European Tribune

Tuesday Open Thread

by Fran
Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 10:15:55 AM EST

The Thread is Open.... have fun!


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BBC NEWS | Europe | Grappling with a Roma identity

It was just a passing remark, the first time I heard Arpad Bogdan talk about the Roma father who had left him in an orphanage, and wonder if he should try to find him.

We were drinking late at night in a semi-derelict house in a Budapest side street. We had skipped over bicycles and rubbish to make our way inside. I should say this was not a doss house but a trendy Urban Minimalism club.

"He doesn't have to tell you this you know," whispered our mutual friend, director Antonia Meszaros. And it was then that I realised how conflicted Arpad is - how much of a dilemma his Roma inheritance has created.

Arpad is a much-garlanded young film director, whose feature film Happy New Life has won many awards. It is about a young Roma man's unbearable childhood in an orphanage. In the end, he can't hack it - unlike Arpad who emerged from his own orphanage into the University of Pecs and a promising film career.

"My film," Arpad says, "is about the dilemmas of someone who realises that in order to face the future, he must come to terms with his past - and that's something that I still have to do in my own life."

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 10:16:45 AM EST
Beppe Grillo's Blog

Today's news is that the Alitalia operation is a great success for the government. Who said that? The President of the Council, Silvio Berlusconi who is praising himself to bits all on his own. Even because from the experts he has just received raspberries and criticism, not to mention the press and all the international operations that measure things according to the free market and not according to the despotic little Italy that is coming back together with the regurgitated bits of fascism that have been rightly denounced by Famiglia Cristiana. It's not easy to understand what he is celebrating, this gentleman, given that in the last 15 years he has been President of the Council for about 7 of them, that is half: in these 15 years, Alitalia has lost 15 billion euro of our money, thus half of the money lost is his fault, of his governments, and the other half is the fault of the Centre-Left governments, because politics has always kept its hands on Alitalia and as we shall see, it will continue to keep them there even after having made it collapse innumerable times.
Prodi and Padoa Schioppa, one of the few good things done by the Centre Left government, had found the arrangement, they managed to convince AirFrance to take the whole thing. That would have meant no bankruptcy, no need to rely on the Marzano law on loss-making companies, the creation of a very big European group including AirFrance, KLM and Alitalia that could have been of a decent size for the international markets where, by now, the airlines are big, in consortium, based on alliances between a number of companies. We would have got away with 2150 excess personnel: that was according to the plan presented by Monsieur Spinetta, and that's what would have happened if the negotiations with the French had been concluded straight away, at the beginning of spring, whereas now we have 6-7000 personnel in excess, that is triple the number. AirFrance would have paid one billion 7 hundred million to buy Alitalia shares and it would have invested 750 million. Basically it would have shelled out and there would have arrived from France the great sum of 2 billion 6 hundred million. Now we see that, instead, that money it's us that has to give it. It's not just that we don't get the cash, but we lose it. What's more, Malpensa would have been saved and restructured and the airport at Fiumicino would have been strengthened. This, in short, was what had been agreed between the Prodi government and AirFrance and that went up in the air because of the arrival of Berlusconi and his henchmen and because the Trades Unions, completely blinded by the short term, did not know how to choose between the tiny sacrifice today and an enormous blood-letting tomorrow, which is what we will have instead.

aaargh...

Peace is not the absence of war -- peace is the absence of fear. Ursula Franklin

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 10:33:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This, in short, was what had been agreed between the Prodi government and AirFrance and that went up in the air because of the arrival of Berlusconi and his henchmen and because the Trades Unions, completely blinded by the short term, did not know how to choose between the tiny sacrifice today and an enormous blood-letting tomorrow, which is what we will have instead.

The entire history of british unionism in one sentence. The insane belief that they could turn back the tide of change if they were stubborn enough.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 10:52:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Er... I know you like sweeping statements, but that one sweeps quite a bit, I'd say.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 02:52:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I fail to see what's remotely controversial about that analysis. In almost every case in the last 30 years, unions found themselves trying to preserve jobs, wages and differentials that were simply disappearing as the UK moved from mass employment heavy engineering.

The print unions NGA, NATSOPA and SOGAT no longer exist in any shape or form simply because the unions were unwilling to compromise with changes in technology. The dockers destroyed the various docks systems far more effectively than containerisation by their stupidity (and I know this cos in my early years in the labour party I spoke at length to a cockers shop steward who, after telling me tales of the silly pointless striks they had (and he agreed they were silly and pointless), I then asked him about his culpability with losing the docks as a working environment and he sighed and said, "well yea, I guess we did").

The NUM committed suicide with stupid tactics during the miners strike. They were right about the govt's intentions, stupid to fight as they did, in the old way.

the car industry ?? Excuse me ? Red Robbo ? Shipyards ? Seamen ?

Unionism largely destroyed itself because it turned its face against change, thinking that all it needed was sufficient resolve and they could prevent it and all could continue as before. Barbara Castle tried to get through the "In Place of Strife" legislation in 67/68. But it was wrecked by union intransigence. So 15 years later thatcher did far worse and brooked no argument. They should have realised In place of Strife was a bargain.

I'm genuinely surprised you think my view is off the wall.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 03:20:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I didn't say it was off the wall.

The entire history of british unionism in one sentence. The insane belief...etc...

is as sweeping a statement as one could make, which was my point.

And you consistently talk here as if developments were always somehow natural and inevitable: as if there were no powers at work pushing the levers of change ("technology" is not always a neutral force that just happens to change things, it can be applied to effect change in favour of the interests of a category or class).

So what would you have unions do but fight? OK, they didn't and don't always choose the right fights or the right way of fighting. But I don't understand your angry dismissal of them. Try getting mad at the capitalists instead?

(And don't get mad at me because I snark at one of your comments ;))

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 04:35:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yikes kiddo, I know I have a certain, much regretted, reputation but I wasn't aware I'd come across as "mad at you" in my previous reply.

Your criticism is valid, but equally I would argue that all technology change is driven, to a greater or lesser extent, by a vested interest of category or class. Change has a cost to implement, you don't do it if it doesn't make changes that reflect greater bang per buck.

What should unions do ? Accept change, embrace change, own change. Be a part of the process. Negotiate with an honest acceptance that the more the business thrives, the more chance there is of continuing employment.

However, the relationship between unions and management in much of the anglo-economy is based on an atagonistic zero-sum game where, to prevent unions gumming up the works entirely, the rules have been gamed to ensure only the management win nowadays.

you must remember that the most awful example of unions "protecting" differentials and jobs was in councils where the unions and management were in unholy alliance to prevent sex equality legislation from being implemented fairly. This resulted in huge legal payouts against the unions and the councils that nearly bankrupted them (and they whined all the way). And they did it because they were more interested in preserving the old-fashioned status quo than in helping work practices enter the 21st century.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 05:31:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's not accurate and it makes little sense. For instance, 'The entire history of british unionism' is not the same thing as 'the last 30 years'. Further:
unions found themselves trying to preserve jobs, wages and differentials

This is what unions are meant to do.

The print unions NGA, NATSOPA and SOGAT no longer exist in any shape or form

Is this supposed to mean there are no longer any UK print unions? Like other trades, the printers were eventually subsumed by one of the super-unions, Unite.

The dockers destroyed the various docks systems far more effectively than containerisation

Containerisation was decisive.

The NUM committed suicide with stupid tactics during the miners strike

The refusal of the executive of the mines deputies' union to bring out their members on strike was decisive.

the car industry ?? Excuse me ? Red Robbo ? Shipyards ? Seamen ?

What workforce would pay subscriptions if unions didn't fight to preserve jobs and improve conditions? Quite apart from which, globalisation was decisive in these examples.

So 15 years later thatcher did far worse and brooked no argument. They should have realised In place of Strife was a bargain.

And a subsequent Tory government would have left the unions in peace? Calling the shots is easy 40 years after the event, less so at the time. Yet it's questionable whether some folk can get it right even with the benefit of all that hindsight.

by yacker on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 07:24:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I heard there are some new kitties around!!! How about some pictures.

Ceebs, nice to you are back online. How did your cats handle the moving?

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 10:18:08 AM EST
I'm only partly back, till Friday. BT is working to reconnect my phone at the speed of a sprinting glacier, and then is working at a similar pace to allow my ISP to reconect my internet.

The girls took to the move quite well whereas the boys spent the journey panicing and shaking. I wasnt in the car however as I was still waiting for the movers to turn up with a second van. They were all quite stressed until we were all in the house. when they all calmed down. theyve now explored the whole space, and are being kept in for the next few weeks till they have become adjusted to the move.

pics of cats in cupboards, exploring new spaces will be forthcoming when i've got a real connection.

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.

by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 01:08:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
He's not new, but here's a kitty for you.  Arp found the coolest spot in the house.

Image Hosted by ImageShack.us

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes

by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 03:41:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This must be a messenger from ceilingcat ;-)

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 04:03:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hi Izzy, he's grown since the last picture - and his eyes on pic are just amazing. Looks sort of like the Lord of the House!
by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Sep 3rd, 2008 at 12:19:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
the new kitty is melo's.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 05:48:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
and my laptop is out of service and i can't load flickr with this puter. i am taking pootypix though, and he's showing me all sorts of things about my computer, by random hits on my keyboard...new apps, word searches, code windows, i am amazed!

i should have my old puter back by the end of the week, so look out!

his name is cosimo

Peace is not the absence of war -- peace is the absence of fear. Ursula Franklin

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 08:27:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ugg, last nights thread got too long with page refreshes taking minutes. I especially hate it when columns go down to 15 mm or then go to double screen width. It's almost impossible to track a conversation.

Good conversation. And now I hope everyone's got it out of their systems and we can return to a normal 30 comment OT.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 10:24:44 AM EST
Perhaps we should import the conversation to this OT. I've enjoyed having a good discussion, without the disagreements becoming hugely unfriendly as it can do.

Ad astra per aspera
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 10:30:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
yup, progress for sure...

Peace is not the absence of war -- peace is the absence of fear. Ursula Franklin
by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 10:35:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But then it would be helpful to give a short overview for those who do not have the time to read the entire discussion from the Monday OT.
by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 10:37:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's why I suggested to Helen that I could seed a new diary taking the key discussion themes from the OT.

Hopefully Helen will have chance to put her diary together.

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 10:39:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A diary would be good. I was going to post a comment but realised it was going to be

two words
wide all
the way
down.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 10:44:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm still at work so I'll have to leave this until later this evening now since I'm off to enrol on (another) course with my friend after work.

Ad astra per aspera
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 10:53:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Avoid that - put a long word (not necessarily meaningful) in your comment ; its width becomes the comment's width. email works great for that purpose.L

Auferre, trucidare, rapere, falsis nominibus imperium; atque, ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 10:54:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Except if you click on the date of the sub-sub-sub-sub-sub comment that it is hanging from, its back to normal width.


Utsukushikereba sore de ii
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 11:25:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ah sorry, I misunderstood you. I have no intention of rehashing the abortion debate. I was going to talk about nature vs nurture regarding perceived cultural differences between the genders.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 10:48:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That was partly my focus too, but I'll leave that bit to you to kick off.

Ad astra per aspera
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 10:52:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The difficulty is that at the heart of that debate was whether women should have control of their fertility. I could precis the yes side, but simply cannot represent the other. Not just because I disagree with it, but because I cannot summarize a position whose contradictions I consider profoundly dishonest.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 10:45:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
but can bring this in:


Is Helen Mirren right about date rape?

The actress stepped into a political and social minefield when she claimed date rape should not be a matter for the courts. Paul Vallely examines an issue which raises divisive issues of women's rights and personal responsibility

It might be that Helen Mirren didn't quite know what she was doing when she, casually it seemed, ventured the thought that date rape was, in some circumstances not an issue for the courts but one which needed to be worked through as part of the subtle negotiations of modern gender manners. Or it may be that the award-winning actress deliberately wandered into a political minefield out of a conviction that the pendulum has swung too far on the issue. There is, controversially, a new sense of that in the air.

Dame Helen's contention was that a woman who voluntarily ended up in a man's bedroom and engaged in sexual activity - but then said no to intercourse - could not seriously expect to take that man to court on a charge of rape if he ignored her last-minute insistence that she did not want full sex.

That had happened to her "a couple of times" 40 years ago when she was a budding actress. She had not reported the incidents to police because "you couldn't do that in those days". And perhaps, she suggested, that was not such a bad thing.

Such views violate the current orthodoxy that, when it comes to sexual consent, no means no. Women's groups and anti-rape campaigners were infuriated by the 63-year-old's views, which, they insist, hark back to a mindset that transferred the blame for rape from the rapist to the victim, by suggesting that what a woman wears, or how she behaves, can in someway mitigate the culpability of the man who violates her. It is back to the subliminal "she was asking for it" defence.



In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 04:35:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
We can tell that by the inflaming subject.

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. --Charu Saxena.
by metavision on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 04:51:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sorry, reel in shock if you wish, but it's a topic where I have no view I care to express.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 05:06:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
bleh. What I used to tell people who'd say they really couldn't stop is what would you do if your mom walked in.

That said, the criminal system isn't particularly good at dealing with date rape. Most of the time there isn't enough evidence for prosecution. Very often the only evidence is the statement of the accuser. Given that the standard defense is that it was consensual, what this amounts to is only a single eyewitness statement that a crime took place. You can't, or at least shouldn't be able to prosecute on that basis. (If you're having difficulty with this, imagine reporting that you saw your neighbour killing someone. The police will investigate, but if they find no evidence beyond your statement they'll drop the case. It doesn't matter how credible you are, that there is no reason for you to lie, nor the character or past acts of your neighbour.)

So in practice the way of dealing with it has to be education. Not just about date rape per se, but the whole common male mindset about sex of which date rape is only the extreme manifestation. Way too many men in this (and other) societies see sex as something they're getting out of women, rather than as a very nice mutual exchange of giving and getting pleasure.

by MarekNYC on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 05:18:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What I used to tell people who'd say they really couldn't stop is what would you do if your mom walked in.

Classic, Marek, thank you. <grin>

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Sep 3rd, 2008 at 06:07:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think she's right that in certain conditions (and she says literally 'after stripping naked and at tle last minute') it's very hard to win in court given the "beyond reasonable doubt" criminal standard of proof, but she has been criticised by the Solicitor General on the grounds that her statement will discourage people from reporting date rape to the police at a time when the reporting rate is finally growing because there's less stigma.

I agree with Marek that one can always stop.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Sep 3rd, 2008 at 06:07:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Richard Cohen in the WaPo (!!) makes fun of McCain's choice of Palin. Genuinely laugh out loud funny

Probably the most depressing thing about Palin is not her selection but the defense of it. It has produced a parade of GOP spokesmen intent on spiking the needle on a polygraph. Looking right into the camera, they offer statement after statement that they hope the voters will swallow but that history will forget.


keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 11:09:54 AM EST
The NYT publishes a photo of Palin's office -

Gov. Sarah Palin in 2007 in her downtown Anchorage office, which has a decidedly Alaskan touch to the décor.
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 11:19:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The flip-flops are not decidedly Alaskan, they're decidedly Southern Californian.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 11:24:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A crushed bear and a crustacean. Possibly a soon-to-be crushed politician.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 12:00:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
there's a crab too...

Peace is not the absence of war -- peace is the absence of fear. Ursula Franklin
by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 12:22:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That would be the crustacean.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 01:29:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
{snigger}

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 01:40:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
it was a joke, migeru

hinging on the fact that sven didn't specify that the pol and the crustacean were different entities...

never mind!

Peace is not the absence of war -- peace is the absence of fear. Ursula Franklin

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 03:08:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
A poem posted at the AOL news site, in the voice of John McCain addressing the potential veeps he passed up:

Dearest Joe and Tim and Mitt
I'd best get right to the heart of it
Since all of my best efforts are failin'
I'm forced to go with Sarah Palin
It's not you; you're all just swell
But this campaign has gone to hell
And so it's with some deep regret
That I appoint this playboy pet
She's not qualified for the post
But she's the lady I like most
And right now what this ticket lacks
Is someone that looks hot in slacks
Someone who can have a child
Will send the lady voters wild
And cause them to stampeed to me
It'll happen, wait and see
I tried to appeal to the voter's mind
And found myself, well, "left behind"
My only option was to pick
A female christian lunatic
So I'm sorry, to you all
That one of you didn't get the call
But in this race, as you must see
It's all about electing me
My only chance here is to punt
And choose this silly Alaskan *

(* Word chosen because he has a history of using it)



Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 01:14:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Is there any danger that all this derision might whip up a sympathy vote ?

I mean seriously, the Dems are waist deep already in reasons why she shouldn't be Mayor of Wasilia let alone VP. It's getting towards being like shooting moose in a cage. Is there a downside to the pile-on ?

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 01:38:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No, not yet.  And the Dems aren't responsible.  It's the press that's killing the McCain camp.

And it gets worse: Now TPM finds that the lobbyist she hired for Wasilla pork projects is tied to Jack Abramoff.

The gift that keeps on giving.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 01:46:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Can somebody please find one-single-detail in that photo that does NOT say 'total contradiction'?

Lying like a rug?
Bear hug
California (dreaming) tan
Claws ready
Slick as glass
Misplaced taste
Worse than a bucket of crabs
Out of place and time

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. --Charu Saxena.

by metavision on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 02:33:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
All I know is that when I look at that photo I get a visceral urge to hide behind a sofa.
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 02:48:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Take the bear with you...

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 04:04:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Casting the Beauty Platform for a Multi-Polar Peace

Another one of those gonza posts that asks a vague question then throws four coins six times and copies and pastes from an online Yijing translation to answer it.

But, OTOH, its got music.

Utsukushikereba sore de ii

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 11:28:20 AM EST
Latest Gallup National Tracking Poll, conducted Aug 30 through Sept 1, has:

Obama 50
McCain 42

There's a 2% MOE so the full range is:

O 48 - 52%
M 40 - 44%

This should reflect a "Convention Bounce" and initial reaction to the Palin VP announcement.  Looking at the previous national polls this result is consistent over the last week.


Och nu den svenska kocken bakar en Alaskan älg jägare. Bonk! Bonk! Bonk!

by ATinNM on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 01:35:11 PM EST
How this works out across the states, where the President is elected, remains to be seen.  The pollsters are waiting until after the GOP Convention before they resume polling.  When they do the states to watch are:
State - Pre-Convention Status

Colorado - McCain Leaning
Florida - McCain Leaning
Indiana - McCain Leaning
Iowa - Obama Leaning
Michigan - Obama Likely
Minnesota - Obama Likely
Nevada - McCain Leaning
New Mexico - Obama Likely
Ohio - Toss-Up
Pennsylvania - Obama Likely

And the always Bell Weather State of Missouri.  If Obama takes a lead here we need to start analyzing the potential for a Obama Landslide.


Och nu den svenska kocken bakar en Alaskan älg jägare. Bonk! Bonk! Bonk!

by ATinNM on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 01:44:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Missouri and Florida are your landslide indicators.  North Carolina is your "It's getting ugly" indicator.

Georgia is your "Pack your shit, GOPers, we're shipping y'all to Alaska and cutting you from the Union" indicator.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 01:53:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thought about adding North Carolina to the list, perhaps it should be.  

Och nu den svenska kocken bakar en Alaskan älg jägare. Bonk! Bonk! Bonk!
by ATinNM on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 02:15:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Monday's poll releases should reflect the convention bounce.  This is the start of Palin reaction after the media vetting has begun.

The consensus of the polls seems to be Obama right at 49% and climbing.  McCain seems to be at 42-43% and sinking.  How much of that is noise, how much is outrage over Palin -- we don't know yet.  But I'd, of course, rather be on our side of those numbers.

If this Silver/Abramoff thing on her turns out to be a big deal, Palin's "reformer" presentation goes from floating in the toilet to being flushed.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 01:51:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
At what point can Palin or McCain say "thanks but no thanks" and get a new VP ? Right now she just seems to be an anchor dragging him down.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 02:00:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
if he gets officially selected, can he at any point be replaced? or if he resigns can they choose again or does that make her the candidate?

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 02:07:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The Convention doesn't have to elect her and once nominated she can resign, "For family reasons."  Don't know anything about the Rules and Regulations of the Republican Party once she has been voted as the VP nominee.  

AFAIK, there's never been a Recall of a VP tho' Eagleton resigned from the McGovern Campaign in the 70s.

Och nu den svenska kocken bakar en Alaskan älg jägare. Bonk! Bonk! Bonk!

by ATinNM on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 02:20:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Perhaps they dont see any of her drawbacks as negatives, perhaps they see this as the way a politiccian should act.

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 02:30:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
They've got their Convention to help turn things around.  But, right now, the GOP is broken, battered, disorganized, and confused.  An 6-8% lead, if it holds, translates into something like 350-400 EVs, a loss of 15-20 House Seats, and a loss of 10, or so, Senate seats.

Sucks to be them (he-he-he)


Och nu den svenska kocken bakar en Alaskan älg jägare. Bonk! Bonk! Bonk!

by ATinNM on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 02:27:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Nikolas Kozloff: McCain and the Telecoms

Making a Killing in Iraq

Even as McCain was lobbying hard for the Telecom industry in the late 1990s, the Arizona Senator worked overtime to build up the case for war in the Middle East.  McCain served as the "honorary co-chair" of the Committee for the Liberation of Iraq, a group which helped push for official government as well as public support for the invasion of Iraq after the 9/11 terror attacks.

In the aftermath of the invasion, the telecoms scrambled to get a piece of the action as Iraq was opened up for business.  Cellular giant Qualcomm managed to exert political influence over the Pentagon which in turn pressured the Coalition Provisional Authority to change an Iraqi police radio contract to favor Qualcomm's patented cellular technology.

What's more, the Pentagon hired MCI---the former World Com, which had declared bankruptcy amidst an accounting fraud scandal in July, 2002---to build a small wireless phone network in Iraq.  Incensed, Democratic Senator Ted Kennedy urged major federal agencies to stop doing business with bankrupt telecom giant MCI and explain why its record $9 billion accounting fraud should not disqualify the company from receiving lucrative government contracts.
 
As it turned out Kennedy was right to harbor suspicions about the dodgy company.  After the Coalition Provisional Authority issued MCI cell phones to U.S. personnel in Baghdad's Green Zone, problems arose.  Reportedly, cell phone owners received monthly bills as high as $10,000.  The individuals had never received bills, leaving the impression that the phone calls, which cost $1.25 a minute, were free.  The U.S. State Department subsequently decided to shut the phone calls down.



Peace is not the absence of war -- peace is the absence of fear. Ursula Franklin
by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 02:56:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Fusion center operations unleashed during the national Labor Day weekend holiday: DemocracyNow! headlines, 1 Sept 2008, from St Paul/Minneapolis, "The Twin Cities," where the RNC is staged. Goodman had reported ACLU and press monitors of fusion centers in advance of the RNC. More generally, the Washington Post reported last April that domestic "intelligence centers run by states across the country have access to personal information about millions of Americans, including unlisted cellphone numbers, insurance claims, driver's license photographs and credit reports." Such artifacts are exactly what MN police sought through warrantless searches and detention of individuals suspected by them of "terrorism" during RNC proceedings.

Related documentary sources are I-Witness video and Twin Cities Indymedia.

FBI & St. Paul Police Carry Out "Preemptive" House Raids  Democracy Now!'s Elizabeth Press files a report on police action in

COLEEN ROWLEY:  Well, I can tell you what it's supposed to be. And then I retired in 2004, and so these fusion centers have grown, of course, since that time, and who knows what it actually now amounts to? What it actually is supposed to be is in a major event, such as the RNC, the FBI is really to take the lead on the counterintelligence aspect, which, of course, if there was a true threat--let's say there was a domestic terrorism group, which is--this is what we're talking about. We're talking about at the very most nonviolent civil disobedience. So the confusion with true intelligence for a terrorist threat is quite enormous. There's a big range there. But in a real case, obviously, if you really did have, let's say, the Aryan Brotherhood or something like that, a group bent on terrorism, the FBI is supposed to take the lead on that and coordinate the intelligence gathering.
AMY GOODMAN: What is your experience with preemptive raids?
COLEEN ROWLEY: Well, the word "preemptive," of course, is-- should send a red flag up, because that word came into play right before the Iraq war. And, of course, we all know that it's very, very difficult to determine ahead of time what is a true threat. And so, when you start this word "preemptive," and now, unfortunately, it seems to have migrated to domestic law enforcement. You cannot determine--we always talk about intent and capability, and if you really know that a group is going to pull off a bank robbery, you really have to make sure that an overt act is committed in furtherance of that. It's not enough to know, for instance, that somebody's talking about a bank robbery. So that's a problem here, and certainly when you get into satire and, you know, taunts and this type of thing, it seems to be a terribly misguided and an overreaction on the part of police.

ELIZABETH PRESS: Attorney Bruce Nestor, president of the Minnesota chapter of the National Lawyers Guild, explains the charge.
BRUCE NESTOR: If they had concrete evidence of criminal activity, that could have been presented by a prosecutor to a judge, and a criminal arrest warrant would have been obtained. Instead, what we've had to date is that the police alone, or the sheriff's office, has arrested people for probable cause without any input or review by a prosecutor or a judge. That allows them to hold them for thirty-six hours. And because the charge is conspiracy, it really drags in the whole kitchen sink to support the charge.
[...]
ELIZABETH PRESS: The officers said they were not looking for information related to protests at the RNC. They soon left. But then, two hours later, the St. Paul police arrived in minivans with civilian license plates and stormed up to the house. They detained two people outside the house and surrounded the building with assault rifles in hand as they waited for their warrant to arrive. And while everyone waited, Denis Moynihan of Free Speech TV received a statement from the inside by Eileen Clancy of I-Witness Video.



Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by MarketTrustee (pbing@estudioinc.com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 02:11:01 PM EST
this stuff happens in the UK too. the joys of being under permanent threat of terrorism is that the definition of "terrorism" gets to cover any inconvenience to the state. any refusal to comply with any order or request by an official can be interpreted as "resistance" and dealt with accordingly.

Our only hope is that when our economies collapse under the weight of their lack of preparation for global warming or oil shortages that we get out from under (temporarily).

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 03:06:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Being able to "get out from under" in any case depends on each's ability to extricate his or herself both intellectually and practicably from dependence on the regime that is forming. I don't think that sensibility of independence precludes endorsement of or participation institutional government per se. I do think that "temporarily" such an adaptation is a health rejection of invidious norms. A fragmented polity is counter-intuitive  in this age of so-called grassroots organizations. But that's exactly what's required to disable totalitarian remedies.

See this personal strategic check list.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by MarketTrustee (pbing@estudioinc.com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 04:17:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Congressman Frank Pallone of New Jersey has accused Palin of treason for her work in the Alaska Independence Party.

Wow.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 03:41:01 PM EST
we could see that grin on your face. I can't suppress the feeling you're loving this to pieces.
by Nomad on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 04:02:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I can't express the awesomeness of this properly.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 04:06:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
 If the AIP isn't an illegal organisation, then she's done nothing wrong. As I said last night, you might as well change people who fly the confederate flag.

Course you might question her committment to the republican party, especially in the light of her video address to them from the governor's office. you might question her fitness to be VP (although that's McCain's job) but a traitor... ?

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 04:06:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Wouldn't this be like making someone from the SNP deputy PM?

It's certainly bizarre and eccentric, but unless the AIP runs paramilitary domestic terrorism schools, I'm not sure it's treasonous.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 04:15:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Of course it's not treasonous.  I'm just stunned to hear of a Democrat saying that about a Republican after years of it being said of us.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 04:37:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Okay - not so much understanding patriotism here, this being Europe where we don't really do patriotism unless there's food involved.
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 06:07:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
British food? I realize you've got all those immigrants as well as fancy chefs applying French techniques to Brit food now, but in terms of old school home cooking I don't think I'd be that patriotic. Ditto for the Germans.
by MarekNYC on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 06:18:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
(Shhhhhh....

....nobody mention pancakes)

by Sassafras on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 06:49:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]


Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 06:59:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ack!

Sassafras mentioned the "P" word!

Och nu den svenska kocken bakar en Alaskan älg jägare. Bonk! Bonk! Bonk!

by ATinNM on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 07:02:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's not PANCAKES we can believe in!

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 07:13:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Or footballs.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Sep 3rd, 2008 at 06:00:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's not treason legally. But the AIP's website does include the following quote by the founder:
"I'm an Alaskan, not an American. I've got no use for America or her damned institutions."
With all we've been learning about Alaskan politics in the last few days, I've started wondering if we should sell it back to Russia...
by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 06:46:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It means the Democrats are going to go after the GOP nominees as the GOP has been doing for the last 30 years.

Och nu den svenska kocken bakar en Alaskan älg jägare. Bonk! Bonk! Bonk!
by ATinNM on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 04:16:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Maybe

Och nu den svenska kocken bakar en Alaskan älg jägare. Bonk! Bonk! Bonk!
by ATinNM on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 04:18:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
McCain has canceled his interview with Larry King tonight because Campbell Brown pwn3d Tucker Bounds last night on CNN.

Now Todd Palin, we find, was an AIP member until 2002.

I can't even keep up.

Josh Marshall has thrown his hands up.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 04:36:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
ROTFLMAO

Since the McCain campaign said they vetted her McCain must not care about her AIP membership.

This gets better all the time.


Och nu den svenska kocken bakar en Alaskan älg jägare. Bonk! Bonk! Bonk!

by ATinNM on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 04:45:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Just trundled round a couple of celeb gossip sites wondering what they'd picked up,and there are rumours of Naked pics of her wandering the net too...

just to really get the christian right frothing.

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.

by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 07:40:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Those rumors have allegedly circulated for a while without any actual photos coming up.  I think it's more winger fantasy than anything.  Most of them have never seen naked women before (at least not ones worth seeing naked), so you know....

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 07:51:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
send us an email address.

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 07:55:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
An email?

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 08:09:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
yes, throw an email at my email address

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 08:12:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Have replied.  Again: Oh my.

Dunno if that's her, though.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 08:22:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
as I said the source is entirely dubious, but that is the one that is being touted around as real.

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 08:26:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
She's a former beauty queen, I'd be shocked if there were nothing of the sort.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Sep 3rd, 2008 at 05:59:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There's a diary on dKos with a great line

Does everyone understand now why Obama has been signaling to back off on Sarah Palin? Because for once, the realities of this misbegotten candidacy are so apparent that even the supermarket tabloids can pick up on them.

You know, "back off!" is what they shout when a missile is misfiring on the launchpad--it's either going to fizzle out or explode.



keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 05:46:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's true, but, at the same time, the more the better.  If we can force her off the ticket in St Paul, it will almost certainly kill McCain's campaign.

It's a verbal blood sport.  No mercy.  Keep firing until the chamber's empty.

And Obama said to back off the daughter, not Sarah Palin.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 06:08:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Are you sure ?? Palin is about as bad as it can get. Pure comedy gold. Lose her and he might pick a politician who knows what they're doing. She is a hick from the backwoods who's lost in the big city politics, she is a big fat red arterial bleed for McCain and the sharks are biting off chunks for fun.

Leave her alone.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 06:16:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Palin isn't the point. People don't really vote based on who they want to be VP. But the reflection on McCain's judgement is wonderful. And that'll hold true if he dumps her. As Drew says, it's particularly good that this is happening during the convention when lot's of low info undecideds have just begun to really pay attention.
by MarekNYC on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 06:20:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And some early signs are actually pointing to a reverse-bounce for the GOP right now from Palin and the convention.  I don't know if that will hold.  We'll see.  But that'd be big.

Obama's surging.  McCain's falling.  Gotta keep it up.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 06:32:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Agree the situation looks promising.  

We need to keep our objectivity going, though.

Palin can pull it out with a boffo speech.  The GOP has the capability to run a lean, mean, Gettin' Out the Vote Machine.  The Fundies and Conservatives are stoked.  McCain is starting to raise money.  Their Propaganda Message people are First Rate.

This ain't anywhere near over.

Och nu den svenska kocken bakar en Alaskan älg jägare. Bonk! Bonk! Bonk!

by ATinNM on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 06:55:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Normally the conventioning parties get about 4% extra votes down to exposure during their conventions it then falls away. Is there any case before of a party actually managing  to drop their numbers during their convention? and if so did they recover in the couple of weeks after?

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 07:21:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Here's a good analysis of a Convention Bounce.  Naturally the only negative bounce was good old McGovern in '72.

(oh well)

Och nu den svenska kocken bakar en Alaskan älg jägare. Bonk! Bonk! Bonk!

by ATinNM on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 09:24:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Drew: I didn't realize this about you.  You are a blood-thirsty basta..; I like that about you.

Welcome to ET, Paul Krugman
by THE Twank (paszeski__aaaaaaatttttt__yahoo.com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 06:47:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Drew, can you believe this ?

   ABC News' Teddy Davis Reports: Conservative icon Phyllis Schlafly is taking the McCain campaign to task for notifying her at the last-minute that Sarah Palin will be a no-show on Tuesday when the Republican National Coalition for Life holds an event honoring the Alaska governor.

    "I think this is clearly somebody in the McCain campaign who doesn't understand where the votes are coming from," Schlafly told ABC News. "They only told me this at 10 o'clock last night and it was a call from somebody down-the-line in the McCain campaign."

Palin isn't going to show to a meeting set-up to honor her?  Schlafly was informed by "somebody down-the-line?"

Jesus.  The McCain campaign seems to think they are running for County Clerk.

Och nu den svenska kocken bakar en Alaskan älg jägare. Bonk! Bonk! Bonk!

by ATinNM on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 07:29:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's only the second day of the convention, and the GOPers are in lockdown.  Palin is now in an undisclosed location.  Even Katie Couric is ripping her.  And when you lose an airhead like Couric, you know it's going to shit.

Camp McCain is under siege.  And they don't know what to do.

And to think Palin was a darling of the wingers -- one of their up and coming stars.  They can sure pick'em on the other side of the aisle, can't they?

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 07:42:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The pros on the Other Side must be in full freak-out mode to lock her down like that; it goes against all political tactics when you've GOT to be introducing a newbie - on someone else's dime, no less - to the electorate.  They've got to be wandering around wondering what ELSE is buried under the not-so-frozen-no-more Alaskan tundra.  

Och nu den svenska kocken bakar en Alaskan älg jägare. Bonk! Bonk! Bonk!
by ATinNM on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 07:55:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Interesting (long) writeup about Palin, supposedly by someone who knows her personally, at
http://www.washingtonindependent.com/3671/the-reform-candidate (very slow load) starts off:

"I am a resident of Wasilla, Alaska. I have known Sarah since 1992. Everyone here knows Sarah, so it is nothing special to say we are on a first-name basis. Our children have attended the same schools. Her father was my child's favorite substitute teacher. I also am on a first name basis with her parents and mother-in-law. I attended more City Council meetings during her administration than about 99% of the residents of the city."

and ends up:

"Around Wasilla there are people who went to high school with Sarah. They call her "Sarah Barracuda" because of her unbridled ambition and predatory ruthlessness."

by asdf on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 09:43:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
for one, of the impact of the Georgia war on the Causasus energy corridor, from Platts


September 2, 2008 - What lessons can be learned from the Georgian war? It wasn't fought over energy, although energy issues have long featured in the strategic thinking of the principal protagonists, Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili and Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin.

But it does have profound consequences for global energy security.

Various strategic conclusions can be drawn from the August conflict in Georgia, each with implications for regional - indeed global - energy security.

One is that the Georgian war demonstrated that Russia is quite prepared to use force in pursuit of its interests.

And while Western states or alliances, notably NATO, are prepared to do likewise - remember Kosovo - Russia's relative ability to take military action in a cluster of energy-important countries around its borders is, at present, much greater than anyone else's.

This has implications for two of Russia's biggest neighbors, Ukraine and Kazakhstan, should the underlying ethnicity of their large Russian populations ever become a point of contention for Moscow, Kiev or Astana.

(...)

While existing energy transit through the South Caucasus will be more or less maintained, prospects for a major expansion of this into an artery for European gas supplies are now very much in question.



In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 04:40:50 PM EST
Would it be better if the AT & Drew Show© segregated our posts and comments about the US Presidential Campaign to a diary?

I assume a Recommend is a Yes vote.

Och nu den svenska kocken bakar en Alaskan älg jägare. Bonk! Bonk! Bonk!

by ATinNM on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 05:01:50 PM EST
I'd rather you didn't cos it would make the OT empty and I hate shuttling between diaries.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 05:34:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If you do, are you looking for other "cast members"? ;)

Welcome to ET, Paul Krugman
by THE Twank (paszeski__aaaaaaatttttt__yahoo.com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 05:37:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Everybody's a cast member in the AT & Drew Show(c).

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Tue Sep 2nd, 2008 at 05:55:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]