Perverted ratings helped sink the ship

by Colman
Tue Oct 20th, 2009 at 05:45:31 AM EST

The ratings agencies were part of the system failure that led to the current interesting economic times. McClatchy's explain some of how that happened:
WASHINGTON -- As the housing market collapsed in late 2007, Moody's Investors Service, whose investment ratings were widely trusted, responded by purging analysts and executives who warned of trouble and promoting those who helped Wall Street plunge the country into its worst financial crisis since the Great Depression.

A McClatchy investigation has found that Moody's punished executives who questioned why the company was risking its reputation by putting its profits ahead of providing trustworthy ratings for investment offerings.

Instead, Moody's promoted executives who headed its "structured finance" division, which assisted Wall Street in packaging loans into securities for sale to investors. It also stacked its compliance department with the people who awarded the highest ratings to pools of mortgages that soon were downgraded to junk. Such products have another name now: "toxic assets."

As Congress tackles the broadest proposed overhaul of financial regulation since the 1930s, however, lawmakers still aren't fully aware of what went wrong at the bond rating agencies, and so they may fail to address misaligned incentives such as granting stock options to mid-level employees, which can be an incentive to issue positive ratings rather than honest ones.

Maybe profit-hungry corporations aren't the best people to be issuing the ratings that determine what debt is worth?


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Even without gross incompetence or fraud within the ratings agencies, their interaction with the regulators and investors makes ratings into a systemically destabilizing force. Downratings cause massive sell-offs, predictably and (regulatorily) unavoidably.

Fro Jerome's The Next Domino (Jan 21st, 2008)

AMBAC, the largest of the monolines, was downgraded this week-end by Fitch, the smallest of the 3 rating agencies (Moody's and S&P are widely expect to follow suite soon), after it emerged that its proposed capital-raising plan would not be seen as sufficient and was cancelled. This means that:

  • AMBAC can no longer do any business; clients that were looking to enhance their bonds through them can no longer do so, and will see their borrowing costs increase;
  • even worse, all bonds which are already guaranteed by AMBAC will now lose their own AAA rating, which means that all the investors that need to hold a given proportion of such highly rated paper (and there are a lot of them) are going to need to sell that paper, which no longer fits in their portfolio. This could cause a massive drop in their price if they all sell at the same time, losses for many institutions, and more chaos in the financial system.
And there's close to a trillion dollars of such paper around. We're looking at the mother of all financial stampedes here, if and when the monoline insurers are downgraded by the two big rating agencies...


En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 20th, 2009 at 06:12:31 AM EST
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=a6QpSf.s4NaA

So the county borrows and is convinced by JP Morgan to do some sort of weird debt swap.

The monoline insurer collapses so the bonds are no longer AAA

This triggers buyback for JP Morgan from bondholders

JP Morgan then can, and does, triple rates and accelerate payback.

County collapses.

by rootless2 (redacted) on Tue Oct 20th, 2009 at 06:28:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Isn't this old news? The following has been linked to here on ET repeatedly since it was published in March:

William K. Black: The Two Documents Everyone Should Read to Better Understand the Crisis (March 28, 2009)

The first document everyone should read is by S&P, the largest of the rating agencies. The context of the document is that a professional credit rater has told his superiors that he needs to examine the mortgage loan files to evaluate the risk of a complex financial derivative whose risk and market value depend on the credit quality of the nonprime mortgages "underlying" the derivative. A senior manager sends a blistering reply with this forceful punctuation:

Any request for loan level tapes is TOTALLY UNREASONABLE!!! Most investors don't have it and can't provide it. [W]e MUST produce a credit estimate. It is your responsibility to provide those credit estimates and your responsibility to devise some method for doing so.

Fraud is the principal credit risk of nonprime mortgage lending. It is impossible to detect fraud without reviewing a sample of the loan files. Paper loan files are bulky, so they are photographed and the images are stored on computer tapes. Unfortunately, "most investors" (the large commercial and investment banks that purchased nonprime loans and pooled them to create financial derivatives) did not review the loan files before purchasing nonprime loans and did not even require the lender to provide loan tapes.

And we have been making noises about the unsuitability of the ratings agencies since 2006, if I am not mistaken.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 20th, 2009 at 06:15:09 AM EST
Damn near everything we post here is old news.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Oct 20th, 2009 at 06:24:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
ET - get the news two months early!

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Tue Oct 20th, 2009 at 06:45:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Moody's Investors Service, whose investment ratings were widely trusted, responded by purging analysts and executives who warned of trouble and promoting those who helped Wall Street plunge the country into its worst financial crisis since the Great Depression.


Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Tue Oct 20th, 2009 at 06:44:09 AM EST
You'd think.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Oct 20th, 2009 at 06:48:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But the shareholders embraced what was obviously a highly risky business strategy.

As Moody's openly sold its ratings to the highest bidder, revenues and share prices shot up.

by rootless2 (redacted) on Tue Oct 20th, 2009 at 06:51:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But the shareholders embraced what was obviously a highly risky business strategy.

Did they, or were they decieved?

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Tue Oct 20th, 2009 at 06:52:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Why do you assume the shareholders are any less venal and greedy than the Moody executives?

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 20th, 2009 at 06:54:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A lot of them are pensioners, or index fund holders, or mutual fund holders, or lots of other people who didn't really have any insight into the company, or even knew they had shares in the company.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Tue Oct 20th, 2009 at 06:57:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Let's see.

Mutual funds in the US can only hold "investment grade" debt securities. A downgrade below investment grade therefore forces a sell-off.

The illusion that there is such a thing as safe investments for widows and orphans to put their pensions is a convenient lie for the financial disservices industry.

Solidarity, dude. It means you get a decent state pension and don't have to gamble your savings chasing a return.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 20th, 2009 at 07:02:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yeah, but Moody's certainly been seen as an investment grade paper!

Pensions need not only be through a flat cash payment from the state, especially as the level will be shook by demographic changes. There's nothing wrong with saving money for your retirement in the stock market, as long as you start shifting over the stocks to bonds a decade or so before you're about to retire.

But anyway, let's keep the pension system discussion to another thread.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Tue Oct 20th, 2009 at 07:06:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Starvid:
There's nothing wrong with saving money for your retirement in the stock market, as long as you start shifting over the stocks to bonds a decade or so before you're about to retire.
Yes, what's wrong is the idea that they are any less risky.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 20th, 2009 at 07:13:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Uh... come again?

It's not like I meant CDO's when I said bonds.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Tue Oct 20th, 2009 at 07:42:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Bonds have less price volatility and the coupon income is steadier than stock dividends, but bonds have default risk. So a bond portfolio has less volatility than a shares portfolio, but if you get defaults you lose big chunks of your portfolio in one go. I'm not sure in the long run one is less risky than the other.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 20th, 2009 at 08:20:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But if German sovereign debt goes belly-up, then you have bigger problems than the value of your pension portfolio.

- Jake

Economist (n): A physicist who assumes away friction to make it easier to explain the motion of a wheel.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Oct 20th, 2009 at 08:23:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But German sovereign debt has very low yield compared with other "investment grade" bonds.

So you invest in corporate bonds that yield 5% and then wonder why 1/20 of them default on you any given year :P

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 20th, 2009 at 08:28:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Which is why you have a very well diversified bond portfolio, or a cheap bond fund. You can also make sure the bonds are short term, so you have time to get out if the company/country that issued it starts looking shaky.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Tue Oct 20th, 2009 at 08:41:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Short term bonds are like stop-loss orders: They don't work if everybody is doing it.

- Jake

Economist (n): A physicist who assumes away friction to make it easier to explain the motion of a wheel.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Oct 20th, 2009 at 08:53:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Plus they have lower yields to beging with, and they may not even pay an income.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 20th, 2009 at 08:57:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
and they may not even pay an income.

If they didn't, people would always hold cash instead.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Tue Oct 20th, 2009 at 09:17:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Um, and why do people put their cash in long-term deposit accounts?

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 20th, 2009 at 09:22:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Good question, given that they practically pay no interest rate. Convenience and lack of information on the alternatives. Even lack of alternatives, at least here in Sweden.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Tue Oct 20th, 2009 at 09:27:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And zero default risk, given deposit insurance schemes?

Also, you have proven by example that the amount of information and sophistication necessary to do "safe bond investment" properly probably exceeds that of your average widow or orphan :P

I mean, it did exceed that of the average bond portfolio mutual fund manager, to judge by the fallout from the recent crisis...

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 20th, 2009 at 09:46:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
They work when you hold them to maturity, which can be a short time if you buy that kind of bond.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Tue Oct 20th, 2009 at 09:16:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Only for very specific kinds of short-term bonds. If the commitment that they cover is similarly short (secured operating credit, basically), then it works. But if the commitment that they cover is long (investment credit), then the debtor needs to be able to roll over his loans when they reach maturity.

And currently there is no firewall between investment credit and operating credit. Making such a firewall would probably go a long way towards making banking boring again. But that will be then, and this is now.

- Jake

Economist (n): A physicist who assumes away friction to make it easier to explain the motion of a wheel.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Oct 20th, 2009 at 10:16:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The better-diversified your portfolio the closer the default rate of the bonds in it will approach the long-term average. So, instead of a lottery you pretty much guarantee yourself a constant default rate.

Starvid:

make sure the bonds are short term, so you have time to get out if the company/country that issued it starts looking shaky
But then you have to sell the bond when it's beginning to lose value.

And if everyone follows the same strategy, at the first sign of wobbliness on the part of the issuer there will be a sell-off and your bonds will lose more of their value.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 20th, 2009 at 08:56:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So, instead of a lottery you pretty much guarantee yourself a constant default rate.

That's the idea, not the problem. Feature, not bug.

And if everyone follows the same strategy, at the first sign of wobbliness on the part of the issuer there will be a sell-off and your bonds will lose more of their value.

Not a problem if you have short term bonds and hold them to maturity.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Tue Oct 20th, 2009 at 09:23:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Starvid:

Not a problem if you have short term bonds and hold them to maturity.
But you were supposed to be able to sell them when the issuer gets in trouble. So in that case you don't hold them to maturity but instead sell them.

And in a parallel comment you want to receive coupon payments from the bonds which, if they have maturities not exceeding a year, typically won't pay coupons.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 20th, 2009 at 09:29:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If the maturities are short, there will never ever be any need to sell them prematurely.  Companies don't go from solid to shit in a second. If som they weren't solid to begin with and you shouldn't have bought the bond, unless you're into junk bonds.

It doesn't really matter if you recieve a coupon, or if you but the bond for less than you get back from the issuer, at least if the maturities are short (the bond fund I have has an average amturity of 0.15 years).

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Tue Oct 20th, 2009 at 09:53:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Starvid:
an average amturity of 0.15 years
And what's the return on that?

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 20th, 2009 at 09:56:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
About 0.5 % currently. A year ago it was 5 %.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Tue Oct 20th, 2009 at 10:02:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
See also

Modigliani-Miller theorem

The Modigliani-Miller theorem (of Franco Modigliani, Merton Miller) forms the basis for modern thinking on capital structure. The basic theorem states that, under a certain market price process (the classical random walk), in the absence of taxes, bankruptcy costs, and asymmetric information, and in an efficient market, the value of a firm is unaffected by how that firm is financed.[1] It does not matter if the firm's capital is raised by issuing stock or selling debt. It does not matter what the firm's dividend policy is. Therefore, the Modigliani-Miller theorem is also often called the capital structure irrelevance principle.


En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 20th, 2009 at 08:22:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As with many economics theorems this has the structure

If FALSE then P

by rootless2 (redacted) on Tue Oct 20th, 2009 at 08:35:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But Starvid insists on talking within the If FALSE then frame.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 20th, 2009 at 08:39:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Interesting, but it seems to me that just like the efficient market hypothesis, this is the kind of theorem that is disproved daily, just by watching the capital markets in action.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Tue Oct 20th, 2009 at 08:42:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A lot of them are pensioners, or index fund holders, or mutual fund holders, or lots of other people who didn't really have any insight into the company, or even knew they had shares in the company.

There is nothing wrong with insolvent private pension funds that cannot be solved by better public pensions.

- Jake

Economist (n): A physicist who assumes away friction to make it easier to explain the motion of a wheel.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Oct 20th, 2009 at 08:14:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As long as you're not the one who have to finance the better pension with your tax money. :P

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Tue Oct 20th, 2009 at 08:43:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But I have to finance the pensions with my taxes anyway.

The fact that those taxes are currently collected by the stock exchange does not mean that they are not collected. It only means that the administrative overhead is greater, and introduces a couple of extra middlemen who have to get a cut.

- Jake

Economist (n): A physicist who assumes away friction to make it easier to explain the motion of a wheel.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Oct 20th, 2009 at 08:56:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But I have to finance the pensions with my taxes anyway.

No you don't, and with a system where everyone (forcibly) saves money for her own account, you do not have to deal with the intergenerational problems and imbalances arising from a change in the age structure.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Tue Oct 20th, 2009 at 09:25:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The point is that, if you have a system where people expect x% of GDP to be paid out to pensioners, it doesn't matter whether the x% of GDP is obtained from taxes or from the capital markets. In fact, the capital markets have higher overhead costs.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 20th, 2009 at 09:33:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I doubt it. Demographical change seems to be far more damaging to the saving strategy than to public pensions. If the ratio of active and retired persons changes in a tax financed scheme a linear adjustment of the contribution will suffice.
In an asset backed scheme a youth bulge will drive up all asset classes and the following retirement will drop them like lead.

The plural of anecdote is bullshit.
by generic on Tue Oct 20th, 2009 at 09:38:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Except that youth bulges in a single state strike hard at public pen sion schemes, while the capital markets are affected by the average of youth bulges, and as different countries hit the demograpihic rollover att different times, it will have a smoother effect on capital markets.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Tue Oct 20th, 2009 at 09:55:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In practice that would mean investing outside the EU and probably in non OECD countries. There aren't that many developing countries I'd bet my retirement on being stable for the next forty years.

The plural of anecdote is bullshit.
by generic on Tue Oct 20th, 2009 at 10:04:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Nope. Lots of non-OECD companies have a very large fraction of their business in developing countries. Like ABB, HSBC, Siemens, AREVA and so on.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Tue Oct 20th, 2009 at 11:04:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No you don't, and with a system where everyone (forcibly) saves money for her own account, you do not have to deal with the intergenerational problems and imbalances arising from a change in the age structure.

No pension fund stockpiles wheat in big silos in the harbour for distribution to retirees. What they stockpile is claims over value. The goods still have to be produced when those claims over value are to be redeemed. Whether those goods are claimed as profits for a pension fund portfolio or as taxes for the government makes little difference to the person who produces them, except inasmuch as government pensions have considerably lower overhead costs.

- Jake

Economist (n): A physicist who assumes away friction to make it easier to explain the motion of a wheel.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Oct 20th, 2009 at 10:26:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, many of them, presumably were deceived by the managers of the mutual funds that invested supposedly on their behalf, but it's hard to imagine how a direct investor in Moody's could have imagined that there was a sustainable business model absent magic.
by rootless2 (redacted) on Tue Oct 20th, 2009 at 06:57:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
People wanted to be deceived. Both the mutual fund managers and the widows and orphans did.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 20th, 2009 at 07:03:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
However, we do not grant the operators of e.g. Nigerian scams, the benefit of such an argument. The willing gullibility of ones victims is not an excuse.
by rootless2 (redacted) on Tue Oct 20th, 2009 at 07:05:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Nigerian scammers aren't serious, and they haven't been to the right schools. They're not supported by a lobbying industry, and a self-referential 'academic' justification and indoctrination industry.

Also, they're not white and not rich.

Apart from that - yes.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Oct 20th, 2009 at 07:08:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And the willing gullibility of government officials and economic advisors who design the incentives (mostly tax) for people to put their savings into the securities markets? What do we call that?

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 20th, 2009 at 07:12:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
and then we go to the willing gullibility of the voters who return such people to office.

A veritable Ponzi scheme of gulls.

by rootless2 (redacted) on Tue Oct 20th, 2009 at 07:15:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
People wanted to be deceived. Both the mutual fund managers and the widows and orphans did.

However, the time had come, as in all periods of speculation, when men sought not to be persuaded of the reality of things but to find excuses for escaping into the wide new world of fantasy.

- Galbraith, The Great Crash of 1929

Economist (n): A physicist who assumes away friction to make it easier to explain the motion of a wheel.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Oct 20th, 2009 at 08:17:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And now, they're going down.

Credit-rating firms' shares plunge on subprime-related court ruling | Money & Company | Los Angeles Times

Investors who believe that major credit-rating firms should be held responsible for their disastrously optimistic ratings of subprime-mortgage bonds have won at least an interim victory.

U.S. District Judge Shira Scheindlin in New York ruled late Wednesday that Moody's Investors Service and Standard & Poor's can't invoke the 1st Amendment to hide from subprime-related legal challenges.

The decision triggered heavy selling of shares of Moody's parent Moody's Corp. and S&P parent McGraw-Hill Cos. on Thursday. Moody's slid $1.84, or 7%, to $24.26. McGraw-Hill's shares tumbled $3.30, or 10.2%, to $29.01.

(seen in the Salon)

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 20th, 2009 at 06:54:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The shareholders of Moody's, sure. But what about the shareholders of the companies they were rating?
by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Tue Oct 20th, 2009 at 06:57:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The people who really have a claim, at least morally, are the taxpayers/ratepayers who find that the collapse of monoline insurers triggers derating by ratings companies that have already shown themselves to be committing fraud in their ratings.

It would be very interesting to see someone sue e.g. JP Morgan on the basis that Morgan bankers knew that both that the ratings companies were not producing ratings based on anything and that the insurance companies were engaged in high risk business and neglected to warn bond issuers of these risks.

by rootless2 (redacted) on Tue Oct 20th, 2009 at 07:02:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Around Moody's there is a vast web of failed fiduciary duty.
by rootless2 (redacted) on Tue Oct 20th, 2009 at 06:49:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I guess putting the word 'poor' into Standard and Poors wasn't enough of a clue.
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Oct 20th, 2009 at 07:09:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There should be a market for a book called "Karl Marx's secret's of investing" in which we explain "false consciousness", the difference between exchange and use values, and the tendency of falling rates of profit to spark risky investments.

Maybe make up something about Engels success on the markets. Some masonic/templar stuff thrown in for the frisson?

What do you think?

by rootless2 (redacted) on Tue Oct 20th, 2009 at 08:10:39 AM EST


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