European Tribune

European Salon de News, Discussion et Klatsch - 8. October

by Fran
Tue Oct 7th, 2008 at 02:38:52 PM EST

On this date in history:

1870 - Louis Vierne, a renowned French organist and composer, was born.(d. 1937)

More here and video


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EUROPE
by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 7th, 2008 at 02:39:38 PM EST
EU Defense a Possible Victim of Financial Crisis: Analysts | Europe | Deutsche Welle | 07.10.2008
With the global financial crisis taking hold and governments on both sides of the Atlantic rushing to the aid of banks, analysts have forecast a potential long-term downsizing of military budgets in Europe and the US.

The pressure that has been applied by the current crisis and uncertainty over whether the $700-billion US bailout scheme will in fact have a significantly remedying effect on the world's financial woes may make some military spending difficult to justify, the defense analysts, from London's International Institute for Strategic Studies, said Tuesday.

"I can't see defense is going to escape any kind of austerity measures," said defense economist Mark Stoker from the London institute, as quoted by Reuters.

"It would be very difficult for any government to justify cutting health and education in favour of, say, building two aircraft carriers and buying a load of planes to stick on them."

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 7th, 2008 at 02:42:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
a "silver lining" rather than "collateral damage"

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Tue Oct 7th, 2008 at 03:21:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
to me this would be extremely desireable. Sadly my cynicism prevents me from believing such wisdom is possible. The UK is utterly beyond redemption in its delusional belief in its military relevance and willingness to sacrifice any amount of blood and treasure for american interests, all to show how loyal and worthy its leaders are of that crucial photo op on the white house lawn.

And we may be the worst, but are by no means alone in this.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Oct 7th, 2008 at 05:05:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well Greece which has a monster of a defense budget won't budge: It was announced yesterday that despite the crisis and this year's state budget cuts (slashing public investment by 25%) the weapons procurement part of the (obscene already) defense portion of the budget will reach ~2.2 billion Euros while this year's weapons procurements were off-target reaching 2,6 billion Euros instead of the budgeted 1,8 billion. This at the same time that the new and widely advertised State Poverty Fund which was promised nearly 500 million Euros a year won't be receiving more than 100 million and Education expenditure remains frozen at 2,75% of GDP (which is among the lowest in Europe I think), despite pre-election promises to reach 5% soon. At the same time the (wildly optimistic) budget promises to reduce the deficit and the ministry of economics reckons that the economy will keep growing >3% this coming fiscal year.

They also expect to increase tax receipts by ~15% (7 billion Euros) at a time of crisis, among other means by abolishing the 10.000 Euro tax exemption for income earned by freelancers and self-employed (which is ~1,000,000 people in Greece - which means that a lot of people with incomes below the poverty level will now be taxed) and making property taxes more regressive (tax cuts for the large property owners, tax increases for the small property owners). On the plus side, they're upping taxes on capital gains and have started taxing stock options (though with the markets in free fall, good luck with that). People are  generally not pleased at all.

Through an incessant string of scandals, unpopular economic policy, internal divisions and a general air of mismanagement, conservatives are crashing in the opinion polls (they also announced a 100.000 binding bank deposit state guarantee today and are planning to go on with - get this - bank and insurance company privatizations in this economic climate).

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake

by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Tue Oct 7th, 2008 at 07:01:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sarkozy wants Barroso to reject parliament decision on downloading - EUobserver

The European Commission has rejected a request from the French president that commission President Barroso work to overturn the European Parliament's decision banning the cutting of internet access to websurfers who download copyrighted films or music.

President Nicolas Sarkozy last week wrote to the EU executive asking Mr Barroso's "personal commitment" to rejecting an amendment buried within the parliament's vote on a telecoms bill approved by a large majority of lawmakers on 24 September.

"It is fundamental that the amendment adopted by the European Parliament be rejected by the commission," Mr Sarkozy wrote.

The amendment expressly forbade maneouvres such as the cut-off of internet service as a way of addressing piracy - something currently being considered by the French government. The European bill following the vote includes language declaring: "No restriction may be imposed on the fundamental rights and freedoms of end-users without a prior ruling by the judicial authorities."

This would in effect make a draft law on internet use planned by the French government null and void, as the latter stipulates that users who use the web for illegal downloading would see their internet access cut after two warning letters.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 7th, 2008 at 02:43:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sarkozy is pushing a theme dear to his wife, who happens to be a singer.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Tue Oct 7th, 2008 at 03:22:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
how does Sarko expect to enforce this ?? Just wanting something to be done doesn't make it possible.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Oct 7th, 2008 at 05:06:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This is one of those things you don't want to be caught spending lots of time on right now.  I suggest the opposition make a bigger fuss than usual, just to demonstrate how little Sarkozy has going on.
by paving on Tue Oct 7th, 2008 at 06:58:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Google to launch European Parliament election service - EUobserver

EUOBSERVER / BRUSSELS - Google News is to launching a special service covering the European Parliament elections next June.

Drawing on the experience from a similar new service in the US presidential elections, the search engine giant is currently considering its approach to the upcoming European elections, communications manager Bill Echikson told a group of journalists at a press briefing in Brussels on Tuesday (7 October).

Political parties in Europe struggle to find pan-European themes that galvanise people to go out and vote

Contacts directly with the European Parliament will soon be established, but a launch date is yet to be decided.

Google's US election service allows, among other things, users to search videos uploaded to YouTube's 'Politicians' category, including those of the official channels of candidates running in the elections.

Using speech recognition, the company can now let users search for exact words in the videos and jump directly to the specific parts. Quotes from the candidates can also be searched - and compared.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 7th, 2008 at 02:43:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
French elite in the dock as £450m Angola arms trial begins in Paris - Times Online

Some of the leading names in France's political and business elite went on trial yesterday over an arms-dealing scandal that could shine light on the murkiest dealings of the French state.

The son of the late President Mitterrand joined 41 prominent figures in court for the start of the "Angolagate" trial, concerning the alleged illicit sale of £450 million of Russian weapons and equipment to Angola in the 1990s. Jean-Christophe Mitterrand, 61, Jacques Attali, the intellectual and banker who advised the late President, and Paul-Loup Sulitzer, a popular thriller writer, are among the well-known accused who have generated huge interest in the proceedings.

But the main defendants are Arkadi Gaydamak, a Russian-Israeli billionaire, and Pierre Falcone, a French businessman, who have in turn implied that the French Government knew of and allowed a secret arms channel to Angola after a UN embargo blocked official French sales.

[Murdoch Alert]
by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 7th, 2008 at 02:46:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
is when the government can overrule the judicial system to avoid such embarrassing trials...

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Tue Oct 7th, 2008 at 03:26:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Exactly. to be honest I'm surprised that your lot allowed this to proceed. France enjoys its arms trade at least as much as the UK and such trials are inconvenient and bad for business.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Oct 7th, 2008 at 05:10:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's mostly not friends of Sarkozy on trial. That's the difference.
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Tue Oct 7th, 2008 at 06:08:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Make that "former" friends of Sarko. Pasqua, who was to become Neuilly's mayor in the eighties, was the first of a long list of people betrayed by Sarko.

Auferre, trucidare, rapere, falsis nominibus imperium; atque, ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Tue Oct 7th, 2008 at 06:15:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Bush & Cheney can be proud of this evident spread of American style "true democracy" into Europe. He has indeed shown them the way.

If sanity be culturally normative, then by the norms of this culture I claim insanity.
by ARGeezer (argeezer a in a circle yahoo dot com) on Tue Oct 7th, 2008 at 08:29:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The founder of PlaNet Finance?  Disgraceful.  What is up with the founders of world-famous NGOs going off the deep end?

Attali is an excellent speaker, but a boorish, brutish egomaniac.  If he is found guilty, good riddance.

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.

by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Tue Oct 7th, 2008 at 07:14:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
He's been Mitterrand's "sherpa" (ie his personal advisor on international issues) for years, before going on to found the EBRD (and trading its location, London rather than Paris, in order to get the job for him - and losing it a few months later over stupid perks he wanted for himself).


Attali is an excellent speaker, but a boorish, brutish egomaniac.

That's as good a description of him as can be made.


If he is found guilty, good riddance.

yep.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 04:18:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
French prosecutors seek trial for ex-PM Dominique de Villepin over Clearstream affair - Telegraph
A Paris prosecutor has called for former French prime minister Dominique de Villepin to face trial for his alleged part in a plot to smear President Nicolas Sarkozy.

Mr de Villepin, 54, has been under judicial investigation since July last year over the so-called Clearstream affair, suspected of conspiring to slander Mr Sarkozy when the pair were arch-rivals to succeed president Jacques Chirac.

Judges suspect Mr de Villepin of helping to orchestrate the leak in 2004 of a list of bogus account-holders at the Clearstream bank in Luxembourg, which included Mr Sarkozy's name.

The account holders - including businessmen and public figures - were made to look as if they had received illicit kickbacks from arms sales.

In a report marking the close of investigations, prosecutor Jean-Claude Marin recommended that Mr de Villepin go on trial for "complicity in slanderous accusations".

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 7th, 2008 at 02:47:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hmm, can't imagine why this one is still making the rounds...
by paving on Tue Oct 7th, 2008 at 06:59:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Vengeance is mine, saith the Sarkozy.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 03:40:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
News media feel limits to Georgia's democracy - International Herald Tribune

TBILISI, Georgia: The cameras at Georgia's main opposition broadcaster, Imedi, kept rolling Nov. 7, when masked riot police officers, armed with machine guns, burst into the studio. They smashed equipment, ordered employees and television guests to lie on the floor and confiscated their cellphones. A news anchor remained on screen throughout, describing the mayhem. Then all went black.

The pretext for the raid -- which silenced the channel -- was a government claim that Imedi was fomenting unrest after it broadcast a statement by one of its founders, Badri Patarkatsishvili, promising to topple the government of President Mikheil Saakashvili.

Earlier that day, riot police lashed out with clubs and fired rubber bullets at unarmed antigovernment protesters. A nine-day state of emergency followed.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 7th, 2008 at 02:48:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
the US invaded Georgia to restore democracy!

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Tue Oct 7th, 2008 at 03:26:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
After that, Texas!

When the music's over, turn out the light. Jim Morrison, the doors
by THE Twank (paszeski__aaaaaaatttttt__yahoo.com) on Tue Oct 7th, 2008 at 04:49:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Let's keep a sense of proportion. Not Texas.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 03:42:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Patarkatsishvili used to be a Saakashvili supporter. He was also a front for Georgian organized crime in Russia during the 90's. The Georgian mafias were the single largest national group operating within Russia. During his stay in Georgia several international warrants were issued against him.

A close collaborator with Berezovskij, Badri financed the Saakashvili "Revolution of Roses" along with Soros and Washington.

Badri became a strong opponent of Saakashvili in 2005. His death last February 2 in London due officially to a heart attack remains unclear.

Strange that facts of a year ago become news now.

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 01:36:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Montenegro set to recognize Kosovo - CNN.com

PODGORICA, Montenegro (AP) -- Montenegro's president has indicated his tiny Balkan state will recognize Kosovo's independence despite bitter opposition from traditional ally Serbia.

Vujanovic said Montenegro needed to make a decision on Kosovo's status soon.

President Filip Vujanovic said Tuesday the decision will have to be made soon because of Montenegro's desire to become an European Union and NATO member.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 7th, 2008 at 02:49:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
EU to start Moldova talks despite election fearsEUobserver

EUOBSERVER / BRUSSELS - The EU will start negotiations on a new partnership agreement with Moldova despite the risk the Communist government may exploit the move in the run up to general elections next spring, Kalman Miszei, the EU's top diplomat on Moldova told MEPs on Monday (6 October).

Estonian socialist MEP and head of the EU-Moldova delegation Marianne Mikko warned that the approval of a negotiation mandate for the new partnership pact by 27 EU states could be an image boost for the current Communist leadership, despite its poor record on economic and judicial reform, amid rampant corruption and human trafficking problems.

The Moldovan parliament: the current administration has not clamped down on crime and corruption

But the EU wants to speed-up negotiations with Moldova in the aftermath of the Russia-Georgia conflict, with Moldova also home to a Russian-fueled frozen conflict in Transnistria, a strategically important region bordering Ukraine on the EU's eastern fringe.

"The risk for the ruling party to exploit the benefits of a Commission mandate before the elections is outplayed by the positive effects of this EU signal to Moldova, which has a geopolitical significance," Mr Missei said. A "wait and see" attitude due to the upcoming elections would be far less effective, he added.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 7th, 2008 at 02:50:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Abkhazians call for recognition in European Parliament - EUobserver

Abkhazia would never accept a return to Georgia and still hopes for international recognition of its independence, as well as for the EU to include it in its neighbourhood policy, representatives of the breakaway province told MEPs during a hearing on Monday (6 October) organized by the Green Party.

The Kodori gorge in Abkhazia, where Georgian troops were ousted by a massive Russian military offensive on 10 August

The host of the event, German Green MEP Cem Ozdemir, said that his group had suggested for a long time for such discussions to take place, in order to prevent the escalation of the conflict.

"You can't select your neighbours: You have to live together," he said, stressing that it is important for all parties involved in the conflict to look ahead and not to remain captive in a blame game.

With a small, green-striped Abkhaz flag set up in front of his laptop, Viacheslav Chirikba, a Western-schooled advisor to the president of Abkhazia, presented in harsh terms such as "genocide" and even "holocaust" the history of his "nation," concluding that "Georgia has lost every moral right to rule Abkhazia."

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 7th, 2008 at 02:51:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Poland to push new EU energy solidarity plan - EUobserver

Poland is planning to propose a new version of its previous government's energy solidarity pact plan, lowering the threshold for EU intervention in the event of a major supply crunch.

Under current EU rules, the bloc must react if there is a "significant" disruption of gas supplies affecting 20 percent of the EU's total consumption for eight weeks or more.

Warsaw - the previous energy solidarity pact plan fell on deaf ears in Brussels

Poland wants the solidarity mechanism to kick in if disruption affects 50 percent of any one member state's imports however, covering a period of four weeks in winter and six weeks in summer - according to plans seen by Polish daily Gazeta Wyborcza.

The proposal also calls for the EU to oblige member states to store a part of their gas resources as they do with oil, and for the union to begin funding cross-border energy infrastructure.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 7th, 2008 at 02:52:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Poker-game execution as Italy declares war on Mafia - Europe, World - The Independent

Italy's Interior Minister, Roberto Maroni, has described it as a civil war - and 18 bullets pumped into an innocent man playing cards on a Sunday morning proved him right.

Stanislao Cantelli was the uncle of two supergrasses and distantly related to another local mafia boss but he had led a blameless life. Having recently retired from his job as a technician in a mozzarella cheese factory, he was often seen pottering around the town of Casal di Principe in his battered Fiat Punto. For relaxation, he repaired to the Circolo Sociale Ricreativo, a shop converted into a social club on Via Umberto I, to play poker.

But two of Cantelli's nephews have turned state's counsel, and the evidence of one of them, Luigi Diana, was crucial in leading to the issuing of arrest warrants for 107 gangsters and the confiscation of more than €100m (£78m) worth of gang-owned property. So on Sunday, Cantelli's card game was interrupted by two men on a motorbike, one armed with an automatic pistol, who burst into the club and repeatedly fired on him. All the witnesses to the killing fled.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 7th, 2008 at 03:11:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Italy's Interior Minister, Roberto Maroni, has described it as a civil war - and 18 bullets pumped into an innocent man playing cards on a Sunday morning proved him right.

Oh, come on!

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 7th, 2008 at 03:42:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I've always seen civil war as civilians fighting civilians usually represented by rival claims to legitimacy to govern. Spain. USA. This has nothing to do with a civil war. The Casalese and the rest of the Camorra are simply reasserting their authority after the Spartacus trial that saw all of the bosses condemned to life imprisonment or heavy sentences.

La Russa, Minister of Defence, calls it a gang war. However, that implies that gangs are fighting over territory or "renegotiating" past agreements. None of the victims point to a gang war. Deaths are either a repraisal to state witnesses or just plain terrorism.

Neither of the ministers makes sense.

In a previous comment I noted that so long as there was a response by the state to the military branch of the mafias, it was fine. However, the anti-judiciary guidelines of the present regime are thrown up whenever the upper echelons are touched.

The day after, Berlusconi fustigated the Neapolitan judges for having written a chapter in their arrest warrant against the Casalesi concerning their political connections.

So all this rhetoric over "civil wars" and "gang wars" is smoke in the eyes. What's important is an effective response to criminality on all levels, such as the two close associates of Berlusconi in Campania who are running Berlusconi's garbage show despite being accused by several supergrasses of association with the Camorra. When are they going to resign?

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 07:38:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]


Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.
by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Tue Oct 7th, 2008 at 07:19:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Far-Right Austria Governor Isolates Asylum Seekers - A.P. via NYTimes.com
Far-right Gov. Joerg Haider has set up a facility in the remote mountains of southern Austria to handle asylum seekers suspected as criminals, saying they need to be isolated to protect the people in the area.

<...>

Haider is now governor of Carinthia province and his regional government set up the facility for asylum seekers, which sits in a secluded pasture in the mountains of southern Austria at an altitude of about 3,900 feet.

''With this security precaution, we are protecting the Carinthian population,'' Haider told a news conference Monday. He said the number of criminal asylum seekers was on the rise.



Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.
by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Tue Oct 7th, 2008 at 08:02:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
SPECIAL FOCUS - More Financial Crisis
by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 7th, 2008 at 02:40:40 PM EST
EU Leaders Agree to Guarantee Private Bank Deposits | Germany | Deutsche Welle | 07.10.2008
European stock markets continued to slide in volatile trade Tuesday as finance ministers from across the continent unified to urge greater measures to secure private bank deposits in the European Union.

At a regular meeting in Luxembourg, the finance ministers of the EU's 27 member states agreed in principle that their countries should each, as a minimum, guarantee private bank deposits to a level of "at least" 50,000 euros ($67,500) "for at least one year," diplomats said.

 

The minimum deposit guarantee currently stands at 20,000 euros.

 

However, individual member states are free to set higher figures, the ministers agreed, acknowledging that "many member states are determined" to raise the limit to 100,000 euros.

 

The political agreement will only become law once the EU's executive, the European Commission, makes a binding legal proposal which member states formally approve.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 7th, 2008 at 02:42:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
From the various articles on this summit, it's pretty obvious they haven't agreed on much of anything, except basically to let each other save one's domestic banks using public money.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Tue Oct 7th, 2008 at 03:30:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Spain is one of those countries that has already announced a €100k guarantee. El Pais quotes a claim that the deposit guarantee fund is sufficiently well capitalised for that limit.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 7th, 2008 at 03:41:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
From a distance it appears that Ireland leads Europe.
by paving on Tue Oct 7th, 2008 at 07:03:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Nobody else is guaranteeing all bank debt yet.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 7th, 2008 at 07:44:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Check back next week!
by paving on Tue Oct 7th, 2008 at 08:25:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Robert Shiller on the US Bailout: 'Plugging Holes in a Sinking Ship' - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International

In a SPIEGEL interview, Yale economist Robert Shiller discusses the causes and consequences of the global economic crisis. He argues there is a substantial risk of recession and that the next few years will be lean ones.

 A real estate firesale in southern California: "Right now, there are foreclosures on 10,000 homes a day in the United States. The people are being thrown out of their houses."

SPIEGEL: You predicted the end of the New Economy and that the real estate bubble in the United States would burst. What's coming next?

Shiller: I wish I could always be so prescient. But I will have to disappoint you: I do not see any new bubble developing right now.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 7th, 2008 at 02:44:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What's coming next?

Shiller: I wish I could always be so prescient. But I will have to disappoint you: I do not see any new bubble developing right now.

WTF is that for an answer?

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 7th, 2008 at 03:55:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Fairly delphic I'd say.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Oct 7th, 2008 at 05:16:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What's the opposite of a bubble?
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Oct 7th, 2008 at 06:12:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Apparently it's a crater.

"Ideas or the lack of them can cause disease." - Kurt Vonnegut
by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 03:34:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A droplet.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 03:37:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
ThatBritGuy:
What's the opposite of a bubble?

er, foam?

lotsa little ones not causing mayhem cuz they're 'too big to fail'?

"That millions of people share the same form of mental pathology does not make those people sane." Eric Fromm

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 04:57:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Foam is a lot of bubbles.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 05:08:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
yup, that's my point. better many little balloons of profitability than one great zeppelin, carrying the hopes of millions down in flames..

"That millions of people share the same form of mental pathology does not make those people sane." Eric Fromm
by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 05:53:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It won't be long before those people being "thrown out" of their houses will merely switch to renting them.  For less than the mortgage.

If you have tens of thousands of vacant, mostly newly-built homes and nobody to buy them you must rent them out to the now swelling ranks of renters.  The prices will meet, by natural "market" magic.

by paving on Tue Oct 7th, 2008 at 07:05:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Actually, what seems to happen is a high level of "attrition". Foreclosed houses remain vacant - and untended - until the banks manage to sell them, i.e. these days indefinitely. So they quickly become dilapidated. Also, the longer they stand empty (and the more vacant houses there are in any given neighborhood) the more likely they are to be plundered for copper and other valuable scrap.

I think we are going to see at least a significant level of destruction of excess supply.

"Ideas or the lack of them can cause disease." - Kurt Vonnegut

by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 03:38:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Icesave customers left praying Iceland has money to pay them back - Telegraph
Almost 300,000 British savers with the popular internet bank Icesave face a fight to recover their cash after it collapsed into receivership yesterday following the economic turmoil in Iceland

Icesave is owned by Landsbanki, Iceland's second largest bank, which has been swept up in the financial chaos that has engulfed the tiny Arctic country. It collapsed on Tuesday morning and is now being run by the Icelandic Financial Services Authority.

The UK authorities said that the estimated 275,000 British customers with the bank would - in the first instance - have to rely on the Icelandic Compensation Scheme, which promises to pay up to €20,887 (£16,240), to recover their cash.

"Icesave is not a British bank. We are obliged to top up the compensation to £50,000, but only above £16,000," said a spokesman for the British Financial Services Compensation Scheme.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 7th, 2008 at 02:47:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"Icesave is not a British bank. We are obliged to top up the compensation to £50,000, but only above £16,000," said a spokesman for the British Financial Services Compensation Scheme.

This is consistent with what Icesave claims on its website:

If we cannot pay any amount we owe you on your savings accounts, you will be able to claim compensation. The maximum compensation is limited to 100% of the first £35,000 (rising to £50,000 with effect from 7 October 2008) of your total deposits held with us (the same as every FSA regulated bank and building society in the UK). In the unlikely event of a claim.

The compensation itself is provided by two schemes (sometimes referred to as a passport scheme) - the end result being that the total amount protected is the same as if your savings were only protected by the UK Financial Services Compensation Scheme. The protection works as follows:

  • The first level of protection is provided under the Icelandic Depositors' and Investors' Guarantee Fund (www.tryggingarsjodur.is). The maximum protection under this scheme is 100% of the first €20,887 (or the sterling equivalent) of your total deposits held with us.
  • The second level of protection is provided by the UK Financial Services Compensation Scheme (www.fscs.org.uk). This scheme tops-up your protection so that the protection under both schemes, is equal to 100% of the first £35,000 (rising to £50,000 with effect from 7 October 2008) of your total deposits held with us.
  • Under EU law compensation for any losses incurred due to the failure of a bank should generally be paid within three months - regardless of whether it is through a passport scheme or the UK Financial Services Compensation Scheme.
If you're an Icebank customer you should not have to read this in the Torygraph. It's an internet bank. You would hope the customers would know how to navigate the website...

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 7th, 2008 at 03:54:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
to the Russian loans? Were they actually put in place?

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Tue Oct 7th, 2008 at 04:09:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
According to Solveig
...later in the afternoon, Iceland admitted that they had 'exaggerated' when they announced a deal with the Russians.  And the Russians say there is no deal, and that no negotiations have taken place...all according to Aftenposten...
This sent me straight into tinfoil territory, I have to admit.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 7th, 2008 at 04:15:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Looks like Iceland was a bit precipitous in its announcement...

"This is nothing compared to how Putin rigged Eurovision."
by poemless on Tue Oct 7th, 2008 at 04:18:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Whomever is running Iceland right now had better be preparing their escape capsules.
by paving on Tue Oct 7th, 2008 at 07:06:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
icecapes, obviously!

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 04:26:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
IMF predicts $1.4 trillion in losses from crisis - International Herald Tribune

WASHINGTON: The International Monetary Fund on Tuesday increased its estimate of global losses from the financial meltdown to $1.4 trillion and warned that the world's economic downturn was deepening.

"Declared losses on U.S. loans and securitized assets are likely to increase further to about $1.4 trillion," the IMF said, increasing the loss estimate from $945 billion in April and slightly up from $1.3 trillion it cited last month.

In its quarterly assessment of global capital markets, the IMF said global economic activity is slowing down as growth in advanced economies decelerates and emerging economies start to lose momentum.

"Despite better-than-expected performance early this year, rising financial turmoil has led to a downgrade in the IMF's baseline forecast for global economic growth in 2008-09," it said.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 7th, 2008 at 02:53:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Most of that money never existed outside of the books of banks that skirted banking regulations via off-balance sheet shunting of loans in order to create more money than their central banks wanted.

When other people create money without authorisation it's called counterfeiting. In this case, when that money is destroyed the IMF calls it "losses".


A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 7th, 2008 at 03:49:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Because the imaginary money did enrich some before the crash, and did make it possible to make transfers of real welath from one set of pockets to another.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Tue Oct 7th, 2008 at 04:07:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
When you use counterfeit money someone, somewhere, eventually suffers "losses" because they're found to be holding toy money.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 7th, 2008 at 04:12:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And in this case, that would mostly be us.
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Oct 7th, 2008 at 06:13:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, maybe if you are reasonably well off.  As it turns out, despite the beliefs of most "middle class" types (in the United States at least), we really have nothing to lose anyhow.
by paving on Tue Oct 7th, 2008 at 07:07:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Has there been any talk of actual laws that may have been broken that would allow us to imprison these people and take back what they took?

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.
by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Tue Oct 7th, 2008 at 07:31:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh sure.  The problem is there is no police willing to take action.  It does appear that Dick Fuld is the token patsy who will ultimately take some heat for this.  Guaranteed that no action occurs before Jan. 20, 2009 in this arena and possible Bush pardons (shudder) may shelter even more.
by paving on Tue Oct 7th, 2008 at 08:27:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's getting in the air now:

Investigating the Subprime Scandal | WBUR and NPR's On Point with Tom Ashbrook

Investigative reporter Danny Schechter has never been quiet about the slick ways of Wall Street and American finance. He won Emmys and was out front on the 1980s S&L crisis.

Now, he's on fire with the story of American and global financial market meltdown and the machinations that preceded it. The "largest robbery in American history," he calls it. "Not a bank heist, but a heist by banks."

Or, as the title of his new book has it, "Plunder."

And he raises this question: "Where are the prosecutors?"

Let's see if it comes to anything.

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.

by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 02:37:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
marco:
"Not a bank heist, but a heist by banks.

Or as the wise man said:

"What is the robbing of a bank compared to the founding of a bank?"

"Ideas or the lack of them can cause disease." - Kurt Vonnegut

by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 03:43:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Europe seeks unified policy on bank crisis - International Herald Tribune

LUXEMBOURG: European Union finance ministers gathered here on Tuesday to seek elusive common ground to buttress the continent's banking system in the face of the financial crisis, raising the minimum level of guarantees for bank deposits to €50,000.

At a news conference in Luxembourg, Christine Lagarde, the French finance minister, said, "We agreed to raise the minimum guarantee to €50,000 while noting that many member states were determined to raise this to €100,000."

"One country on its own can't solve the problem," the Irish finance minister Brian Lenihan said, according to Reuters. Lenihan said the planned increase in guarantee levels was on the agenda. "That is a matter that is under consideration."

Despite proposals from France and Italy, the European Union has eschewed any common approach to the crisis, mainly because Germany has balked, afraid of being burdened with the costs of rescuing non-German banks.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 7th, 2008 at 02:54:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Banks set to agree £50bn package - Jeremy Warner, Business Comment - The Independent
Exclusive: Jeremy Warner on how a dramatic meeting in Downing Street is likely to lead to £50bn recapitalisation package - and why it may not be enough.

UK banks are set to agree a £50bn injection of taypayers' money under a bold plan to resolve the crisis in credit markets. Banking chiefs were this evening due to meet the Prime Minister to discuss the proposals, scheduled to be announced tomorrow morning, but subject to seeing the detail, are understood to have already agreed to be supportive. The plan could mean substantial dilution for some shareholders.

Sir Fred Goodwin's top bullet point in his slide presentation to the Merrill Lynch banking conference in London this morning was: "The outlook is subdued". Even by the notoriously phlegmatic standards of the Royal Bank of Scotland chief executive, this was something of an understatement. In fact the outlook is truly dire, as one glance at Sir Fred's plummeting share price reveals - at the close it was down by nearly 40 per cent to a fifteen year low of less than a pound. RBS was not alone. Halifax Bank of Scotland shares were down by a similar order of magnitude.

If there wasn't already a retail and wholesale run on these banks, there would have been by the time everyone had clocked the meltdown in share prices. Quite who was responsible for this latest, calamitous collapse in confidence scarcely seems to matter any more. Was it cack-handed briefing by the Treasury, or merely confidence sapping guesswork and speculation? Certainly it conforms to the Treasury's inept handling of this crisis from the start, where kite-flying and leaks over the Government's response have only succeeded in making a bad situation infinitely worse.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 7th, 2008 at 03:12:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
[Jerome's WEEEEEE™ Technology]

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Tue Oct 7th, 2008 at 03:30:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
((*wheee)) without the asterisk.

[Drew's WHEEEEE™ Technology]


A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 7th, 2008 at 03:46:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I want one without the "h" too!

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Tue Oct 7th, 2008 at 04:08:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And 4 e's instead of 3: [Jerome's WEEEEEE™ Technology]

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 7th, 2008 at 04:11:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
[Jerome's WEEEEEE™ Technology]

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Tue Oct 7th, 2008 at 05:01:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think we will soon need an update of the New User Guide for macros. I know I won't be able to keep track.

"The womb that spawned that thing is fertile yet"
by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 03:21:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The FT now publishes Op-Eds explicitly calling for the nationalisation not jut of banking, but of vast swathes of industry...


We are entering a period of financial socialism, by which I mean that the government is buying enterprises which cannot survive in the free market - Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the $700bn credit bailout in the US, Northern Rock and Bradford and Bingley in the UK. Most observers look at such financial socialism as an emergency measure - and a bad thing. To me it is a good thing; indeed, public ownership needs to be extended from the financial sector to the manufacturing and service sectors.

The reason for this is that Europe and the US have many industries and service businesses which cannot survive in the global economy.

The rationales are to avoid the dictature of short term returns and  promote long term investment.

[Jerome's WEEEEEE™ Technology]

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Tue Oct 7th, 2008 at 05:11:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
An alternative is to stop the free international flow of capital. That would make some of those industries viable again.

But national industrial policy works for me.

Will the EU come up with an EU-wide fiscal and industrial policy to balance the EMU?

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 7th, 2008 at 05:14:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This sort of thing would only be published in the radical press up to a month ago. Has the FT ever published these sort of clarion calls for nationalizing industry in living memory?

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake
by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Tue Oct 7th, 2008 at 07:43:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Living memory? What's that? <scratches head>

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 03:56:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Bloomberg.com: U.K. to Inject About $87 Billion in Country's Banks
Prime Minister Gordon Brown's government will invest about 50 billion pounds ($87 billion) in an unprecedented step to prevent a collapse of the U.K. banking system.

As part of the plan, the government will buy preference shares, and the Bank of England will make at least 200 billion pounds available for banks to borrow under the so-called special liquidity plan, the Treasury said in a Regulatory News Service statement today. The government will also provide a guarantee of about 250 billion pounds to help refinance debt.

The steps to partially nationalize the banking industry provide ``the necessary building blocks to allow banks to return to their basic function of providing cash and investment for families and businesses,'' Chancellor of the Exchequer Alistair Darling said in a statement.



"Ne te courbe que pour aimer..." René Char
by Melanchthon on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 03:20:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Preventive bail-out for first-rate mortgages.

My translation... roughly

"Governemnt announces the creation of a fund at the treasury of 30 billion euros to buy "maximum quality" (you have to love the spanish press) actives of financial institution so as to facilitate credit to companies and citizens so as to activate the economy."  It is a temporal measure that we can carry on given our low levels of public debt" explained Zapatero, who was very clear that teh treasury will not accept any "toxic  paper" because there is no solvency problem but to eb sure that the credit market works properly."

The news reprot explains the "quality assets" are mortgages and other corporations credits of small and medium companies which the bank can join creating a fund which will be externally rated by the typcal monsters in the busniess of rating...

My reading is... a preventive bail-out and the government becoming a credit suppliers....so that the Spanish banks are guaranteed in an international meltdown event... and just to make sure that they do not take any risk from now on... (so they can use the money they probably earn to buy foreign assets?)

Is my reading correct?

http://www.lavanguardia.es/lv24h/20081007/53556083824.html

"El gobierno anuncia hoy el fondo con cargo al Tesoro de 30.000 millones de euros para comprar activos "de máxima calidad" de las entidades financieras y con ello facilitar el crédito a empresas y ciudadanos, con el fin de dinamizar la economía. "Se trata de un gran préstamo temporal y lo podemos realizar porque tenemos una deuda (pública) en unos niveles muy razonables", recalcó Zapatero, quien dejó claro que el Tesoro no asumirá "activos tóxicos", porque el objetivo no es resolver un problema de solvencia de las entidades financieras, sino propiciar el buen funcionamiento del mercado crediticio.

El fondo estará vigente hasta que los mercados recuperen su funcionamiento normal y a podrán acceder todas las entidades financieras residentes en España, cuando los activos que se refinancien sean españoles. Entres dichos activos, según fuentes del Ejecutivo, podrá haber desde préstamos hipotecarios hasta créditos a pequeñas y medianas empresas, que las entidades financieras agruparán en fondos de titulización que serán valorados por agencias de calificación crediticia.

Para comprar los activos de "máxima calidad", el Tesoro tendrá que emitir deuda del Estado que colocará al mejor precio entre inversores mediante una subasta. Si el fondo llegase hasta 50.000 millones de euros, la deuda del Estado se incrementaría en 5 puntos hasta llegar al 41% del PIB, aún lejos de la media europea, añadieron las fuentes. El objetivo del fondo, insistió Zapatero, es "prevenir riesgos" e "inyectar financiación en el mercado", ya que en estos momentos consideró que es la falta de crédito la que paraliza la actividad."

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Tue Oct 7th, 2008 at 04:22:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Can you make it a bilingual diary and I'll edit it as we did here?

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 7th, 2008 at 04:24:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
FT.com / Markets / Asia-Pacific - Asia sinks for fifth day as fear grips market
Asia-Pacific stock markets had a grim morning, with Japan losing more than seven per cent and Hong Kong nearly six per cent to overtake the S&P 500's 5.7 per cent drop on Wall Street overnight. Fears deepened that more financial institutions would fail after the International Monetary Fund said banks may need $675bn of fresh capital. Trading in Indonesia was suspended as shares fell more than 10 per cent for the second time this week.

The MSCI Asia Pacific index was 3.7 per cent lower at 95.07 by late morning in Tokyo, to come to close to its lowest levels since April 2005. Oil continued to decline, dropping to $89.10 a barrel in Singapore.



"Ne te courbe que pour aimer..." René Char
by Melanchthon on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 03:23:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Man Kills His Family and Himself Over Market - NYTimes.com

LOS ANGELES -- In a suicide note, Karthik Rajaram wrote that he had considered killing only himself because of his financial troubles, but decided to take his family with him.< Damian Dovarganes/Associated Press

The bodies of Karthik Rajaram and five family members were found in their Los Angeles home.

Mr. Rajaram, 45, shot his wife, three sons and mother-in-law in their bedrooms over the weekend, the police said, then shot himself. The police found him on Monday on the floor of a bedroom his youngest sons shared, close to their bodies.

On Tuesday, friends and colleagues said they were stunned to learn of the killings and unaware of the family's financial problems. The police said that in one of his two suicide notes, Mr. Rajaram said he was "broke," having lost most of his assets in the plummeting stock market. The police said he had been planning the killings for weeks

The bodies of Karthik Rajaram and five family members were found in their Los Angeles home.



"Ideas or the lack of them can cause disease." - Kurt Vonnegut
by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 04:03:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
He had a McMansion and two SUVs. Everything was normal!

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 04:29:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
La Bourse de Paris était en chute libre mercredi matin, le CAC 40 dégringolant de 8,18% et retombant à son plus bas niveau depuis décembre 2003, dans un marché affolé par la poursuite de la crise financière et ses répercussions sur l'économie.

Paris hitting five year low, losing 8.18% in the first hour of trading, amid news of Dexia being downgraded and losing 20%...

[Drew's WHEEEEE™ Technology]

Auferre, trucidare, rapere, falsis nominibus imperium; atque, ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 04:21:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
[Jerome's WEEEEEE™ Technology]

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 06:26:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
WORLD
by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 7th, 2008 at 02:41:01 PM EST
Israel to press Russia not to sell air defences to Iran - Telegraph
The Israeli prime minister will press Russian President Dmitry Medvedev not to sell anti-aircraft defences to Iran amid growing speculation the Jewish state will bomb Iran's nuclear facilities.

Ehud Olmert, on his final foreign trip as prime minister before a new coalition government is confirmed, flew to Moscow to urge Mr Medvedev not to sell weapons to "irresponsible elements".

It is feared Israel will see the proposed sale of a sophisticated version of the S-300 surface-to-air missile system as a reason to expedite plans for an attack on Iran.

"We will remind them again of matters that trouble us greatly," Mr Olmert said.

As East-West relations have deteriorated in the aftermath of Russia's brief war with Georgia in August, fears have mounted that Moscow could choose to goad Washington by selling Iran a version of the S-300.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 7th, 2008 at 02:48:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Israel to Russia:  "Please don't sell advanced surface-to-air missiles to Iran so we can bomb them anytime we feel like it."

Going to take a couple of hours to wrap my mind around that one.

Och nu den svenska kocken bakar en Alaskan älg jägare. Bonk! Bonk! Bonk!

by ATinNM on Tue Oct 7th, 2008 at 04:21:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
<
If Russia sells arms it's "goading". If the West sells arms, it's just doing business. The Israelis are surely not naive enough to expect that the Russians will cooperate without getting something in return (is reducing support for the Georgian army a possibility?)
by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Tue Oct 7th, 2008 at 04:55:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]