Lomborg Wants More Clouds

by Nomad
Tue Oct 27th, 2009 at 05:27:26 AM EST

Despite the difficulties ahead this still is a good introduction:

The countdown to Copenhagen is ticking. Between 7 and 18 December this year, the United Nations Climate Change Conference will take place in Copenhagen, and should result in a successor for the Kyoto protocol, outlining a new framework for mitigating climate change and reducing emissions from green house gasses.

In the meantime, all sorts of people are appearing out of the woodwork to contribute to the discussion their vested interest / hobby horse / scare story / preferred solutions / and so forth. The wrangling continues, and it might be worthwhile to keep track of some, map them out in advance and see how far this sort of public lobbying gets them ahead.

We already know a bit about James Lovelock’s position. IEA’s chief Tanaka announced his faith in Carbon Capture and Storage plants. Now there is Bjørn Lomborg, via an editorial in NRC Handelsblad:

Some proposed climate-engineering technologies – in particular, marine cloud-whitening technology – could be cheap, fast, and effective. (Boats would spray seawater droplets into clouds above the oceans to make them reflect more sunlight back into space, reducing warming). Remarkably, the research suggests that a total of about 9 billion dollars spent implementing marine cloud-whitening technology might be able to offset this entire century’s global warming. Even if one approaches this technology with concerns – as many of us do – we should aim to identify its limitations and risks sooner rather than later.


It appears that climate engineering could buy us some time, and it is time we need if we are to make a sustainable and smooth shift away from reliance on fossil fuels. Research shows that non-fossil fuel energy sources will – based on today’s availability – get us less than halfway toward a path of stable carbon emissions by 2050, and only a tiny fraction of the way towards stabilisation by 2100.

If politicians change course and agree this December to invest significantly more in research and development, we would have a much greater chance of getting this technology to the level where it needs to be. And, because it would be cheaper and easier than carbon cuts, there would be a much greater chance of reaching a genuine, broad-based – and thus successful – international agreement.

Carbon pricing could be used to finance research and development, and to send a price signal to promote the deployment of effective, affordable technology alternatives. Investing about 100 billion dollars annually would mean that we could essentially resolve the climate-change problem by the end of this century.

Though I’m slightly curious whether “getting this technology to the level where it needs to be” means for Lomborg “non-fossil fuel energy sources” or “marine cloud-whitening technology” or both. That sort of ambiguity gets Lomborg every time…

Practically, his proposal summarizes his position he has previously outlined with so many words in his two books The Skeptical Environmentalist and Cool It. And his position is: yes to a carbon tax, and yes to investing on basic energy research.

For a centrist position, that’s actually not all bad. (Which is why the severity levelled against him I often find somewhat off-putting.) When the chips fall down, Lomborg sits on the right side of the argument - anthropogenic climate change is real and needs to be tackled, carbon use should be taxed (but not through carbon credits), and the extra incomes should be invested in development of durable energy.

Lomborg’s swoon with geo-engineering strikes me as somewhat new, and appears to be the product of the new heap of economists he chairs, under the name of the Copenhagen Consensus Center.

So, what is cloud whitening anyway?

Cloud reflectivity enhancement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Cloud reflectivity enhancement is also known as 'marine cloud brightening' or 'cloud whitening'. It is a geoengineering technique that works by solar radiation management. By modifying the reflectivity of clouds, the albedo of the Earth is altered. The intention is that this technique, in combination with greenhouse gas emissions reduction (and possibly other geoengineering techniques) will be sufficient to control global warming. Compared to other climate modification strategies, this technique is relatively simple and benign, being based as it is on natural processes of 'ocean spray'.

Solar Radiation Management (SRM) is only one of a number of packages that fall under geoengineering. Together with Carbon Capture, solar radiation management schemes are the most featured in the press. Probably the proposal of SRM that hits the headlines often is the one with injecting SO2 particles into the atmosphere (as first blogged at ET by technopolitical, one of those diaries that has become a staple read). There have been plenty of arguments why SO2 injection might not be the best of all ideas available, even when it is considered one of the most effective and more cheaper schemes so far proposed.

On the other hand, cloud whitening through spraying sea water might even be doable today, by the use of unmanned Rotor ships. As water droplets don’t last very long in the atmosphere, once the process of spraying is stopped, the effects will wear off quickly.


The future design of a Rotor ship? Image from Climate Change Today.

Still, the effects and results have only been preliminary researched. Initial theoretical calculations suggest that the method is, in potential, effective. From this PDF by Lenton and Vaughan (2009), on cloud whitening:

It has been argued that a 50–100% increase in droplet concentration in all marine stratiform clouds would give rise to an increase in top-of-cloud albedo of 0.02, causing a planetary albedo increase of 0.005, and that this would offset a doubling of atmospheric CO2 (Latham, 2002; Bower et al., 2006). However, an increase in planetary albedo of 0.005 gives a TOA radiative forcing of −1.71Wm−2 5 from Eq. (2), sufficient to offset the present anthropogenic radiative forcing, but not that from a doubling of CO2, as noted in the original source (Charlson et al., 1987). To offset 3.71Wm−2 from doubling CO2 requires a planetary albedo increase of 0.011 (Latham et al., 2008).

snip

Recently the numbers have been revised, considering non-overlapped marine stratiform clouds to cover 17.5% of the Earth’s surface, a required change in top-ofcloud albedo of 0.062 is estimated (Latham et al., 2008). However, the revised calcu15 lation assumes that the change in low-level cloud albedo causes an identical change in planetary albedo, which would be wrong even if the clouds were at the top of the atmosphere.

Instead they are near the surface and the change in planetary albedo could be less than 70% of the change in top-of-cloud albedo, from Eq. (6). Accounting for this, we estimate a required increase in top-of-cloud albedo of 0.091 (Table 1) across 20 all regions of marine stratiform clouds. This is a markedly larger value than the often cited 0.02, but not inconceivable given that such clouds can range in albedo from 0.3 to 0.7. The CCN source required to achieve this change in albedo needs re-quantifying.

Thus there still seems a long, long way ahead from theoretical calculations to practical execution. Even so, for Lenton and Vaughan, cloud whitening through sea level spray seems to pass, but is not considered an optimal solution. For anyone interested in geoengineering schemes, the whole article is a fine read.

But also Lomborg underlines in the editorial that he sees geoengineering as a transitional measure to overcome the gap between carbon-driven energy to durable energy, and not the end-all and be-all. Which, in my opinion, is a saner way to look at geoengineering anyway.

It will be interesting to see how prominently geoengineering projects will feature in the end text of the Climate Change Conference.

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Adding more salt to rain -- I'm not sure this will fly.

11 years to go !
by pi (etrib@opsec.eu) on Tue Oct 27th, 2009 at 05:55:56 AM EST
What is happening in 2020?
by Nomad on Tue Oct 27th, 2009 at 06:09:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
BTW, where is the Tip Jar?

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Tue Oct 27th, 2009 at 06:41:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
20-20 Hindsight?

Skennah Kowa
by Crazy Horse on Tue Oct 27th, 2009 at 07:02:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I wish I'd said that

<...you will, Chris, you will>

Modern conservatives engage in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy: the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.Galbraith

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Tue Oct 27th, 2009 at 12:01:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
2020 Foresight would be my pitch ;-)

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Oct 27th, 2009 at 12:15:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But also Lomborg underlines in the editorial that he sees geoengineering as a transitional measure to overcome the gap between carbon-driven energy to durable energy, and not the end-all and be-all. Which, in my opinion, is a saner way to look at geoengineering anyway.

Hm. An untested technology in what can be said a preliminary research stage as bridge technology for durable energy technologies already in mass-production and deployment? That doesn't seem sane to me.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Oct 27th, 2009 at 06:41:04 AM EST
When discussing geo-engineering, it is often ignored that mass production of currently available durable energy technologies (or those in development) have not been scaled up to global capacity.

I'd argue that a predominant tone of "climate doom" will give groups arguing for geoengineering actually more ground. Note that Lomborg hasn't used his platform in the editorial to downrate effects of severe climate change - not that it is evidence of anything, but I find it noticeable.

by Nomad on Tue Oct 27th, 2009 at 07:14:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
currently available durable energy technologies (or those in development) have not been scaled up to global capacity.

Would geoengineering technologies, once research is over and mass-production began, not need the same for a significant effect?

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Oct 27th, 2009 at 07:19:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Probably depends on the technology considered, wouldn't know.

How much would, say, a mixed package of solar, hydro and wind plus conversation policies cost for generating 90% durable energy of a medium-sized developed country of the Netherlands...?

(Last week the minister of environments professed wanting a 90% reduction in CO2 in 2050.)

by Nomad on Tue Oct 27th, 2009 at 08:41:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Probably depends on the technology considered, wouldn't know.

The article downthread gives 1500 ships for scale. That would indeed imply that the project would have to go through advance research, test bench testing, pilot project, prototype, mass production, and then scaling up to global level. I'd estimate at least ten years.

How much would, say, a mixed package of solar, hydro and wind plus conversation policies cost for generating 90% durable energy of a medium-sized developed country of the Netherlands...?

A lot -- I estimate it's in the €100 billion magnitude at current prices. But we are talking about timescales, not sums of money. If there is will, the Netherlands' conversion could be done in a decade (with a quarter of at least the wind investment coming back by then).

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Oct 27th, 2009 at 09:03:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There's more to SRM geo-engineering than say 1500 Rotor ships. For instance, I'm quite charmed by the idea of olivine beaches, but haven't read up properly to see how much water this idea holds.

Another idea, although it doesn't seem to get off the ground very well, is by Rem Koolhaas, is to fully develop the North Sea for its wind potential. I don't see a price tag for such a project though...

by Nomad on Tue Oct 27th, 2009 at 09:45:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I should have emphasized that I am in total agreement with nanne here: nothing against geoengineering research, especially to have options for quick fixes to runaway heating. But Lomborg's touting of this one geoengineering proposal as bridge technology is preposterous IMO.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Tue Oct 27th, 2009 at 01:43:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
European Tribune - Lomborg Wants More Clouds
And, because it would be cheaper and easier than carbon cuts, there would be a much greater chance of reaching a genuine, broad-based - and thus successful - international agreement.

If you have no faith in Lomborg - as I must confess I do - this reads as geoengineering in order not to have to make carbon cuts. And read from that perspective it makes a whole lot of sense, assuming he is a shill for the coal industry.

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Tue Oct 27th, 2009 at 05:02:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That depends on how fast you want to do it. It should be possible to calculate this with current prices, but the price curve for wind is going downward more steeply than for fossil fuel tech. and the price of solar energy even much more steeply than wind.

It should be possible to do this calculation if we get some coefficients for the energy cost curves of the respective technologies.

If you do it by 2050, I'd bet you will get negative cost because you won't need to retire existing capital stock.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Tue Oct 27th, 2009 at 09:13:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The slippery thing about Lomborg is that he's pretending to be serious about climate change, but this is belied by his actual policy proposals.

He operates in a political environment where flat-out denialism is too far outside the Overton window. So instead he delays and obfuscates the needed political decisions, by pretending that there is a quick engineering fix that will be politically painless.

"Don't worry about phasing out coal-burners - we can CCS them instead." "Don't worry about shifting bulk transportation out of cars - we can make them electric instead." "Don't worry about not meeting climate targets - we can mitigate instead." And, of course, the Really Big Lie that underpins the entire reasoning: "Don't worry about planning for a negative-growth scenario - technology is magic, and will allow us to grow our industrial production forever."

The problem with all of this is that it's half an order of magnitude too little and a quarter century too late.

The truth is that all these impressive feats of engineering (and more) will be required just to maintain a controlled decline in output. And all these impressive feats of mitigation (and more) will be required just to avoid catastrophes. You can forget about "growth" for the next quarter to half century - the agenda now has to be "damage control."

And that truth is backed by simple geophysical reality. Which, unlike our way of life, is not negotiable.

- Jake

"Terraforming your own planet to make it uninhabitable hardly counts as epic win." - ThatBritGuy

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Oct 27th, 2009 at 07:34:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
of Lomborg seem to be shifting. Since he's representing the CCC the focus seems to have moved to geoengineering, durable energy technologies and adaptation. While I've my doubts about the ultimate effectiveness of geoengineering, these are all sensible goals to invest in - although they need to be prioritized properly.

He operates in a political environment where flat-out denialism is too far outside the Overton window. So instead he delays and obfuscates

Instead?

I can't recall Lomborg denying anthropogenic climate change, though I've seen plenty of (IMO unjustified) accusations of that calibre. To the contrary, he has been quite explicit in acknowledging the human role in climate change.

And all these impressive feats of mitigation (and more) will be required just to avoid catastrophes.

Please elaborate.

by Nomad on Tue Oct 27th, 2009 at 09:34:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I can't recall Lomborg denying anthropogenic climate change

Clicky.

That took all of three seconds to find on Google.

And all these impressive feats of mitigation (and more) will be required just to avoid catastrophes.

Please elaborate.

Even if greenhouse gas pollution dropped to zero tomorrow, we would still be in a "damage control" scenario for coral reefs and much of the arctic wildlife. Even if greenhouse gas pollution dropped to zero tomorrow, the North Pole would still have a better than even chance of being ice free before the end of the century. Glaciers in the Rocky Mountains and Himalaya are shrinking, and will keep shrinking for quite a while.

Now, the first of these is arguably not a catastrophe for humans, and the second is a catastrophe only for a number of inuit communities who will see their habitat literally melt away beneath them. But melting glaciers is Trouble, with a capital T: Those glaciers are the headwaters of several rivers that are crucial to irrigated agriculture.

And recall that this is just the effects from what is already in the atmosphere. What Lomborg wants to do is mitigate instead of curbing greenhouse gas pollution. Which is "cheaper" because he assumes a discount rate comparable to what we experienced in the 20th century.

- Jake

"Terraforming your own planet to make it uninhabitable hardly counts as epic win." - ThatBritGuy

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Oct 27th, 2009 at 10:43:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And the page starts with:

In discussing the effects of man-made greenhouse gases on global temperatures, Lomborg does not deny that there may be an effect

The mistake Lomborg makes is that he is being critical of the IPCC while being an economist (see your definition). So he's an amateur. Doesn't make him a denier. (What is a denier these days anyway?)

I'm thrown. What's the difference between mitigating and curbing...? The key word in proposed policies to achieve GHG reduction always was mitigation.

by Nomad on Tue Oct 27th, 2009 at 12:08:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think Jake is exchanging mitigation and adaptation?

It's unclear to me what Lomborg is. He's trained as a political scientist with apparently a focus on quantitative methods. This makes it harder to think of his occassionally inventive use of statistics as mere slips rather than consciously misleading representation. He teaches at a business school.

Lomborg is not a denier, he just happens to oppose most of the plausible forms of climate change action, in which he is akin to most of the other self-styled 'heretics' (Pielke Jr., McIntyre, Gregg 'dumbfuck' Easterbrook, etc.).

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Tue Oct 27th, 2009 at 12:27:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Mitigation is things like geo-engineering so that we don't have to reduce CO2 quite so much.

I reckon that's the difference. It means that more CO2 will actually be there. And with it, no corals, no shells. And the absolute need to keep whatever geo-engineering there will be for a very long time or face a new spike in temperature.

"Few can believe that suffering, especially by others, is in vain. - Galbraith"

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Tue Oct 27th, 2009 at 12:49:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Mitigation of global warming involves taking actions to reduce greenhouse gas emissions and to enhance sinks aimed at reducing the extent of global warming. This is in distinction to adaptation to global warming which involves taking action to minimize the effects of global warming. Mitigation is effective at avoiding warming, but not at rapidly reversing it. Scientific consensus on global warming, together with the precautionary principle and the fear of abrupt climate change is leading to increased effort to develop new technologies and sciences and carefully manage others in an attempt to mitigate global warming.
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Tue Oct 27th, 2009 at 12:59:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't think he's an economist.

Bjørn Lomborg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Lomborg spent a year as an undergraduate at the University of Georgia, earned a master's degree in political science at the University of Aarhus in 1991, and a Ph.D. in political science at the University of Copenhagen in 1994. He has no training in climatology, meteorology, or the physical sciences, but is trained in the use of mathematics and statistics in the social sciences.

He lectured in statistics in the Department of Political Science at the University of Aarhus as an assistant professor (1994-1996) and associate professor (1997-2005). He left the university in February 2005 and in May of that year became an Adjunct Professor at Copenhagen Business School.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Oct 27th, 2009 at 02:53:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Some Lomborg from earlier this year in the WSJ:

The Climate-Industrial Complex - WSJ.com

U.S. companies and interest groups involved with climate change hired 2,430 lobbyists just last year, up 300% from five years ago. Fifty of the biggest U.S. electric utilities -- including Duke -- spent $51 million on lobbyists in just six months.

The massive transfer of wealth that many businesses seek is not necessarily good for the rest of the economy. Spain has been proclaimed a global example in providing financial aid to renewable energy companies to create green jobs. But research shows that each new job cost Spain 571,138 euros, with subsidies of more than one million euros required to create each new job in the uncompetitive wind industry. Moreover, the programs resulted in the destruction of nearly 110,000 jobs elsewhere in the economy, or 2.2 jobs for every job created.

I would love to see some research on that research.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Oct 27th, 2009 at 02:56:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The Copenhagen Consensus panel Lomborg refers to here is entirely composed, otoh, of economists from American universities (three of them RBS Prize in memory of Nobel prize winners).

Cost-benefit analysis that just happens to conclude that taxes are wrong.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Oct 27th, 2009 at 03:10:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In my book, being a PoliSci major from Aarhus is actually a recommendation over being an economics major from Aarhus...

- Jake

"Terraforming your own planet to make it uninhabitable hardly counts as epic win." - ThatBritGuy

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Oct 27th, 2009 at 03:33:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, I wasn't making a value judgement...
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Oct 27th, 2009 at 03:58:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The mistake Lomborg makes is that he is being critical of the IPCC while being an economist (see your definition).

No. I have no problem with the fact that he is an amateur. I have a problem with the fact that his criticism is systematically and consistently dishonest.

I'm thrown. What's the difference between mitigating and curbing...?

Mitigation, in the sense that Lomborg uses it, means building levees to protect against flooding, geo-engineering to reverse warming, capturing and storing carbon (supposedly this is cheaper than simply leaving it in the ground in the first place - methinks Mr. Lomborg needs an introductory class in thermodynamics...) and similar more or less hair-brained schemes.

The key word in proposed policies to achieve GHG reduction always was mitigation.

Mitigation of the pollution sources, not of the consequences of unconstrained pollution.

- Jake

"Terraforming your own planet to make it uninhabitable hardly counts as epic win." - ThatBritGuy

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Oct 27th, 2009 at 03:29:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I have a problem with the fact that his criticism is systematically and consistently dishonest.

And I agree with that. (Doesn't make him a denier...)

building levees to protect against flooding, geo-engineering to reverse warming, capturing and storing carbon

I think this, and nanne's interchange with Cyrille, shows that the meaning of the word "mitigation" in climate policies still needs some wider exposure.

building levees = adaptation (and needs to be done)
capturing and storing carbon = mitigation (and needs to be developed)

Mitigation is, also, reduction of pollution sources.

Some geo-engineering schemes result in mitigation: the reduction of atmospheric carbon. Some ideas appear hare-brained (seeding the sea with iron), others I find poignant (olivine beaches). Other geo-engineering schemes should only be pursued as a last order resort.

What not should happen is relying on geoengineering schemes to continue business as usual. What not should happen either, is ignoring geoengineering altogether and reducing all of the ideas to rubble.

by Nomad on Tue Oct 27th, 2009 at 04:44:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It does not make him a denier per se, as that is an absolute position, you actually have to deny man-made climate change. Within the Scandinavian debate climate such a position is outside the Overton window and not present in the debate. Lomborg is on the inside edge of the Overton window, consistently pulling it towards the position of deniers.

That his absolute position at a certain given point would make him centrist in another debate setting (or on the right side), does not mean that he would have that position. From all I have seen of him, he would be a denier in any climate where it that position is acceptable in the public debate.

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Tue Oct 27th, 2009 at 05:10:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
We appear to have different definitions of "denier." And possibly different experiences with Lomborg.

I go by the definition that inspired the Denialist's Deck of Cards. Lomborg started out with flat denial in his first book. Or something that approximated flat denial sufficiently closely as to be indistinguishable to newsies. Which, since Lomborg is a political actor and not a scientific one, amounts to the same thing.

Once the Overton window shifted enough to push that position out of polite society (around 2004-5, IIRC), he played a straight first hand, skipped over the largely irrelevant second hand (but did pull the 4 of diamonds and the 5 of spades). He's currently playing the third, fourth and fifth hand, with the occasional dip into the sixth hand.

So I think it's safe to say that he's a denier.

- Jake

"Terraforming your own planet to make it uninhabitable hardly counts as epic win." - ThatBritGuy

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Oct 27th, 2009 at 05:12:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I would argue that the disappearance of coral reefs IS a catastrophe for millions of humans (ie for their means of subsistence), and of course to all of humanity in that it makes the world a much duller place.
But coral reefs play a hugely important role in the sea equilibrium.

Then of course, there is the fact that even with no more CO2 into the atmosphere, it's likely that shells and plancton will collapse because of ocean acidity -there is too much carbon already there. That is a major catastrophe.


"Few can believe that suffering, especially by others, is in vain. - Galbraith"

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Tue Oct 27th, 2009 at 12:47:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Someone has to do it...

Ocean acidification. Not acidity. The oceans remain alkaline - for now.

by Nomad on Tue Oct 27th, 2009 at 05:00:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The entire debate around the energy sector including transportation fuel remains a loud socio-political power struggle.  Underneath the noise, the signal that renewable technologies are already in the development of global mass production is lost.

Underneath the noise, the signal that global windpower capacity installation totalled €54B in 2008 alone is lost, and this does not include the ongoing investment in new manufacturing plant and supply chain development, or ongoing public and private R&D.

Add in photovoltaics and the host of active and passive solar technologies, stirred in a mix of aggressive buildout of insulation and other cheap energy-saving technologies (job-friendly), and you have a plain sight solution lost in the noise of entrenched vested interests.

A world which has no respect for the foundation upon which it is built, while "disappearing" key species daily, should not be allowed to discuss geo-engineering.

Occam's Razor Indeed.

Skennah Kowa

by Crazy Horse on Tue Oct 27th, 2009 at 07:21:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Here's a fun piece of a Scientific American article on geoengineering:

Geoengineering: How to Cool Earth--At a Price: Scientific American

In Salter's concept, turbines spun by water moving past the ship would generate the electricity to keep the cylinders spinning and also to spray seawater out the stacks in 0.8-micron droplets. Salter and Latham estimate that 1,500 ships, each spraying eight gallons a second--and each costing $2 million, for a total of $3 billion--could offset the global warming caused by a doubling of CO2. Half the job could be done, according to modeling results from the Met Office Hadley Center for Climate Prediction and Research in Exeter, England, by deploying ships over just 4 percent of the ocean.

Still, no one has modeled how evenly the cooling would spread around the planet. "You could end up with a polka-dotted world, where there are really cold places and really hot places," Battisti says. Another concern is drought downwind of the spray vessels; clouds made of many small droplets last longer, which is desirable in a sunshade, but they also produce less rain.

Finally, just how much brighter the new clouds would be is not known. Existing climate models overestimate the effect: according to them, the aerosols in the atmosphere right now should be canceling global warming, which is manifestly not happening. Rasch has thus started modeling La­tham's idea. "This is one of the parts of climate that we understand most poorly," he says.

Still, as geoengineering schemes go, spraying seawater into the air from wind-powered vessels sounds pretty benign. If anything went wrong, Latham says, you could shut off the spray within days or, at most, a few weeks--whereas sulfuric acid in the stratosphere would stay aloft for years. "It's definitely worth looking into," Wigley says. But only a field test could answer some of the questions about the idea--and so far the only support Latham has received has been from the Discovery Channel. In need of good visuals for a documentary series on geoengineering, television producers funded the construction of a small Flettner ship.

I wonder how many olympic swimming pools that small Flettner ship sprayed up...

From LQD: Geoengineering Ranked
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Tue Oct 27th, 2009 at 07:10:29 AM EST
The greens dislike Lomborg for the way he makes his arguments and for the occassional dishonesty. For instance, Lomborg will call for a (very low) carbon tax mainly as a way of trying to undermine currently agreed climate regimes, or the most likely regime to be eventually agreed upon, as he is doing again in the NRC.

Geoengineering is mainly useful as an emergency brake in the case we do get to warming above 4-5 degrees celcius, or sharply accelerated warming. It is not a rational response to gradual climate change, but it is useful to do more research into the existing options.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Tue Oct 27th, 2009 at 07:25:48 AM EST
The greens dislike Lomborg for the way he makes his arguments and for the occassional dishonesty.

And scientists dislike him for that and the think-tankish 'expert' posture.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Oct 27th, 2009 at 08:06:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And the fact that he's a dishonest political hack.

- Jake

"Terraforming your own planet to make it uninhabitable hardly counts as epic win." - ThatBritGuy

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Oct 27th, 2009 at 08:09:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Bit of a problem with the proposal:

THE GREENHOUSE EFFECT: A Comparative Planetary Perspective: 1990

Water vapor can trap heat too. That is one reason why cloudy nights in summer are the hottest--clouds trap heat, not allowing the Earth to cool as much it would have in the absence of clouds.


No one could have predicted
by ATinNM on Tue Oct 27th, 2009 at 01:18:59 PM EST
Of course, you want to have the right kind of clouds. Nice high-albedo daytime clouds.

And then hope that they don't end up stealing the rain somewhere.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Tue Oct 27th, 2009 at 01:28:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This has been pointed out wrt aircraft contrails too: they work two ways.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Oct 27th, 2009 at 01:38:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Has anyone pointed out that none of the links were working? Or, erm, is nobody following the links? ;)

Nomad, avoid "smart" text editors that put in "smart" quotation marks, they are not parsed as proper html mark-up. And all the links go kaput.

Fixed now.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Oct 27th, 2009 at 01:59:58 PM EST
I noticed that one link didn't work, but I just cut out the self-referencing part and proceeded onwards. So, noticed but not perceived, or something.
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Tue Oct 27th, 2009 at 03:33:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So who knows what the effect on the climate will be of massive super-production of clouds? And the effect on ecosystems of (h/t pi) salt rain?
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Oct 27th, 2009 at 02:02:23 PM EST
Or will the water vapour not be salt?
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Oct 27th, 2009 at 03:00:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's droplets, not vapour. Vaporising it would be prohibitively expensive, energy-wise. Which means that it will be salt.

- Jake

"Terraforming your own planet to make it uninhabitable hardly counts as epic win." - ThatBritGuy

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Oct 27th, 2009 at 03:53:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
European Tribune - Lomborg Wants More Clouds
water droplets don't last very long in the atmosphere

What happens to them? They agglomerate and fall as rain, or, in high enough temperatures, they evaporate... and form more lasting clouds?

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Oct 27th, 2009 at 04:06:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
They could do either. I suspect that salt water would mostly fall as rain, but I'm not a cloud physicist.

But either way, atmospheric water has a very short equilibration time.

- Jake

"Terraforming your own planet to make it uninhabitable hardly counts as epic win." - ThatBritGuy

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Oct 27th, 2009 at 04:10:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
evaporated water blocks thermal IR but allows visible light to pass: surely this would make things worse?
by njh on Wed Oct 28th, 2009 at 07:02:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's partly in the pdf (whose link you fixed, and my thanks for that!) but the best thing for me to say would be: we probably don't know.

Anyway, the idea is that spraying sea water into the atmosphere does not result in salt rain, but in more "cloud condensation nuclei" (in effect, tiny particles) - from which clouds eventually can bud. With more nuclei, more water will be captured, increasing the water density in a cloud (I guess), increasing their albedo. Or that's the idea...

Still I don't think even 1500 ships will be able to generate "massive super-production of clouds". It probably would still be far removed from achieving what one good plinian eruption can do to the atmosphere...

by Nomad on Tue Oct 27th, 2009 at 05:52:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, I don't quite get how this could be a technique for considerably reducing warming on a planetary scale, yet wouldn't really kind of amount to much... If it has the potential to significantly delay warming, it seems logical there could be other significant effects too. The same can be said of most other geo-engineering proposals.

And "research" can only mean small-scale experiments, and modeling. Unintended effects would quite probably only be seen after the process had been launched fullscale (even if the models were moderately successful in identifying some of them).

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Oct 27th, 2009 at 06:13:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
As for the scope of the cloud-whitening project, here's what Lomborg says in the article:

nrc.nl - International - Opinion - Let's not get stuck on carbon emissions

the research suggests that a total of about 9 billion dollars spent implementing marine cloud-whitening technology might be able to offset this entire century's global warming.

No less.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Oct 27th, 2009 at 06:17:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Which is similar to the scale of response described in the pdf:

It has been argued that a 50-100% increase in droplet concentration in all marine stratiform clouds would give rise to <b>an increase in top-of-cloud albedo of 0.02, causing a planetary albedo increase of 0.005, and that this would offset a doubling of atmospheric CO2</b> (Latham, 2002; Bower et al., 2006). However, an increase in planetary albedo of 0.005 gives a TOA radiative forcing of &#8722;1.71Wm&#8722;2 5

I forgot where we currently are with doubling of atmospheric CO2. (Atmospheric CO2 hasn't doubled, but one should consider all GHG together, expressed in CO2 units and compare to the pre-industrial baseline.)

If 1500 ships would actually do the trick, that's another matter. But Lomborg probably used studies, like those of Latham, to make the costs-benefit whoopsee doo analysis.

by Nomad on Tue Oct 27th, 2009 at 06:32:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, but:

European Tribune - Lomborg Wants More Clouds

we estimate a required increase in top-of-cloud albedo of 0.091 (Table 1) across 20 all regions of marine stratiform clouds. This is a markedly larger value than the often cited 0.02
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Oct 28th, 2009 at 03:56:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And so it is.

A number of scientists have calculated that cloud whitening is, in principal, feasible. Lomborg then estimates the cost for a feasible scenario.

There's one step that's not there: the information Lomborg uses to calculate his estimate of a 9 billion cost for a certain reduction in albedo.

With cloud whitening at the centre of Lomborg's argument, that sort of assumptions should be available - or should be made available.

by Nomad on Wed Oct 28th, 2009 at 05:02:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The 9 bn are quite beside my point.

Which is that, if the scale of this proposal is, variously, dealing with a doubling of CO2, or dealing with the CO2 problems of this entire century, or intervening in "all regions of marine stratiform clouds", then that is very considerable and, it may reasonably be inferred, offers the risk of unintended consequences on a concomitant scale.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Oct 28th, 2009 at 05:33:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
European Tribune - Lomborg Wants More Clouds
yes to a carbon tax

Lomborg in the article under discussion:

nrc.nl - International - Opinion - Let's not get stuck on carbon emissions

The panel found that expensive, global carbon taxes would be the worst option.

Compare and contrast.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Oct 27th, 2009 at 03:00:04 PM EST
In Lomborg's world, there's worst and worster:
This finding was based on a groundbreaking research paper that showed that even a highly efficient global carbon dioxide tax aimed at fulfilling the ambitious goal of keeping temperature increases below 2 degrees Celsius would reduce annual world GDP by a staggering 12.9 percent, or 40 trillion US dollars, in 2100. The total cost would be 50 times that of the avoided climate damage. And if politicians choose less-efficient, less-coordinated cap-and-trade policies, the costs could escalate a further 10 to 100 times.

Then imagine what would happen if politicians choose command and control legislation instead of market based instruments. That would be, like, worster than worstest.

Lomborg supports a $7 per ton CO2, slowly accellerating global carbon tax, because that's what comes out as optimal in the equilibrium models of Nordhaus, Tol, Mendelsohn et al.

Of course, he spends most of his energy warning about other policies that would not perform as well, not so much advocating his own preferred policy, which, as I stated above, is one of the two reasons why the green movement despises him.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Tue Oct 27th, 2009 at 03:49:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"a highly efficient global carbon dioxide tax aimed at fulfilling the ambitious goal of keeping temperature increases below 2 degrees Celsius would reduce annual world GDP by a staggering 12.9 percent, or 40 trillion US dollars, in 2100. "

And that is worse than the alternative how? We are on a track for something far, far worse.

"And if politicians choose less-efficient, less-coordinated cap-and-trade policies, the costs could escalate a further 10 to 100 times."

Ah, so cap and trade would reduce GDP from 129 to 1290 percent. That's interesting.

"Few can believe that suffering, especially by others, is in vain. - Galbraith"

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Tue Oct 27th, 2009 at 05:35:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The fact that cap-and-trade is attacked is not always bad... Perhaps one should see this similar to the Tories rooting for someone else than Tony Blair...

Personally, I'm slowly losing my faith in the use of emission trading, so I'd welcome anyone who can show me that it works effectively...

by Nomad on Tue Oct 27th, 2009 at 06:05:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The 'tax or trade' debate is overblown. The governance of the policy matters more than the choice of policy. See this Kevin Drum piece for a practical discussion.
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Tue Oct 27th, 2009 at 06:48:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, but I reckon the governance of cap and trade will more easily degenerate, especially when the trading must be done on a worldwide basis.

"Few can believe that suffering, especially by others, is in vain. - Galbraith"
by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Wed Oct 28th, 2009 at 04:25:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Surely it works better than removing 129 to 1290% of world GDP. You've got to admit that.

I too find cap and trade a much worse solution than taxing the externality. How do you determine the cap?
OK, the obvious answer is how do you determine the externality. But one is a technical problem (though difficult) whereas the other one will be highly political.

On the other hand, when it's attacked with claims that it has the potential to reduce GDP by 1290%, you've got to wonder.

"Few can believe that suffering, especially by others, is in vain. - Galbraith"

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Wed Oct 28th, 2009 at 04:24:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If you had been awarded a Royal Bank of Sweden Economics Prize in Memory of Alfred Nobel, you would understand.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Oct 28th, 2009 at 04:57:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Mmm who do you have in mind? Surely those who did get the prize (even though plenty talked a lot of nonsense) would not imply that GDP could be -4000 trillion dollars.

"Few can believe that suffering, especially by others, is in vain. - Galbraith"
by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Wed Oct 28th, 2009 at 10:28:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
See my comment here on the source of Lomborg's claims.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Oct 28th, 2009 at 11:04:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Not being an economist, I try to stay far away from dabbling with curious remarks like that...

Keeps me a trifle more sane.

The problem, as you say, is political. Which it has always been.

by Nomad on Wed Oct 28th, 2009 at 05:12:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You'd have to go over the calculations in the original study to see how that number of Lomborg can even remotely make sense, but the way it's phrased it simply postulates negative annual GDP.

These are simple calculations. If annual GDP would be reduced by 40 trillion at 12.9%, this means annual GDP would otherwise be around 310 trillion (compared to today's 60 trillion). If you multiply that cost ten times, you get negative GDP by around 90 trillion. Now, negative annual GDP means that there is less economic production in a year than writeoffs of capital stock, and as a ballpark I think you could get this number if nearly everyone dies, but a few humans survive around the poles.

If you inflate it by 100 times you'd need something worster, like maybe the planet earth ASPLODES!

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Wed Oct 28th, 2009 at 06:13:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Having to set the cap in a cap-and-trade scheme is a feature, not a bug. We know roughly what the cap should be in 2050: Zero net emissions. The shape of the reduction is largely a political matter, but once that is decided, all permits could in principle be auctioned off now.

The problem lies on the enforcement side.

- Jake

"Terraforming your own planet to make it uninhabitable hardly counts as epic win." - ThatBritGuy

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Wed Oct 28th, 2009 at 05:23:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
However, when actual reduction happens to exceed that demanded by the cap, the result can be a braking-down of efforts. Prime exhibit: Rasmussen's excuse for stopping the third to fifth off-shore wind warms a few years ago.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Wed Oct 28th, 2009 at 06:55:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's why you auction the permits on a global auction. And it's why you make the number of permits "N tons less than last year's actual emissions."

That way you can't auction off the permits far into the future, of course, but it prevents the problem with slacking off when you're ahead of schedule.

- Jake

"Terraforming your own planet to make it uninhabitable hardly counts as epic win." - ThatBritGuy

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Wed Oct 28th, 2009 at 09:58:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]


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