Late Open Thread

by DoDo
Wed Jan 14th, 2009 at 01:11:25 PM EST

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Sorry for the delay - too many FPs AWOL at the same time!

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Wed Jan 14th, 2009 at 01:11:59 PM EST
I appreciate that but generally it would be nice if OT were roughly scheduled for early afternoon GMT. The 17:00/18:00 startups mirror what used to happen when Salon was in the early morning. With Salon opening at 22:00 GMT there's not a lot of time for developing conversations these days.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Jan 14th, 2009 at 01:26:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Seconded!!!!

Come, my friends, 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world.
by poemless on Wed Jan 14th, 2009 at 01:30:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
With all due respect, if you want to have a conversation and the Open Thread is not yet up, you can always use the Klatsch section of the previous Salon.

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jan 14th, 2009 at 03:10:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
With the same amount of respect, you miss the point.

Come, my friends, 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world.
by poemless on Wed Jan 14th, 2009 at 04:00:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Please explain the point then. I gave a response to Helen - the OTs are not often late and we aim to get them up by 3pm. Sometimes this isn't possible.  

This is a community blog and everyone is free to create their own things within it or to start discussions elsewhere or carry on the previous day's OT if the FPers are bit late getting to a computer.

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Wed Jan 14th, 2009 at 04:07:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If you want to develop a conversation, doing it in the fag end of a Salon while we're waiting for OT isn't the same.

I'm not complaining, I'm very grateful for what you guys contribute. I'm just saying OT tends to be up about 2 - 3 hrs after optimum from my point of view.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Jan 14th, 2009 at 04:07:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm just saying OT tends to be up about 2 - 3 hrs after optimum from my point of view.

Are we going to have another round of people debating what the time of the Salon or the Open Thread should be for their own personal convenience like last time we moved them around? Never mind me, then.


Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jan 14th, 2009 at 05:25:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Nnnno, I think Helen is saying that the 3pm GMT time was OK and wishes we'd keep to it, not realising that we failed to keep to it because we just couldn't be around to post it at the right time.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Wed Jan 14th, 2009 at 05:40:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
We generally aim to have the OTs up by 3pm GMT.  Usually we do apart from some occasions were none of us are about for whatever reason - usually work.

Ad astra per aspera
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Wed Jan 14th, 2009 at 02:38:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So everyone's on the same page, 3PM GMT is 5PM Europe.  Do you mean 3PM London (GMT+1)?

Skennah Kowa
by Crazy Horse on Wed Jan 14th, 2009 at 04:16:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I thought GMT was London?  Long day of management training - but yes 3pm London.

Ad astra per aspera
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Wed Jan 14th, 2009 at 04:17:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Maybe you failed to re-set your clock from daylight savings time? ;-)

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Wed Jan 14th, 2009 at 05:45:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
GMT is Greenwich, 1 hour before London, 2 before Berlin.  Lots of bankers call me an hour later than planned, as i scheduled GMT +2 and they thought GMT is in the center of the universe, London.

computers make that mistake often as well.

Skennah Kowa

by Crazy Horse on Thu Jan 15th, 2009 at 05:58:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Darn daylight savings!

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jan 15th, 2009 at 06:01:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As you're travelling by ferry to the mainland, you probably won't experience any of the wormhole effect that one often gets in the Chunnel.  But don't forget to continue taking local time samples as a preventative.

Skennah Kowa
by Crazy Horse on Thu Jan 15th, 2009 at 06:04:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's okay - he used to be a physicist.
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Jan 15th, 2009 at 07:01:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I really hate to contradict you, but my PNing nature will out!

Greenwich Mean Time - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Greenwich Mean Time (GMT) is a term originally referring to mean solar time at the Royal Observatory in Greenwich, London. It is now sometimes used to refer to Coordinated Universal Time (UTC) when this is viewed as a time zone, although strictly UTC is an atomic time scale which only approximates GMT in the old sense. It is also used to refer to Universal Time (UT), which is the astronomical concept that directly replaced the original GMT in 1928. Observations at the Greenwich observatory ended in 1954.

In the UK, GMT is the official time only during winter; during summer British Summer Time is used. GMT is substantially equivalent to Western European Time.[citation needed]

In other words, London is on GMT (or UTC, substantially similar) in winter, on GMT+1 in summer. Paris-Berlin are on GMT+1 in winter (ie now), and GMT+2 in summer.

DoDo and I did some fascinating (for PNers) research into the history of this, in some long-forgotten corner of this blog that I haven't got time to dig out now.

But be assured London is on GMT right now.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Jan 15th, 2009 at 06:33:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
LOL, makes me imagine signs on the road leading to your home saying You are now entering afew territory, where no comma is safe.

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jan 15th, 2009 at 06:37:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Now i've never astuted to the claims that i know nothing, but i do.  what knowing i presently have is limited to a belief system which includes being an hour ahead of London for most of the year.

i didn't think Britain had a summer?

Skennah Kowa

by Crazy Horse on Thu Jan 15th, 2009 at 06:47:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
They have a thing called British Summer Time to help them believe it exists.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Jan 15th, 2009 at 08:36:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There ain't a comma left intact in them thar hills!

Funny thing is, up a comma you find a colon.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Jan 15th, 2009 at 08:35:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ahhh, i see the "aged" men's Korn Klub has gained a new member.

I won't make any corny jokes about a 3rd runway.

Skennah Kowa

by Crazy Horse on Thu Jan 15th, 2009 at 09:02:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That fascinating PM-ing was in my Central European Time diary, and concerned chiefly the question of why France is in CET rather than GMT where it would naturally belong. We uncovered a total mess of timezones in WWII-time and post-war Europe.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Fri Jan 16th, 2009 at 04:52:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
From the "totally awesome random stuff you find on the web" files:

WebEcoist: Incredible tree-climbing goats of Morocco!

There's a funny debate about remote-controlled goats there too.

And completely unrelated:

Strange and bizarre endangered species.

Here's a Mexican walking fish:



Come, my friends, 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world.

by poemless on Wed Jan 14th, 2009 at 01:12:40 PM EST
The Axolotl is not a fish, it's a kind of salamander. What the Axolotl has in common with human being is that it can stay its whole life at the larva stage, i.e. it can reach sexual maturity and reproduce without becoming an adult...

There's a nice short story from Julio Cortazar about axolotls.

"Ne te courbe que pour aimer..." René Char

by Melanchthon on Wed Jan 14th, 2009 at 02:49:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Can it get into trouble through careless sexting?
by das monde on Wed Jan 14th, 2009 at 09:12:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thank you for reminding me my childhood in Morocco!

The tree these goats are climbing in is an Argan. It is a very ancient kind of tree that grows only in the south of Morocco and some parts of Algeria. Its nuts produce a very good oil.

"Ne te courbe que pour aimer..." René Char

by Melanchthon on Wed Jan 14th, 2009 at 02:59:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Here around Budapest, there were constant below-zero temperatures since the night of Christmas Eve - until today. But today, there was rain, +1°C, then evening came -- and there's a thin film of ice on EVERYTHING. Even my dog almost broke her neck on a staircase.

Predictions are that sub-zero temperatures are to return - I guess hospitals will have high season...

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Wed Jan 14th, 2009 at 01:15:15 PM EST
Yes, similar thing happened here. We had a thaw yesterday then an overnight frost and the paths were really slippery today.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Jan 14th, 2009 at 01:27:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Most of the US is experiencing subzero temperatures - as in below 0°F, which is roughly -17°C. Here in Monterey, however, we're looking at two days straight of 80°F - or roughly 27°C. If I didn't have so much work to do I'd grab the surfboard and hit the waves. Hell, I might just blow it off and go down to the beach anyway.

The problem is that this means we're not getting rain. The Eastern Pacific is currently experiencing a La Niña effect, which is the opposite of an El Niño - during the La Niña cycle the Eastern Pacific experiences unusually cold water temperatures. This saturates the Pacific Northwest with moisture (they had record snowfall and rainfall over the last month, with the worst flooding in Washington State in a century) and leaves California high and dry.

2007 and 2008 were dry winters, but 2009 is shaping up to be even worse. At a monitoring station in the California delta near Sacramento the rain gauge measured 4 inches - instead of the usual 23 inches. La Niña means the already bad situation will continue to grow worse.

Water rationing is likely in Southern California later this spring and it is highly likely that we'll have more severe rationing here in Monterey - we are not part of the state water system and have been overdrawing the Carmel River for years.

Californians could stand to consume less water, but we're not as profligate as some other parts of the country. The 1986-93 drought led to widespread installation of water-saving devices and practices that are still with us 20 years later, but much more can and must be done. Of course, this comes at a time of profound economic and political weakness for the state, which won't make those problems or solving the water issue any easier.

Global warming is going to exacerbate this - state studies show that the Sierra Nevada snowpack, source of most of our water, will disappear as snow is replaced with rainfall. Snow can be stored all winter; rain can't. In turn this leads to a drier climate, and an increased fire danger from the dead trees and plants that gave up after not getting enough water.

Of course, it could be worse - from approximately 1000 to 1200 California and the Southwestern US experienced a "mega-drought" - an extended dry period. It is possible that California may be entering another such period. Since 1976 we have had more dry years than wet ones, and since 1998 we have only had a few good years of rain (2004-06).

So, while I am enjoying this bit of July in January, I would prefer rain. Lots and lots of rain.

And the world will live as one

by Montereyan (robert at calitics dot com) on Wed Jan 14th, 2009 at 02:48:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
They seemed pretty good at wasting it when I was in LA. I couldn't believe the rivers that ran down the road from the automatic garden waterers.

I was shocked that people could behave like that in a desert.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Jan 14th, 2009 at 02:58:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The proper solution is to break off the LA basin and flush it down to the bottom of the Pacific Ocean, thereby conserving an enormous amount of water and saving us from a great amount of stupidity.
by paving on Wed Jan 14th, 2009 at 08:03:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
They think they have to have an English lawn in order to feel good about themselves.


Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jan 14th, 2009 at 08:16:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
We're currently trapped in an arctic weather system.  It's been here since, oh, late Nov.  We've had blizzards almost every other day.  And the temps are dropping and staying below zero.  Another round of -35F wind chill on the way.

...

The replacement of the phrase "Global Warming" with "Climate Crisis" must have been a success, because no one around here is making snarky comments about global warming.  It's mostly of the "OMG this is not even normal for Chicago.  Soon we'll be turning to cannibalism like Franklin's men.  It simply MUST be a sign of the end of the world." variety.

Come, my friends, 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world.

by poemless on Wed Jan 14th, 2009 at 03:01:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
TheTalking dog

And so it continues... the heroic Lt. Col. Darrel Vandeveld of the Army Reserve [seventh GTMO prosecutor to resign!] submitted an affidavit in federal court challenging proceedings against GTMO detainee Mohammed Jawad, in which Vandeveld asserts that the evidence against GTMO kangaroo court military commission defendants is in a state of complete chaos.

Videotapes of confessions are missing, written confessions for illiterate men are written in languages the men don't speak (let alone read!), and of course, many of the statements were made under coercion, or outright torture, often at the hands of the Afghans or others who turned them over.



keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Jan 14th, 2009 at 01:40:50 PM EST
Charming. And all this is in an affidavit???

Who's going to be Obama's Attorney General, again?

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jan 14th, 2009 at 03:27:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Eric Holder, formerly Team Obama VP Vetter, formerly AG pro temp - GHWB admin, former Clinton Deputy AG and Pardon Czar, former counsel Merck, NFL, Chiquita, Vick, State of IL (Blagojevich).

'Course, Cass Sunstein, newlywed of Samantha Power (AWOL foreign policy expert) could "make a difference." Mr Obama nominated his close personal friend head the Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs.

"This office is in charge of coordinating and overseeing government regulations," a transition official said Wednesday, "and a smarter approach to regulation is key to making government work better and getting better results in terms of protecting health, the environment, etc."

Beltway scuttlebut is that the post is a warmer for SCOTUS appointment. If you're interested, believe it or not, there's an artful article, sketching Sunsteins politics here.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by MarketTrustee on Wed Jan 14th, 2009 at 08:20:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In the preparation of the 2004 US elections, dubya (well, his managers) spent a lot of time and resources building up a vast organisation, especially through churches, which they immediately proceeded to piss away after the election. Sorry, John!

Obama isn't doing the same:

Retooling Obama's campaign machine for the long haul - Los Angeles Times

Reporting from Washington -- As Barack Obama builds his administration and prepares to take office next week, his political team is quietly planning for a nationwide hiring binge that would marshal an army of full-time organizers to press the new president's agenda and lay the foundation for his reelection.

The organization, known internally as "Barack Obama 2.0," is being designed to sustain a grass-roots network of millions that was mobilized last year to elect Obama and now is widely considered the country's most potent political machine.

Organizers and even Republicans say the scope of this permanent campaign structure is unprecedented for a president. People familiar with the plan say Obama's team would use the network in part to pressure lawmakers -- particularly wavering Democrats -- to help him pass complex legislation on the economy, healthcare and energy.


Via Kdrum.

I'm undecided on whether this is a creepy new development or merely the old permanent campaign politics done right.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Wed Jan 14th, 2009 at 01:43:35 PM EST
I think the good outweighs the bad.  One of the few encouraging things in the last several years in America has been the fact that participation in the political process has become cool again.  Turnout in 2000 was below 50%.  In 2004 it was about 56%.  In 2008, about 63%.  It's still too low, but the improvement has been remarkable.

It might -- I don't know what they have in mind, obviously -- also be a rare instance in which a set of top-down idea makes bottom-up organizing more effective in the future, as the grassroots can play on successful ideas from our little band of merry Chicagoans in an effort to make the jump from being effective during campaigns to being effective in influencing lawmakers while governing.

As long as there is reelection, the permanent campaign is inevitable.

WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Wed Jan 14th, 2009 at 01:56:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Funnily I read just about the opposite in the guardian today

Guardian - John Odum - Democratic Moses

The question that remains is whether the lingering contempt for Dean will be enough to force a dismantling of his legacy at the Democratic National Committee. Although Obama spoke positively of the 50-state project while electioneering, the fact is that the contracts of the 50-state project organisers - more than 200 proven effective political staffers on the ground across the US - were allowed to expire after November, and there is no immediate sign that a recommitment to the programme is forthcoming.


keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Jan 14th, 2009 at 02:01:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It appears that Obama's people will run this organization rather than the DNC.  That's a big difference.

As for Dean he's on to bigger and brighter things.

by paving on Wed Jan 14th, 2009 at 08:06:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Time may tell us the answer.

If sanity be culturally normative, then by the norms of this culture I claim insanity.
by ARGeezer on Wed Jan 14th, 2009 at 02:28:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, "marshalling an army of full-time organizers" is creepy -- whether one's finds intriguing the ethical inconsitency of unitary courtesy or the internal consistency of a (DNC) self-funding "universal civilian corp." It's not new. Recall, the Hal Malchow reformulated 50-state defense (05.23.08):

In short, a volunteer signs up. The 25 nearest neighbors who pique the DNC's interest are then mapped out for the volunteer. The DNC also offers a script to use during canvassing as volunteers go door to door, asking their neighbors the degree of their Democratic support or their support for John McCain. The volunteers asks about their neighbors' top issue interests. The aim is to return and later target each person with a specific script based on their previously identified concerns.

Volunteers are ranked locally for their effectiveness and rewarded with invitations to intraparty conference calls or meetings. They are also encouraged to forward invitations by e-mail to friends or family, mimicking the viral success of social networking websites.

The program, which debuted in Kansas in late April, was expanded to Virginia. The DNC plans to gradually roll out the program nationally by mid-summer. ...

The party continues to build the DNC's voter file with some assistance from the Obama and Clinton campaigns, which have been offloading data to the DNC file.

That, in itself, is an accomplishment for a party that brought its voter file in-house for the first time in the 2006 midterm elections. That year, Democrats conducted a pilot program using the data in six states, including Montana, where Jon Tester unseated Republican Sen. Conrad Burns. ...

"A lot of the consumer data helps at the margins," said Keith Goodman, the director of special projects in the DNC's political department. And, as Goodman notes, many elections are decided in the margins.



Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by MarketTrustee on Wed Jan 14th, 2009 at 03:21:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So why does this make me think of MLM?

"Ideas or the lack of them can cause disease." - Kurt Vonnegut
by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Thu Jan 15th, 2009 at 05:16:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Because of the messianic component of the Obama movement.



Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jan 15th, 2009 at 05:36:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
BBC NEWS | Entertainment | Prisoner star McGoohan dies at 80

Emmy-winning actor Patrick McGoohan, best known for starring in cult 1960s TV show The Prisoner, has died at the age of 80.

He died in Los Angeles after a short illness, his film producer son-in-law Cleve Landsberg told Associated Press.

McGoohan played the character Six in the surreal 1960s show, filmed in the north Wales village of Portmeirion.

Be seeing you...

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Wed Jan 14th, 2009 at 01:48:42 PM EST
That show was way ahead of its time.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Jan 14th, 2009 at 01:53:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Best TV show intro ever.

Madness takes its toll. Have exact change ready

by ATinNM on Wed Jan 14th, 2009 at 07:05:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ah, so THAT's what one The Simpsons episode lampooned.

On TV show openings, I'm partisan to:

Some other classics from my childhood, all for their score, the first for the opening take too:



*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Wed Jan 14th, 2009 at 08:01:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Portmeirion is a very odd place.

Give a politician an inch, and he'll think he's a ruler
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Wed Jan 14th, 2009 at 08:52:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Al Sharpton loads photon torpedoes and fires a devastating broadside at religious homophobes.

Al Sharpton - Church uses money and power to persecute gays but ignores poverty

"I am tired," he went on, "of seeing ministers who will preach homophobia by day, and then after they're preaching, when the lights are off they go cruising for trade...We know you're not preaching the Bible, because if you were preaching the Bible we would have heard from you. We would have heard from you when people were starving in California--when they deregulated the economy and crashed Wall Street you had nothing to say. When [accused Ponzi scammer] Madoff made off with the money, you had nothing to say. When Bush took us to war chasing weapons of mass destruction that weren't there you had nothing to say.

"But all of a sudden, when Proposition 8 came out, you had so much to say, but since you stepped in the rain, we gonna step in the rain with you."
[....]
"There is something immoral and sick about using all of that power to not end brutality and poverty, but to break into people's bedrooms and claim that God sent you. It amazes me when I looked at California and saw churches that had nothing to say about police brutality, nothing to say when a young black boy was shot while he was wearing police handcuffs, nothing to say when they overturned affirmative action, nothing to say when people were being [relegated] into poverty, yet they were organizing and mobilizing to stop consenting adults from choosing their life partners."

h/t Pams house Blend

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Jan 14th, 2009 at 01:50:51 PM EST
Ol' Al's good, isn't he?

WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Wed Jan 14th, 2009 at 02:00:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, he's Sharp.

Skennah Kowa
by Crazy Horse on Wed Jan 14th, 2009 at 02:06:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
you are so corny sometimes. cracks me up.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by MarketTrustee on Wed Jan 14th, 2009 at 02:46:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I quite agree.  Corny humor is an under-appreciated form of humor.

WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Wed Jan 14th, 2009 at 06:20:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Guess what's this...

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Wed Jan 14th, 2009 at 02:30:53 PM EST
Czech fine art, I hear...

Come, my friends, 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world.
by poemless on Wed Jan 14th, 2009 at 02:50:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
..an entirely accurate representation I'd say ;-))

The absence of the UK from a representation of europe is also pretty much spot on.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Jan 14th, 2009 at 02:55:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The French one is annoying in its predictability, the Slovenian one just stupid, the Polish one has as positive that it is difficult to see as national provocation. But the Austrian one is low-brow and very Czech-Republic-specific, the Bulgarian an below-the-beltline insult, while the Denmark and Netherlands ones are pure inflammatory idiocy.

(Oh, and the Slovakian and Hungarian ones are just... lame. It seems the Czech artist who pretended to be 27 European artists was short on even the stereotypes.)

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Wed Jan 14th, 2009 at 03:17:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
...oh, and among the worst, I left out the Lithuanian one. Poemless will surely like it...

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Wed Jan 14th, 2009 at 03:21:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The Lithuanian one is awesome. I mean read the description of "Vilma Stasiulyte":

I concentrated on the fate of totalitarian
monuments and their conversion
into new-generation monuments. The
symbol of Brussels is the Manneken
Pis. I have adapted this symbol to the
situation in my own country. The project
can be viewed as an alternative
monument to Lithuanian independence
and as an outlet for the wrongs
of the past.

Hilarious!

The French one is indeed predictable, but hey, they are supposed to be stereotypes. I see how the Dutch one is offensive, but fail to see how the Danish one (Lego) is.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Wed Jan 14th, 2009 at 05:22:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The project
can be viewed as an alternative
monument to Lithuanian independence

I wonder how actual Lithuanians take that -- I'd think some of the nationalist ones may be cheering, while the rest feel double-tricked for the country being reduced to the relationship with Russia. That is, er, Belarus -- maybe the Czech 'artist' never looked at a map...

On the Danish one: maybe you failed to recognise the Mohammed Cartoon?

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Wed Jan 14th, 2009 at 05:36:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ah, I did, he changed that. Well, it's a thing that got out of Denmark, in that sense doing it with lego is kind of ambiguous.

The Lithuanian piece could better have been used for Estonia, granted (even though the Estonian one is fun enough).

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Wed Jan 14th, 2009 at 06:01:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The French one is indeed predictable, but hey, they are supposed to be stereotypes.

On a general note: if the artist really meant it when he said his art is supposed to break down these stereotypes, methinks what he really achieved was just re-freshing and reinforcing some of the crudest stereotypes.

He also said in reaction to the outrage that ountries should be able to laugh about themselves. Which insinuates that his stereotypes actually describe those countries...

BTW, what is the Czech one supposed to symbolize? I somehow failed to gain that insight even from the text.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Wed Jan 14th, 2009 at 06:12:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm not sure. Maybe he intends to stream Klaus quotes on the electronic display.
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Wed Jan 14th, 2009 at 06:15:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Effect jump? Can't find a thing.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Wed Jan 14th, 2009 at 06:37:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The real hilarity is in the leaflet (big .pdf). One big send-up.
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Wed Jan 14th, 2009 at 05:04:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Maybe it was all a Frank Zappa-like trick played on the Czech EU Presidency. However, I think many of the sculptures work more to tell unflattering things about their maker's understanding of Europe than work as pranks...

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Wed Jan 14th, 2009 at 05:44:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The send-up is of art majors, in this case:
Grotesque hyperbole and mystification belongs among the trademarks of Czech culture and creating false identities is one of the strategies of contemporary art.  The images of individual parts of Entropa use artistic techniques often characterised by provocation. The piece thus also lampoons the socially activist art that balances on  the verge between would-be controversial attacks on national character and undisturbing decoration of an official space. We believe that the environment of Brussels is capable of  ironic self-reflection, we believe in the sense of humour of European nations and their representatives.

To press that point home, here's the description for the UK by "Khalid Asadi":
If art and associated attitudes
are not to become pleasing-appearance
ready-made goods, but a living,
albeit perhaps fleeting, organism, art
should be able to improve exactness
of its message in the time allotted
to it and thus, paradoxically, define
itself in history. This improvement
of exactness means that its individual,
selective sieve can cover the so-called
objective sieve. Where their nodes
do not coincide, `free space` opens.
Energy of the free space is proportional
to the power of sharing, or, more
precisely, it is the sum of the freely
pulsating words which, in this context
and in each specific time, is able to
define (tangle up) different meanings
naturally through spontaneous intuition.
These screen points are spatial
holograms of historical memory, experience,
and therefore each such new
overlap becomes another non-linear
tangle to the naked eye.
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Wed Jan 14th, 2009 at 06:12:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
socially activist art

What's that? This sounds like a right-wing call-word, but maybe I'm completely off.

We believe that the environment of Brussels is capable of  ironic self-reflection

...which, again, assumes that the artist's stereotypes have anything to do with stuff to self-reflect upon. Methinks this is the case of a bad joker who rather blames lack of humour on the part of the victims of his bad jokes.


*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Wed Jan 14th, 2009 at 06:18:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Socially activist art is just intended as a description, I guess, of what Cerny addresses - commissioned pieces that signify little but are accompanied by obfuscatory language hinting at social engagement or subversion.

And Cerny has been wildly successful with this piece because everyone is talking about it (though whether that constitutes a dialogue that furthers understanding remains to be seen)

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Wed Jan 14th, 2009 at 06:48:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
David Cerny says hoax EU sculpture inspired by Monty Python - Times Online
"Unfortunately for Bulgaria, this shows in a certain way that some nations have a sense of humour and some do not. I have apologised but when we were travelling to Bulgaria when I was young, the biggest difference for a child was the toilet, so that was the first thing that came to my mind."

How boorish. So it was really his very limited knowledge of the world (even at the level of stereotypes).

I have looked at Černý's other work in the meantime. Some interesting stuff (like the St. Václav on a dead horse) and a some other idiotic provocations (like the paint attack on the war memorial tank).

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Wed Jan 14th, 2009 at 07:15:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
...I should also quote this:

"I am seriously very pro-European," Mr Cerny told The Times. "It would be a great pity if Europe would not be able to take this as a bit of satire and irony. If we are strong as Europe it should be OK for one nation to make fun of other nations."

I'm not even sure where to begin picking this apart. So he wants to test Brussels... by provoking reactions from national governments. And sees himself as a nation. Or representative of it. Or entertainer of it?

Really stuff for the Torygraph to love. (Or is that a double-trick played on them? Nah, I doubt it.)

Mr Cerny added: "Monty Python and Sacha Baron Cohen are probably the most exceptional examples of satiric politically-incorrect humour and maybe because the British have this sense of humour they are able to take the joke better than some other nations.


*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Wed Jan 14th, 2009 at 07:24:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If we are strong as Europe it should be OK for one nation to make fun of other nations.

I disagree, I happen to find national stereotyping not funny at all.

When I was an Erasmus student in the UK there was a sort of welcome event for all the international students, and there were a lot of us. The event was introduced by the Chancellor of the University who thought the best way to break the ice was to treat us to a string of not so funny and sometimes offensive jokes on people'd nationality. Bleh.

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jan 14th, 2009 at 07:40:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The send-up is of art majors

BTW, I thought the send-up must be domestic or amateurish, because of the "Agnes Cerese" for Hungary: "Cerese" just doesn't fit into Hungarian. (Well, maybe as an Italian immigrant.) But having checked, most other names appear to exist in the appropiate language.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Wed Jan 14th, 2009 at 06:33:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
One for my gallery

Opprobium of the Press, 15 Jan 2009

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by MarketTrustee on Wed Jan 14th, 2009 at 03:31:22 PM EST
Quite a bunch of headlines.

The way we spell the russian currency here is the rouble, when did it become the ruble ? (on its way to becoming the rubble)

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Jan 14th, 2009 at 04:05:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"Ruble" is the American spelling.

Come, my friends, 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world.
by poemless on Wed Jan 14th, 2009 at 04:09:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"Rouble," "ruble," "rubble" -- whatever.  Dow closed at 8200.  Another exciting day on the Street!

WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!

[Drew's WHEEEEE™ Technology]

WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Wed Jan 14th, 2009 at 04:20:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Helen:
(on its way to becoming the rubble)

ChrisCook: "I wish I'd said that".

Helen: "You will, Chris, you will..."

Modern conservatives engage in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy: the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.Galbraith

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Wed Jan 14th, 2009 at 06:58:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hello everyone,

First of all thanks to all the folk that tried to help the last time I bordered this issue.

I continue to have problems accessing the site, especially posting comments. Yesterday I spent two hours between 9 am and 11 am trying to post a comment at my latest thread on SER-2. This time I wasn't only unable to comment, every link, button, etc, would simply leave my browser waiting for an answer from the website, that would about 20 minutes later display a time out error.

I then tried something different, as a desperate measure I tried accessing the site with internet explorer (instead of Firefox). Posts made by this browser still "hang up" but an answer seems to eventually arrive. It took me about an hour to post a new log entry in the afternoon, but it eventually came up.

This is really strange, because the time out errors I get with Firefox doesn't seem to be generated by the browser itself, but by some http server.

Next time I experience this problem I'll try to run a ping or a tracert command to see if I can get anything else.

Thanks once again.

Vencit omnia veritas.

by Luis de Sousa (luis[dot]a[dot]de[dot]sousa[at]gmail[dot]com) on Thu Jan 15th, 2009 at 03:29:22 AM EST
Some of our swiss users were having problems like this which were related to their ISP and they found a workaround by using a certain proxy server. I don't remember the details but someone should :-)

Good luck getting this fixed, we miss your comments.

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jan 15th, 2009 at 04:10:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
We were not even able to reach the ET server when this was happening in Switzerland. No ping, no nothing. A traceroute indicated that two servers in Switzerland where at some point just balling the request between them. So, a faulty routing table or some such thing. If Luis is capable of seeing some of the site, this would not likely be the same problem.
by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Thu Jan 15th, 2009 at 04:53:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks, today things are working fine so far. Can you just confirm me that there was no problem with the server yesterday?

Some months ago everyone from Switzerland stopped accessing TheOilDrum. Luckily one of the contributors is from there, which helped identifying the problem: some ISP was simply blocking the site.

Vencit omnia veritas.

by Luis de Sousa (luis[dot]a[dot]de[dot]sousa[at]gmail[dot]com) on Thu Jan 15th, 2009 at 04:41:19 AM EST
I'm not aware of any server problems in the last few days, no.

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jan 15th, 2009 at 04:43:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
ping and tracert from when you having the problems would be very helpful as a first step.
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Thu Jan 15th, 2009 at 05:13:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
test

"I freed thousands of slaves. I could have freed thousands more, if they had known they were slaves." -Harriet Tubman .
by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Thu Jan 15th, 2009 at 09:11:52 AM EST


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