European Tribune - Community, Politics & Progress.

Lisbon clearing the last hurdles.

by Colman
Tue Nov 3rd, 2009 at 10:27:41 AM EST

Update [2009-11-3 10:27:17 by Colman]: The BBC report that Klaus signed it this afternoon. All done bar the shouting.

Looks like the Lisbon Treaty is almost done:

The Czech Republic's constitutional court has endorsed the Lisbon treaty on European Union reform, ruling that it is in line with the country's constitution.
Today's decision has removed the last legal hurdle for the treaty and intensifies pressure on the Eurosceptic president, Vaclav Klaus, to sign the document. Klaus is now the final obstacle to the full ratification of the treaty, designed to increase the EU's global influence. (Guardian)

And David Cameron is apparently ready to concede that he can't run a referendum on a treaty that will already be in place:

Mr Cameron began preparing yesterday for what diehard sceptics will see as a climbdown. He acknowledged openly for the first time that his party may not be able to hold a promised referendum on the treaty before it becomes law. That is because President Klaus of the Czech Republic is on the point of ending his last stand, which has delayed the final ratification of the Lisbon treaty.

I wonder if, with all the institutional nonsense behind us for a while, whether the EU can spend some time and energy dealing with real problems?

Jérôme adds: After 10 years spent on an irrelevant and unpopular document, the undemocratic, bureaucratic, out-of-touch and declining EU is going to sink in an orgy of unseemly backroom dealing and horsetrading to fill new positions that will be ignored by the real powers-that-be in Washington, Beijing or Moscow.

[Europe.Is.Doomed™ Alert] .

. Home
. About
. Contact
. New User Guide
. FAQ
. ET Editorial Guidelines
. Search
. Search (Google)

Username:
Password:

. Make a new account
. Reset password

Lisbon clearing the last hurdles. | 65 comments (63 topical, 2 editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: Lisbon clearing the last hurdles. (none / 1)

Silly simultaneous postings.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Nov 3rd, 2009 at 05:33:18 AM EST

It must be the season (none / 0)

I always get particularly downcast from getting up in the dark.

Cheer up J. Klaus still needs to actually sign it...

by Nomad on Tue Nov 3rd, 2009 at 05:33:45 AM EST

Re: Lisbon clearing the last hurdles. (none / 0)

Frank Schnittger said in the other version:

You forget that the final hurdle is Klaus himself. Who knows what pretext he will find for delaying the signature of a document he desperately does not want to become law. (I've been out of circulation recently, so perhaps Klaus got all he wanted at the last EU Council - but it seems to me he remains a deeply unpredictable figure).

It seems that he's resigned to signing it and the Council gave him enough to save face with.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Nov 3rd, 2009 at 05:41:35 AM EST

Re: Lisbon clearing the last hurdles. (4.00 / 2)

Yep.

What Klaus got is a promise that a Czech opt-out from the Charter of Fundamental Rights will be up for ratification during the next expansion round (when the Lisbon Treaty has to be modified anyway to include the new members). However, it is not at all certain that he'll get it ratified. For one, Hungary's prospective future PM (elections: 2010), opposition leader Viktor Orbán declared that he won't sign it.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Nov 3rd, 2009 at 07:32:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Hah (none / 1)

hadn't seen the details on this. It would only be fair for another country to delay ratification endlessly to scupper Klaus's deal...

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Tue Nov 3rd, 2009 at 08:38:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hah (none / 0)

More to the point, what we've been shown and taught in spades by those (too many of the really influential of whom are involved at high levels) is that "fair" really has nothing to do with this.

Since that's been so clear for such a time, it seems poor sportsmanship for some who've benefited from unfairness to grouse about others who seek nothing less for their party's cause.

Then, there's always sarcasm. That worked so well in the run-up to the vote in France, for example. The poor, benighted French. If only they had a clue! Fortunately, their error will be (is apparently about to be) corrected for them.

"In the interest of democracy, repressive actions were taken; In order to preserve democracy, repressive actions were taken"

by proximity1 (proximity1-at-free-dot-fr---end-o'adresss) on Tue Nov 3rd, 2009 at 09:04:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

yeah because that "non" vote (none / 0)

sure helped us get a better Europe, as was promised.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Tue Nov 3rd, 2009 at 09:15:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: yeah because that "non" vote (none / 0)

True. "A better Europe" is and has to be viewed in reasonable relative terms. But, where I come from, "not driving off a bridge into a ravine" is better than "driving off a bridge into a ravine,"---in my (of course, partisan) opinion, that's an apt metaphor for the situation after the French vote.

I know, the point is all about the differences of opinion as to that. Still, when I pointed out that objections now to unfairness now cannot rightly be seen as other than special pleading, instead of your showing how that observation of mine is false, I get more of the same condescending sarcasm that was the order of the day in, what was it? 2005?

"In the interest of democracy, repressive actions were taken; In order to preserve democracy, repressive actions were taken"

by proximity1 (proximity1-at-free-dot-fr---end-o'adresss) on Tue Nov 3rd, 2009 at 09:30:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

My sarcasm was (none / 1)

just in response to your sarcasm.

The French "non" killed off the possibility of a politically legitimate, democratic Europe for a generation. We're in a standstill for a while more. Some have argued that this is not such a bad thing in the current context, when political legitimacy would have been used for neolib purposes. I say that political legitimacy prevents neoliberalism, which is all about not refusing the right to make political choices on economic issues in the name of freedom and pretending that any restriction on corporates is dictature.

Condescention and bad faith came from the "non", as far as I'm concerned. But hey, you won, you can rewrite history. Enjoy your "victory."

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Tue Nov 3rd, 2009 at 10:26:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My sarcasm was (none / 0)

"The French "non" killed off the possibility of a politically legitimate, democratic Europe for a generation."

It's your right to view it that way. I see it differently.

"I say that political legitimacy prevents neoliberalism, which is all about not refusing the right to make political choices on economic issues in the name of freedom and pretending that any restriction on corporates is dictature."

And likewise for the above. In my view, by the time of France's vote, it was already beyond any reasonable doubt that "legitimacy", even assuming either that it existed somewhere, or might result from a "Yes" vote, was not going to even slow neoliberalism (already far advanced) down, much less prevent it.

I think that it's also safe to say that no matter what happens, as for "Some have argued that this is not such a bad thing in the current context, when political legitimacy would have been used for neolib purposes," proponents of neoliberalism will seek to use any legitimacy present, past or future, for their cause's purposes. To expect anything else wouldn't make sense. Opponents of neoliberalism, after all, would do the same.

If one day we're so fortunate as to live under a system which can lay fair claim to legitimacy, then surely every party on every side would seek to lay its claim to that legitimacy. (Now I'm in danger of sounding pontifical, but this is only my personal opinion) Legitimacy, if it exists, is something apart from any party's property.

Neither I nor any party I support "won" anything which today still has effect. To say that the "Non" proponents acted in "bad faith" (merely by voting "Non"?) is to assume that on this question there could be no legitimate alternative to a "Oui", which was indeed exactly what the "Oui" proponents did assert, not figuratively but absolutely literally. But, I know we've been all through these arguments already.

There are numerous points we agree on. But this isn't and apparently can't be one of them. We have fundamentally differing views about even such things as what constitutes good faith, legitimacy and what promotes them. I also want "a politically legitimate, democratic Europe" and I wouldn't have voted against anything which I thought would hasten its advent. So---and I know you see it, too---we differ over just that point, what would hasten or delay or preclude it.

"In the interest of democracy, repressive actions were taken; In order to preserve democracy, repressive actions were taken"

by proximity1 (proximity1-at-free-dot-fr---end-o'adresss) on Tue Nov 3rd, 2009 at 11:05:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

yes, we disagree (none / 0)

you're the one who came up with insulting words, yet again, for those that supported the Constitution an the Lisbon Treaty.

I have argued on substance for these. I have no problems with arguments on the substance against it (and many of the regulars on ET, like Migeru, DoDo or others, have argued, often forcefully, against me on this topic), but the sneering words for he partisans of the 'yes' are nothing of the sort.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Tue Nov 3rd, 2009 at 12:53:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Not Just France (none / 1)

The Constitution would've probably gotten a 'nee' in the Netherlands either way and be rejected in the UK and Ireland and Denmark and Poland referendums as well.

We should get a more democratic and political Europe by 2014, when the EP elections will also be about the Commission Presidency and the new voting weights in the Council are phased in.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Tue Nov 3rd, 2009 at 12:20:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

well (none / 0)

we'll never know, but it's very likely that the French "non" emboldened the Dutch, and the opposite result would have had good chances of being followed by another positive vote.

The following referendum in the countries you mention would then have become referendum on staying in or out of Europe, something which could have only positive consequences for Europe, by either giving it a massive stamp of legitimacy in these countries, or by allowing to push them out of the core Europe.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Tue Nov 3rd, 2009 at 12:49:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not Just France (none / 1)

All the contemporary polls I saw indicated that it would have passed in Denmark without any serious problems.

- Jake

It is necessary to distinguish between the virtue and the vice of liquidity. (With apologies to Lemuel K. Washburn)

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Nov 3rd, 2009 at 05:49:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My sarcasm was (none / 0)

I say that political legitimacy prevents neoliberalism, which is all about not refusing the right to make political choices on economic issues in the name of freedom and pretending that any restriction on corporates is dictature.

Huh!? I don't see how political legitimacy contradicts the "there is no alternative" narrative in neoliberalism. If you would be right, there would be no neoliberalism anywhere in countries with democratically elected governments.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Nov 3rd, 2009 at 12:37:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

the political legitimacy (none / 0)

would have been given to the pan-European institutions in Brussels whose main purpose is to do technocratic regulation in the name of the public good.

Corporations can only be regulated effectively at the continental level - giving legitimacy - and thus power - to the very institutions able and keen to do it would have been a major step forward.

Boosting the bureaucracy would have been better than "throw the bums out" - as you know, when you throw the bums out, only one power remains: money.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Tue Nov 3rd, 2009 at 12:47:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: the political legitimacy (none / 0)

That is an argument, but it doesn't follow that political legitimacy would have prevented neoliberalism.

To attack the above argument too, technocratic regulation can mean the elimination of local regulation ("deregulation") and the prescription of 'market solutions', too. And claim that it's in the name of public good, too. Thi happened at national level, too.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Nov 3rd, 2009 at 12:56:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

remember (none / 0)

that the choice was between the Nice Treaty and Europe being voted against, and the current Treaty with a positive vote for Europe.

The difference was not really in the actual processes, but about who would have had legitimacy after the vote. With the "non", as we've seen, the federalist institutions are been mocked and blamed, and all we get is the Council, increasingly assertive national governments, and open sneering by euroskeptics at Eurofederalists, calling their dream voted dead.

With the "yes", you'd have had renewed energy for pan-European action, and that usually takes the form of continent-wide regulation, or continent-wide empowering things with deep political meaning (think Schengen or the euro). The federalist institutions would have been reinforced, and they are structured to do regulation, not deregulation (deregulation is what they get to do when they have no legitimacy, because breaking things is easier than building them).

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Tue Nov 3rd, 2009 at 01:16:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: remember (none / 1)

"usually takes the form". Past performance is no guarantee of future results.

all we get is the Council, increasingly assertive national governments, and open sneering by euroskeptics at Eurofederalists, calling their dream voted dead.

With the Lisbon Treaty, we now got even an European Council as independent fourth pillar.

(You do realise I am the devil's advocate here.)

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Nov 3rd, 2009 at 01:44:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hah (none / 1)

It would only be fair for another country to delay ratification endlessly to scupper Klaus's deal...

If only it would not be all about nationalist grandstanding (on both sides), over one of those issues that shouldn't have been swept under the rug during EU accession (e.g. the Beneš Decrees).

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Nov 3rd, 2009 at 12:32:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hah (none / 0)

Well, I'd like to see whether Hungaria is really going to try to hold up Iceland and Croatia's accession because of this.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Tue Nov 3rd, 2009 at 01:08:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hah (4.00 / 3)

Croatian accession (especially HDZ-led Croatia's accession) is supported as the accession of an ally by Fidesz, however, scoring one 'for' ethnic Hungarians across the border and against Slovakia by proxy would count stronger here, I think. Orbán is not an Eurosceptic, but in nationalistic stubborness, he can hold his water with Klaus.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Nov 3rd, 2009 at 01:39:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lisbon clearing the last hurdles. (none / 0)

BBC NEWS | Politics | Cameron under referendum pressure

Tory leader David Cameron will decide "later this week" what his policy is on a Lisbon Treaty referendum after the Czechs moved closer to ratification.
A Czech constitutional court has cleared the way for President Vaclav Klaus to sign the treaty.
Mr Cameron told LBC radio: "I of course hope he doesn't sign the treaty but I suspect time is running out."
He is under pressure from Eurosceptics to hold a post-ratification referendum if he wins power.

Capitalism without bankruptcy is like Christianity without hell. Frank Borman

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Nov 3rd, 2009 at 06:15:51 AM EST

Re: Lisbon clearing the last hurdles. (none / 1)

"Ce qui vient au monde pour ne rien troubler ne mérite ni égards ni patience." René Char

by Melanchthon on Tue Nov 3rd, 2009 at 08:03:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The Blair Touch (4.00 / 3)

Jerome a Paris

After 10 years spent on an irrelevant and unpopular document, the undemocratic, bureaucratic, out-of-touch and declining EU is going to sink in an orgy of unseemly backroom dealing and horsetrading to fill new positions that will be ignored by the real powers-that-be in Washington, Beijing or Moscow.

Is it really necessary to be so pessimistic, I wonder? Of course, there's a lot of nitty-gritty truth in what this commenter says, but the hapless whatsit, er, the EU, still has time to choose Tony for president and become relevant for the first time.

Chin up, "Jerome"! All is not lost!

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Nov 3rd, 2009 at 09:06:09 AM EST

Re: Lisbon clearing the last hurdles. (none / 0)

So when does the changes go into effect?

IIRC, we are already past the date set in the treaty.

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Tue Nov 3rd, 2009 at 12:51:08 PM EST

Re: Lisbon clearing the last hurdles. (none / 0)

A long time past, but that doesn't really matter. I think the Treaty will enter into force in January?

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Tue Nov 3rd, 2009 at 01:11:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lisbon clearing the last hurdles. (none / 0)

FT.com / World - EU to act quickly to appoint president

Sweden, which holds the EU's rotating presidency, said the treaty would come into force on December 1, and announced plans to call a short summit this month to formalise the appointment of the first full-time president and the bloc's new foreign policy high representative. The likely summit date is between November 10 and 19.

"Ce qui vient au monde pour ne rien troubler ne mérite ni égards ni patience." René Char

by Melanchthon on Wed Nov 4th, 2009 at 05:14:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lisbon clearing the last hurdles. (none / 1)

Jérôme adds: After 10 years spent on an irrelevant and unpopular document, the undemocratic, bureaucratic, out-of-touch and declining EU is going to sink in an orgy of unseemly backroom dealing and horsetrading to fill new positions that will be ignored by the real powers-that-be in Washington, Beijing or Moscow.
[Europe.Is.Doomed^TM Alert]

sounds about right.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Nov 3rd, 2009 at 01:17:44 PM EST

Re: Lisbon clearing the last hurdles. (none / 1)

I take jerome last comment as sarcasm....due to the doom line.

The Lisbon treaty is, as Newsweek properly called (I can not believe I am writing these words), a pseudo-constitution.

Europe is now, formally halfway there.. where there is a European president with a European Federal Congress and a Head-of_State Senate. Plus a bill of rights.

the question is how long will it take fro Europe to do the final step. With the present constitution , Europe can work fine at the international economic level (and at the enviromentalist level) for a long, long time...

the final jump will be a matter of will as far as I can see... maybe in half a century a crisis appears which requires a completely united Europe, but I do not see it now.

So... I am with afew.. we are half-way there, and the previous treaty , whcih the French blocked, was closer to the final goal , but still it was not the whole deal.

So, cheer up.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Tue Nov 3rd, 2009 at 03:17:26 PM EST

Re: Lisbon clearing the last hurdles. (4.00 / 3)

We're more than halfway there. All we need is a provision for the EU institutions to amend the constituent treaties.

As long as the only mechanism for amendment is another international treaty, the EU is an international organization.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Nov 3rd, 2009 at 03:46:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lisbon clearing the last hurdles. (none / 0)

By that definition, the US is an international organization.

Article V, U.S. Constitution

The Constitution of the United States
* * * * * * * * * *
Article V
The Congress, whenever two thirds of both houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose amendments to this Constitution, or, on the application of the legislatures of two thirds of the several states, shall call a convention for proposing amendments, which, in either case, shall be valid to all intents and purposes, as part of this Constitution, when ratified by the legislatures of three fourths of the several states, or by conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other mode of ratification may be proposed by the Congress; provided that no amendment which may be made prior to the year one thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any manner affect the first and fourth clauses in the ninth section of the first article; and that no state, without its consent, shall be deprived of its equal suffrage in the Senate.

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Tue Nov 3rd, 2009 at 04:11:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lisbon clearing the last hurdles. (none / 0)

The EU doesn't have The Congress, whenever two thirds of both houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose amendments to this Constitution.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Nov 3rd, 2009 at 04:20:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lisbon clearing the last hurdles. (none / 0)

But it has The Council, whenever it unanimously deems it necessary, shall propose new Treaties to supplement and replace the Treaties.

Would the US be an international organization if only the Senate could propose amendments?

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Tue Nov 3rd, 2009 at 04:31:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lisbon clearing the last hurdles. (none / 0)

But that is under the International Convention on the Law of Treaties, not under its own rules.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Nov 3rd, 2009 at 05:00:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lisbon clearing the last hurdles. (4.00 / 3)

So if the International Convention on the Law of Treaties was copy-pasted into the treaties as how the treaties change, would it then be a constitution?

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Tue Nov 3rd, 2009 at 05:03:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lisbon clearing the last hurdles. (none / 1)

LOL

Another point is that the current arrangement doesn't recognise a single European sovereign entity (the "people of Europe") but rather a number of sovereign entities entering into an agreement.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Nov 3rd, 2009 at 05:07:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lisbon clearing the last hurdles. (none / 0)

Je je je.

I was writing the same point below.. je je je

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Tue Nov 3rd, 2009 at 05:21:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lisbon clearing the last hurdles. (none / 0)

I think we're ready for a game of Nomic.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Nov 3rd, 2009 at 05:25:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lisbon clearing the last hurdles. (none / 1)

Would the US be an international organisation if only an assembly of State Governors could propose amendments?

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Nov 3rd, 2009 at 05:24:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lisbon clearing the last hurdles. (none / 0)

By my definition below it could be.

When I wrote the comment about the senate I assumed that the early senate was an assembly appointed by the State Governors. However, I have been unable to find how the early (pre-election) senators were appointed, so if anyone has a link...?

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Wed Nov 4th, 2009 at 05:38:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lisbon clearing the last hurdles. (none / 1)

There are a fair number of passerelle clauses in the treaty. So on policy, there is some room to move ahead.

Still, in 10 years we will have to start drafting a new treaty.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Tue Nov 3rd, 2009 at 04:29:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lisbon clearing the last hurdles. (none / 0)

Why do you think so?

This pseudo-constitution seems rather functional even for 40 countries.

Why do you think it would need another step closer to the full political union in 10 years? What would malfunction?

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Tue Nov 3rd, 2009 at 04:49:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lisbon clearing the last hurdles. (4.00 / 4)

The basic problem is that there is a restricted number of policies that the EU can use, and that these do not necessarily correspond to the needs that we'll see in five or ten years.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Tue Nov 3rd, 2009 at 06:16:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lisbon clearing the last hurdles. (none / 0)

Can you elaborate?

You mean we are closer than I think because the EU institutions can change teh treaty without teh acceptance of the member-state? Or because it would be easier than I think to create the European congress-head of states (senate)-presidency (executive=comission) structures?

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Tue Nov 3rd, 2009 at 04:47:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lisbon clearing the last hurdles. (4.00 / 2)

My point is that the Lisbon Treaty is not self-amending, and that that is all that is missing for it to be a constitution.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Nov 3rd, 2009 at 04:50:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

yes (none / 1)

that's an important point, underlined by our various discussions of the absurd need for unanimous ratification of any change (or, at best, of a new procedure for future changes).

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Tue Nov 3rd, 2009 at 05:00:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: yes (4.00 / 2)

The need to agree unanimously to a self-amending treaty is not absurd.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Nov 3rd, 2009 at 05:02:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

indeed not (none / 1)

it's just that this step has not happened for the EU yet.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Tue Nov 3rd, 2009 at 05:31:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lisbon clearing the last hurdles. (none / 0)

I agree that this is a key element to be considered a cosnitution, but shouldn't it include a certain power structure from the get-go to be considered one?.
Maybe the present power structure will still be a full political union if only the teatry would set a procedure based on European institutions (Comission, parliament and head of states) to be amended, but it need to avoid the ratificaion by each one of the national parliaments.

At the end of the day, the treaty could say that it needs the ratification of all national parliaments, and then it would be no different than now.. and I would not call it a constitution.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Tue Nov 3rd, 2009 at 05:20:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lisbon clearing the last hurdles. (4.00 / 2)

Giving the European Parliament at least some power to initiate legislation would be necessary for us in the 21st century to recognise the EU as a "proper" seat of sovereignty.

Back in the 18th century... not so much (cf. the Holy Roman Empire's "electors").

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Nov 3rd, 2009 at 05:23:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lisbon clearing the last hurdles. (none / 1)

I took Jérôme's comment for sarcasm, and my reply was Not Serious ;)

Sorry about Lévi-Strauss, though he was 100 and, as they say hereabouts, podia far un mort.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Nov 3rd, 2009 at 04:19:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lisbon clearing the last hurdles. (none / 1)

Puff.. tough...

I just read

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/04/world/europe/04levistrauss.html?hp=&pagewanted=all

A rather interesting summary... although they do not talk about later work on which topics are universal to mythologies and which ones are not...even less which specific myths are more common than others regarding universal topics... Still, they comment the universal structure behind most of them which is, probably, his best-known accomplishment.

Now...I only hope that his knowledge is not lost, and that we keep repeating that most of our differences come from the different structural mythologies we inherit from our ancestors which are perfectly suited so that our brain makes sense of our conscience in society.

Let us try to broaden people's minds by providing more myths that they can think of.

RIP

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Tue Nov 3rd, 2009 at 04:44:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lisbon clearing the last hurdles. (none / 0)

kcurie:

Let us try to broaden people's minds by providing more myths that they can think of.

That's it.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Nov 4th, 2009 at 02:06:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lisbon clearing the last hurdles. (4.00 / 2)

My take on what is missing before the EU is accepted as a federal state rather then an organization of states is violence. If a state wants to leave the EU today, it does no matter what the rules say. Bad relations might happen, but that is it. If a state tries to leave Germany or the US against the rules, the executive of the state will be arrested and brought to trial.

This is partly based on the existence and strength of federal forces, but even more so on the self-definition of the state forces. If the state forces sees themselves primarily as citizens of the federal state, they are unlikely to fight for the state executive at all.

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Tue Nov 3rd, 2009 at 05:14:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lisbon clearing the last hurdles. (4.00 / 2)

Yes, the EU has no federal police force or military.

But, more importantly, even if you had a federal police force and military, its members would have to see themselves as European first. This is unlikely to happen until long after the EU constituent treaties recognise a single EU-wide sovereign entity that the federal authorities can identify with.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Nov 3rd, 2009 at 05:19:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lisbon clearing the last hurdles. (none / 1)

Given that the Lisbon Treaty contains

Article 50
1. Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements.

will the EU ever be a State by your definition?

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Nov 3rd, 2009 at 05:30:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lisbon clearing the last hurdles. (none / 0)

Yes.

Leaving in disregard of the rules was just chosen as an example of an act that disregards the federal rules. It is such a final act, which makes it a good example. Any act that should land the local executive in federal prison would work as example of where the real sovereignty resides.

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Wed Nov 4th, 2009 at 05:20:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lisbon clearing the last hurdles. (none / 0)

A swedish kind of death:

Any act that should land the local executive in federal prison

The EU doesn't have a federal criminal law, federal police or federal prison... yet.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 4th, 2009 at 05:29:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lisbon clearing the last hurdles. (none / 1)

Why is a federal state - fit for purpose for the 19th C - necessarily the end-game, or even a desirable end-game?

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Nov 4th, 2009 at 05:24:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lisbon clearing the last hurdles. (none / 0)

Unified fiscal policy requires federal tax codes and federal enforcement thereof.

Power of the purse (real power, with real enforcement) makes you a federation. If for no other reason then because of the concentration of power on the federal level required for enforcement.

- Jake

It is necessary to distinguish between the virtue and the vice of liquidity. (With apologies to Lemuel K. Washburn)

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Wed Nov 4th, 2009 at 03:44:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Lisbon clearing the last hurdles. (4.00 / 2)

FT.com / World - EU to act quickly to appoint president

Mr Blair's chances faded last week at an EU summit where the UK's Labour government found little support even from nominal centre-left friends in Portugal and Spain. Ms Merkel said she thought it advisable for the first full-time president to come from a smaller country. This indicated she was not in favour of a strong-willed, globally recognised but controversial politician in the Blair mould.
"The impression is that ever more leaders seem to agree that they want a [lower-profile] `chairman' rather than a `president' of the European Council," said Antonio Missiroli, director of studies at the European Policy Centre, a Brussels-based think-tank.
However, Mr Sarkozy, one of Mr Blair's earliest supporters, had not given up hope that the former UK leader could clinch the job, French officials said.

"Ce qui vient au monde pour ne rien troubler ne mérite ni égards ni patience." René Char

by Melanchthon on Wed Nov 4th, 2009 at 05:16:44 AM EST

Re: Lisbon clearing the last hurdles. (none / 1)

We should wrap up and submit the signatures to the Council...

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Nov 4th, 2009 at 05:17:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Lisbon clearing the last hurdles. | 65 comments (63 topical, 2 editorial, 0 hidden)

Go to: [ European Tribune Homepage : Top of page : Top of comments ]