttt__yahoo.com) on Mon Sep 1st, 2008 at 01:22:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bristol Palin (none / 1)

Oh, I don't think you're appreciating how potentially bad this is for McCain. Now that Gustav has shot his wad, this will be a big story. Like I said, especially among older folks, this could be incredibly damaging to McCain and Palin.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Mon Sep 1st, 2008 at 01:28:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bristol Palin (none / 0)

Once again, what's the big deal on the pregnancy? Is she 11 years old or something?

The rooster crows at MIDNITE. Ooooooooooh!

by THE Twank (paszeski__aaaaaaatttttt__yahoo.com) on Mon Sep 1st, 2008 at 01:35:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bristol Palin (none / 1)

Turn it around. Imagine the Winger feeding frenzy if one of Obama's kids was unwed and preggers.

Och nu den svenska kocken bakar en Alaskan älg jägare. Bonk! Bonk! Bonk!

by ATinNM on Mon Sep 1st, 2008 at 01:46:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bristol Palin (none / 1)

Oh well, shit, of course. I mean, this unwed mother stuff is what "those black folk" is all about but this is good, white religious people. Maybe an immaculate conception; GOD HAS SENT US A MESSAGE !!

The rooster crows at MIDNITE. Ooooooooooh!

by THE Twank (paszeski__aaaaaaatttttt__yahoo.com) on Mon Sep 1st, 2008 at 01:51:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bristol Palin (4.00 / 3)

Does this mean because the wingers would do it, we have to do it too.

Sorry people, but isn't this girl already enough punished, without becoming the laughing stock of the entire world.

I really feel sorry for her, she is the victim in the end, not the parents. She is being sacrifieced on the altar of politics - probably without having any choice. Sorry this kind of discussion leaves a really bad taste with me.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Sep 1st, 2008 at 01:57:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bristol Palin (4.00 / 2)

I absolutely believe the kid should be left alone. But the parents should not, because there's an issue of policy staring us right in the face here. And it is not a small issue.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Mon Sep 1st, 2008 at 02:02:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bristol Palin (4.00 / 2)

I think Palin offers enough material to go after, without having to use the daughter, who's live is already difficult enough.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Sep 1st, 2008 at 02:04:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bristol Palin (4.00 / 2)

The daughter needs to be pushed aside to have a serious discussion about how we deal with kids and sex. That this is now hanging over the McCain campaign is not unimportant or irrelevant, because these people have tried to force a lack of education for teenagers down our throats as part of their effort to impose a theocracy. It's not unreasonable to point out that Palin is obviously out to lunch.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Mon Sep 1st, 2008 at 02:08:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bristol Palin (3.00 / 2)

Sorry mother. (Hanging my head. No smile.)

The rooster crows at MIDNITE. Ooooooooooh!

by THE Twank (paszeski__aaaaaaatttttt__yahoo.com) on Mon Sep 1st, 2008 at 02:03:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bristol Palin (4.00 / 6)

I agree that anybody with any compassion would try to avoid making a direct comment about Bristol Palin. some of the conversation here and at dKos is already flirting with the issue somebody noted yesterday

I think where Palin will help McCain with women is to give GOP women a reason to vote for the ticket (women generally have been unhappier with Bush than men). But more than that it gives the Dems one more chance to show off that sexist strain of fauxgressivism that we all enjoyed so much during the primary. All ready there are sexist comments being made left and right by Democratic operatives, bloggers and commenters. I don't think it will drive Democratic women to vote for McCain, but it could make it harder to vote for Obama. Not that I'm not going to love watching comments at Kos that say things like Palin's nomination shows that McCain wants to screw our "cuntry" (which at one point had 80+ positive ratings so it's not some lone troll) or all the jokes on the word "mate" or having Palin, who has every bit as impressive a life story as Obama even if she is wrong on everything, reduced to being a beauty queen.
A brilliant pick not because she's going to win over all those Hillary voters but because she gives the Dems an opportunity to remind women that not everyone who hates us has a (R) after their name.

But then again, you have to note that it would be a wonderful world if unmarried mothers weren't stigmatized in the first place. and that young teenagers were properly educated into how to avoid getting pregnant so that they are able to achieve adulthood and consider where they want their lives to go without already having the decision made for them in a moment of fumbling ignorance a few years previously.

Bristol Palin is facing these situations, not because of the failings of liberals but because of the vicious, dogmatic and ignorant prejudices of people like her very own mother. A situation she wishes to befall thousands of other women if she gets the chance to wreak havoc on contraceptive and abortion services across america. Bristol Palin should vanish from the airwaves immdeiately, but her mother should not be allowed to draw a "Cone of Silence" over the consequences for american women that will arise from her attitudes.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Sep 1st, 2008 at 02:14:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bristol Palin (4.00 / 4)

That's the real point: Bristol Palin and potentially thousands upon thousands of other girls are the victims of ignorance peddled by the likes of Sarah Palin. That's expressing it too harshly for a political campaign, but that is the fundamental issue.

We're right about sex ed. They're wrong. We're trying to protect kids. They're killing them and ruining their lives with religious bullshit. Period.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Mon Sep 1st, 2008 at 02:20:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bristol Palin (4.00 / 4)

Yes, but you can adress many of these things without needing the daughters drama.

You can go after the mother for being pro-life. I mean she has this fifth child that has down's syndrom. She CHOSE to keep it, this means she had a CHOICE because of the liberal abortion laws.

Attack her on family values. She again CHOSE to have this child with special needs. She knew it would have special needs and she CHOSE to have it anyway. But what is she doing. Instead of giving this baby with special needs the loving and caring presence of a mother, she prefers to pursue a career, now even as VP which will be very time consuming. So where is this baby with special needs right now? Who is taking care of it? Is she a lousy mother? And remember she had a CHOICE!!!

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Sep 1st, 2008 at 02:29:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bristol Palin (none / 1)

So, the fact that she is a hero, because she chose to have the baby, despite she could have aborted it by law, is something you want to attack her on? The fact that she is perhaps the only non-hypocrat in the republican establishment is your attack line???

By the way - this is not specifically to Fran, but for quite a number of comments in this thread - I think there are lots of insults in the comments. I don't know how anybody here can complain about fox news, with such assholism as displayed by many of your comments. Decency is not exactly the strength of the internet. But I start to understand actually, why so many republicans seem to lack empathy - the democrats killed it.

Lich King/Caribou Barbie 08
Pain brings Katharsis

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Mon Sep 1st, 2008 at 02:46:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bristol Palin (4.00 / 2)

No the focus is on Choice - she had a choice - she is not a hero, but she had the FREEDOM TO CHOOSE.

A right the fundies want to take away from women, but she had it! this has nothing to do with being a hero.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Sep 1st, 2008 at 02:49:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bristol Palin (4.00 / 3)

You know I am old enough to remember how it was, when abortions were illegal or only for the very rich. There was a lot of suffering - and Palin profited from the women fighting for the right to choose and not having to go for illegal and often damaging if not deadly procedures.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Sep 1st, 2008 at 02:51:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bristol Palin (none / 1)

How has she profited?

And your insistence, that she chose to have a babay with Down syndrome can easily be interpreted as seeing people with a handicap as less live worthy than healthy ones.

Lich King/Caribou Barbie 08
Pain brings Katharsis

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Mon Sep 1st, 2008 at 03:12:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bristol Palin (none / 1)

Yes, 'fundies' like me want to take this right away from her.
Interstingly, that's a position, which in Germany is hold by the constitutional court, namely that abortion is against the law, is a fundamentalist postion in your book. That is part of what I'm talking about. That being 'pro-life' is already enough to be counted as fundamentalist, instead of just a different opinion on an important issue.

Lich King/Caribou Barbie 08
Pain brings Katharsis

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Mon Sep 1st, 2008 at 03:10:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bristol Palin (4.00 / 8)

You know Martin, being pro-choice does not mean forcing anyone to have an abortion. Reality is, there will be abortions, whatever the law is. it always has been that way and my guess is, it will stay that way. Even with contraception, which are not a 100% effective, there are pregnancies. Do we want to go back to the time where women in desparet sitations are going back to have back room abortion, which are medically unsafe.

I am personally against abortion if possible, but it is not onto me to decide for others and thus I believe that there should be a choice without criminalisation of the women. because in the end it is primarily the women who suffer in most cases, not the men.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Sep 1st, 2008 at 03:18:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bristol Palin (none / 1)

Reality is, there will be abortions, whatever the law is. it always has been that way and my guess is, it will stay that way.
There will always be more severe crimes, too. This isn't a reason to accept it, simply you can't prevent it completely. The question is, if some effect is possible, and even if just the spreading the idea, that abortion is not good, would nowadays be a success. While nobody is forcing somebody to do an abortion, there is put quite some pressure from e.g. parents or peers on women to abort, if they are in a difficult situation. Quite a few women suffer mentaly from an abortion, into which they were talked.

without criminalisation of the women
One doesn't have to criminalise women, but physicians, who do abortions, or people dealing with medical drugs.

I know I can't convince you or anybody else already so strongly decided 'pro-choice'. But my comment was about the treatment of people who are 'pro-live'. Ruling about abortion is in any case ruling about very high valued rights. Is there really not a big difference in being 'pro-live' and being 'pro-war' or 'pro-torture' or against universal health care or 'pro-destruction of the planet'? If you read this thread and through ET, it seems like it.

For that matter, the treatment of creationists on ET is as well a bit hyped - and I say this as somebody living from the curiosity of people for the early universe.

Lich King/Caribou Barbie 08
Pain brings Katharsis

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Mon Sep 1st, 2008 at 04:18:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Huh? (none / 1)

Choice is not a crime! It's a responsible decision.

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. --Charu Saxena.

by metavision on Mon Sep 1st, 2008 at 04:32:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bristol Palin (none / 1)

there's pressure both ways, there's mental repercussions both ways. The women I've known who have had abortions had no regrets. For an interesting stat - in the university where I did my undergrad degree there had not been a single student who gave birth to a child for over a dozen years at the time I was there. This in a fifty percent female university with plenty of sexual activity and all the recklessness of horny young adults on their own for the first time.

If I were this child's parent I'd have encouraged her to have an abortion while simultaneously trying to make sure she understood that if she chose to keep it, she'd get my full support. That's presumably the sort of pressure you're talking about. But what are parents, friends, etc. supposed to do - refuse to talk about it, offer no advice?

by MarekNYC on Mon Sep 1st, 2008 at 04:34:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bristol Palin (none / 1)

I appreciate that you would have promised full support as a parent, but this unfortunately is not always the case.

I don't think the pressure is equally on both sides. Maybe in Poland it is that way, maybe in the US, but in Germany I'm pretty sure it isn't. And of course it depends on the milieu. In the small catholic village, things are different than in the city.

Lich King/Caribou Barbie 08
Pain brings Katharsis

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Mon Sep 1st, 2008 at 04:58:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bristol Palin (none / 0)

Yes, the city's anonymity is liberating.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 05:14:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bristol Palin (4.00 / 5)

Your comment is about the treatment of people who are pro-life? The ones who are trying to remove the choice of what happens to a woman's own body from her? The same ones who treat people who are pro-choice appallingly at times?

I utterly defend a woman's right to choose what happens to her own body. This is not equivalent to recklessly having abortions as though it doesn't matter, nor is it forcing abortions on anybody. In my eyes it is a breach of my human rights to take that choice away from me.

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Mon Sep 1st, 2008 at 05:11:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bristol Palin (4.00 / 4)

Using the wording "pro-life" is fundamentalism. It's such a weasel word, implying that any other position is against life, and therefore absurd.

Say you are against choice and want to impose the unwanted pregnancy. There are even some arguments for it. But that has nothing to do with being "pro-life".

"The womb that spawned that thing is fertile yet"

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 04:43:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bristol Palin (none / 0)

I haven't invented the term "pro-live". I have taken it from other ET discussions, where most people are "pro-choice". In German of course I say, I'm against the right to abort - and the other people say, they are for the right to abort. It is not my fault, that so many here use this token expressions, but why shouldn't I use them then, too.

Lich King/Caribou Barbie 08
Pain brings Katharsis

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 08:01:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bristol Palin (4.00 / 3)

"Pro-life" originates in the US debates about abortion, as a way of framing. It is used here because it has become common in the English language...

Pro-life vs. pro-choice are the two frames of the US debate.

By saying you're anti-choice you're adopting the opposition's frame. But people here are reacting to pro-life by saying they won't debate in that frame.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 08:04:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

As Helen said (none / 1)

We are all (mostly) pro-life - nobody I know is happy about abortion. It is a practical solution, not a moral solution. And the medical and mental condition of the mother is paramount. I think most of us at ET would agree.

Where we might disagree, is in our attitudes to human-caused death, whether it's eating meat, putting down unwanted or suffering pets, or going to war in defence. Not to mention all the ways of dying on the road, at work etc in accidents - especially if they are caused by negligence.

Regarding Palin, I find it hard to accept pro-life and hunting as a combination, especially when pro-life is promoted as having religious origins. All god's creatures etc....

I find all sorts of conflicts in my own behaviour: I'll swat a mosquito, a wasp or a moth, but gingerly rescue any bee or butterfly that wanders in to my house. I still eat meat - even having filmed in abattoirs. I have never hunted, but I know countryside Finns who do and I respect their choice, though I don't agree with it. Hunting is strictly controlled in Finland - moose for instance are 'culled' ie in the hunting season permits are issued up to a certain number nationwide.

Death brings out the complicated moral skeins of all our lives.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 08:26:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: As Helen said (4.00 / 2)

I'm happy about abortion. I don't consider aborting a tragic decision, or whatever else people like to call it. It's availability is a crucial, great, happy, wonderful tool of female control of their own fates. Sure, it is better when contraception is used and works properly and you don't need the inconvenience of a medical intervention. Abortion is to contraception like a getting a filling is to brushing your teeth. It's much nicer to keep up with good dental hygiene and not have your teeth drilled, but if it happens, it is hardly a disaster, and not a difficult dilema over which you agonize. So, abortion is like dental work, which I don't enjoy getting, but am sure glad exist if I should need it.

And for the foetus, and 'life': The removal from the human body of a small cluster of cells that would otherwise parasitically suckle life from that body for 9 months before it ruptures alien-like form the female nether-regions is hardly tragic, or problematic, or difficult, or anything else. I don't cry when my body on a monthly basis expels the unfertilized ovum along with the uterine wall. Why would I feel much different about a fertilized lump of cells, or a fish-like thing with gills swimming in amniotic fluid being removed? It is not a person. It does not have a developed sense of self, and no stake in its own life. And it most certainly has no right to claim my body for its nurishment.

by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 08:47:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: As Helen said (none / 1)

Now I do know someone.

As I said - the physical and mental health of the women is paramount. It is your body - you do what you like with it. Same for me - as long as it doesn't impact on the health of someone else.

Thanks for sharing your view. I cannot share what it is like to be a woman, but your view makes sense to me.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 08:58:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bristol Palin (4.00 / 3)

This diary discusses the framing of the abortion debate. It's not that 'your' choice of phrase is being criticised but the 'right's' narrative - the use of 'pro-life' to define their stance is a clever one because it implictly assumes that somebody who is not pro-life is therefore pro-death.

When I call myself pro-choice, it means pro-choice, not pro-abortion.

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 08:13:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bristol Palin (4.00 / 2)

"The treatment of creationists is a bit hyped"? Do explain.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 04:50:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bristol Palin (none / 1)

For that matter, the treatment of creationists on ET is as well a bit hyped - and I say this as somebody living from the curiosity of people for the early universe.

The treatment of creationists on ET is mild and mellow. And the treatment of creationists in general is incomparably nice, above-board, honest and honourable compared to the way creationists treat honest, hard-working scientists.

If you want an example, you can start with the result of a five-second Google search.

The fact that creationists are routinely ridiculed and showered with contempt is a result of their insistence on shoving their early-19th-century theology down everybody's throat. I think that you'll find that most here (and elsewhere) fully support the right of consenting adult creationists to engage, in the privacy of their homes and churches, in whatever intellectual and religious practises they desire.

But attempting to teach patent bullshit to other people's children and then filing baseless lawsuits in order to get special treatment and/or harass political opponents tends to get under said political opponents' skins. Rather quickly.

- Jake

Ceterum censeo Chicago esse delendam

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 03:39:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bristol Palin (4.00 / 6)

I don't know much about your sentiments here, so nothing I say is aimed at you personally, but is intended as a wider comment about much of the so-called "pro-life" stance.

Yes, it generally is associated with a fundamentalist religious views. This is because in the USA it is almost entirely associated with a fundamentalist religious view. We might argue that John McCain, who is 100% against abortion and contraception, is not a fundamentalist religionist, but even tho' that makes him an exception amongst "pro-lifers", he's certainly a strong believer in some form of christianity.

Now, I personally don't like to call them "pro-lifers", which is why I put them in quotes, because coupled with a strong belief in the sanctity of life before birth is a strangely callous indifference to life after birth. Most of them are also militarists who are strongly in favour of capital punishment and the ownership of guns. Not exactly pro-life in many of the senses I understand the term. If these religionists were strongly in favour of Jesus' actual message in the gospels I might give them more credence, but fundamentalism seems to edit compassion and forgiveness out and stick to the Old Testament vengeance and wrath.

Then we have the problem that nobody is actually pro-abortion. Not really. It's a ghastly procedure with genuine risks to the health and future reproductive well-being of the mother. Nobody in their right mind is pro-abortion. I'll repeat that : Nobody in their right mind is pro-abortion. Abortion is a failure of education and health care.

All children, once they get anywhere near being interested in sex (which in the UK can be as young as 8 !!) should be educated into what sex is about. Not just having sex, but what it's for, how a loving relationship occurs and why. And especially why they shouldn't venture into one too early. And yes, they should be taught about condoms and contraception and the day-after emergency contraception (which is NOT an abortificant). It is notable that in countries where sex education is comprehensive, open and honest, they have the lowest incidences of teenage preganncies. It's countries like the UK and the US which remain totally messed up about sex where it remains problematically high.

And finally, when fundamentalists are against contraception as well, then we are entering into the freedom of choice for women about how they live their lives. It comes down to whether or not we feel women should be treated as living incubators with the "on/off" switch located in the state legislature. Anti-choicers are all about humanizing embryos, but somehow, they have no problem dehumanizing women in the process. If women are free to act in this world, then they must have a choice about being pregnant beyond not having sex. Unless of course they're willing to hold men to the same account. Not likely judging by the number of scandals we hear about. And so when they feel that sexual maturity for women equals their enslavement to motherhood, then they're saying they have a problem with women that's way bigger than we can deal with here.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Sep 1st, 2008 at 03:40:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bristol Palin (4.00 / 3)

I've actually met devout Catholics who are strongly 'pro-life' but otherwise 'left' - anti capital punishment, for progressive socio-economic policies, anti-war, etc. They're not all that rare.

by MarekNYC on Mon Sep 1st, 2008 at 03:48:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bristol Palin (4.00 / 2)

And then there's this big gap where when it comes to women they're down with the authoritarian control. Being kinda good, but then again, not giving a rats about the well-being of 50% of humanity seems a bit lacking in the honesty department.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Sep 1st, 2008 at 03:55:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bristol Palin (4.00 / 7)

That's the Big Lie about pro-life. Some people are pro-life because they're squeamish about abortion. Others are 'pro-life' because - as I said in a different post - they're more interested in controlling women.

It's pure Darwinism - wanting to make sure that you have as many off-spring as possible.

A pro-choice culture limits abortion naturally. When it's one choice among others, it's going to be one of the less popular options. While I disagree with Helen because some women do make a point of being casual about abortion they're not in a majority.

A pro-life culture increases the risk to everyone. Without choice, you're stuck with a child you may not want, may not be equipped to parent maturely, and may even have been forced into.

This is great news if you're a man, because you can be sure that women will carry your offspring to term and most likely be mother afterwards.

But the end result of a culture with those values is brood-slavery for women, and insitutionalised sexual abuse. A fundamentalist cult was raided a few months ago, and that's exactly the life style they'd created for themselves.

Specific pro-lifers may be appalled by that possibility, but even so - that's the direction their view pushes the Overton window.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Sep 1st, 2008 at 04:19:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bristol Palin (4.00 / 4)

It's an insoluble dispute. Frankly, I'm surprised it isn't causing nastier repercussions in various societies. If you genuinely believe a fetus is a human being we're talking about first degree murder for hire on a massive scale. If you don't, banning abortion is akin to a rather extreme state sponsored rape on a massive scale. I think the saving grace here is that the largest group is basically in a mushy middle - they don't see fetuses as human beings, but they also don't quite see them as just a collection of cells in a woman's body.

by MarekNYC on Mon Sep 1st, 2008 at 03:55:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Pro-Choice (none / 1)

is Pro-Human Rights, Women Included, so 'just a different opinion´ coming from the male side who will never have to choose and with no other insight available, is anti-human rights.

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. --Charu Saxena.

by metavision on Mon Sep 1st, 2008 at 04:25:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pro-Choice (none / 1)

I think it is very disingenious to forbid somebody an opinion just because he is male. But for the matter:
I'm sure I know of more women, thet are pro-live than men.
In the catholic students group in Karlsruhe, where quite some are cliche greens, with respect to most other aspects of live, including of course critisising the church for not letting women be priests and for discrimination of homosexuals, the pro-live stance seemed to me still dominating (with ~50% women).
Of course my more active and selfdetermined grandmother, my mother, the girlfriend of my brother are all pro-live. All were at university. Both my mother and my brother's girlfriend working.

So I'm not allowed to share the opinion of these women?

Lich King/Caribou Barbie 08
Pain brings Katharsis

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Mon Sep 1st, 2008 at 04:41:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pro-Choice (4.00 / 5)

i hear you martin.

one of my first and only diaries on dkos, years ago, was about this terrible issue.

it was maryscott who slapped me into understanding better.

the problem is that both positions are morally untenable, in the real world, and one must open one's eyes to the company extremists on both sides keep, to help see the bigger picture.

to start with, it is obscene how mens' sexual education is so poor, since we are much more responsible for creating 'unwanted' babies than women are, since mens' sexuality is more persuasive, invasive and with less regard for the longterm consequences than womens' is..

so it is equally obscene that men should rule in laws that convict women to choicelessness, unless there was some other alternative, some utopian solution that would guarantee a baby born to parents too young, unsupported, and inexperienced to be good at it.

and there isn't....reality check!

it is the sick shame projected together with a judgmental moralism that creates the cognitive dissonance, that then creates naive, undereducated kids, who act out.

so until we create a much better world for all of us, but especially children, i have decided it behooves us men to remain in humble silence as to what we think women should do with their bodies, even if it's our sperm that ìs co-creating the situation.

sex and desire are never going to conveniently wait to arrive only to adults truly conscious, generous and psychologically mature enough to handle raising children in today's worrying world.

society is so atomised by industrialism that instead of a matter for tribal celebration when young adults, as it was for millennia, conceived, now we throw up our hands in horror, clutch our pearls, when this happens, unless the parents have 'good jobs' etc, which increasingly is happening to folks in their mid thirties.

biologically the hormonal system is never so active as at the age of 14-15. we have created a world where young adults are looking at waiting another 15 years of work, waiting, abstinence and/or condoms before their elders clap their hands and smile on the happy couple.

it is reminiscent of the surreal cognitive gap in america between drinking age and the supposed 'maturity' needed to join the armed forces and kill people to order...is it surprising people go nuts with this kind of hypocritical bullshit from those entrusted with preparing them for the world?

there is no good answer politically for the abortion issue, just crap or crappier.

when every child really is welcome, and will be raised by a whole 'village', replete with loving understanding, then we won't even need to discuss this unsolvable problem.

till then, we men who are mortified by the act of abortion should be even more mortified by the context women must live in, pregnant or not, that is created by men, who have resisted any female emancipation historically, then i just feel it's arrogant for men to push their beliefs about this issue into the political arena.

especially as if we controlled ourselves better, women wouldn't have this problem!

sorry for the semi-coherent ramble... logically you are right, but the world is not so linear.

Peace is not the absence of war -- peace is the absence of fear. Ursula Franklin

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Mon Sep 1st, 2008 at 06:07:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pro-Choice (none / 1)

dear melo,
I'm afraid I have to comment on quite some points. Scanning over your diary titles, unfortunately I couldn't identify the one you are talking about.

I'm not aware about the quality of men's sexual education, especially at the lower educational end, which probably is most relevant. However, I can't accept the collectivism, to say men are "more persuasive, invasive and with less regard for the longterm consequences than womens' is.". Yes, in average they are, but with wide variations. So, if sexual behaviour is at the core of the argument, there is no reason, not to look on the credibility of each one's individual's live.

the facts speak for themselves, for the moral high ground one gains from taking a pure, anti-abortion position, one allies oneself with the baddest authoritarian, warmongering, religiously ignorant, bossy, nosy sons of bitches who ever got too big for their historical boots.
I don't understand completely to what you hint? The NAZIs, who by the way had an euthanasia program, which today sometimes is cited, when our special responsibility for disabled (e.g. not abort them) is called, were the first to implement major environmental protection laws in Germany. Does this make todays environmentalists to fascists?
Or are you talking about the Republicans of today? Then, to distance oneself from them, there are about a thousand issues, why using one of the less evil ones, to go into a political discussion, which necessarily ends up little nuanced, but completely polemic? If you talking about the GOP, as if I would have argued, it would be reasonable to vote them, just because they are right on this one issue, while they are wrong on all others. Obama by the way gets it, and has announced he would fire anybody in his campaign speculating about Sarah Palin's family live - the way ThatBritGuy, Metatone, and gk are doing.

by reluctantly conceding one's own rational loathing of abortion, or on a deeper level, the grief that a society can be so uptight and in denial about sex, that they do not educate their kids intelligently about this trickiest of areas, and their kids act out accordingly, one is allied with those who are actually doing something to create a greener, more intelligent world, where sex will be treated with the respect it deserves, with full disclosure of the facts of life as early as a child seeks to know about them.
How is the society in denial about sex? I think (in Germany) there was never a better informed youth than today. If education is bad, wouldn't that be the thing to change?
And does one have to buy everything what is considered by this group do-gooders? Don't you realise, that you are advocating totalitarism, when you either have to buy the full package, or you are part of the evil crowd, which can't be taken seriously at all? I have always said, I'm conservative, because the democratic acceptable and respectable political views are left of mine. If you are a democrat (not in the party sense, but in the sense of rule of the people), I think you have to accept some other opinions.

it is the sick shame projected together with a judgmental moralism that creates the cognitive dissonance, that then creates naive, undereducated kids, who act out.
As I said before, I'm 'created' by pro-live parents. I was the best in my 100 people high school age-group at the only private school in my hometown, and one of the fasted getting my physics diploma at one of the most respected universities in Germany.
My impression, as well from having watched a few times afternoon talkshows, is, that being pro-choicers are much more irresponsible than pro-livers, who actually know, that their actions have consequences.

Then you are talking about reality. This reality is made by people, who reality that way. Somebody had a sign like we matter more then pens and pounds. Yes, it seems the reality is often, that pens and pounds matter more. But that is a decision, done by humans, and humans could change it, if they would want to.

Then you are talking about historical load, men discriminating women. Your argument is simply rubbish. I have as many female as male ancients. How does it make boys a culprit and girls a victim, when their father is misbehaving towards their mother? Your argument is not just flawed, it is really really bad! With such arguments today, the extreme discrimination against boys in school is justified.

My selfcontrol is fine, I'm virgin. And if men shouldn't be in the discussion, men shouldn't be in the discussion. My original comment was about mistreating Sarah Palin. If men should not be in the discussion, to place the comment as a response to Fran's was wrong, but I guess some of the comments, I did target with my response do come from males.
So please take one of the 100 000 other issues, you could take to attack her, but stop using her family live for that. It might even be counterproductive, because people might vote for her in defiance of the mistreatment (which probably is one reason for the reaction of Obama). Even as no GOP voter will read this site, it is a matter of decency (which I'm confident, that it is as well a reason for Obama's reaction).

Lich King/Caribou Barbie 08
Pain brings Katharsis

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Mon Sep 1st, 2008 at 08:15:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pro-Choice (4.00 / 3)

Martin, I agree with you that men have a right to say what they think about this issue (obviously, since I've been doing just that). However, if your surprised at the hostility, please remember what I wrote earlier about how from a pro-choice perspective forcing women to carry their pregnancies to term is the equivalent of a rather gruesome rape.

In general the one thing I sometimes disagree with certain feminists on is that men don't get a say on abortion on a personal level. It's a major life decision that affects both people in a relationship and it seems to be natural to me that the man would have an opinion. If I were to find out that a serious girlfriend had had an abortion without talking about it with me, I'd be extremely upset - far more so than, say, at a bit of casual cheating. On the other hand, in the end it's the woman's decision, in the same way that a decision to take a job in another location or for radically different hours or pay is. That would impact me, but I don't get a veto. This isn't 'fair', but it's also not 'fair' that women are the ones who have to go through pregnancy.

As for what you say about pro-life vs. pro-choice people - ummh... My college and grad school experiences have been in environments which are both quite competitive and overwhelmingly pro-choice (at least ninety percent). I've definitely not observed that.

I also think you are confusing the life choices of many pro-choice people with a desire to impose them on others. But actually we don't want to force people to have abortions any more than we want to force them to go through with pregnancies - it's up to you. Same goes for sexual choices - those are up to you. All we want is to be able to make our own decisions on all such matters without government coercion.

by MarekNYC on Mon Sep 1st, 2008 at 10:37:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pro-Choice (4.00 / 6)

Martin:

As I said before, I'm 'created' by pro-live parents. I was the best in my 100 people high school age-group at the only private school in my hometown, and one of the fasted getting my physics diploma at one of the most respected universities in Germany.
My impression, as well from having watched a few times afternoon talkshows, is, that being pro-choicers are much more irresponsible than pro-livers, who actually know, that their actions have consequences.

Your physics may be exceptional, but perhaps a little more logic could be useful in that argument.

There is - in most of the world - zero correlation between being pro- or anti-choice and academic ability.

As for the rest - statistics don't agree with your impression.

In fact this is exactly why we're having this argument. Fundies in the US lead far less moral lives, by the their own standards, than liberals do. Fundies are more likely to be in prison, more likely to have substance abuse issues, more likely to commit sex crimes and generally less likely to behave like rational adults - especially not rational adults with an understanding of consequences.

In fact this is the one of the keystones of the progressive movement - to educate conservatives about consequences.

Specifically it's to educate conservatives about the despicable social fallout of abstinence programs, of the disastrous consequences of militarism, of the carnage created by a culture of ownership without responsibility, and above all of the consequences of pretending that personal actions based on 'because I say so' or 'because an authority figure said so' don't work nearly as well for anyone as personal actions based on rational forethought and empathy.

If Sarah Palin is in the middle of the crossfire, it's because everything in her life dramatises these issues. And the last thing anyone wants - and by anyone I mean conservatives and progressives equally - is someone in charge of the biggest war machine in history who doesn't understand how to assess consequences realistically.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Sep 1st, 2008 at 10:46:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pro-Choice (none / 0)

You conflate American statistics and my purely German experience.
Melo said, that creates the cognitive dissonance, that then creates naive, undereducated kids, who act out.

If being pro-live would be the source for that, it should apply in every society. But the reality is the other way around. Dumb people follow some form of explicit or implicit authority, and in the US it happens to be, that this authorities, which are used to replace own thinking, are pro-live.

And I would be perfectly happy with an non-interventionist not understanding how to assess consequences person in charge of the biggest war machine in history, while some warmonger, who understands how to assess consequences, but doesn't care about human lives in general, would be really troubling. Actually I doubt the assessment of the consequences of a significant military action is seriously possible.

If you need to use Palin's personal family story, in which I can't see anything bad, to portray Palin's incompetence as president, then you haven't much. Luckily Obama is better than that. Actually his attitude has impressed me so much in the last days, that I have a new signiture:

Lich King/Caribou Barbie 08
Pain brings Katharsis

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 08:14:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pro-Choice (4.00 / 2)

use Palin's personal family story, in which I can't see anything bad, to portray Palin's incompetence as president

You don't get it, do you? It's all about Abstinence-Only Sex Education which the US has been pushing on the rest of the world.

In 2004, U.S. President George W. Bush announced his Five-Year Global HIV/AIDS Strategy. Also known as The President's Emergency Plan for AIDS Relief (PEPFAR), the plan committed the U.S. to provide $15 billion over five years towards AIDS relief in 15 countries in Africa and the Caribbean, and in Vietnam. About 20 percent of the funding, or $3 billion over five years, was allocated for prevention. The program required that, starting in fiscal year 2006, one-third of prevention funding be earmarked specifically for abstinence-only-until-marriage programs. Global AIDS prevention advocates have criticized the funding restriction, and in 2006 a report by the U.S. Government Accountability Office (GAO) also criticized the earmark, outlined the challenges that the funding restriction posed to countries hardest hit by the AIDS epidemic, and urged Congress to reconsider how this funding should be spent. A Congressionally authorized three-year evaluation of PEPFAR by the non-partisan Institute of Medicine in 2007 also criticized the earmark. In preparation for PEPFAR's reauthorization, bills have been introduced in both houses of Congress that would drop the earmark

As a Conservative, Catholic German do you agree that Abstinence-Only is the best Sex Education?

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 08:23:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pro-Choice (none / 0)

I'm not fully sure what Abstinence-Only, really means as sex education. Seems to me not very, uhmm, educated.

However, Palin's daughter hasn't HIV, she has a baby. What the hell is wrong with that? Babys are good. Planned or unplanned, a baby is always good.
You can bring up the inefficiency of Abstinence-Only education to fight AIDS, you can ridicule the American obsession with sex references and education any time. But it is not decent, to do that with using existing babys.
You imply that this baby is a problem. It isn't. It's just a baby.

Lich King/Caribou Barbie 08
Pain brings Katharsis

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 08:59:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pro-Choice (4.00 / 2)

I'm not fully sure what Abstinence-Only, really means as sex education. Seems to me not very, uhmm, educated.
However, Palin's daughter hasn't HIV, she has a baby. What the hell is wrong with that? Babys are good. Planned or unplanned, a baby is always good.

Supposedly Abstinence-Only sex education is the way to prevent unwanted teenage pregnancies without resort to contraception. Unwanted teenage pregnacies being a likely cause of abortion, which is also to be prevented.

Or so the theory goes.

The Palins provide a p