Welcome to the new version of European Tribune. It's just a new layout, so everything should work as before - please report bugs here.

Obama Wins Nobel Peace Prize

by Frank Schnittger Fri Oct 9th, 2009 at 08:07:35 AM EST

In a triumph of hope over achievement, President Obama was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize today for "his extraordinary efforts to strengthen international diplomacy and cooperation between peoples" according to the Nobel Committee. It's amazing what a few good speeches and switching the focus of attack from Iraq to Afghanistan can do.

However perhaps the Nobel Committee were not so much rewarding his achievements as trying to influence his future actions as debate in Washington rages over whether to escalate the war in Afghanistan. President Obama is not the first reforming US President to be bounced into a military quagmire by the military industrial complex - President Kennedy suffered a similar fate in the early 1960s and his assassination put paid to his re-evaluation of that war effort.


Obama is the fourth US President to be awarded the prize, following Theodore Roosevelt in 1906, Woodrow Wilson in 1919, and Jimmy Carter (a long time after he left office) in 2002.  At least these Presidents had some real achievements to their name.  Let's hope that Obama's award - like that of Henry Kissinger - does not cheapen the world's most prestigious honour.


Perhaps this honour will strengthen the hand of the "doves" in Washington who seem to be fighting a losing battle against the hawks trying to get Obama to commit more troops to the war in Afghanistan.

However the comparison with Kissinger is perhaps apt.  Has Obama yet shown that he is anything other than a Realpolitik practitioner when it comes to foreign and domestic policy?  The contrast with the ideological neo-conservatives of the Bush era has been so great that it has been possible for Obama to differentiate himself from his predecessor without challenging the dominant interests in Washington in any significant way to date.

Even his much touted health care reforms are predicated on a deal with Big Pharma to guarantee their long term revenues in return for their support for his Health Insurance reforms.  There has been virtually no progress on financial regulatory reform, and progress on climate change regulation has been desultory to date.  Perhaps Obama's appearance in Oslo on December 10th. will coincide with a visit to the UN Climate Change conference in Copenhagen and a dramatic initiative on Climate change.

We can but hope, but perhaps this isn't so much about Obama and more about the world welcoming the US back into the comity of nations aka the civilised world? It would be a real pity if the inventors of hype and spin took from this award the lesson that all that was needed to gain the support and approval of the world was to appoint a better PR guy.

We need to see some real progress on the Middle East, Climate Change, Global Financial Regulation, and disarmament. Let this be a spur to greater ambition and achievement and not an excuse for a self-satisfied conclusion by the US ruling class that the world now endorses US policies without ever having to change them very substantially from the Bush regime.

Display:
European Tribune - Obama Wins Nobel Peace Prize
Perhaps this honour will strengthen the hand of the "doves" in Washington who seem to be fighting a losing battle against the hawks trying to get Obama to commit more troops to the war in Afghanistan.

...

We can but hope.

Your last line says it all - Obama's Peace Price, the audacity of hope.

Or the hope for some audacity.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Oct 9th, 2009 at 06:46:09 AM EST
Oops - I see you have gazumped me in the time between checking that no one else on ET had covered the story and thinking about and writing this diary.

Interestingly, our takes are broadly similar.

notes from no w here

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Fri Oct 9th, 2009 at 06:51:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Frank Schnittger:
Interestingly, our takes are broadly similar.
That's not really susprising, is it?

Is there another take on this?

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Oct 9th, 2009 at 07:04:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Is there another take on this?

Let's just hope it isn't a case of group think here!

I'm sure the wingnuts, conspiracy theorists, and true believers will all have different takes...

notes from no w here

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Fri Oct 9th, 2009 at 07:16:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
How about the serious people? Will they be fawning over the forward-thinking Oslo committee in the editorials of the mainstream press?

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Oct 9th, 2009 at 07:22:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
like this?

No Bush policy has changed. Iraq is still occupied. The Guantanamo torture prison is still functioning. Rendition and assassinations are still occurring. Spying on Americans without warrants is still the order of the day. Civil liberties are continuing to be violated in the name of Oceania's "war on terror."

Apparently, the Nobel committee is suffering from the delusion that, being a minority, Obama is going to put a stop to Western hegemony over darker-skinned peoples.

The non-cynical can say that the Nobel committee is seizing on Obama's rhetoric to lock him into the pursuit of peace instead of war. We can all hope that it works. But the more likely result is that the award has made "War is Peace" the reality.



Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Fri Oct 9th, 2009 at 07:47:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
or this?

   "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that Day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition."
    2 Thessalonians 2:3

"Surely, there is at this day a confederacy of evil, marshalling its hosts from all parts of the world, organizing itself, taking its measures, enclosing the Church of Christ as in a net, and preparing the way for a general apostasy from it.

Whether this very apostasy is to give birth to Antichrist, or whether he is still to be delayed, we cannot know; but at any rate this apostasy, and all its tokens, and instruments, are of the Evil One and saviour of death.

Far be it from any of us to be of those simple ones, who are taken in that snare which is circling around us! Far be it from us to be seduced with the fair promises in which Satan is sure to hide his poison!

Do you think he is so unskillful in his craft, as to ask you openly and plainly to join him in his warfare against the Truth?



Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Fri Oct 9th, 2009 at 07:55:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
m'k. I'm back with a classic.

John Bolton, a U.N. ambassador in the Bush administration, told FOX News that the award will give leverage to Obama advisers opposed to sending more troops to Afghanistan at the request of commanders.

"I think those who don't want a massive increase in troops will now be saying, 'But Mr. President, you just won the Nobel Peace Prize, how can you agree to 40,000 more troops on the ground,'" he said.

For others, the award reinforces conservative criticism that Obama's hesitation to wield the threat of greater military force in Afghanistan demonstrates weakness, said John Wobensmith, a senior fellow for international diplomacy at the American Foreign Policy Council and a national security official in the Reagan and first Bush administrations.

Or wingnuts crack whip. Obama cowers on stool. Tough on Terr'ism 'til '12. mmmhmmm.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Sat Oct 10th, 2009 at 01:17:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
My take too, along with the opinion of the whole right-wing in the US.  Damn I hate agreeing with them.

I heard this on the way in this morning and thought I must be still asleep.  This might be even sillier, though less perverse, than awarding it to Kissinger.

"I said, 'Wait a minute, Chester, You know I'm a peaceful man...'" Robbie Robertson

by NearlyNormal on Fri Oct 9th, 2009 at 12:02:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The only advantage of the right wing criticising him for not having done anything yet is that that criticism can be neutered if/when he actually does have more of a track record.

notes from no w here
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Fri Oct 9th, 2009 at 12:13:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
... critical.

As an insider to the deliberations recounted, on condition of anonymity: "The example of Barrack Hussein Obama revealed by the information provided by Fox News gives true hope to us all. To think that one man can move from being a supporter of domestic terrorism, and totalitarian regimes of both the left and right, to being the inspiring leader for the US toward slightly less war than before ... in contrast to the previous incumbent, who moved from Compassionate Conservative who rarely turned up for work to an unbridled warmonger in under a year, the journey revealed to us by Fox News' inside accounts offer a message of hope in war torn countries throughout the world."


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Fri Oct 9th, 2009 at 04:54:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ai~! and there's the rub.

For two successive election cycles, the USians have elected criminals and morons, have voted distinctly against their class (not that Kerry and Gore were struggling with mortgages, but did anyone total the investments and BigPharma/War/Insurance connections of Bush/Cheney/Cabinet?), and made complete fools of themselves around the world with plodding plotting plodding militarists.

Kerry and Gore, did not fight like Obama did, did not work with luck the way that Obama did, did not get trapped by 'color of the suit' and the 'swift boat' crowd, and despite the errors of McCain/Palin, could have lost in the America that we know. But didn't.

The confusion in europe, about how could these people who they had long somewhat respected, how could they be so fooled by a deplorably rich, deplorably anti-social asshole, to get them to think that he was one of them, and get the populace to vehemently support obvious evil...it will never be understood. And imagine, (in this hypothetical thinking of the Nobel committee) what perplexity would have been involved in an EU drained by the unanswerable question of "How could they have elected these bobbing head morons, even worse that what was there before." I submit, all the excess mental power of the entire EU has been saved enough energy to have deserved many Nobel points.

Perhaps the award is for just getting through the billions of dollars election rat-race with a terrorist name and color, and for not letting the Americans (in the north of Mexico America and south of Canada America) elect another complete and untenable ass.

And perhaps...and even more likely, the Nobel's are able to see into alternative universes. Perhaps they see the Palin White House (after a mysterious terrorist-caused death of McCain.) Perhaps they see her 'bomb bomb bomb'ing Iran in memory of the fallen VietBrainwashed fool whom the conservatives talked down. Perhaps they see the Health Care Bill that she pushes through, giving a GuaranteedSedativePlan to all Americans, first to those who object.


Never underestimate their intelligence, always underestimate their knowledge.

Frank Delaney ~ Ireland

by siegestate (siegestate or beyondwarispeace.com) on Sat Oct 10th, 2009 at 04:06:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
... they gave it to Aung San Suu Kyi, who has not yet brought down the drug-money-financed military junta that rules Burma. Obama did help bring down an illegitimate regime that invaded a foreign country on a false pretext, based in part on a willful misreading of a UN resolution, instituted a formal program of torture, and engaged in un-Constitutional actions such as mass wiretaps of its own population.

In those kinds situations, its not always perfection that the Nobel committee demands.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sat Oct 10th, 2009 at 09:03:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Obama did help bring down an illegitimate regime

I'm not letting that slide. This statement is a romance. You attribute a political agency to Mr Obama that simply did and does not exist and ascribe illegitimacy to GWH's elections and the period of his administration that is not supported by the either facts of federal governance, legal remedies, or popular apprehension of federal foreign and domestic policies, denoted by regular opinion surveys.

The former representation of "regime" and legitimacy --statutes-- continues re-affirmed, although certain persons associated with the the incumbent's party apparatus have vacated their offices in the White House and executive agencies, where these individuals interpreted and implemented US Code in a manner that disturbed status quo but did not invoke formal and unequivocal repudiation by colleagues in either the Congress or judiciary.

(FISA lately: DoJ Appeals Telecoms' "intra-agency" Privileges>; GITMO lately: 93-7 for $63B, amdts, H.R. 2346)

Mr Bush, unlike Mr Bloomberg ironically, did not attempt to flout term limits. So scheduled transfer of presidential authorities --however ill-conceived-- was never in doubt except in propaganda published by Democratic Party flâneurs, opposed to any Republican Party candidate. Mr Obama helped no one but himself by declaring his Democratic Party candidacy for POTUS, then faithfully executing somewhat spectacular publicity and fundraising stategems devised by Axelrod et al.

Mistaking the entertainment value his performances provided the millions for a class of political revolution, or "regime" change, is a common error.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Sat Oct 10th, 2009 at 03:20:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The confusion in europe, about how could these people who they had long somewhat respected, how could they be so fooled by a deplorably rich, deplorably anti-social asshole, to get them to think that he was one of them, and get the populace to vehemently support obvious evil...it will never be understood.

All we have to do is look at Burlesqueoni. But then again, the US is not supposed to be like Italy.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Oct 10th, 2009 at 03:48:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Just be grateful that he didn't get it in Economics, for saving the world from a big depression.

Oh, wait. They haven't announced the prize yet. Three more days until we'll know for sure.

by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Fri Oct 9th, 2009 at 06:51:19 AM EST
Surely Gordons got a lock on that one, after his statesman of the year award.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri Oct 9th, 2009 at 06:57:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
we may laugh, but getting the Stimulus plan through Congress and restoring "confidence" on Wall Street world  markets are probably his greatest achievements to date.

notes from no w here
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Fri Oct 9th, 2009 at 06:58:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Did that pass before the close of nominations?

Maybe they will give the Nobel Prize to Paulson for TARP, or to Bernanke for

his extraordinary efforts to use the helicopter as a monetary policy tool


En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Oct 9th, 2009 at 07:01:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hundreds of people get nominated for all sorts of reasons -presumably the award committee take into account all factors up to the date of the award - rather than just the closing date for nominations.

They may also be trying to increase the profile of the award itself by awarding it to the world's most high profile personage.

The business of giving awards is as much about attracting attention to yourself as to the recipient...

notes from no w here

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Fri Oct 9th, 2009 at 07:14:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Frank Schnittger:
They may also be trying to increase the profile of the award itself by awarding it to the world's most high profile personage.
This may have backfired in this instance...
The business of giving awards is as much about attracting attention to yourself as to the recipient...
I once attended an event where the most surreal part was when the host organization awarded honorary membership to a guest speaker, and the guest speaker awarded honorary membership in her organization to the head of the hosting organization.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Oct 9th, 2009 at 07:23:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
an event where the most surreal part was when the host organization awarded honorary membership to a guest speaker, and the guest speaker awarded honorary membership in her organization to the head of the hosting organization

I don't think you told before that you once attended the Eurovision Song Contest.

by Nomad on Fri Oct 9th, 2009 at 07:41:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think Mig is allowed to have a few dark secrets...

notes from no w here
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Fri Oct 9th, 2009 at 07:43:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, it was more embarrassing than that.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Oct 9th, 2009 at 08:43:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I would have thought that the Nobel Peace Prize wasnt something that needed to increase its profile,  (Unless its a subtle competition, and the peace prize comittee thinks that the Physics prize comittee has been getting all the cool guests at their parties recently)

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri Oct 9th, 2009 at 07:48:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
(Unless its a subtle competition, and the peace prize comittee thinks that the Physics prize comittee has been getting all the cool guests at their parties recently)

Things would have to get really bad for the physicists to get the kewl ppl at their parties...

- Jake

Austerity can only be implemented in the shadow of a concentration camp.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Fri Oct 9th, 2009 at 08:17:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And you should know, having only recently left the party!

notes from no w here
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Fri Oct 9th, 2009 at 08:21:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Of course, instead of the kewl ppl, the physicists get people who can actually hold a string of thoughts in their head for more than fifteen seconds, and are prepared to follow a chain of logic to an unpleasant conclusion.

Rather like ET, actually, but with more jokes about Heisenberg.

- Jake

Austerity can only be implemented in the shadow of a concentration camp.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Fri Oct 9th, 2009 at 08:41:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I was never sure about Heisenberg...

notes from no w here
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Fri Oct 9th, 2009 at 08:54:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
well it depends how closely you look.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri Oct 9th, 2009 at 09:30:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That would have had to be a joint prize, including the Chinese as well for sure, and since they often scale to the task at hand, the Ozzies as well.

Of course, with the Nobel Memorial prize committee, they'd give it for the nearly useless TARP policy rather than for the Stimulus spending.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sat Oct 10th, 2009 at 09:06:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hi Frank, 'gobsmacked' indeed - very mixed comments from the 'experts and pundits' in Norway.

Most positive is Jan Egeland - the previous, successful Undersecretary-General for the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA) (now; Director of the Norwegian Institute of International Affairs (NUPI)).

My translation from the Norwegian (interview in Aftenposten:

- Jeg synes dette er en strålende pris. Jeg er glad for at komiteen er i stand til å vente til siste sekund før de bestemmer seg, for jeg tror at det var Obamas atomresolusjon i New York (24. september, red.anm), som innebærer begynnelsen på slutten for atomvåpnene, som var utslagsgivende her.

I believe this is an excellent award. I am glad that the Committee is able to wait until the last second before making up its mind, because I believe that it was Obama's nuclear resolution in New York [24 September], which entails the end of the nuclear weapons, which was decisive here.

- Det er ikke naivt å gi ham prisen, fordi det er presedens for at man skal inspirere til handling. Det man ikke minst gjør her, er å sende et sterkt signal til disse sure grinebiterne som sitter på gjerdet rundt om i Europa, og for den del i en splittet amerikansk opinion, som sier at det Obama prøver å få til bare er masse store ord.

It was not naive to award him the prize, because there is precedence for inspiring [future] action. What is - not the least - done here, is to send a strong signal to these surly grouches [ouch] sitting on the fence around Europe, and, for that matter a split American public, who say that what Obama is trying to achieve are only big words.

- Jeg har møtt Obama ved flere anledninger, og hadde blant annet en fantastisk samtale med ham da jeg var undergeneralsekretær i FN. Han ga meg personlig støtte for det arbeidet jeg gjorde i forhold til Darfur, og hadde en sjelden holdning blant amerikanseke politikere om at USA måtte hjelpe FN i å lykkes.

I have met Obama on several occasions, and, among others [conversations - not people], had a fantastic conversation with him when I was USG in the UN. He gave me personal support for the work I did in relations to Darfur, and had a rare attitude amongst American politicians that the US had to assist the UN in succeeding.

- Jeg var like overrasket som alle andre over at Obama vant prisen. Det viser at komiteen er blitt like oppdatert som en nettavis. Vi er vant til at komiteen er ganske treg. Prisen til Martti Ahtisaari i fjor kom jo minst tre år for sent.

I was as surprised as everyone else that Obama won the prize. It demonstrates that the Committee is just as up-to-date as an online paper. We are accustomed to the Committee being fairly slow. The prize to Martti Ahtisaari last year was at least three years late.

by ask on Fri Oct 9th, 2009 at 08:36:00 AM EST
ask:
the Committee is just as up-to-date as an online paper
And just as durable?

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Oct 9th, 2009 at 08:42:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
when they state that something is "fantastic" or 'incredible'. They might be correct.

paul spencer
by paul spencer (spencerinthegorge AT yahoo DOT com) on Fri Oct 9th, 2009 at 11:30:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I've seen it described as "surprising and exciting" news.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Oct 9th, 2009 at 11:35:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]


Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Fri Oct 9th, 2009 at 09:15:42 AM EST
A funny thing a Swedish blogger aquaintance of mine wrote about this:

"It's pointed out here and there that Barack Obama isn't more impossible as a Nobel peace prize winner compared to many of his predecessors. But there is still an important difference. People like Yassir Arafat, Kofi Annan and Henry Kissinger got the prize for things they hadn't done. Obama gets the prize for things he's expected not to do in the future."

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Fri Oct 9th, 2009 at 09:27:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
... the US entered a period of illegitimate rule in 2000, with institutionalized torture, invasion of a foreign country without even the cover of proper international sanction, and extra-Constitutional mass wiretaps of the American populace.

Ending that and returning to legitimate government is something quite important that President Obama has not done.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sat Oct 10th, 2009 at 09:09:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You and Cat downthread seem to be in disagreement over whether Bush' rule was illegitimate. I think Cat agrees with Al Gore that it wasn't.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Oct 10th, 2009 at 03:46:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Cat is free to agree with Al Gore whether George Bush's election was legitimate - I do not criticize Al Gore in saying that I disagree, that taking the office of President after a a State Sec'y of State in a state government headed by your Brother certifies an election result that is contrary to the votes cast would have been condemned as an unrealistic plot twist in a novel written in 1999, and the author would have been accused of trying to paint the US as a banana republic.

However, be that as it may, extra-constitutional governance by a legitimately elected President is also illegitimate rule. Mass wiretapping of US citizens is not something that can be made legitimate by Congressional action, torture is not something that can be made legitimate by a DoJ memo, and going to war after deliberately misrepresenting the danger posed by the target to Congress and the nation at large is not something that can ever be made legitimate.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sat Oct 10th, 2009 at 04:25:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
NATO. Which celebrate 60 years this year.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Sat Oct 10th, 2009 at 06:52:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
... for being in only one war at a time?


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sat Oct 10th, 2009 at 08:26:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Cat appears to agree with the proposition that because the establishment says something is legitimate, ipso facto it is legitimate.  Generally speaking we attempt to maintain our own independent standards of legitimacy here, and partisan control of the electoral process does not conform to my standard of legitimacy.

notes from no w here
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Sun Oct 11th, 2009 at 08:59:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
PRESS RELEASE
FOR JUSTICE FOR IRAQ:
LEGAL CASE FILED AGAINST
FOUR US PRESIDENTS
AND FOUR UK PRIME MINISTERS
FOR WAR CRIMES, CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY
AND GENOCIDE IN IRAQ

Date: 7 October 2009

MADRID: Today the Spanish Senate, acting to confirm a decision already taken under pressure from powerful governments accused of grave crimes, will limit Spain's laws of universal jurisdiction. Yesterday, ahead of the change of law, a legal case was filed at the Audiencia Nacional against four United States presidents and four United Kingdom prime ministers for commissioning, condoning and/or perpetuating multiple war crimes, crimes against humanity, and genocide in Iraq.

This case, naming George H W Bush, William J Clinton, George W Bush, Barack H Obama, Margaret Thatcher, John Major, Anthony Blair and Gordon Brown, is brought by Iraqis and others who stand in solidarity with the Iraqi people and in defence of their rights and international law.

bold mine

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Oct 9th, 2009 at 09:16:23 AM EST
Indeed you are bold...

notes from no w here
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Fri Oct 9th, 2009 at 09:24:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Washington Post Poll of

Does U.S. President Barack Obama deserve to have won the 2009 Nobel Peace Prize?

Note interesting use of graphics

notes from no w here

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Fri Oct 9th, 2009 at 09:21:57 AM EST
LOL! Nobel prize for cheating with charts!!
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Oct 9th, 2009 at 09:24:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Weird. I got a similar graph, only the blue bar was smaller, the red one said 50%, and the X axis said "50% 50% 50% 50%."
by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Fri Oct 9th, 2009 at 09:54:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I've linked to the actual graph, and it is changing as more votes come in.  But the display software appears to have gone seriously awry

notes from no w here
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Fri Oct 9th, 2009 at 10:00:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Either that, or the Post has taken the idea of journalistic "balance" to an Orwellian extreme...
by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Fri Oct 9th, 2009 at 10:11:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Okay, setting aside the fact that he shouldn't be awarded the prize, that's the second most dishonestly presented chart I have ever seen.  It's a distant second behind the WSJ's Laffer Curve chart, but it's pretty damned bad.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Fri Oct 9th, 2009 at 10:02:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
They've changed the baseline - its seems to be changing all the time...

notes from no w here
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Fri Oct 9th, 2009 at 10:11:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes there is a God!  I feel renewed!  Born again!
The light of day burns the parasitic vampire establishment of the western world!

I want the T-shirt copyright!
The "Illuminati" just called you a retard"
What say you world!

I can hear angelic trumpets in heaven!

by Lasthorseman on Fri Oct 9th, 2009 at 09:35:55 AM EST
Announcement | Nobels fredspris

The Norwegian Nobel Committee has decided that the Nobel Peace Prize for 2009 is to be awarded to President Barack Obama for his extraordinary efforts to strengthen international diplomacy and cooperation between peoples. The Committee has attached special importance to Obama's vision of and work for a world without nuclear weapons.

Obama has as President created a new climate in international politics. Multilateral diplomacy has regained a central position, with emphasis on the role that the United Nations and other international institutions can play. Dialogue and negotiations are preferred as instruments for resolving even the most difficult international conflicts. The vision of a world free from nuclear arms has powerfully stimulated disarmament and arms control negotiations. Thanks to Obama's initiative, the USA is now playing a more constructive role in meeting the great climatic challenges the world is confronting. Democracy and human rights are to be strengthened.

Only very rarely has a person to the same extent as Obama captured the world's attention and given its people hope for a better future. His diplomacy is founded in the concept that those who are to lead the world must do so on the basis of values and attitudes that are shared by the majority of the world's population.

For 108 years, the Norwegian Nobel Committee has sought to stimulate precisely that international policy and those attitudes for which Obama is now the world's leading spokesman. The Committee endorses Obama's appeal that "Now is the time for all of us to take our share of responsibility for a global response to global challenges."

Discuss.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Oct 9th, 2009 at 09:38:11 AM EST
Thank god those clowns are Norwegian and not Swedish.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Fri Oct 9th, 2009 at 10:05:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
To the point of peace, "Multilateral diplomacy has regained a central position, with emphasis on the role that the United Nations and other international institutions can play. Dialogue and negotiations are preferred as instruments for resolving even the most difficult international conflicts," Mr Obama drew inspiration from the pacification of civilians and annihilation of Berlin during WWII to extort  cooperation from peoples today whose lives are enthralled by US martial arts. He urged:

This is the moment when we must renew our resolve to rout the terrorists who threaten our security in Afghanistan, and the traffickers who sell drugs on your streets. No one welcomes war. I recognize the enormous difficulties in Afghanistan. But my country and yours have a stake in seeing that NATO's first mission beyond Europe's borders is a success. For the people of Afghanistan, and for our shared security, the work must be done. America cannot do this alone. The Afghan people need our troops and your troops; our support and your support to defeat the Taliban and al Qaeda, to develop their economy, and to help them rebuild their nation. We have too much at stake to turn back now.

This is the moment when we must renew the goal of a world without nuclear weapons. The two superpowers that faced each other across the wall of this city came too close too often to destroying all we have built and all that we love. With that wall gone, we need not stand idly by and watch the further spread of the deadly atom. It is time to secure all loose nuclear materials; to stop the spread of nuclear weapons; and to reduce the arsenals from another era. This is the moment to begin the work of seeking the peace of a world without nuclear weapons.

This is the moment when every nation in Europe must have the chance to choose its own tomorrow free from the shadows of yesterday. In this century, we need a strong European Union that deepens the security and prosperity of this continent, while extending a hand abroad. In this century - in this city of all cities - we must reject the Cold War mind-set of the past, and resolve to work with Russia when we can, to stand up for our values when we must, and to seek a partnership that extends across this entire continent.

This is the moment when we must build on the wealth that open markets have created, and share its benefits more equitably. Trade has been a cornerstone of our growth and global development. But we will not be able to sustain this growth if it favors the few, and not the many. Together, we must forge trade that truly rewards the work that creates wealth, with meaningful protections for our people and our planet. This is the moment for trade that is free and fair for all.

This is the moment we must help answer the call for a new dawn in the Middle East. My country must stand with yours and with Europe in sending a direct message to Iran that it must abandon its nuclear ambitions. We must support the Lebanese who have marched and bled for democracy, and the Israelis and Palestinians who seek a secure and lasting peace. And despite past differences, this is the moment when the world should support the millions of Iraqis who seek to rebuild their lives, even as we pass responsibility to the Iraqi government and finally bring this war to a close.

July 24, 2008, Tiergarten Park, Berlin, Germany

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Fri Oct 9th, 2009 at 10:38:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I was about to say that we should revel in our knowledge and foresight and ability to connect the dots, but we should also recognize the (well deserved) veil of cynicism that we shelter ourselves with.

Then I saw that last paragraph and realize that there is no hope.

Never underestimate their intelligence, always underestimate their knowledge.

Frank Delaney ~ Ireland

by siegestate (siegestate or beyondwarispeace.com) on Sat Oct 10th, 2009 at 04:18:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
mmm, well, accusations of cynicism --The Cynic Card!-- are best played in literary salons, where suspension of disbelief is the premise of discussion rather than the conclusion of it.

A trail of speeches and essays are not "dots" in any event, but explicit declarations of Mr Obama's philosophical interests and political priorities. There are more examples of course. The most bizarre --in juxtaposition to the Nobel committee's criteria-- is an article he wrote for CFR (Foreign Affairs, 2007). Jerome covered it, remember? (free) Then there was one for CFR "Campaign 2008" collection of candidates' foreign policy positions (now embargoed). I'd the distinct impression that one ghost-writer produced them all. Sadly, I didn't copy that; iirc, teh shizle was about 20pp.

Say what you will. Dude's an talking-point automaton.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Sat Oct 10th, 2009 at 04:18:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
To the point of "the basis of values and attitudes that are shared by the majority of the world's population" which a Mr Keyes and not Mr Wright denied him, Mr Obama early preached:

It nagged at me in that campaign because I did not respond with the full force of what I found that Sunday morning at Trinity United Church of Christ: that our faith can never be used as a driving force to divide us. That with a big God, with a loving and forceful God we need to unite in His name to finish His work on earth.
...

America is going to survive. We won't forget where we came from. We won't forget what happened 19 months ago, 15 years ago, thousands of years ago. We know who the head surgeon is, and we're on the case. We're going to pull out bullet after bullet. We're going to stitch up arm after arm. We're going to wear those scars for justice. We're going to usher in a new America the way that newborn child was ushered in.

We're never going to forget there is always hope -- there is always light in the midst of desperate days -- that a baby can be born even with a bullet in her arm. And we can come together as one people and transform this nation. Our God is big enough for that.

June 5, 2007, Hampton University, VA, Annual Ministers' Conference

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Fri Oct 9th, 2009 at 11:56:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Couple that with
... I do not view it as a recognition of my own accomplishments, but rather as an affirmation of American leadership on behalf of aspirations held by people in all nations.

...

We can't allow the differences between peoples to define the way that we see one another, and that's why we must pursue a new beginning among people of different faiths and races and religions; one based upon mutual interest and mutual respect.

and I just want to barf in the general direction of the Nobel Committee... How about people of no faith and no religion? Do we just die, or something?

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Oct 10th, 2009 at 04:02:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
To the point of "playing a more constructive role in meeting the great climatic challenges the world is confronting," Mr Obama dramatized "the costs of war":

Instead of fighting this war, we could be fighting the terrorists who attacked us on 9/11 and who are plotting against us in Afghanistan and Pakistan. We could be securing our homeland and stopping the world's most dangerous weapons from falling into terrorist hands.

Instead of fighting this war, we could be fighting for the people of West Virginia. For what folks in this state have been spending on the Iraq war, we could be giving health care to nearly 450,000 of your neighbors, hiring nearly 30,000 new elementary school teachers, and making college more affordable for over 300,000 students.

We could be fighting to put the American dream within reach for every American - by giving tax breaks to working families, offering relief to struggling homeowners, reversing President Bush's cuts to the Manufacturing Extension Partnership, and protecting Social Security today, tomorrow, and forever. That's what we could be doing instead of fighting this war.

Instead of fighting this war, we could be fighting to make universal health care a reality in this country. We could be fighting for the young woman who works the night shift after a full day of college and still can't afford medicine for a sister who's ill. For what we spend in several months in Iraq, we could be providing them with the quality, affordable health care that every American deserves.

Instead of fighting this war, we could be fighting to give every American a quality education. We could be fighting for the young men and women all across this country who dream big dreams but aren't getting the kind of education they need to reach for those dreams. For a fraction of what we're spending each year in Iraq, we could be giving our teachers more pay and more support, rebuilding our crumbling schools, and offering a tax credit to put a college degree within reach for anyone who wants one.

Instead of fighting this war, we could be fighting to rebuild our roads and bridges. I've proposed a fund that would do just that and generate nearly two million new jobs - many in the construction industry that's been hard hit by our housing crisis. And it would cost just six percent of what we spend each year in Iraq.

Instead of fighting this war, we could be freeing ourselves from the tyranny of oil, and saving this planet for our children. We could be investing in renewable sources of energy, and in clean coal technology, and creating up to 5 million new green jobs in the bargain, including new clean coal jobs. And we could be doing it all for the cost of less than a year and a half in Iraq.

These are the investments we could be making, all within the parameters of a more responsible and disciplined budget. This is the future we could be building. And that is why I will bring this war to an end when I'm President of the United States of America.

March 20, 2008, Charlston, WV

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Fri Oct 9th, 2009 at 12:23:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
To the point of "his extraordinary efforts to strengthen international diplomacy and cooperation" that assure world peace, Mr Obama insisted:

We need a President who can face the threats of the future, not keep grasping at the ideas of the past.

You don't defeat a terrorist network that operates in eighty countries by occupying Iraq. You don't protect Israel and deter Iran just by talking tough in Washington. You can't truly stand up for Georgia when you've strained our oldest alliances. If John McCain wants to follow George Bush with more tough talk and bad strategy, that is his choice - but it is not the change we need.

We are the party of Roosevelt. We are the party of Kennedy. So don't tell me that Democrats won't defend this country. Don't tell me that Democrats won't keep us safe. The Bush-McCain foreign policy has squandered the legacy that generations of Americans -- Democrats and Republicans - have built, and we are here to restore that legacy.

As Commander-in-Chief, I will never hesitate to defend this nation, but I will only send our troops into harm's way with a clear mission and a sacred commitment to give them the equipment they need in battle and the care and benefits they deserve when they come home.

I will end this war in Iraq responsibly, and finish the fight against al Qaeda and the Taliban in Afghanistan. I will rebuild our military to meet future conflicts. But I will also renew the tough, direct diplomacy that can prevent Iran from obtaining nuclear weapons and curb Russian aggression. I will build new partnerships to defeat the threats of the 21st century: terrorism and nuclear proliferation; poverty and genocide; climate change and disease. And I will restore our moral standing, so that America is once again that last, best hope for all who are called to the cause of freedom, who long for lives of peace, and who yearn for a better future.

August 28, 2008, Democratic National Convention

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Fri Oct 9th, 2009 at 12:47:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
when the nobel committee smokes bongs when making their selections.

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.
by marco on Fri Oct 9th, 2009 at 11:07:43 AM EST
That must be some good shit they grow in Norway.

You sure it wasn't something stronger?

- Jake

Austerity can only be implemented in the shadow of a concentration camp.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Fri Oct 9th, 2009 at 11:10:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
like Danish licorice?
by Bernard on Fri Oct 9th, 2009 at 12:51:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Booman Tribune ~ Obama Wins Nobel Peace Prize
To some extent, Obama has been sending out the right message:

  • To shut down Guantanamo Bay
  • Cairo speech to Muslim world
  • Drive for I/P peace settlement
  • Reversal missile shield deployment
  • Strong U.N. non-proliferation statement
  • Improving relations with Moscow
  • Bringing hope to African continent
  • Building alliances worldwide
  • Domestic issue like health care reform
  • More support for ecology

    Obama has reversed Bush policy on foreign matters and domestic issues. He has raised hope by citizens of other nations as polls indicate, quite a swing in positive attitude. I would like to see results forthcoming. I have not seen improvement on human rights issues, domestic and foreign.



  • notes from no w here
    by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Fri Oct 9th, 2009 at 12:18:25 PM EST
    Naomi Klein, Tariq Ali Reactions | DemocracyNow! | 9 Oct 2009

    REPORTER: Mr. Obama is in the middle of a major decision, as you know, on--and will probably end up increasing troop levels in Afghanistan. How does the committee feel about that at this time?

    THORBJORN JAGLAND: The conflict in Afghanistan concerns us all. And we do hope that an improvement of the international climate and the emphasis on negotiations could help resolve that. I do not claim that it must help or will help, but we could hope that this could help resolving that conflict, as well.

    REPORTER: And what--do you have an opinion about raising the troop levels, increasing the--

    THORBJORN JAGLAND: Well, I could have an opinion, but not the Norwegian Nobel Committee. ...



    Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
    by Cat on Fri Oct 9th, 2009 at 01:13:25 PM EST
    Obama, "Humbled" | London Times | 9 Oct 2009

    "Let me be clear: I do not view it a recognition of my own accomplishments but rather as an affirmation of American leadership on behalf of aspirations held by people in all nations," he said.

    "To be honest, I do not feel I deserve to be in the company of so many of the transformative figures who have been honoured by this prize."...

    The decision was controversial, primarily because Mr Obama is so new to his job that the only peace initiative he has been able to deliver is to bury the hatchet with Hillary Clinton, his former rival for the Democratic presidential nomination and now Secretary of State.  



    Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
    by Cat on Fri Oct 9th, 2009 at 01:25:40 PM EST
    text of remarks

    I know that throughout history the Nobel Peace Prize has not just been used to honor specific achievement; it's also been used as a means to give momentum to a set of causes.

    And that is why I will accept this award as a call to action, a call for all nations to confront the common challenges of the 21st century.

    Now, these challenges can't be met by any one leader or any one nation. And that's why my administration's worked to establish a new era of engagement in which all nations must take responsibility for the world we seek....

    I am the commander in chief of a country that's responsible for ending a war and working in another theater to confront a ruthless adversary that directly threatens the American people and our allies. I'm also aware that we are dealing with the impact of a global economic crisis that has left millions of Americans looking for work.

    These are concerns that I confront every day on behalf of the American people.

    Some of the work confronting us will not be completed during my presidency. Some, like the elimination of nuclear weapons, may not be completed in my lifetime.

    But I know these challenges can be met, so long as it's recognized that they will not be met by one person or one nation alone.

    This award is not simply about the efforts of my administration; it's about the courageous efforts of people around the world.

    And that's why this award must be shared with everyone who strives for justice and dignity; for the young woman who marches silently in the streets on behalf of her right to be heard, even in the face of beatings and bullets; for the leader imprisoned in her own home because she refuses to abandon her commitment to democracy; for the soldier who sacrificed through tour after tour of duty on behalf of someone half a world away; and for all those men and women across the world who sacrifice their safety and their freedom and sometime their lives for the cause of peace.

    That has always been the cause of America. That's why the world has always looked to America. And that's why I believe America will continue to lead.

    Thank you very much.



    Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
    by Cat on Fri Oct 9th, 2009 at 07:30:53 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    ... Peace Prize to people who oppose brutal authoritarian regimes?

    I'm thinking that is the general category he's falling in, here.

    I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

    by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Fri Oct 9th, 2009 at 06:41:38 PM EST
    In a triumph of hopehype over achievement
    There, fixed it for ya.

    En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
    by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Oct 10th, 2009 at 04:03:28 AM EST

    Gerson (WaPo)

    Intending to honor Obama, the committee has actually embarrassed him. Europe's slobbering embrace of Obama is really the worship of its own reflected image -- both are critical of America and elevate diplomatic process and promises over outcomes. Americans prefer their honors to come with achievements.



    In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
    by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sat Oct 10th, 2009 at 07:56:15 AM EST
    .
    Americans prefer their honors to come with achievements.

    Recipients of the Presidential Medal of Freedom ... great achievements!
    L. Paul Bremer
    General Tommy Franks
    George Tenet
    Alan Greenspan
    Robert Kahn
    General Richard B. Myers
    William Safire
    Natan Sharansky
    General Peter Pace
    Tony Blair

    Perhaps you meant Medal of Honor recipients in the name U.S. Congress?

    "But I will not let myself be reduced to silence."

    by Oui on Sat Oct 10th, 2009 at 01:40:10 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Nice to see you here, Oui!

    The list is telling!

    While I despise his political role and position in Israel,I think the only one who might have deserved it is Natan Sharansky. He took great risks to oppose the Soviet Union system.

    "Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet

    by Melanchthon on Sat Oct 10th, 2009 at 02:57:20 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    .
    Former MK Sharansky awarded Presidential Medal of Freedom

    "Natan reminds us that every soul carries the desire to live in freedom, and that freedom has a unique power to lift up nations, transform regions, and secure a future for peace," Bush continued. "Natan Sharansky is a witness to that power, and his testimony brings hope to those who still live under oppression."

    Q & A with Natan Sharansky

    Why do you, born in Russia, believe that you have more of a right to live in the land that was once Palestine and is now Israel than a Palestinian Arab who was born there?
    Jeff Blankfort, San Francisco, U.S.A.  

    Natan Sharansky:
    Jews came here 3,000 years ago and this is the cradle of Jewish civilization. Jews are the only people in history who kept their loyalty to their identity and their land throughout the 2,000 years of exile, and no doubt that they have the right to have their place among the nations - not only historically but also geographically.

    As to the Palestinians, who are the descendants of those Arabs who migrated in the last 200 years, they have the right, if they want, to have their own state - in addition to 21 other Arab states - but not at the expense of the existence of the state of Israel.

    Why is neither the Israeli left nor the Israeli right, neither non-Zionist Jew nor the traditional liberal parties, concerned with the fact that, in Barak's words, "There is no way to win an occupation"? If it is indeed the "security" of Israel that's at issue, why is it not of critical importance to begin discussions immediately on a binational state?
    Vivek, Ithaca , U.S.A.  

    Natan Sharansky:
    We Jews have already been in this situation where there was no Jewish state to take responsibility for our people. Why should we be the first people in the world to dismantle our own national state.

    "Minister of Illegal Settlements and Demolition"
    Sharansky's Double Standard
    Yuli Nudelman - Sharansky Unmasked   [Nudelman lost libel case - Oui]

    "But I will not let myself be reduced to silence."

    by Oui on Sat Oct 10th, 2009 at 07:05:50 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    At least someone in the State Department has a sense of humour
    "Certainly from our standpoint, this gives us a sense of momentum -- when the United States has accolades tossed its way, rather than shoes."
    by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Sat Oct 10th, 2009 at 02:06:41 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    is still a turd.
    Peace was an inside job!
    Anything globalist is a compromised organization.
    by Lasthorseman on Sat Oct 10th, 2009 at 04:08:52 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Anything globalist is a compromised organization.

    Yeah, because only "each man for himself" is a wholesome organisation.

    En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

    by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Oct 10th, 2009 at 04:10:44 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    of quotes, intent and actions of our current globalist masters is clearly evil and wastes massive amounts or resources to oppress people for the profit and very sick control fantacies of the very few elite.
    We are all Katrina victims in the future dystopia that is planned.
    by Lasthorseman on Sun Oct 11th, 2009 at 08:38:51 PM EST
    [ Parent ]


    Display:
    Go to: [ European Tribune Homepage : Top of page : Top of comments ]

    Top Diaries