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Blogging the Brussels Way [Updated]

by Frank Schnittger Tue Feb 3rd, 2009 at 05:14:57 AM EST


I'm just back from a two day conference in Brussels organised by the European Journalism Centre in support  of their Th!nkaboutit campaign funded by the European Commission. As one would expect from an event organised by a journalism centre, the blogging competition is aimed mostly at journalists and journalism students, but a few "non-professionals" like myself slipped in!

The editors for the programme include our own Nanne, Andreas Mullerleile of kosmopolito.org, Jon Worth of jonworth.eu and  Daniel Antal of blogactiv.eu who is an economist. Speakers included Tony Barber of the Financial Times who had this to say of the event:

FT.com | Brussels Blog

This morning I found myself on a public platform in a Brussels hotel for my first ever European bloggers’ conference. As a representative of an “establishment” news organisation, I was half-expecting to be roasted alive. But in the end both Mark Mardell of the BBC, my friend and fellow-guest, and I got through it safely enough.

Mark Mardell of the BBC had this to say of his experience:

BBC NEWS | The Reporters | Mark Mardell

The EJC is organising a European blogging competition in the run up to the elections. Unfortunately only three entrants are being allowed from each country, and the contestants have already been chosen. As part of the event there is a new fantastic resource: a blogging portal listing the main EU blogs.

One of the participants suggested that people increasingly felt disconnected from the political process and distrust the mainstream media. So he argued it was the job of bloggers like himself to put the view of the people, not the elites.

While I would defend mainstream media bloggers like myself and the other guy on the platform, Tony Barber of the FT (you can read what he has to say about the event), and I think we get it right more often than not, I am all for more spiky opinion and controversial debate from the EU member countries. I'll be reading with interest.

(h/t to Nanne).

diary rescue by afew


The "spiky" opinion was mine, but truth be told, they need not have worried. The European Journalism Centre and the European Commission are not about to organise a counter-cultural revolution in which the mainstream media get overthrown by a nerd (what is the collective term for bloggers?) of mostly inexperienced bloggers and commentators!

Much of the conference was devoted to making bloggers more aware of the wealth of sources, mostly official and semi-official, which are now available to would be Eurobloggers. I got the slightly sinking feeling that the role envisaged for us by the conference organisers revolved around translating "the facts" as contained in the official sources into our local idioms and generally proselytising the European ideal.

One panellist, Michael Opgenhaffen, even suggested that the only difference between a blogger and a journalist was the lack of an editor telling him what to do and the lack of accreditation which restricts most blogger's access to official functions and sources. This led to an animated debate where many bloggers posited that the lack of quality control over most blogging output made it entirely incomparable to mainstream journalistic output. Hardly a surprising view for aspiring journalists!

I tend to take a middle of the road position on this. Some bloggers can be at least as informed in their specialist areas as professional journalists; their lack of editors and commercial constraints enables them to be more independent that journalists writing for a particular mainstream publication with particular commercial interests and editorial line; and bloggers who publish a lot of inaccurate or unsubstantiated content quickly become discredited in the blogosphere. However there is also a lot of unadulterated dross out there, and you need to be a very patient, well informed and discriminating reader to sort out the rubbish from some of the more sophisticated or ideological misinformation.

I would liken blogging more to an on-line pub or street discussion. It is a lot more informal, doesn't have much in the way of formal rules of evidence, but those who are rude or ill-informed are very quickly given a wide berth by those in search of information or education. Julian Popov, Chairman of the Bulgarian School of Politics, described blogging as a political intervention and credited Adam Brickley of draftsarahpalinforVP with the Republican's decision to consider her for the VP nomination. Hhhhmmmmmmm. Mark Mardell described blogging about the European Parliament as "the indefinable in pursuit of the inexplicable" which is probably as good a definition as any.

To be sure the contributions were non-partisan, but hardly apolitical. There was little debate around my suggestion that European electorates were generally very poorly informed about European Parliamentary affairs and this had as much to do with the poor quality of the product as it had to do with the poor PR of the EP communications team. How many people - even here on ET - can list a significant number of policy areas where the European Parliament (as opposed to the Commission or Council) made a decisive contribution? Claiming credit for reducing mobile phone roaming rates within the EU hardly justifies the expense of 750 Parliamentarians over a 5 year period.

To be fair, the Parliament has done a lot more, but hardly in the more critical areas of Financial regulation, Taxation, Jobs, Foreign Affairs and Security which get people excited and have a major impact on our daily lives. The problem is that the European Parliament doesn't have much competency or powers in these very important areas, much of the work where they do have competency is boringly technocratic (e.g. food labeling regulations), is subject to complex co-decision procedures and back room wheeler dealing, and can take many years to come to fruition.

I approach this competition with very mixed feelings. Having sworn never to write about Lisbon again (at least here on ET) I find that the topic will unavoidably dominate much debate in the European Parliament elections in Ireland and beyond. The platform for the competition is Wordpress which doesn't facilitate threaded conversations which I find essential for nuanced debate and following up on specific conversations. Having just mastered the art of embedding links, pictures, videos and tables on ET, I don't relish going back to a more basic platform. Perhaps dear old Scoop isn't so bad after all!

But most crucially, blogging for me has always been about the conversation, not the lead diary, and this is where I feel the European Tribune really scores. I really have no idea what sort of readership and participation the Thinkaboutit platform (now live) will ultimately enable, so perhaps I will give it a go and see how things work out. If nothing else, the 85 participants seem a very enthusiastic and convivial bunch and I'm sure we'll have lots of fun, even if the sum total of human knowledge is not advanced all that far. We badly need to engage with the Irish Electorate a lot more to increase the turnout in the elections, and if the Thinkaboutit campaign makes even a minor contribution to this, it will not have been in vain.

Display:
Can we expect a bit more detail on the activities and conclusions?

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Wed Jan 28th, 2009 at 07:19:23 AM EST
We're just getting started ;-)

There's some background in this piece: A European Blogging Competition

The gender balance of the participants was a lot better than that of the editors team :-)

Other than that, I'll leave it to Frank.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Wed Jan 28th, 2009 at 08:36:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There is always a conclusion - even if it is only agreeing to meet again ;-)

Good that there is more to come - I look forward to taking part.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Wed Jan 28th, 2009 at 08:57:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Here's a picture of us handsome editors:

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Wed Jan 28th, 2009 at 08:32:40 AM EST
Apologies to all.  This was part of a much longer diary I thought I had lost when my PC crashed.  I've only just noticed that a small part of it somehow got published without me pushing the submit button.  I will update the dairy into a much more substantial piece when I get a moment.  Damn.  Those links take a long time to code and now I have to start all over again!

notes from no w here
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Wed Jan 28th, 2009 at 02:00:43 PM EST
Sounds like just one of these days. :-)
by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jan 28th, 2009 at 03:04:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Getting a heavy cold whilst I was in Brussels hasn't helped either!!!

notes from no w here
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Wed Jan 28th, 2009 at 03:23:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks for doing so! The links to John, Daniel and Andreas are still misdirected, somehow having eurotrib.com before their addresses.
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Wed Jan 28th, 2009 at 03:23:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I've already fixed that once.  What the hell is going on!!!

notes from no w here
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Wed Jan 28th, 2009 at 03:24:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
My guess would be that your browser memory is playing tricks on you, or some key (like alt or ctrl or tab) is stuck somehow, or you are using a wysiwyg editor for drafting.

In my experience firefox is getting more errors, at least on windoze.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Wed Jan 28th, 2009 at 03:30:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I had about 12 tabs open, so probably came up against some physical memory constraint.  However the reverting of the links (which were correctly inserted) to some weird ET reference is really strange.

notes from no w here
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Wed Jan 28th, 2009 at 03:41:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
IMO your question on poor information and mention of abysmal PR is the crux of the matter. There cannot be representation without dialogue. And transparent systems for EU dialogue do not exist. There is some level of contact at election time - and then all is forgotten for another 4 years.

I had a long discussion tonight concerning one of the Finnish political parties contending the 13 MEP seats allotted to Finland, in July. Most of this party's candidates will focus on particular regional or national issues in the hope of garnering votes - i.e. not very much concerned with the central issues of the EU.

The other major question I have noted before is the cost of a national campaign - perhaps 3 times that of a more localized parliamentary campaign. This will lead to increasing wooing of celebrities (who come with in-built national recognition) and thus a corresponding increase in amateurishness and a failure of hard-edged representation.

I fear that the EP will remain amateur ofr full of fails (and thus subservient to the EU bureaucracy) until the EP is given a greater say in the structure and conduct of the EU institutions. Until then it is faux-democracy.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Wed Jan 28th, 2009 at 03:47:51 PM EST
Ultimately the Presidents of the Commission and of the Council will have to be directly elected by the Parliament (and the two posts combined into one) to give the EU a real "face" of accountability and democracy.  It's a slow process - there have been improvements since 1979 - and Lisbon would improve things a little further.  But we have a long way to go.

I asked a question about national versus pan European issues dominating the campaigns.  The consensus was that you are talking about 27 distinct elections, not one.

notes from no w here

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Wed Jan 28th, 2009 at 04:04:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, it is a slow process, and I am not against evolution. I am only worried that citizens in those 27 nations will eventually lose interest in that evolution without better top-down communication, and more transparent involvement in decision-making.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Wed Jan 28th, 2009 at 04:14:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It can be even worse. The only way the EP election is making the news right now in France is because Sarko tried to stick two of his "minority" ministers there ; Rama Yade, who had displeased by being too vocal when foreign dictators came to visit, and Dati who was too clearly failing as Justice minister.

Dati, a formerly very close friend of Sarkozy, accepted, whereas the young Yade, who is clearly not as close to the president, refused.

That's not even French politics...

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Wed Jan 28th, 2009 at 07:55:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
the two posts combined into one

I think that's a very bad idea. A permanent President of the European Council is already problematic for making the Council even more influential (we discussed this a lot already), even if the EP picks its head (national governments would have a much stronger incentive to exert influence on MEPs), but your idea would permanently undermine the separation of powers.

give the EU a real "face" of accountability and democracy

I think EP election of the entire commission counts more in that field than that of one single man. (I still don't like Presidential democracy :) )

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu Jan 29th, 2009 at 03:20:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I add: if you really want one real face of accountability and democracy, you would have to advocate direct election of this Commission/Council President, not his/her indirect, EP election.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Jan 29th, 2009 at 03:22:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That point was also raised, and I'm going to replicate someone's (don't know whose anymore) response.

I disagree with that. Except for France, all European countries have their executive formed on the basis of the parliament (well, even France does, largely). I don't think we should aim for a strongly dualistic system.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Thu Jan 29th, 2009 at 04:13:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Only France has a directly elected executive  Presidential system in Europe - Parliamentary democracy is the norm, and I would advocate that for the EU as well - particularly with such a fractured demos.

But I do think the EU lacks a "prime ministerial" figure who is ultimately accountable for what goes on - and visibly answerable to the Parliament.  People just don't understand the separation of powers between the Parliament, Commission and Council and lack a personal or emotional "human" engagement with their leadership.

The US system IMHO on the other hand goes too far in the opposite direction - vesting almost messianic powers and expectations in one person.  That can be very exciting and engaging if it all goes well - but it can also go very wrong...

notes from no w here

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Thu Jan 29th, 2009 at 08:14:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Nitpick: Poland's President also has explicit executive roles. Probably Romania's, too. Russia's, Belarus's, Georgia's and Ukraine's, certainly.

People just don't understand the separation of powers

But those who set up a post should. A post is not all about the public perception. A Commission President answerable to the EP is enough. However, for a stronger sense of this accountability among the people, I think a change at the lower level is more important: an actual contest of ideas and for power between EP-parties, rather than consensus candidates of an eternal Grand Coalition. Otherwise, people won't get the sense that they can elect off a bad Face of Accountability even indirectly.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu Jan 29th, 2009 at 01:01:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The UK system is as much a vote for an individual as for a party.

It's not quite the same as voting for a president, but the differences in practice aren't as obvious as perhaps they should be.

I suspect this isn't really that unusual in the EU.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Feb 3rd, 2009 at 05:31:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
How many people - even here on ET - can list a significant number of policy areas where the European Parliament (as opposed to the Commission or Council) made a decisive contribution?

Well -- what about the Parliament of Ireland? Can you list decisive contributions not spearheaded by the government?

Claiming credit for reducing mobile phone roaming rates within the EU hardly justifies the expense of 750 Parliamentarians over a 5 year period.

I don't like the framing of this -- especially when it is not entirely in the MEPs power to make greater contributions.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu Jan 29th, 2009 at 03:25:38 AM EST
The marginalisation of Parliament is also a particular problem in Ireland - with the "social partners" becoming the key group in negotiating a National Recovery Plan at the moment - as a key example.   However we also don't  have a radical separation between Parliament and executive - as the executive members are also all parliamentarians - and ultimately all their power derives from having a majority in parliament.  The issues of jobs, taxation, economic recovery, law and order, government investment in infrastructure are all very critical issues to people's lives whereas the EP simply doesn't have much competence in these areas to engage with people and make a difference.

notes from no w here
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Thu Jan 29th, 2009 at 08:23:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This isn't so different to elsewhere in the EU, where many countries - and apparently the EU as a whole - seem more interested in democracy theatre than democracy.

Healthy democracy means participation outside of the usual voting circus. But hosting a blogging competition and conference and then excluding bloggers from it because they happen not to be professional journalists shows the incredibly ineptness of the EU's communications people, and their inability to engage with their populations in an effective way.

Frank Schnittger:

The issues of jobs, taxation, economic recovery, law and order, government investment in infrastructure are all very critical issues to people's lives whereas the EP simply doesn't have much competence in these areas to engage with people and make a difference.

Actually it does, and has done, but it has also been very bad at linking positive results to EU/EP influence. So to most people the EP simply doesn't exist as a viable democratic body - it's politically invisible, giving the misleading impression that it's also politically ineffectual.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Jan 29th, 2009 at 09:07:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As I see it, parlamentarians with an entirely independent policy from the government may be fun, but I have nothing against a parliament that functions as a debater and modifier of a government from its midst. (Oh, and elected parliamentarians in ministerial posts seems to be more accountability than people picked from the outside -- say from big corporations --, even if they will be run in the most safe seats by their parties.)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Jan 29th, 2009 at 01:16:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
REACH
Voting the Santer commission out?
Getting rid of the first Berlusconi commissioner?

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Thu Jan 29th, 2009 at 11:56:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Wow 3!  You win the prize.  But then you are hardly stereotypical of the average EP voter!

So is the problem in your view a very poor PR effort by the EP, or the fact that it doesn't have sufficient powers in the first place?

notes from no w here

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Thu Jan 29th, 2009 at 04:33:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Daniel Antal

Bleargh... Though it may be better having him blogging than trying to "reform" railways.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu Jan 29th, 2009 at 03:27:10 AM EST
Aha!  You have previous?  or he has form in your book? His biography lists him as a former senior civil servant.  Seems very young to have had a lot of responsibility in the Civil Service - which in Ireland is very much linked to seniority and length of service.  I haven't had a chance to read much of his stuff, but he seemed a nice guy.

notes from no w here
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Thu Jan 29th, 2009 at 08:28:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Seems very young to have had a lot of responsibility

Yeah, a yuppie.

Daniel Antal

I am a Hungarian economist with a strong interest in institutional reform in new Europe and an occasional essayist in Hungarian daily and weekly papers. My carreer was connected to regulated industries (telecom, banking, energy, railways). I was the Hungarian rail regulator between 1 January 2006 and 30 June 2008. The Hungarian Rail Office was abolished by a governmental decree in June 2008.

<very unbalanced personal opinion>
I first took notice of him for the extreme neoliberalism of his 'occassional essays' prior to his railway forays. Then, not long after I got my job with the railway, he set sights just on our offices. It took some time until he got his Hungarian Rail Office formed, during which time we were in limbo, but then we had to move. (But, funny thing, I never got to encounter him personally during his frequent visits, only saw his English-made car.)

The Hungarian Rail Office was to be an independent regulator in an open-access, free-market re-shaping of the railway sector. However, everyone whose competences Antal wanted to be transmitted to the ÍOffice, and everyone with power to lose in the top echelons of the continually re-organised Hungarian State Railways, resisted every way they could.

A competition where I must state I had no sympathy for either side: as readersd of this blog know, I think open-access on railways is a really bad idea, but also see the current crop of non-railwaymen managers picked to alibi-reform/rationalise a company hamstrung by decades of lack of investment as a bunch of incompetents.
</vupo>

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu Jan 29th, 2009 at 01:36:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I suppose - by definition - a newly created Indepe3ndent Regulator office is going to have a lot of turf wars with those who exercised those powers before.  Also, presumably, he got the job because he was ideological well disposed to the concept of independent regulation/open access.  Open access to previously semi-monopoly utilities in the name of efficiency/competition almost always seems to involve increased prices (to attract operators), reduced investment (to increase short term profits), and ultimately an even more dysfunctional system.

notes from no w here
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Thu Jan 29th, 2009 at 04:40:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Unfortunately only three entrants are being allowed from each country

I saw that as a problem, too.

...I am noticing that all of my contributions here so far were in a negative tone. So I should add that I am curious what comes out of this, congratulate you for catching even Mardell's attention, and wish you success. Give a plug here if you have something up there or saw something interesting by a competitor.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu Jan 29th, 2009 at 03:32:13 AM EST
They started off taking about 3 entrants per country 27*3 = 51 but we ended up with 85 entrants, so they seem to have allowed more people in from the bigger countries in response to a lot of demand. What struck me was that many entrants had not blogged before - and few had written much on politics - and so the exercise seemed to be more about engaging the next generation of journalists with the EU, rather than selecting the best bloggers out there.  Nanne would be more up to speed on how it was organised...

notes from no w here
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Thu Jan 29th, 2009 at 08:34:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The next generation of bloggers is the next generation of journalists. Ten years from now print and video media aren't going to look anything like they do today.

Would it have been so hard for countries to shortlist their top blogs themselves, with perhaps a special section for pan-Euro blogs like ET - and then to base the competition on that?

Really, it probably wouldn't, which makes this conference look suspiciously like a rather pointless PR exercise for the media mainstream, and not so much an attempt to expand blog power for more open ends.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Jan 29th, 2009 at 09:12:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That was my point - it doesn't seem to be about selecting/promoting the best bloggers currently out there, but about recruiting the next generation of journalists to the EU cause - using blogging technology as the hook.  

Having said that, you can't criticise the EU for lousy PR and then also criticise them when they do launch an initiative like this in an attempt to boost voter turnout. However I could see some very good bloggers out there being disappointed that they have been excluded from an opportunity to reach a wider audience.

My sense is that this is more about tapping into the online social networking scene and engaging it with the EU rather than producing a quality of output to rival the MSM.

notes from no w here

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Thu Jan 29th, 2009 at 09:23:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Frank Schnittger:
Having said that, you can't criticise the EU for lousy PR and then also criticise them when they do launch an initiative like this in an attempt to boost voter turnout.

Yes you can, because if the goal was to boost voter turnout, the initiative has been a total PR failure.

You don't boost turnout by farming journalists - you boost it by giving the journalists something exciting and involving to report.

So many EU initiatives, from Lisbon down, seem frankly Weimar-ish - well meaning and not entirely a bad thing in theory, but politically naive and disconnected from the interests of their constituencies.

Where are the pro-EU op-eds? The counter-attacks in the Anglo press which report on and support EP legislation? Where are the EU critiques of the Anglo consensus?

These are all happening in blog space, where they're reaching a small but interested audience, but they're almost non-existent in mainstream journalism.

So a conference to promote more of the same when the pro-EU action is happening elsewhere can hardly be considered a success, surely.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Feb 3rd, 2009 at 05:47:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, a lot of journalism students in there.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Jan 29th, 2009 at 01:04:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I´m really glad to see you are included Frank, and hope you will post your blog link here, or have I missed it?

EU funds + FT + BBC = Another waste of time and effort?

Even though the lack of organizational know-how is patent, this misfit PR scheme can still be put to use IF we get information!  I´ll have to get used to the site because it looks more like another cheekbook dating, than a professional effort.  

My unanswered questions were here:
http://www.eurotrib.com/story/2008/12/5/122551/395#12

  1.  Who are the extras and what´s their role?  

  2.  How will the selected three promote themselves-in country?  If we can read them, support them, comment and get others to participate, we may, just may, get some voter participation.  

  3.  The pre-assumed definition of "blogger = young" continues to hinder, since they have the least experience, even in their journalism field and they may.... reach the same young and little else.  

  4.  Will they blog in their national language?


Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. -Charu Saxena.
by metavision on Sun Feb 1st, 2009 at 07:59:29 PM EST
  1. If you mean the jury, there's a picture in this thread ;) Our role is to provide some support, start discussions and pick the winners. The rules for the competition were set in advance by the EJC, we do, I think, have some minor leeway in terms of the criteria we use.

  2. It's up to each blogger to do self-promotion. I'll try to get some Dutch bloggers to take note and post occassionally on ET. If people on ET have hints related to specific countries, I'm happy to pass them along

  3. Well, as Frank proves, the competitors are not only young ;) We've gotten an interesting mixture, overall, so I think that was mainly advertorial writing

  4. The blog (now live! visit thinkaboutit.eu) is just in English. Every competitor can choose to maintain an outside blog in their native language (and link to that)
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Sun Feb 1st, 2009 at 08:55:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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