Welcome to the new version of European Tribune. It's just a new layout, so everything should work as before - please report bugs here.

OMG Bush is GONE!!!

by poemless Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 01:33:52 PM EST

I.  Can't.  Believe. It.

Promoted by Migeru


He got in his helicopter and flew away.  Just like that.  ... it's over.

Display:
I wonder if he had seen Obama's speech in advance? I presume he did. It may be me rorschaching on the Inauguration speech, but I thought there was a lot of direct criticism of Bush in it.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 01:12:23 PM EST
Even the BBC picked that up.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 01:13:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
CNN cut to Bush at one point when Bush talked about no excuse for taking people's civil rights away.  Everyone clapped.

Come, my friends, 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world.
by poemless on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 01:15:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Did Bush?

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 01:35:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No.  He looked guilty as charged.

Come, my friends, 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world.
by poemless on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 01:36:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I did think whenever I saw him that he was grinning so widely. It was just as in everything else in his life, the adults had turned up to bail him out from his problems.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 01:38:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
He is guilty as charged.  But as a displaced amurkan, i still hold to the truth that everyman is innocent until proven guilty, whether he be from Guantanamo or the no longer Whitey House.

No longer Whitey House, that has a good ring to it, n'est pa?

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin

by Crazy Horse on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 01:40:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
i still hold to the truth that everyman is innocent until proven guilty,

Yap...Milosevic also was innocent after all...for what western world accused him...I suppose...
Bush innocent? He should be prosecuted for so many of wrong doing against all laws, international and USA...if only...

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Thu Jan 22nd, 2009 at 10:22:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Remember the snark marks, so everyone gets the point.

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. -Charu Saxena.
by metavision on Fri Jan 23rd, 2009 at 11:18:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There was a fair amount, but it might have been too subtle for Citizen -- that's right, Citizen -- Dipshit.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 01:15:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm putting the shoes on to dance in the street

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 01:12:32 PM EST
Makes a change from throwing 'em.

by Magnifico on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 01:17:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I dont think I've really got the arm on me to hit him from here.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 01:36:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
After eight years, I could give it a shot.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 01:37:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
but then you are just a touch closer...

do you want us to have a whip round to buy you a replacement pair?

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 01:39:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Meh, think I missed my chance.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 01:48:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, wait, no, he's about to take off.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 01:56:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Aim for the engines

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 01:59:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Quick, someone find a flock of birds!

Come, my friends, 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world.
by poemless on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 02:01:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Heh.  Could barely see it, but we watched the take-off and shouted our obscenities.  A good time was had.

"Farewell, douchebag."

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 02:05:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
a giant cloud of teh stewpid lifts off washington d.c.

oh joy!

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 04:01:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Let the joyous news be spread: The wicked old witch at last is dead.


Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 01:12:56 PM EST


Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 01:14:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"Was it something I did... or didn't do?"

by Magnifico on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 01:16:22 PM EST
Just in case you have not seen...



The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 03:44:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
by das monde on Thu Jan 22nd, 2009 at 01:21:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I found the whole thing very emotional. Aretha started gently, but pulled out the gospel stops as she closed. Fantastic!

Poetry is great to have at an inauguration. Maybe there'll be a Secretary of the Arts sometime in the US.

But the key thing was all those people and their sense of history.

I ventured to my good friend upstairs "What if the Crips and Bloods were so inspired as to give up their violence, but stay together to help instead of hinder?" I felt that it was that inspiring, in this zeitgeist.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 01:19:57 PM EST
Bush getting ready to fly out of Andrews.  Too bad I didn't have to work today.  Could've watched it with my own eyes.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 01:20:43 PM EST
Out of Andrews to where?

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 01:35:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Tejas.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 01:35:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Unless there were more pardons we dont know about yet, he was so cartoon texan in his pardons. In only pardoning the people who shot a Texican.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 01:41:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I guess, knowing what a small human being he is, we have to acknowledge that he just doesn't give a damn about anybody, hence the small number of pardons.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 01:56:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So does this mean there's hope of prosecutions for war crimes or crimes against humanity?

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 03:54:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well it's possible, just not likely.

(Extradition to Iraq is still my favourite option, on torture charges)

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 05:04:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think there is little hope for criminal prosecutions.

I have high hopes for civil prosecutions, on the other hand.  If someone can successfully sue for their take-out coffee being too hot then surely there are grounds for suit for being tortured.  

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 05:12:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 05:18:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
who cares?
by paving on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 02:11:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Amen.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 02:14:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Venezuela, they have no extradition agreements with the US.
by Torres on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 02:14:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Actually there is such a treaty, ever since 1923. However, since the U.S. has decided that it doesn't apply to terrorists, Chavez could just as well decide that it doesn't apply to former presidents.
by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 02:26:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Plus, he might fare better being tried in the US than he would if Chavez decided to bring charges against him!

Come, my friends, 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world.
by poemless on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 02:28:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I guess one can't trust the Cohen brothers for the status of US diplomacy :(
by Torres on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 04:27:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
given that Patrick McGoohan of Prisoner fame died this week, maybe Bush will wake up in the Village as the replacement number 6.

Cheney will continue his duties as Number 2 and "Rover" operative.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 05:24:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks, Poemless, for capturing this historic moment.

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 01:35:55 PM EST
Thanks.  It may be some of my best work to date.  ;)

Come, my friends, 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world.
by poemless on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 01:44:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Famous last photos.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 01:39:07 PM EST
Been to look at the dark side, apparently it wasnt a good speach because he didn't mention freedom and Liberty enough.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 01:53:18 PM EST
You surfed evil so we don't have to... ceebs gets the metal (sp) of honour (sic).

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin
by Crazy Horse on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 01:55:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Mental of honour I think

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 01:59:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

(via Aravosis)

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 02:09:35 PM EST
Fuck, Aravosis, by the way.  Where's he get the money for a killer view from his balcony like that?

That ain't right.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 02:13:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Aravosis has been a well-paid DC insider for nigh on 20 years.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 02:51:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's amazing what a little motivational speechifying can do....




You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 02:22:34 PM EST


A 'centrist' is someone who's neither on the left, nor on the left.
by nicta (nico@altiva․fr) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 02:46:24 PM EST
What's she saying in the last panel? Babelfish spits out gibberish, so I'm guessing it's a turn of phrase?

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 04:25:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
loosely...

"wait a sec...but us, we gotta live with the same one we have?"

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 04:31:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ah, yes, I can see why that's a depressing thought...

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 06:00:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ted Kennedy was just taken out having convulsions, along with Robert Byrd.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 02:52:18 PM EST
I mean, how am I going to be so openly and instinctively anti-American now that the leader isn't a certifiable moron and criminal?

So many stereotypes which will take weeks, if not months, to reconstruct!

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 03:37:29 PM EST
I'm having a tough time figuring out how to make fun of Obama.  The best I've come up with is his habit of beginning sentences with "Well, look..." when he's annoyed by a question.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 03:49:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
He's too fuckin' smart. That's the problem.

What can you do with that. I'd sit and criticise but I have half an idea he's going to do a little Irish diplomacy and give some real socialism to Americans without them being able to figure it out. (Which is btw clearly what is needed...)

For those who don't know, as per my da, Irish diplomacy is the ability to inform a man of his need to go to hell such that he look forward to the trip...

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 03:54:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

There is his - generally quite laudable - attempt to see all sides of every question (see The Audacity of Hope - which I'm about half-way through) and the best in people - he says Bush is a likeable guy. You could satirise this - "Now look, you're ignoring the fact that Hitler was interested in art and was kind to his dog."

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 05:59:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I got a good laugh out of that.  Well done, Ted.  I bow before you, sir.

"Well, look, it's important to remember that Hitler was kind to his dog.  Aaaaaaaand he did, uh, I think, have a strong interest in fine art...."

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 07:03:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, yes, this could definitely work.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 07:08:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Any quote like that makes me instantly think

The Producers quotes - Mel Brooks Zero Mostel, Gene Wilder, Kenneth Mars

Franz Liebkind: Hitler... there was a painter! He could paint an entire apartment in ONE afternoon! TWO coats!


Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 07:52:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
As I kid I believed the propaganda that Hitler was in fact named Schicklegruber and a wallpaper hanger by trade.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Wed Jan 21st, 2009 at 04:19:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thankfully, I still have the English (and junior partners, the Irish) to make "reference" to.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill
by r------ on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 03:50:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Which country elected that Sarkozy guy again? Remind me.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 03:53:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Red America, if I were guessing based on Fox's Sarko leg-humping.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 03:58:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Now Now, children, leave it lie.  Gramps is gonna tell ya about how James joyce would have structured the inaugeral fest.  He could resort to political analysis without resorting to leg-humping, though some Yurp leaders seem to be quite expert at such actions.

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin
by Crazy Horse on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 04:03:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Everyone is allowed one electoral mistake per generation.

But not two.

I hope Obama will surprise me. I hope so. Until then, I withold judgment on where he sits, in terms of economic and social justice, to the right or the left of Sarkozy. I think the left, but given the economic team he's chose, not obvious.

One thing is really exciting though, and no amount of obfuscation can take this away, that a man who is son of an African immigrant would be President of the US, I never thought I would see this. We Europeans would do well to make this possible here too, instead of continuing to stigmatise. That for me is really the veritable magic of the moment, one step for us all to equality.

The rest, we shall see...

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 04:02:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Which recent French leader wasn't a mistake?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 04:03:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Two electoral mistakes of this generation: Le Pen making it to the Presidential runoff in 2002, and Sarkozy winning in 2007.

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 04:07:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I assume Sarko.

Le Pen is an artifact of how democracy works here. The outcome was bad, but the process, I'm not ashamed of that, and the second round...what did Le Pen get?

No, that wasn't a mistake. Jospin would have been better than Chirac, but Chirac was better than what, for example, the Worker's Party in England was inflicting on Europe.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 04:14:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hey, Bush 2000 was an artifact of the way the electoral system wrks in the US - he actually lost that one.

The big mistake was his reelection - that's what Americans were making up for in 2008 when they elected Obama.

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 04:18:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"Better than Tory B. Liar" is a rather low bar to clear, though...

I think even "heckuva job" Brownie is able to do that...

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 04:22:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Chirac...that wasn't a mistake, that was a difference of opinion. And, btw, the french right via Chirac proved superior to the anglo left (Blair, Clinton et al)

Mitterand...Europe could do far worse than Mitterand, especially what he first tried (but what he proved was that in an integrated europe you can't do real socialism unless all of europe does. Lesson learned...and Prodi and Delors learned it well.)

Giscard? Again, difference of opinion, compared to the Thatcher the english came up with though...not the worst.

Pompidou? At least a famous wife, in many regards.... De Gaulle? At least he got english membership in the eec correctly. We're still paying the price for ignoring his veto.

How far am I supposed to go back?

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 04:11:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The French elect much better leaders than the UK and the US.  It has EVERYTHING to do with their political system.  A scammer like Bush could never sniff the Presidency in France.
by paving on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 05:32:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"The Americans elect much better leaders than the UK and France.  It has EVERYTHING to do with their political system.  A scammer like Sarkozy could never sniff the Presidency in the US."

OK, just to make a point.
Sarkozy is our mix between Cheney, Bush and Berlusconi. He is proof that we can elect just as bas as those countries.


Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Wed Jan 21st, 2009 at 12:44:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
VGE...

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 06:33:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"We Europeans would do well to make this possible here too, instead of continuing to stigmatise. "

<bangs head off the wall repeatedly>

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 04:08:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Whatever for?

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill
by r------ on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 04:14:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The analogy is entirely broken. What does it mean for Europe (which bit??) to do the same thing?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 04:16:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In France, it means a french of north or west african origin has a credible chance to be president. And not just aristocracy finding refuge from the big bad communists in Hungary or haute bourgeoisie armenienne escaping Turks in Turkey.

In England, someone of pakistani origin in the same position, or maybe west indian.

In Germany, a turk.


The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 04:24:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But you wouldn't expect that for another generation: they only really  arrived in the 60s. (50s?)

In one sense Obama is riding on the coattails of the native African-American population, on another he's the beneficiary of being a recent immigrant without a slave background and being half well-connected white.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 04:44:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
True.

That's a very good point.


The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 04:47:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
My core frustration with this line of argument is that people are trying to draw parallels between the situation of an ethnic group that have been in the US longer than most the whites and recent immigrant groups.

It's just nonsensical: most immigrants have started off poor and uneducated and it takes time to overcome that to the extent that they have the connections required to make it in politics.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 04:53:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I understand your point but must point out a few things:

  1. Native African-American population?  In America?  I mean, I get what you mean to say, but there is no native African-American population.

  2. This doesn't get much airtime, but the fact is many, most African Americans have a mixed backgrounds.  

  3.  Also, while it's now though he's descendent from the civil rights movement, it was originally quite the opposite.  The things we now think benefit him originally made things more difficult for him.


Come, my friends, 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world.
by poemless on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 04:57:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
More native than you.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 04:59:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Which is a really bad way to put it, especially since you're probably going to do something weirdly American and tell me you're 1/5 African-American or something.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 05:04:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Poemless is biodiverse: you must have missed the genetics presentation...

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 05:08:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No, but I am legally recognized as being NATIVE AMERICAN.

Good god.

Come, my friends, 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world.

by poemless on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 05:11:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Are you 1/64th Apache or Cherokee?
by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 06:05:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
1/16 Cherokee

Come, my friends, 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world.
by poemless on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 06:06:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Power to the powers of minus 2!

A 'centrist' is someone who's neither on the left, nor on the left.
by nicta (nico&#65312;altiva&#8228;fr) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 06:21:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
ahahahahahaha

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Wed Jan 21st, 2009 at 11:53:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
?

I am sure I have NO IDEA what you are even talking about!  The only Native Americans I am aware of are ... er, Native Americans.  You know, the people already here when the white men and their slaves showed up.  Everyone else is immigrants, their descendants, descendants of slaves, or, as most Americans, incl. Obama, some combination of the above.  


Come, my friends, 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world.

by poemless on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 05:10:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's that obsession with ethnicity that's just plain weird.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 05:13:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
One person's obsession is another's easy coffee table talk.
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 05:18:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sure. Weird peoples' coffee table talk!
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 05:21:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hey - you brought it up.

Come, my friends, 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world.
by poemless on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 05:32:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"native" = "US-born"

Sheesh.

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 05:46:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Makes enough sense to me, but Colman was using it to mean people whose roots have been here for a hundred years or so.  

Obama is "US-born".

Sheesh.


Come, my friends, 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world.

by poemless on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 05:48:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But not a whole half of his family on his father's side.

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 06:05:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's a long tradition ... "natives" against immigrants in the Gangs of New York in the 1860's, where the ancestors of some of the "natives" would have arrived around the turn of the century.

Allowing native-born children of immigrants as small-n native Americans would be too loose to create an effective tribalism, but going more than two or three generations back would normally sacrifice too many potential nativist allies.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 11:40:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Not like John Panama McCain then? ;)

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 06:38:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
US military bases count as US territory.

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jan 21st, 2009 at 09:08:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I am reminded of an old joke:

Q: Why does the sun never set on the British Empire?

A: Because God doesn't trust and Englishman in the dark.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Wed Jan 21st, 2009 at 01:42:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You see, around here, if your family has been around for a couple of hundred years we tend to consider you native.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 05:00:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Also, while it's now though he's descendent from the civil rights movement, it was originally quite the opposite.  The things we now think benefit him originally made things more difficult for him.

Please, elaborate.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 05:12:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
He was not originally welcomed into politics in Chicago.  Those leaders from the civil rights era felt that they'd paved the path established themselves considered him an interloper from who knows where who didn't respect how hard they'd worked for their political power.  Everyone adores him now, but back in his early years here, this was not the case.  His background was not an asset.  You can say that's just the corrupt gang-like nature of Chicago politics, but he explicitly came to Chicago because it was the center of black politics in America.  Everything was a double-edged sword.  

Come, my friends, 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world.
by poemless on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 05:22:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
he explicitly came to Chicago because it was the center of black politics in America.

Is that so? How do you know Chicago was the center of black politics in America ...given the facts of black politics in America?

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 06:18:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ok, that's what the Frontline biography told me.  Take it up with them.

Come, my friends, 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world.
by poemless on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 06:19:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
oh. no. you di'n't

just admit that everything you know about black politics in America amounts to a Frontline campaign biopic whose setting is ...

a city some call the "capital of black America," to work as a community organizer and try to sort out his dual identities. Colleagues say that after a few years he had found peace with who he was, but had become frustrated by his inability to change the larger structural problems behind the poverty he saw in Chicago's South Side.

...thanks to 70 years of DNC electioneering itself epitomized by a mayoral mafia --I mean, going back to FDR, Farley, and yella dog Ed Kelly-- and slum lords Rezko and Jarrett. The bright spots of egalitarian justice being H. Washington and Mosely-Braun.

Of course Frontline implies "center of black politics" in the Shakespearean sense of "black," right? Dismal by comparison to black politics in any other state since Reconstruction.

See, I hafta follow Barry's PIRG line from NYC through a classified ad to the windy city. It's more believable.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 07:43:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't see how that contradicts anything I said.  You obviously have an issue with this topic, but please don't take your attitude out on me.

Come, my friends, 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world.
by poemless on Wed Jan 21st, 2009 at 10:31:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Nothing personal. I'm not the one projecting Barry's personal experiences and professional achievements to whitewash segregation in Chicago. There's more where that came from. And I hope you know it.

You obviously have an issue with this topic

What topic?

please don't take your attitude out on me.

What attidude?

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Wed Jan 21st, 2009 at 12:22:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What are "the facts of black politics in America"? Can we have a diary?

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jan 21st, 2009 at 02:33:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You're funny. A 50-state history spanning 600 years of a people whose "identity politics" were invisible in The Literature until The Cultural Revolution of the 20th century. In a diary.

I might be able to compile a bibliography of less than 3,500 words. Over the next few weeks. Let me give that a whirl. hmmm, random selection from the stacks ...

Jan Carew, Fulcrums of Change (1988)

Peter Martyr, the first major historian of the Americas, and a reasonably reliable source considering that he never set foot in the Indies or the mainland territories, mentions in passing that the Pinzón brothers of whom Martin Alonso was Columbus' chief pilot and one of his principal partners in his "Enterprise of the Indies," were everywhere known as "Negro Pinzóns." These brothers, as both their Spanish names and their reputations as renowned seamen indicates, were Afro-Spanish and middle-class. They were also much better off financially than Columbus since they could afford to make a substantial monetary investment in his first voyage. ...

After the first voyage, the chronicle of the Black presence takes on new dimensions: In 1513, thirty Negroes helped Balboa hack his way throught the tropical undergrowth to reach the Pacific Ocean. There were Black soldiers with Ponce de Leon, when he set out to find the Fountain of Youth, and inadvertantly landed on the Florida coast. Langston Hughes in his Famous Negro Heroes of America [1958], wrote:

'When Hernando Cortez invaded Mexico in 1519, one of the Negroes in his army of 700 found in his ration of rice one day some grains of wheat. These he planted, and is so credited with introducing the first wheat onto the mainland of the New World. And by 1523 there were so many Negroes in Mexico that it was decided to limit their entrance since it was thought they might try to seize the ruling powers from the Spaniards --as indeed some in 1537 were accused of plotting to do.' ...

Herrera [y Tordesillas, Antonio] had actually lived and travelled extensively in the New World. Here is his chronicle of events that took place between 1531 and 1548.

  1. Negroes born in America were found to be better laborers than those brought from Guinea.

  2. The king (of Spain) had sent the force of two ships to make war on the Caribs ...It was the general opinion that the troubles on this land [Puerto Rico] were caused by negro slaves, Wolofs and Berberici, and so the king was asked to send more.

'1533. The Wolofs of San Juan were declared to be haughty, disobedient, rebellious, and incorrigible, and could not be taken to any part of the Indies without express permission.

  1. In Quivira, Mexico, there was a Negro who had taken holy ecclesiastic Orders.

  2. There was established at Guamanga, three Brotherhoods of the True Cross of Spaniards, one for the Indians, and one for Negroes.

  3. An uprising of Negroes took place in Sand Pedro of Honduras.'*

------
* L. Weiner, Africa and the Discovery of America, vol I (1920)

See also

Zora Neale Hurston, WPA ethnography

Adam Clayton Powells, Sr, Jr

Barbara Walters, Audition

::

Not whatcha call "our better history," eh?

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Wed Jan 21st, 2009 at 10:04:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You're funny. A 50-state history spanning 600 years of a people whose "identity politics" were invisible in The Literature until The Cultural Revolution of the 20th century. In a diary.

Well, you have to start somewhere. And you don't have to be comprehensive.

"What is the centre of black politics in America today" is a rather limited question.

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jan 21st, 2009 at 10:06:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
oh, snap. I almost forgot Elizabeth Donnan. Crucial empirical, demographic source material, foundational really to debunking the stereotype of a black culture and politics. Demystifies the ancient curse of being "sold down river." Not to mention  diffusion of "values voters" in The Great Migration um upstream.

If the answer to the question, "What is the centre of black politics in America today?", is money --capital gain, bebe-- then the next surely concerns the so-called ingenuity of the "post-racial" individual American.

Which should "represents" nothing of race. And kinda problematizes the "intellectual debate" about nationalizing "our better history." If there were a debate.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Wed Jan 21st, 2009 at 11:36:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
He's being funny on purpose, I suspect.

Your answer makes the point that the difference between the situation in US is  a just a tiny little bit different to that in Europe. But still people insist on comparing the situation of African-Americans with much smaller populations of recent immigrants.

Which isn't to say the situation in Europe isn't wrong in many ways (as it still is in the US), it's just not useful to make glib, illiterate comparisons between the two situations.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Jan 21st, 2009 at 10:12:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Quite.

I've notice there is no commentary to this diary addresses singular political events that propelled Afro-European migrations

Declarations of independence 1947 - 1968. 1960, in particular

See Franz Fanon, Black Skin, White Masks (1952) concerning people who "speak French properly".

Uncanny.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Wed Jan 21st, 2009 at 11:03:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There you leave me behind: colonial history is not my strong suit      and I'm not really good with nationalism (in whatever form) either.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Jan 21st, 2009 at 11:17:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's complicated, Fanon wrote in part from his training in psychiatry, in part from his memory of immigration to France from Antigua.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Wed Jan 21st, 2009 at 12:30:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
See? You have material for any number of diaries, most of which would stand on their own so you can just write one now :-)

Now seriously, I suspect black politics is a big blind spot for most of us here. It certainly is for me. We don't have to wait for Black History Month to have black history diaries.

Please?

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jan 22nd, 2009 at 04:35:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A linguistic issue. Native American vs. native american meaning those who don't have recent immigrant roots. Very much a factor in NYC politics where IIRC about half of the black population is made up of immigrants and their kids.
by MarekNYC on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 05:24:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, if you aren't talking about original inhabitants when you say "native Americans," but as opposed to recent immigrants, I'd assert that being born in America makes you native.  Otherwise you are simply making up subjective criteria to assign degrees of American-ness to people, which is in itself subject to extremely subjective criteria.   And you can't have a very productive conversation once it goes down that road.


Come, my friends, 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world.
by poemless on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 05:45:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, nativism is a favored polemic of white supremacists. It would be silly to test the American "faith," character or citizenship, by any other psychometric but profit motive.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 06:30:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'd say third rather than second generation. You definitely get a different perspective if you're brought up by parents who immigrated as adults. When the language and culture of the home you grow up in is not-American, that affects you and your identity. This is true even if as is often the case, you grow up mono or one-and a half lingual (I was the only American born kid among our Polish friends who spoke Polish fluently. The rest either didn't know it at all, or generally spoke English while their parents spoke Polish. This pattern seems quite common among Asians of my generation as well.)
by MarekNYC on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 07:13:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
My youngest kid's got a bit of Cherokee blood in him ... you mean like that?


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 07:01:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
that's the story of America!
by paving on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 05:33:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, I'd quibble with that a bit.  I think the well-connected element resulted more from whites he met rather than family.  Wasn't his mother an anthropologist and his grandfather a furniture salesman?

Poemless makes a fair point about a lot of black talking heads being antagonistic towards him initially, until they realized regular black folks loved him and decided to jump on the bandwagon.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 06:25:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That just makes Colman's point - for the African American leadership he wasn't "black" enough, not only for being half white but also for not being a descendant of slaves.

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jan 21st, 2009 at 02:32:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But I don't see how that was helpful to Obama's candidacy.  So how can it make Colman's point?

My own take is that being a descendant of slaves makes no difference when it comes to perceptions of whether or not this or that person is "black," as the term applies in the states.  Being black is, as you know, as much a cultural thing as it is a biological thing, which is a point on which some black leaders (the black Villagers, sans Clyburn and Lewis) and a lot of really stupid white journalists -- looking at you, Wolf Blitzer -- didn't "get" it.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Wed Jan 21st, 2009 at 09:32:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And neither does Gaston Monnerville?

Seriously. Each wave of immigrants has reached the pinnacle of power in France. Every single fucking one. Just not 30 years after the first generation arrived. It will take another generation or two. If you look at party militants right now, you'll be impressed by the number of Africans in there. They'll go up.

Bleh.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 04:49:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I know, on our side this is true.

It is a situation where the right, who play the same ethnic games as in Bush's america (rachida dati et al) have been in power too long. 12years of completely white Chirac (and no, no credit for Balladur, being Armenien is not the same thing) and now Sarkozist tokenism.

I have no doubt  we will do better but not if we leave it up to our conservatives.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 05:00:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Adding, it's been a lot longer than 30 years for the big wave of north african immigration...now, closer to 50-60 years.

Still no big leaders.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 05:02:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
When did the big immigration start in France?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 05:04:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In the 1950's. Really, right after the war.

It is a dirty secret that we did a bad job integrating those waves. Jerome will deeply disagree with this, I think, but really, the '80's and especially '90's were really pivotal in locking that failed integration in. We had a period of really sustained unemployment for so-called unskilled workers, first from the reaction to socialist reforms in the 1980's (unfortunately the rest of Europe wasn't ready for socialism) and then from Germany's re-unification that we all paid for via a really nasty recession.

We spent more than a generation under full employment. that's a recipe, in my view, for regression, and this is not an exception for France in the 1990's.

Adding to this,as regards what is happening in Ireland, I always thought that Ireland would somehow escape the downside of the inevitable neo-liberal hangover. After all, in Ireland you have perhaps the smartest people in all of Europe, an ability to deal favorably with the Americans, and the English language which accentuates the first two things. On top of this, Ireland chose to excel, in terms of finance, in back office automation instead of the speculative bullshit which is going to kill the uk.

I know the rest of us were supposed to watch the celtic tiger whose "reforms" we the rest of us were supposed to imitate, starting with the corporate tax cuts. But I think they made a mistake on this in Dublin, and more than a few Haugheys could have done with ten-dollar american shirts instead of hundred punt french hand-tailored ones, for which working irish, like working english, pay the price.

at least here there's a (more or less) progressive tax to pay for the corruption...

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 05:34:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
that one generation of underemployment fucked up integration pretty badly.

As did France losing its faith in its so far successful integrationist policies under the Agnlo-Saxon influence, with the persistent narrative that integration is a failure in France.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 05:49:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Absolutely.

We had the superior model, we still do, but we need full employment now to make it work. Not all the time...but now, certainly.

Personally, I make certain ideological compromises precisely because of this point (and perhaps coloured by  my own experience with unemployment in the '90's...)

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 06:11:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'd tend to disagree. I'd say the peak of immigration was during the late 60's, mostly 70's, at least as for when the workers started to bring their families :

Most immigration into Frace in the 50's was of Spanish and Portuguese origins, I think.

Démographie de la France - Wikipédia

Origine 1962 1968 1975 1982 1990 1999 effectifs 1999
Europe 78,7 76,4 67,2 57,3 50,4 44,9 1 934 144
Espagne 18,0 21,0 15,2 11,7 9,5 7,3 316 232
Italie 31,8 23,9 17,2 14,1 11,6 8,8 378 649
Portugal 2,0 8,8 16,9 15,8 14,4 13,3 571 874
Pologne 9,5 6,7 4,8 3,9 3,4 2,3 98 571
Autres Europe 17,5 16,1 13,1 11,7 11,4 13,2 568 818
Afrique 14,9 19,9 28,0 33,2 35,9 39,3 1 691 562
Algérie 11,6 11,7 14,3 14,8 13,3 13,3 574 208
Maroc 1,1 3,3 6,6 9,1 11,0 12,1 522 504
Tunisie 1,5 3,5 4,7 5,0 5,0 4,7 201 561
Afrique subsaharienne 0,7 1,4 2,4 4,3 6,6 9,1 393 289
Asie 2,4 2,5 3,6 8,0 11,4 12,8 549 994
Turquie 1,4 1,3 1,9 3,0 4,0 4,0 174 160
Ex-Indochine 0,4 0,6 0,7 3,0 3,7 3,7 159 750
Autres Asie 0,6 0,6 1,0 1,9 3,6 5,0 216 084
Amérique et Océanie 3,2 1,1 1,3 1,6 2,3 3,0 130 394
Non déclaré 0,8 0,1 - - - - -
Total 100,0 100,0 100,0 100,0 100,0 100,0 -
Effectif 2 861 280 3 281 060 3 887 460 4 037 036 4 165 952 4 306 094 4 306 094


Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Wed Jan 21st, 2009 at 04:53:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I forgot to describe the first graph : it's the number of babies named Mohamed each year in France. I'm older than most French Mohameds, obviously...

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Wed Jan 21st, 2009 at 04:55:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What happened since 1996?

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jan 21st, 2009 at 09:14:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ali is showing a somewhat similar curve. Considering there has been 26 years since the first peak of mohammeds, I guess this could be the "next generation" of mohammeds ; but then, there also seems to have been a rise of immigration from the Maghreb starting in the late nineties, still rising in 2003, that could also link to it.

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Wed Jan 21st, 2009 at 09:31:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Most of the immigration since then has been workers bringing in their families - usually young, child-bearing age women (and young kids).

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Jan 21st, 2009 at 03:13:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The first immigrants are not usually French, you know. Not all of their kids are, and they don't start very high in society.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 05:10:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Defensiveness isn't necessary. Obama is the US looking at itself and trying to persuade itself that no, it really doesn't do apartheid. At least, not any more. Or not much, anyway.

In Europe we've had women leaders since the 70s (even if some of them have been insane) and atheist, or at least secular leaders for at least as long. So it's very self-serving to pretend that Obama is a manifestation of the American Dream, and that Europe is behind and supposed to be playing catch-up.

Just because there's a guy with a black face in charge doesn't mean that ethnic apartheid has disappeared, or that economic apartheid and systemic inequality aren't the foundations of US politics to an extent that would be unthinkable in the more progressive parts of Europe.

A small minority of people clawing their way to the top doesn't mean that 'opportunity' is a reality for the majority. That's not going to be become true until the Senate and House include a solid majority of individuals who came from dirt poor backgrounds without money or family connections, and who can run without needing to pretend that they're either mainstream Jews or Christians.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 05:26:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In Europe we've had women leaders since the 70s

Quite so.

(Sorry, couldn't resist.)

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 06:56:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
France has had atheist leaders for about 130 years...

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Wed Jan 21st, 2009 at 04:56:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
yeah, right.

North African immigrants started arriving in large numbers since before blacks were allowed to vote in much of the US, or if you prefer, roughly about a decade before Obama was born. IIRC as of just a couple years ago there was not one single non-white parliamentary deputy from metropolitan France.  This isn't because the French are more racist than Americans, but because of state policy, or rather the lack thereof. The US legislature shows how this works - in the Senate, blacks are virtually non existent; in the House, with its government imposed racially gerrymandered districts, there are tons of them. The other factor is the embrace of explicitly 'communitarian' politics which are as AMerican as apple pie. For this failure I particularly blame French lefties like yourself. I get that conservatives don't give a shit about racial equality, and have an ideological bias against state intervention, but that fact that the majority of the French left adopts a neo-lib/neocon stance on race and ethnicity is rather galling.  

Why the hell it's good for the government to intervene to ameliorate class inequalities and why class based political and social organizations are a good thing, but ethnic ones are some sort of affront against the mythical race blind France and its unity is something I just don't get.

by MarekNYC on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 05:21:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Remind me again how the US got from blacks not being able to vote to a black President? How did that happen?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 05:25:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's not the French that have a neocon/neolib stance, it's the neocons/neolibs that have adopted the longstanding French position, which has worked to integrate every single wave of immigrants up to now. Just not in one generation.

Integration is working in France, even if it's not fashionable to say so, and even if there is a real problem of ghettoisation of a minority. But it IS, at heart, an economic problem rather than a racial one.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 05:54:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And, it is absolutely true, even if not yet economically and politically yet confirmed, that we are far more race blind (cops excepted, as they are now trained to be racist) than america, and, as you say, the integration model makes this possible.

When you do not integrate, people stay 'other,' it's as simple as that.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 06:02:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And, it is absolutely true, even if not yet economically and politically yet confirmed, that we are far more race blind

As a practical matter, given the realities, I completely fail to see how this can be seen as something positive.

by MarekNYC on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 07:06:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
On one level, I see your point, that the really vulnerable among us here are disproportionately racial minorities, and this would seem to need to be addressed.

On another level, though, at a really fundamental level, race-blind means just that - a black person is french just like a white person is, there is no differentiation, if you speak french properly, have the standard french general culture, everyone is the same, color no matter. There are problems, clearly with people of north african descent there is job discrimination and general racism, but it isn't having anything to do with color in my opinion, but one of integration, nothing which can't be solved in another generation, like for poles and italians in their waves of immigration before. There are no statistics but I strongly suspect, and observe, much higher levels of marriage between people of different color, and more mixity in the schools, than what I saw in the US, that's for sure, though granted I saw rural Michigan and then Minneapolis.

France needs more equality, via more efficient redistribution, and effective full employment policies. The latter point has been a horrible thorn in the integration story. If these things can be accomplished, that will take care of the problems we have in a generation or less.

None of this takes away from the amazing American accomplishment though. I certainly never thought it possible.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Wed Jan 21st, 2009 at 04:37:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
as defined by who?  the ministère de la Culture?

redstar: ... it isn't having anything to do with color in my opinion ... There are no statistics ...

From an earlier diary:

European Tribune - Racism in French employment

L'âge et l'origine, principales discriminations à l'embauche (2006 November 21)

<...> the "first national barometer" carried out by the temporary work agency Adia with Jean-François Amadieu, professor at Paris I University and director of the Observatory of Discriminations. Made public on Tuesday November 21, the study shows that most kinds of employment discrimination, with the exception of that against the handicapped, have gotten worse in comparison to a study from 2004.

6461 CVs were sent over the course of a year in response to 1340 job offers. The results (invitations to a job interview) obtained by a "control" candidate (male, 28-30 years old, having a "stock French" last name and first name, without photo) and by candidates more likely to be discriminated against were compared.

The big loser is the "48-50" year old who is selected the least often, regardless of socio-professional group, labor pool, company size, or work sector: among 100 invitations for job interviews that the control candidate received, this category received three times less (32), especially if he is a white-collar professional (14 invitations, while older blue-collar workers get 50). The white-collar professional of North African origin gets 17 positive responses, his blue-collar counterpart 47. Generally, as a consequence of his ethnicity, he only has 36 chances for a job interview, while the "stock French" candidate has 100.



Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.
by marco on Wed Jan 21st, 2009 at 08:13:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"we are far more race blind than america"

This may be based on old information. My experience is that the forced integration of schools and the military starting in the 1960s has paid off. Certainly in more cosmopolitan places like Boston and New York there is pretty broad acceptance of all races. But here in arch-conservative Colorado Springs we have so many mixed race military families that it is almost the norm. It is not even commented on to see families with random backgrounds including orientals, blacks, and whites. In malls and stores one might expect such acceptance simply on a practical basis, but surface tolerance at least extends even to cowboy dance halls, nightclubs, and motorcycle bars where one might expect the most racist types to hang out.

Not to say that there isn't still overt racism; we had a hate crime in our neighborhood just a few months ago. But I think that the broad acceptance of Obama reflects specific government anti-discrimination actions taken within the past four decades.

by asdf on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 10:37:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Definitively not, if race blindness means really blindness. So specific anti-discrimination actions are as well not race blind. Race consciousness is definitively much higher in the US even than in Germany, where it is probably higher than in France. The acceptance of Obama can even be improved due to that, when many Americans have the impression, that 'it was time for an AfroAmerican' to become president.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers
by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 11:52:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But it IS, at heart, an economic problem rather than a racial one.

Don't you realize that the two are intrinsically linked?

Integration is working in France, even if it's not fashionable to say so, and even if there is a real problem of ghettoisation of a minority.

Just a hell of a lot slower than if the government and the elites felt that it wasn't somehow taboo to rely on anything else than the invisible hand.  I'll give you an example from the political realm: I've read that non-white socialists complain of two factors that prevent them from getting even a minute fraction of the power that their numbers would indicate. The first is that the leadership often worries that putting up a non-white candidate would reduce the party's vote share - something that racial gerrymandering works to counter in the US. The second is that the leaders tend to want to help their friends, and since social networks are definitely not perfectly racially integrated, and the folks at the top are white, that means that the whiteness of the existing power structure tends to replicate itself. Again, same problem in the US, but explicit ethno-racial political organizing works in the other direction.

It's not the French that have a neocon/neolib stance, it's the neocons/neolibs that have adopted the longstanding French position, which has worked to integrate every single wave of immigrants up to now.

ditto for America, in both cases we are talking white immigrants. But that's not what we're talking about here. You still haven't explained to me why it's wrong for the government to take an active role in ameliorating certain social inequalities, but not others.

by MarekNYC on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 07:05:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
well, the idea is that if you treat them as social inequalities (ie economic), you solve them irrespective of their proximate cause (ie recent immigration, or divorce, or poor educational background, etc...)

Affirmative action has other consequences. Gerrymandering creates rentes de situation and fractures society around community lines.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Jan 21st, 2009 at 05:37:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If we're having politic-cultural pissing contests, in which century will the US have a female head of state.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 05:22:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And in which eon an atheist one?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 05:24:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"And in which eon an atheist one?"

We already had one: Thomas Jefferson.

by asdf on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 10:40:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
correct the wiki article about Jefferson, in which very clearly the opposite is written.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers
by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 11:11:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
As can be noted by looking at the Wiki discussion page (locked) on Jefferson, he's pretty controversial. Not as controversial as Ayn Rand, but up there. So editing the page is going to be pretty problematical.

As an American politician, Jefferson had to profess some sort of religion, but his deism and/or Unitarianism are at the far extreme of what is possible while staying within the "organized" religions.

I suppose the point is that our Founding Fathers were a pretty solid Enlightenment crowd, and that we have regressed over time. Lincoln and his Bible quoting, FDR and his dragging ministers into the Executive circle, and just worse and worse as we go forward...

by asdf on Wed Jan 21st, 2009 at 10:23:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, I think you're confusing Jefferson's beliefs with what John Adams's followers accused him of in campaigning for the presidency, I think.

Just for the record: Jefferson didn't believe in equal time for Satanism or teaching prostitution in the schools either. ;)

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Wed Jan 21st, 2009 at 07:43:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Jefferson was a pretty committed secularist (and certainly no orthodox Christian in any conventional meaning of the term), but I don't think you can really call him an atheist - even in his private writings he would frequently make reference to interventionist deities. It's possible that it's just turns of phrase that he inherited from the cultural mythos that he grew up in... but then again, it's also possible that he accepted at least part of said cultural mythos. In fact, it would be weird if it were any other way.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Wed Jan 21st, 2009 at 01:56:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"Maddow 2016!"

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 07:07:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Maddow vs Palin 2016
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 08:26:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
She's still going to be around in 2016?  Taking the Dan Quayle comparisons to the extreme a bit there.  I'm not sure I can handle eight more years of Bible Spice.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Wed Jan 21st, 2009 at 07:29:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"By his forehead shall ye know him, for no-one shall buy or sell unless he has the mark of the beast"

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 04:17:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
let me count the ways...

  1. we're the culture of Survivor, NASCAR, professional wrestling, American Idol, Rambo and all other forms of commercialized recreation. In fact, America has contributed only in the most prosaic of artistic endeavors - we've produced some fine novelists, and some great political rhetoric. Artistically, Americans are mute. (Aaron Copland and Samual Barber notwithstanding - their forms are an extension of European musical development.)

  2. We are, by and large, a provincial people, who know little of and are not interested in, other peoples around the world, yet are all too ready to criticize and condemn.

  3. Americans, though believing themselves well educated, are in fact anti-intellectual. We're democratic, and one man's opinion, no matter how ill-informed, is as good as another's. Americans tend to believe in their own fantasies rather than seek out the truth of things. (Which is why Robert Bates' dictum earns a spot in my sig. It's truly newsworthy.)

  4. We've a foreign ministry that has operated for decades as if it was a branch of the US Chamber of Commerce, yet continues to proclaim our "moral" superiority.

  5. ...


Other reasons will present themselves in time, so fear not. You'll suffer no lack of material, and you'll see all these conditions I've named above displayed proudly for the foreseeable future, I promise.

"It Can't Be Just About Us"
--Frank Schnittger, ETian Extraordinaire
by papicek (papi_cek_at_hotmail_dot_com) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 07:34:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Artistically, Americans are mute. (Aaron Copland and Samual Barber notwithstanding - their forms are an extension of European musical development.)

Ummh, Jazz? Film?

And as far as white and standard high culture being very much part of the European/Western stream  how could it not be?

by MarekNYC on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 08:23:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
everyone knows the 12-bar blues is the most enduring and pervasive cultural gift america has given the world.

seriously!

no other algorhythm has rocked so many rooms.

;)

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 09:10:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
To hell with the Greeks....the US gave us Metaphysics of Quality

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson
by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 09:49:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Dan, a screenwriter in John Fowles' Daniel Martin, asks why so much garbage was created by filmmakers in english speaking countries, when elsewhere in the world (mentioning Satiajit Ray, for instance) it was clear that film could be a powerful art form.

As for music, I thought about jazz, blues and gospel (what they used to call, "race music") when writing that, and came to the conclusion that those are forms which never quite made it to the mainstream, or when they did, (with the very rare exception of pieces like Brubeck's Take 5) appeared only in a debased manner. I agree though, that there have been immense talents doing wonderful work all along. The kicker is that Elvis still casts his shadow over the entire lot. (Ironic, because he was a huge blues fan.) Eric Clapton said something along these lines. He was listening to Robert Johnson, while Americans were hearing the Everly Brothers. His take was that we were listening to the wrong material.

An effect of the commercialization of art? Has someone has probably written a doctoral thesis on the topic?

"It Can't Be Just About Us"
--Frank Schnittger, ETian Extraordinaire

by papicek (papi_cek_at_hotmail_dot_com) on Wed Jan 21st, 2009 at 09:43:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Jazz was mainstream from the twenties to the fifties, lots of very good stuff then. In any case, most high culture is a rather minority taste, and always has been. As for the overwhelming mass of film being crap - sure, and true of everything, everywhere, in every medium. Tons of crap is produced in non-English speaking countries, plenty of good stuff has been produced in the US.
by MarekNYC on Wed Jan 21st, 2009 at 10:28:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There was a video I saw one time...something like Bulgarian Idol, if you can believe it. What got everyone's attention is the young singer butchering some pop song. Well, she had no English and she got the words wrong and insisted, even while the judges tried to suggest the correction, that her nonsense was right.

A clear case to ramp up our public diplomacy.

Your point is well taken. My underlying concern lies with mainstream (i.e.: commercialized) culture. There exists however, a subculture of poets (here as well) who would agree with me. Marissa Ranello is a favorite of mine among these. This is a subculture which quite openly stands in opposition to the mainstream. Was it ever thus? I suppose.

"It Can't Be Just About Us"
--Frank Schnittger, ETian Extraordinaire

by papicek (papi_cek_at_hotmail_dot_com) on Wed Jan 21st, 2009 at 11:05:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
bulgarian pop music is shite. I mean garbage of the worst sort. Yet their folk music is outstanding and uplifting and the women's folk "harmony" groups (using non western, possibly shamanic, harmonic ideas) are a gift to the world

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Jan 21st, 2009 at 12:03:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
well, she was game, I'll give her that. It was some (utterly forgettable) American pop shite anyways.

I will bear that in mind about Bulgarian folk music in future. I'll ask my music guy about it. (Feel free to pass along any suggestions, please.) Today he introduced me to Peter Warlock, who sounded suspiciously Baroque. An interesting story with that one according to him. Evidently, he'd compose in studio, then at some other location, pen viscious diatribes against his compositions. Might be interesting to put the two together and see which incarnation had the better judgement.

"It Can't Be Just About Us"
--Frank Schnittger, ETian Extraordinaire

by papicek (papi_cek_at_hotmail_dot_com) on Wed Jan 21st, 2009 at 10:36:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm going to be humming Mood Indigo all day!

"It Can't Be Just About Us"
--Frank Schnittger, ETian Extraordinaire
by papicek (papi_cek_at_hotmail_dot_com) on Wed Jan 21st, 2009 at 11:37:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Can I really be the first to say "our long global nightmare is over"?

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 04:45:07 PM EST
You can say it, but it doesn't make it true ;-)

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 04:48:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What you could say is that the tone of the global dialogue has now changed somewhat, and that this may indeed lead to diplomatic reassessments worldwide.

There are entire swathes of this world that are culturally macho. It is useless to provoke them. Neutering them is more effective than threatening to nuke them.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 04:54:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No,no,no, you misunderstand. "Our long global nightmare is finally over..." as in "Now that our long global nightmare is finally over, we can finally go back to sleep."

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 06:09:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
ZZzZzzzzzzzzz.........

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 06:17:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, it hasn't even started.

We are on the precipice of economic collapse, and with the notable exception of Spain, in North America and Europe the third wayers are in charge.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 05:26:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
... and waking from the nightmare, the weather outside is still bloody miserable.

I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 06:55:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Strange items going into the White House today...the title of this Norwegian article is

We have been preparing for this for weeks

by Solveig (link2ageataol.com) on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 06:59:55 PM EST
Nearly 400 weeks, actually.

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jan 21st, 2009 at 02:42:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There's a ready-made advertising campaign.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
by ATinNM on Wed Jan 21st, 2009 at 02:54:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
He forgot Poland!

Press reports claim that outgoing US president George W. Bush failed to contact any Polish politicians while bidding farewell to various heads of state at the end of his term of office.

President Bush made phone calls to leaders of the major global powers, writes the Dziennik newspaper, including Russian PM Vladimir Putin and President Dmitry Medvedev, German Chancellor Angela Merkel and President of France Nicolas Sarkozy.

The outgoing president also found time for a conversation with leaders of Denmark, Georgia and Greece. But he apparently had no time for Poland's politicians, claims Dziennik.

This is not the first time, one may say. Even after that celebration:

by das monde on Tue Jan 20th, 2009 at 09:50:15 PM EST
I bet you he didn't call Zapatero either.

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jan 21st, 2009 at 02:41:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And he certainly didn't call Rudd (the Australian press has already commented on that). Did he call Olmert, or was the call "in the middle of a speech" in effect his farewell call?
by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Wed Jan 21st, 2009 at 03:27:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I would humbly remind Americans that all was self-inflicted. Unlike slavery, it is no legacy of past generations; unlike nazism, fascism or communism, it was not an outside threat; unlike 1929, all knew what was coming.

The same people who voted for Bush twice voted fro Obama. The same people who cheered the Iraqi invasion are cheering Obama today. Anyway, I join in one cheer.

I will become a patissier, God willing.

by tuasfait on Wed Jan 21st, 2009 at 04:32:25 AM EST
by Lily (put - lilyalmond - here <a> yahaah.france) on Thu Jan 22nd, 2009 at 03:39:42 AM EST
That's a joke, right?

You never know this days, at least it's not The Onion.

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jan 22nd, 2009 at 04:38:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
yup.
by Lily (put - lilyalmond - here <a> yahaah.france) on Thu Jan 22nd, 2009 at 06:36:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
oups!
by Lily (put - lilyalmond - here <a> yahaah.france) on Thu Jan 22nd, 2009 at 03:43:31 AM EST
One Final comment

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri Jan 23rd, 2009 at 11:28:06 AM EST


Display:
Go to: [ European Tribune Homepage : Top of page : Top of comments ]