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Saturday Open Thread

by Fran
Sat Jan 10th, 2009 at 11:10:10 AM EST

How about a warm and cozy Thread? Well, anyway... it is Open!

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Saturday Open Thread | 61 comments (61 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: Saturday Open Thread (4.00 / 3)

Still cold, and the highs in minus temperaturs, like today, despite sunshine it only warmed up to -3°C. Thpugh it is supposed to warm up over the coming days.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Jan 10th, 2009 at 11:11:50 AM EST

Re: Saturday Open Thread (4.00 / 2)

It is 4°C here today but the wind is cold. I've been trying out my new 600 down jacket and it does the job really well in keeping me warm.

I went out wandering through some of our industrial estates. Grim and the light was poor so I didn't get any good shots. I know the area better now though. Time for a cup of tea and to hope my fingers warm up soon.

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Sat Jan 10th, 2009 at 11:25:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 1)

Wild and wet up here in Linlithgow today with North Westerly gales now backing South West and temperatures rising towards 10 to 12°C apparently.

This recent long, calm, fairly sunny, and quite cold (nothing like as cold as Southern England has had, strange to say) spell has been the first I have experienced, and this is my fourth winter up here now.

Modern conservatives engage in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy: the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.Galbraith

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Sat Jan 10th, 2009 at 01:46:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Saturday Open Thread (4.00 / 3)

Was out sledding (well, inner-tubing) this afternoon with my brother-in-law, his child and some of their neighbors. Cold but sunny!

"Ideas or the lack of them can cause disease." - Kurt Vonnegut

by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Sat Jan 10th, 2009 at 11:38:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 1)

That sounds like fun!

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Sat Jan 10th, 2009 at 12:04:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 1)

Oh yeah!

"Ideas or the lack of them can cause disease." - Kurt Vonnegut

by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Sat Jan 10th, 2009 at 12:39:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 1)

I agree with In Wales, it sounds like fun, however, what is inner-tubing. I assume as you did this with children it does not involve warming the inner tubes with some wishkey or something similar. :-)

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Jan 10th, 2009 at 12:29:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Saturday Open Thread (4.00 / 2)

No, unfortunately :).

Inflated inner tubes of car or (even better for lots of people) truck tires go down a snow-covered hill quite rapidly, once the snow is a little packed.

Wheeee!

"Ideas or the lack of them can cause disease." - Kurt Vonnegut

by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Sat Jan 10th, 2009 at 12:39:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Saturday Open Thread (4.00 / 3)

We had a bit of snow here in Colorado yesterday, but it's sunny and clear this morning with a predicted high in the 5 to 8 C range... I think I will go on a walk.

by asdf on Sat Jan 10th, 2009 at 11:47:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 1)

It's been a weird winter here so far. Cold but almost no snow. :( A lot of rain, though, which is not fun, as the drainage in my neighborhood is teh suck.

WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Sat Jan 10th, 2009 at 02:05:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 1)

It's a bit warmer than yesterday, but cos the air is damper, it actually feels much colder.

I've been at the "France show 2009". I've enjoyed these a lot more in the past cos I was actually looking at property, so could happily spend afew hours going around the estate agents and then retire to the wine stalls for "tasting". Now I've got no money and I'm not drinking, so those two planks of enjoyment were taken away.

I got some food, but it was horrendously expensive.

Still, it got me out of the house for a few hours.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Sat Jan 10th, 2009 at 04:12:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 1)

And it was also the most walking i've done for weeks. I'm really tired. I need more exercise.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Sat Jan 10th, 2009 at 04:24:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 1)

Santa Ana winds in Southern California. The next two days are supposed to be in the low 80s (F)/mid-to-upper 20s (C) downtown, which is by the coast. That may sound wonderful to those of you near freezing, but when ya live in a boxy, southwest-corner apartment with no air conditioning or ceiling fan....

by lychee on Sat Jan 10th, 2009 at 09:24:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Man, xkcd is good! (4.00 / 4)

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Sat Jan 10th, 2009 at 12:02:05 PM EST

Jobs' health problems are funny? (4.00 / 2)

Like a boxer´s flattened face, I find it violent and cruel.

I did have a laugh talking with a regular bus driver about this new-rich town:

"...It´s all like a ghost town and you don´t see anybody in the streets, .... until 8 p.m., then they all come out to Europa Ave. (a popular restaurants and bars area): Just like vampires and prostitutes!"

She´s probably an underemployed sociologist.

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. --Charu Saxena.

by metavision on Sat Jan 10th, 2009 at 12:34:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Isn't it insulting (4.00 / 2)

to use "prostitute" as a derogatory word?

As to Jobs, he has made his personae core to the business model of Apple, and he, the company and outside analysts all agree that his health is a relavant business topic. So it's fair game to comment on it, I think.

And yes, I find the joke very witty and brilliant.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Sat Jan 10th, 2009 at 02:10:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Isn't it insulting (none / 1)

"to use "prostitute" as a derogatory word?"

It wasn't used in a derogatory way, just a reference to their usual working hours.

"As to Jobs, he has made his personae core to the business model of Apple," - with some justification; he has quite a track record and his obvious devotion to quality and good design commendable.

"and he, the company and outside analysts all agree that his health is a relavant business topic. So it's fair game to comment on it, I think."

Yes, but he reluctantly accepts it and his recent brief letter was an attempt to end speculation:

I have given more than my all to Apple for the past 11 years now. I will be the first one to step up and tell our Board of Directors if I can no longer continue to fulfill my duties as Apple's CEO. I hope the Apple community will support me in my recovery and know that I will always put what is best for Apple first.
So now I've said more than I wanted to say, and all that I am going to say, about this.
http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2009/01/05sjletter.html

but I agree - it's fair game; some humour is very black, and necessarily so in some cases, where it's a means of coping with some grim stuff, as in the military, police, medicine, etc. However:

"And yes, I find the joke very witty and brilliant."

Seems over-the-top, to me it's hardly "brilliant", not even "very witty", it's just rather obvious sarcasm - but if you enjoyed it ... :-)

His commencement speech is well worth a look:

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice. Blog - Nice Experience

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Sat Jan 10th, 2009 at 05:04:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Maybe I should have said (none / 0)

´vampires, johns, janes and prostitutes´, but I wouldn´t be quoting. Can you think of a more respectful word that applies to both genders?

As to Jobs, there is a very clear separation between his public ´value´ for the business and his private life suffering, which ´analysts´ don´t seem able to respect, but, sadly, his last news photo was nothing to laugh about.

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. --Charu Saxena.

by metavision on Sat Jan 10th, 2009 at 06:46:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Man, xkcd is good! (4.00 / 2)

That is SO BAD.

^{but I'm laughing, I really shouldn't, but I am... I'm sorry...}

by Plutonium Page (page dot vlinders at gmail dot com) on Sat Jan 10th, 2009 at 01:53:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Saturday Open Thread (4.00 / 3)

Bye-bye bananas!

Huffington Post | Why Bananas are a Parable For Our Times

Below the headlines about rocketing food prices and rocking governments, there lays a largely unnoticed fact: bananas are dying. The foodstuff, more heavily consumed even than rice or potatoes, has its own form of cancer. It is a fungus called Panama Disease, and it turns bananas brick-red and inedible.
There is no cure. They all die as it spreads, and it spreads quickly. Soon - in five, 10 or 30 years - the yellow creamy fruit as we know it will not exist. The story of how the banana rose and fell can be seen a strange parable about the corporations that increasingly dominate the world - and where they are leading us.

Madness takes its toll. Have exact change ready

by ATinNM on Sat Jan 10th, 2009 at 01:34:50 PM EST

Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0)

Surely there must be seed banks somewhere that can store healthy seeds and after the banana apocalypse, then can be replanted in a brave new world?

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Sat Jan 10th, 2009 at 01:38:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Saturday Open Thread (4.00 / 2)

Bringing my years of experience of dynamic systems to the analysis and adding Herself (Ph.d., Genetics) to the investigatory team ...

Beats me.

:-)

If the cancer attacks something that is a commonality - what makes a banana a banana instead of a kumquat - we're screwed.

If genetic diversity provides protection multi-cultivar in a diverse agronomic environment could provide a way forward.

But as I said, I don't know.

Madness takes its toll. Have exact change ready

by ATinNM on Sat Jan 10th, 2009 at 01:45:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Saturday Open Thread (4.00 / 4)

Afew had a diary on this a while back, also off a Johann Hari piece. Was a good thread, too.

European Tribune - Peak Bananas?

So Gaia wins? Not so simple. As Hari tells us Until 150 [years] ago, a vast array of bananas grew in the world's jungles and they were invariably consumed nearby. Some were sweet; some were sour. They were green or purple or yellow. That biodiversity is now under threat because the monoculture of the marketable sweet yellow banana has provided for the proliferation of an unstoppable pathogen. Some varieties will resist, others will not. And foodwise, 85% of the world's banana production is locally consumed. The banana is also allied to the plantain, a staple in a number of parts of the world, also susceptible to Panama Disease.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Sat Jan 10th, 2009 at 01:59:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Saturday Open Thread (4.00 / 2)

Nigeria grows a green small variety, that are apparently, the best tasting banana on the face of theplanet. but they can't apparently sell them because nobody will buy bananas that wont turn yellow.

Give a politician an inch, and he'll think he's a ruler

by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Sat Jan 10th, 2009 at 06:00:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 1)

Two more links from that thread:

DJNozem (whozat?) on bad Europeans who don't understand they need GMO monocultures so as to go on getting that GREAT creamy-smooth sweet yellow flavor experience.

By Dan Koeppel, author of a book on the question, an NYT piece: Yes, We Have No Bananas.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Jan 11th, 2009 at 04:04:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 1)

Bananas don't propagate from seeds though, do they? Isn't it all about cuttings?

Modern conservatives engage in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy: the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.Galbraith

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Sat Jan 10th, 2009 at 01:49:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0)

I have no idea but I thought there were seeds down the middle of bananas. Wiki has answers.

Banana - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In cultivated varieties, the seeds have degenerated nearly to non-existence; their remnants are tiny black specks in the interior of the fruit.

and

Banana - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

While the original bananas contained rather large seeds, triploid (and thus seedless) cultivars have been selected for human consumption. These are propagated asexually from offshoots of the plant. The plant is allowed to produce 2 shoots at a time; a larger one for fruiting immediately and a smaller "sucker" or "follower" that will produce fruit in 6-8 months time. The life of a banana plantation is 25 years or longer, during which time the individual stools or planting sites may move slightly from their original positions as lateral rhizome formation dictates.
Cultivated bananas are parthenocarpic, which makes them sterile and unable to produce viable seeds. Lacking seeds, another form of propagation is required. This normally involves removing and transplanting part of the underground stem (called a corm).

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Sat Jan 10th, 2009 at 01:57:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 1)

This is just plain weird:

Bananas are not a tree but an herb.

An herb? Huh? That's unexpected. By me. (a total ignoramus re: Bananas)

[Is there a Banana Maven in the house?]

Madness takes its toll. Have exact change ready

by ATinNM on Sat Jan 10th, 2009 at 02:15:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 1)

Wouldn't have guessed "herb" either. I had a banana tree in my back yard growing up. That's the closest I can come to being an expert.

WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Sat Jan 10th, 2009 at 02:23:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Saturday Open Thread (4.00 / 2)

An herb is any non-woody plant.

I just assumed from the common use of "banana tree" to describe it the banana plant was ... a tree. ;-)

[Note of epistemological clarity: will entire Universe kindly quit mucking around with the sloppy use of adjectives and nouns? It's very confusing. KTHXBAI]

Madness takes its toll. Have exact change ready

by ATinNM on Sat Jan 10th, 2009 at 02:29:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Saturday Open Thread (4.00 / 2)

Does that mean you can smoke them...?

Modern conservatives engage in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy: the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.Galbraith

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Sat Jan 10th, 2009 at 06:43:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Saturday Open Thread (4.00 / 5)

Reminds me of a kid calling into a youth advice radio show fifteen years ago : "There's acid in the lemon juice I just drank ! Will I get hallucinations ?!?"

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Sat Jan 10th, 2009 at 08:11:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 1)

I remember smoking dried banana skins. The word was that they got you high, that was what "Mellow Yellow" meant.

LOL.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Jan 11th, 2009 at 04:10:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 1)

That's totally bananas....

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Sun Jan 11th, 2009 at 04:26:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0)

My mate and I agreed that all we got out of it was a vague headache.

But we didn't smoke a whole bunch.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Jan 11th, 2009 at 04:48:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0)

I have a banana leaf cigar from Thailand loitering in the flat somewhere.

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Sun Jan 11th, 2009 at 06:10:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 1)

You've smoked all the other things you brought back from Thailand and now you're down to just the banana leaf cigar?

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Sun Jan 11th, 2009 at 06:16:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0)

That would be it!

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Sun Jan 11th, 2009 at 06:35:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

This is not a recent phenomenon... (none / 1)

See this.

"Beware of the man who does not talk, and the dog that does not bark." Cheyenne

by maracatu on Sun Jan 11th, 2009 at 11:48:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Interesting info (4.00 / 3)

...in here: Istanbul's ancient past unearthed

"Neolithic culture changed as it moved west. Not all of what we call the 'Neolithic package' was transferred," explains Professor Mehmet Ozdogan of Istanbul University.
"Domesticated animals and some of the cereal crops came, but mud brick became wooden architecture, settlements were re-organised. The transformation is important to understand the Neolithic culture in Europe. Every new site adds data to the picture."

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Sat Jan 10th, 2009 at 01:48:45 PM EST

Re: Interesting info (none / 0)

given that mud houses are actually thermally useful, I guess it was the damp of europe that did for their utility.

Yet, once thatch was invented with large eaves, mud came back in.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Sat Jan 10th, 2009 at 04:21:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Saturday Open Thread (4.00 / 2)

This is pretty funny:

Stupidest Party AliveTM
People who have endorsed the Republican House caucus's objections to the stimulus package:
Donald Luskin, Chief Investment Officer, Trend Macrolytics LLC, Stupidest Man Alive EmeritusTM: "Government spending does not create incentives for labor, innovation and investment. Instead of spending $1 trillion in Washington, let Washington forgive $1 trillion in tax revenues to create incentives for millions of individuals and firms to get the economy going again, one dollar at a time."
People who have not endorsed the Republican House caucus's objections to the stimulus package:
Eddie Lazear, Chair, President's Council of Economic Advisers (George W. Bush)
Matthew Slaughter, Member, President's Council of Economic Advisers (George W. Bush)
Katherine Baicker, Member, President's Council of Economic Advisers (George W. Bush)
Ben Bernanke, Chair, President's Council of Economic Advisers (George W. Bush)
Harvey Rosen, Chair, President's Council of Economic Advisers (George W. Bush)
Kristen Forbes, Member, President's Council of Economic Advisers (George W. Bush)
N. Gregory Mankiw, Chair, President's Council of Economic Advisers (George W. Bush)
Randall Kroszner, Member, President's Council of Economic Advisers (George W. Bush)
Mark McClellan, Member, President's Council of Economic Advisers (George W. Bush)
R. Glenn Hubbard, Chair, President's Council of Economic Advisers (George W. Bush)
Paul Wonnacott, Member, President's Council of Economic Advisers (George H. W. Bush)
Richard Schmalensee, Member, President's Council of Economic Advisers (George H. W. Bush)
John Taylor, Member, President's Council of Economic Advisers (George H. W. Bush)
Michael Boskin, Chair, President's Council of Economic Advisers (George H. W. Bush)
Michael Mussa, Member, President's Council of Economic Advisers (Ronald Reagan)
Thomas Moore, Member, President's Council of Economic n SpriyAdvisers (Ronald Reagan)
Beryl Sprinkel, Chair, President's Council of Economic Advisers (Ronald Reagan)
William Poole, Member, President's Council of Economic Advisers (Ronald Reagan)
Martin Feldstein, Chair, President's Council of Economic Advisers (Ronald Reagan)
Jerry Jordan, Member, President's Council of Economic Advisers (Ronald Reagan)
William Niskanen, Member, President's Council of Economic Advisers (Ronald Reagan)
Murray Weidenbaum, Chair, President's Council of Economic Advisers (Ronald Reagan)
Burton Malkiel, Member, President's Council of Economic Advisers (Gerald Ford)
Paul MacAvoy, Member, President's Council of Economic Advisers (Gerald Ford)
Alan Greenspan, Chair, President's Council of Economic Advisers (Gerald Ford)
Gary Seevers, Member, President's Council of Economic Advisers (Gerald Ford)
Marina von Neumann Whitman, Member, President's Council of Economic Advisers (Richard Nixon)
Paul McCracken, Member, President's Council of Economic Advisers (Richard Nixon)
In fact, no current or former member of the President's Council of Economic Advisers--Democrat or Republican, living or dead, sane or insane--has signed up for the Republican House caucus's list of economists opposed to the stimulus package. None. Zero. Nada. Sifr. Efes. Wala sero. Kosong sifar. 'Ole. Knin. Pujyam. Mann. Dim. Nocht. Null. Meden. Hitotsu. Sifuri. Ling. Sunya. Mwac. Ataqan. Saquui. Hun. Illaq. Wanzi. Wanzi. Pagh. Na. Uqua.
Nobody.
That should tell you something about today's Republican Party.

Their own people don't even support their bullshit anymore.

WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Sat Jan 10th, 2009 at 02:43:57 PM EST

Re: Saturday Open Thread (4.00 / 4)

Drew - this is pretty interesting, in case you didn't see it already:

Grasping Reality: DeLong: What Has Happened to Milton Friedman's Chicago School? DRAFT

http://www.scribd.com/doc/9874597/null

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Sat Jan 10th, 2009 at 03:43:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0)

I thought it would be. Have it bookmarked but haven't had a chance to read it yet.

WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Sat Jan 10th, 2009 at 05:30:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 1)

What looks to be one of his main concluding points.

The underlying logic being adopted by the Marx-Hoover-Hayek axis isrelatively simple. It is:
*
The market's price signals are right.
*
The market's price signals are saying that the economy has "toomuch" capital.
*
Something must have gone wrong in the past to create this "toomuch" capital.For Marx the "something" is increasing returns to scale as the fact thatthe biggest producers are the most efficient leads all businesses toexpand even though demand will then allow only a few to survive; forHayek it is usually fractional-reserve banking and the government'sprinting press backed up by the legal restrictions that support fiat moneythat creates excessive credit and the fiction that the economy can have alarger-than-sustainable capital stock; for Hoover and Mellon it is the sinsof feckless and un-Calvinist speculators who want to get something fornothing. For all there is nothing--within the current mode of productionat least--that can be done except to suffer until the economy's capitalstock has once again fallen back to its sustainable value.

Later, he goes on to disagree with the notion that too much capital (by which I wonder if he means speculative debt and fake money) has been created.

by Zwackus on Sat Jan 10th, 2009 at 10:41:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Saturday Open Thread (none / 0)

Extremely interesting. I lean towards blaming globalisation of the capital markets. This has given too much power to capital allocation. A tobin tax would be a good solution to reduce the excessive efficiency of this 'side' of the economy.

There should also be a few other regulative approaches that curtail tax offshoring. Like no longer taxing companies where they report profits, but rather where they get revenues.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Sun Jan 11th, 2009 at 09:12:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

briefly: (4.00 / 2)

I've had the stomach flu. blech.

Saw Jerome on France 24 here in Chicago. Cool!

We're having a(nother) blizzard. Snowiest winter in Chicago history.

Blago held a presser and quoted the poem my sig line is taken from. Dammit! Gah! Why?! now I either have to change my sig or have newfound respect for the Gov. Want to do neither. I'll just pretend it never happened.

Hope you're all well!

Ciao

Come, my friends, 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world.

by poemless on Sat Jan 10th, 2009 at 03:03:22 PM EST

Re: briefly: (none / 0)

Ach, schnell Gütebesserung, get well quickly.

Skennah Kowa

by Crazy Horse on Sat Jan 10th, 2009 at 03:22:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: briefly: (none / 0)

My sympathy, that's tough. Get well soon.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Sat Jan 10th, 2009 at 04:08:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Saturday Open Thread (4.00 / 2)

The New Yorker: ´Cheat, Pray, Love´
http://www.newyorker.com/talk/financial/2009/01/12/090112ta_talk_surowiecki

In David Mamet's movie "House of Games," the grifter played by Joe Mantegna explains to a former mark, "It's called a confidence game. Why? Because you give me your confidence? No. Because I give you mine." So the bankers gave us their confidence, in the form of mortgages and other forms of credit, and we gave them ours. This culture of credulity did plenty of damage to the economy, but now it has given way to something even more corrosive; namely, endemic mistrust. Because if there's one thing worse than too much confidence it's not enough. Fraud impoverishes a few; fear impoverishes the many. As long as mistrust prevails, people will keeping pulling money out of the system--sometimes even at gunpoint.

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. --Charu Saxena.

by metavision on Sat Jan 10th, 2009 at 07:19:39 PM EST

That's an important insight (none / 0)

fear is what is leading to today's brutal crunch.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Sun Jan 11th, 2009 at 08:42:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Some speculation (none / 0)

I'm wondering how that compares to the Brad De Long piece linked to by metatone. We've had a period of wildly excessive capital accumulation, so a decent amount of capital destruction may be called for.

There's too much money slushing around in the 'system', and it is now, fitfully, being reduced. Hence the extreme volatility in the stock, currency and resource markets.

It looks like that from above, to me, anyway.

This is a cynical perspective, of course. Plenty of people, collectivised savings and otherwise productive endeavours get caught up in those fits. Reducing their misfortune should be a top priority. I do not know whether the levers we are pulling so far (which are mainly putting on the brakes) are the best for that.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Sun Jan 11th, 2009 at 09:50:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Some speculation (4.00 / 2)

There is too much money in the system because commercial banks were allowed to circumvent the regulations that allow Central Banks to control the monetary base. This is money that should have never existed, as if it were counterfeit. The capital destruction should be limited as much as possible to the capital of those guilty of counterfeiting.

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jan 11th, 2009 at 09:56:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Some speculation (none / 0)

How do the former shadow banks and the hedge funds with their leveraged takeovers play into that? I mean, does their counterfeit money all ultimately derive from commercial banks?

These banks quite understandably do not want to lose their counterfeit money, which in addition has been spread all over the economy. So how would you achieve limiting the capital destruction to them? I can see outright nationalisation (not as in purchasing but as in seizing stock) as a first step, but I wouldn't know how to go on from there.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Sun Jan 11th, 2009 at 10:07:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Some speculation (none / 0)

Well, you'd have to establish that certain actions (the issuing of certain kinds of securities, the creation of certain kinds of off-balance-sheet entities, the transfer of certain kinds of assets) were illegal or a violation of banking regulation and then fine the entities responsible for those actions heavily, at least in the amount of their profit from the illegal action. In some cases the fines would instantly crash a company, in which case you can make the fine payable in new stock (like a capital injection, this would result in the public authorities having a majority stake in some institutions).

In some cases, individual people might be found to have benefitted (via bonuses) from illegal actions they planned and they could be fined themselves.

The guilty people and financial institutions have spread some of the gains, but not all.

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jan 12th, 2009 at 04:39:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Some speculation (none / 0)

Investigations will probably uncover a lot more of illegal activity... they've just begun in the US and we may have a lot to do in Europe. There's a large failure of oversight that has contributed its part to the crash. I don't know where that ends up.

I think, though, that most of the economically damaging behaviour was legal, and you can't change the laws after the fact. A historical case could be made for crimes against humanity as in the Nuremburg trials, but otherwise the rule of law is more important.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Mon Jan 12th, 2009 at 05:49:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Some speculation (none / 0)

Hmm, we can start with violations of banking regulations.

Now, if certain things were signed off by the regulators then you have a problem of regulatory incompetence or worse...

That is what I would like to see acknowledged, because Spain's banking regulator made a judgement call years ago that Special Investment Vehicles and off-balance-sheet Conduits would not be allowed and as a result Spain was mocked in the Financial Press for not embracing "financial innovation".

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jan 12th, 2009 at 06:22:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Some speculation (none / 0)

Spain's banking regulator sounds like an interesting person.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Mon Jan 12th, 2009 at 08:48:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Some speculation (4.00 / 3)

Gillan Tett has done stellar coverage of this in the FT.

Gillian Tett: Absolutely. I mean Spain is a truly fascinating example. You couldn't derive, or couldn't create a better laboratory test case if you wanted, because what Spain did a few years ago was two things: firstly, they forced their banks to lay aside rainy day funds, but secondly they also told them they wouldn't give them any beneficial treatment if they started pushing assets off their balance sheets. So all these shadow banks that were created by other banking systems, these FIVs, all these other conduits, didn't really grow up in Spain. Now the reason why the Spanish did that was because they had suffered a very debilitating banking crisis in earlier decades. And they remembered that, and they were determined to be super-prudent as a result. And basically they flew in the face of all the international fashion at the time. They only got away with that partly because the Spanish government is slightly more maverick in its approach. The Germans by contrast wanted to do something similar, but they felt duty bound to obey the rules. But secondly, because the central bank and the regulator were tightly coordinated in Spain, because they were part of the same institution, the central bank could actually do it, they could actually implement it, which wasn't the case in many other countries.

You can access the following article by googling its headline, if you find the FT's firewall will block you if you follow the link.

FT.com: Why the pain in Spain has mainly been contained by Gillian Tett on February 1 2008

Why? One intriguing explanation was recently offered by Guillermo Ortiz, Mexico's central bank governor, who has been closely studying the Madrid experience. According to Mr Ortiz, several years ago a clutch of Spanish banks discretely approached the Spanish central bank and asked permission to do what other international banks were doing at the time - namely setting up networks of SIVs.
However, Madrid took a dim view of this and demanded that Spanish banks post an 8 per cent capital charge against SIV assets. That essentially killled the business stone dead by removing incentives to create these creatures.
At the time, this stance provoked predictable grumbles from Spanish financiers. After all, back then almost every other Western regulator was encouraging its banks to get their assets off the balance sheet as fast as you can say "Basel I".

And to think Spain almost didn't make it to the G20 summit...

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jan 12th, 2009 at 09:07:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Blow my own horn department (4.00 / 4)

Here's me from a couple of days ago:

My stimulation idea - paid volunteerism.

Then this from today's news:

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/01/10/powell.service/?iref=mpstoryview

"We have an economic problem," Powell told a Washington news conference Friday. "People are losing their jobs. Let's come forward to serve our fellow citizens and to serve our nation."
...
Powell said the site will follow the model of craigslist.org, a worldwide virtual bulletin board where users can post free classified ads.

Apparently some of my off-the-wall ideas aren't that weird after all.

Policies not Politics
---- Daily Landscape

by rdf (robert.feinman@gmail.com) on Sat Jan 10th, 2009 at 07:21:27 PM EST

Volunteering is not off-the-wall (none / 0)

although I don´t see where Powell has offered to pay them anything because it wouldn´t be volunteerism anymore. Unemployed people at this moment may consider it ´rich´ of Powell, to offer that as some solution, though.

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. --Charu Saxena.

by metavision on Sun Jan 11th, 2009 at 09:48:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Saturday Open Thread | 61 comments (61 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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