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Apparently, Bob's my Uncle

by Helen Wed Nov 4th, 2009 at 01:35:06 PM EST

Over the wekeend during a quiet moment, Sven suggested the following;-

Helen, why don't you just start that beer and beef website, attract a huge audience and get 40K a year from the ads and reviews ;-)

After he'd managed to reassure me it wasn't a complicated leg pulling maneuver he continued;-

I really believe that with the right kind of site, marketed smartly, you could create a large audience. I am not sure how big, but you'd be amazed what people are earning by blogging. All the skills required for this are right here in this room. All you need is an LLP and.... Bob's your uncle. Which, come think about it is one possible name for the site.


So I noted;-
But what sort of format ? after all there's 10s of 1000s of people on LiveJournal and most of those get one or two readers a fortnight. how do you make waves and attract readership.
I've always wanted to create a london website for ethnic shopping.
and good and interesting pubs of course. I'm much more picky that the CAMRA london guide. Plus there are a lot of pubs which have something worthwhile, like specialising in german or dutch booze. Or odd food catering for particular groups (two mongolian pubs in london, there must be some for most ethnic groups)

and he countered

I don't think diary is your writing format. You are best when reacting, if I may say so - which is what reviewers do. But you need an own branded website, not a timeshare in blogspace.
I am sure that there are plenty of beer or pub review sites online - you probably know them all. You need to find a niche within that, if its possible. There are probably 200 million Europeans drinking beer and 10 million of them might like to know more about beer or passionate about their beer. If you could get 50.000 of those, you have a market. It's not impossible, though I'd have to think how to market it.
But first off it has to be an area you are passionate about. And 'opinionated' about. The ethnic shopping idea is also worth exploring.
My suggestion is that you first ask ET for ideas - content, technical, marketing etc. Tell us what you'd like to do. Then see if something emerges from the brains trust.

So, lamenting this has nothing to do with Illya Kuryakin, I'll thow it open to the brains trust. I'll try to respond to all ideas and see where it goes.

Display:
Make lists. First list, festivals.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Wed Nov 4th, 2009 at 02:55:19 PM EST
lists of what  ? Music ? I've decided I'm going to the Eisteddford next year cos it's an internaitonal music fair rather than a bunch of druids maundering on in welsh. and WOMAD>

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Nov 4th, 2009 at 03:39:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
BEER BIER CERVEZA BIÈRE festival fair klatsch whathaveyou with musical entertainment, if you like. and don't leave home without your digital camcorder. my crystal ball is cloudy... I foresee a VIDEO personality beneath a blazing russet crown...

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Wed Nov 4th, 2009 at 04:11:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You can get hosting for somewhere between free and not much a year.

If you're doing IT already, it's not a challenge to get Wordpress up and running.

So that's your start. Blog about beer. If there are some existing forums, drop in on them and mention your site in a sig, or maybe ask for comments.

Don't expect floods of traffic - but really, with a site about beer, I doubt you'll lack interest.

Setting up a Joomla-based CMS will take longer, but it's not desperately difficult to get the basics running. I've seen people do it in a day or two. It takes longer to do something really slick, but it's beer, so you may not need slick.

Likewise with forums, which are available packaged and ready to drop into your hosting space. As a test, I parked a forum on a server and found an interesting skin for it in a couple of hours. It's that easy.

What you don't need to do is buy Dreamweaver, and build everything from scratch.

CMS has been one of the success stories of open source software. There's a good selection of tools you can splice together for no money down and not much effort, which will produce a workable and working site for you, with interactivity.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Wed Nov 4th, 2009 at 04:10:25 PM EST
I think Beer and Beef is a good website name (and the .co.uk and .com version are currently available).

Would beef be your reactions or would it be about cowflesh?

Either way, I think would be better name than Bob's Your Uncle.

by Magnifico on Wed Nov 4th, 2009 at 04:31:26 PM EST
Beer2Beef is more dot com'ish....

B2B reinvented.....

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Wed Nov 4th, 2009 at 05:31:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I can talk a good steak but moaning is more my forte :-))

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Nov 4th, 2009 at 05:39:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But beefing is what is needed!

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Nov 5th, 2009 at 01:53:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Years ago I had an idea for a virtual pubcrawling site - one that would allow you to plan (say) a pubcrawling weekend in some foreign city with a guide to local pubs, details of how to get from one to another, and of course details of the beverages and entertainments on offer.  I see various "pubcrawl" sites are now up and running, although I don't know of any that follow that format.

Once you have a good selection of content up and the beginnings of a userbase, you could facilitate user generated content by which users could document and review their favourite pubs.  Some sort of link-up with Google maps would allow the creation of pub crawl maps linking pubs with specified beverages, musical/entertainment types, ambience/community/cultural identifications etc. - that even a blind drunk could follow.  (Of course there could also be related safety, traffic hazard, and health services info!)

A database of videos of pubs would add life to wordy descriptions and snap shots.

When you reach critical mass you could charge pubs for "featured" entry and breweries for ad space for their products.  Your site could link up with hostelling, couch surfing, music, gigging, public transport, and other related infotainment sites.

The ambience would be informal - lots of scope for virtual pub chats, soap box orations, and the blathering of blithering idiots.  However there could also be more serious fora for chats on sport, politics sex and food - what normally goes on in pubs but what you could do online on the nights you can't go out.

users would be able to choose their own favourite site/pub décor - modern lounge, cocktail bar, Irish pub, traditional ale house.  You would try to build communities of like minded connoisseurs - the Caol Ila Brethren spring to mind.

A  complaints section could deal with dirty lines, filthy toilets, rowdy customers, and poor service.  A bar tender of the Month feature would interview favoured proprietors.

Above all you would guard your independence jealously.  Most drinking sites are run by marketing agencies, drinks companies, and hospitality chains.  You would seek to become the Wikipedia of Pubs - I see someone out there already has a proposal for a Wikipubs.com.

But your site wouldn't just be a pub guide.  It would be about the drinking experience and the conversations and experiences which flow from that.

You would need an IT partner and ideally a graphic designer to get the whole thing looking good ultimately - but many people could bring bits of expertise to the community.  

But its your personality that would ultimately sell the whole thing - its about real people having fun and not necessarily just about the venues and the products and services they offer.

notes from no w here

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Wed Nov 4th, 2009 at 08:49:49 PM EST
I was introduced to a restaurant review site this week and had a chance to talk to the principals. The site is eat.fi. It is map based with user reviews. I asked them about pub reviews, but their experience was that the reviews and commentary weren't useful and they had dropped them.

What I'd suggest for Helen is that it is based upon 'Helen' as a character, who is very opinionated (but mostly right) about beer, and the site contains a growing catalogue of all the world beers reviewed. It starts with Helen's reviews, but trusted user content will be needed later. It can be done on a hobby basis to begin. (Which it is already).

Each entry would need a photo of the bottle and etiquette, and maybe what it looks like in the glass. Getting the photos is a problem - but users could help. Users should be allowed to agree or disagree with Helen's reviews. Maybe a rating system too.

Each beer entry needs to be searchable on various criteria: type, brewery, country of origin, quality, availability etc.

Later on there could be reviews of beer advertising, licensing laws etc etc. But it starts out simple.

The business model would be based on breweries, importers, pub chains etc (suppliers) paying for exposure to the site's loyal users. The more users there are, the more valuable the audience becomes. There me´needs to be a clear distinction between independent reviewing and ads or features. The site should never compromise on reviews to suit advertisers.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Nov 5th, 2009 at 02:27:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"Helen of Troy".com - the face that launched a thousand quips...

notes from no w here
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Thu Nov 5th, 2009 at 04:45:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Helen of Dray, surely?

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Nov 5th, 2009 at 06:22:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
People to Pubs.....

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson
by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Thu Nov 5th, 2009 at 06:30:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Pensive to Pissed? Vial Sharing? Self-Organgrinding Systems?

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Nov 5th, 2009 at 07:33:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I like Vial sharing.

But I also would likeextensibility to my ethnic shopping guide, which london seriously lacks

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu Nov 5th, 2009 at 08:03:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't think the marketing proposition should focus on organic beer processing processes or drug related metaphors...

notes from no w here
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Thu Nov 5th, 2009 at 08:37:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Spoken, it's indistinguishable from "vile sharing".

The fact is that what we're experiencing right now is a top-down disaster. -Paul Krugman
by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Thu Nov 5th, 2009 at 10:09:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't see photos as much of a problem.
There are a few of us out there who could help Helen get beers from quite a few places in the world. And I know many of us would want to help.

After getting enough exposure, Helen would receive beers from the producers anyway.

The only thing about the look in the glass is that many beers have their own glasses. Then Helen would need to ask the producer for a picture -I don't see that as much of a hurdle as it's free exposure for them.

Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Thu Nov 5th, 2009 at 02:28:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You're right again. It could be partly be an ET group photo project, at least to get the ball rolling. I am quite sure that suppliers will be keen to have their product seen in the best light, and send in photos, samples whatever - if there are enough eyeballs. But I also would like to see people with the beer in some shots. People enjoying beer. It would add a sense of community - you can still have the product beauty shot, but if it was only catalogue shots it would be too sterile.

In my experience of many beer drinkers - maybe even most - people are quite loyal to their beers. There may be more than one they like, but you can also guarantee that all beer drinkers have beers they won't touch. I think this 'pride in their brand' would be a strong motivation to contribute to the site.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Nov 5th, 2009 at 02:38:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I can dream of beers being sent from producers, but I think you have to be at "national influencer" level before that happens.

Plus, it's beer in the pub that matters, cos that's real ale; a significant determinator in the UK. However I have some strong words to say about bottled beer in the UK which I am beginning to suspect isn't quite what it seems. There is a certain supermarket whose bottled beer always disappoints and I'm beginning to suspect foul play.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu Nov 5th, 2009 at 02:43:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There you go. Your first scoop. And you do know that we have legal talent here? ;-)

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Nov 5th, 2009 at 02:52:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, the guy at Malt Madness was sent some samples from whiskies sold at 10,000£ a bottle. So receiving beer (which usually comes cheaper) should definitely be possible for someone like you, who have SO much to say.

Just believe in it and I'm sure it would work.

"Plus, it's beer in the pub that matters, cos that's real ale"

Why that, though? You know a lot about other beers as well, so why limit yourself? I'd sure read what you have to say about Belgian beer, even though they are the ones I know best.
And even UK beer, well, as you say you have things to say about bottled beer (I agree it's doesn't taste the same as in the pub). People would want to know.

Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Thu Nov 5th, 2009 at 05:23:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
An e-mail with a link to your site or a phone call to the PR/marketing department of any half decent company will elicit quite a few samples without a second thought.  beer companies spent a large part of their revenues promoting their brands and the prospect of having an independent voice such as your own doing some of the heavy lifting for them is just too good an opportunity to pass up.  You will be swimming in the stuff - until you knock it!

notes from no w here
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Thu Nov 5th, 2009 at 07:05:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'd read it, and I don't even drink beer. But I do work in the travel-writing biz, and there are lots of travel pros would would read (and likely swipe) your reviews.

And if you branch out into guest columns, I have material for a couple of good, offbeat things that never got written for a corporate site just dismantled. :-)

by Mnemosyne on Wed Nov 4th, 2009 at 09:56:58 PM EST
Isn't there a contest going on about improving the Netflix "movies you will like" (based on your previous ratings) predictor? Seems like a "beers you will like" predictor would be useful.

Example:

I like Bass, Pacifico, Sam Adams, Newcastle, and Coors Light. Ales in the winter, lagers in the summer. Predict me a beer for Oktoberfest.

by asdf on Wed Nov 4th, 2009 at 11:31:08 PM EST
We did "flavour maps" for Malts.com - see http://www.malts.com/en-row/Learnaboutwhisky/TheFlavourMap.htm - plus expert reviews into the history of certain beverages and discussions with distillery managers...

notes from no w here
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Thu Nov 5th, 2009 at 04:50:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I like that. However I'm unconvinced beer resolves so easily. I'm gonna have to think about that.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu Nov 5th, 2009 at 02:37:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I wouldn't only want pub reviews. I'd also want to read about beers, like maybe one article a week about a specific one.

If you want ideas about how to write that part of the site (ie, the non-pub parts), here are two sites that are quite successful with a different drink:

http://www.whisky-distilleries.info/index_EN.shtml (note this one was actually French to start with -hint that having two languages might help)

http://www.maltmaniacs.org/ (in fact you'll find 3 sites there, three times as much inspiration!)

I'd definitely read your site, and recommend it to scores of people. You have plenty of things to say about beer that would interest people.

And, now that Michael Jackson's dead (no, not that one, though he's dead also), the main competitor to your knowledge is no longer available.

Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Thu Nov 5th, 2009 at 02:25:41 AM EST
Sadly there are loads of competitors. I'd also have to be careful to avoid treading on CAMRA's toes regarding pubs and beer.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu Nov 5th, 2009 at 02:38:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Why, Camera has a specific market demographic, and they have managed to piss quite a few of their membership off at various points. You have a fresh point of view, and you're certain to come at beer from a fresh direction. Brewers and pubs will be happy to deal with you as you're appealing to a different market segment,  Pubs arent going to survive purely off the backs of the Knit your own Yoghurt crowd, so any fresh perspective that Brings a new readership/drinkership to beers will be more than welcome. CAMERA do not own the right to read about or write about or drink Beer.

(With sufficient female readership, CAMERA may even want to join You) ;)

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri Nov 6th, 2009 at 12:48:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
CAMRA (no E) know me well. It is, despite the "knit your own yoghurt" image, practically 1/3 female in membership these days. One year at the Great British Beer fest all of the senior staff were female (not deliberately, it just happened like that).

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri Nov 6th, 2009 at 01:43:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'll try to come up with a preliminary brief for the design and layout - probably at the weekend. It is easier to argue about more concrete proposals imo. (This would be for a beer review-only site based on a character - Helen's - opinions)

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Nov 5th, 2009 at 07:38:13 AM EST
thank you, I really appreciate your generosity

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu Nov 5th, 2009 at 02:38:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think the beers&pubs site should be distinct from the ethnic shopping sight (although of course they should have a recognizably common layout).

You have two strong propositions, but I think mixing them in a single site will make the experience unsatisfactory for the respective readerships.

The fact is that what we're experiencing right now is a top-down disaster. -Paul Krugman

by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Thu Nov 5th, 2009 at 10:13:01 AM EST
I agree. They can't be easily mixed. I think Helen has to choose. It could be possible to run two sites, but providing the personal content for two sites would be onerous. I believe the beer review site has a much greater catchment potential, and, from a business viewpoint only, the kind of suppliers it would attract probably have far bigger budgets then the ethnic shops or restaurants.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Nov 5th, 2009 at 02:15:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Indeed.
Helen could start the second site as a gift to the world of ethnic shop AFTER making a fortune with the first site (and getting people writing comments for her as well).

Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi
by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Thu Nov 5th, 2009 at 02:21:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In my dreams. I'm still running scared from TBGs comment and all the techie stuff I'd have to perfect before I could even start.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu Nov 5th, 2009 at 02:36:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Maybe you don't have to learn any techie stuff at all - there are people to help here. You should concentrate purely on the writing and the reviews. Of course you have to agree to how the site is structured - i.e. what you want to see there, and how it will be presented, what will your character be? etc. But after that it will be up to others to make that IT infrastructure work, or do the design, etc - according to the brief.

You might want some kind of partnership agreement with those ET people to share potential profits. I would donate any share to the running of ET to the benefit of us all - but that is a personal choice, not a demand.

And remember, there are far more people lurking here than contribute, and amongst those lurkers there may  be very useful and supportive talents in other areas than mainstream ET discourse.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Nov 5th, 2009 at 02:51:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
thank you again.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu Nov 5th, 2009 at 04:16:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
A site about beer probably wouldn't need much fancy technical stuff (flash or java could be dispensed with, unless you also intend to sell). And html, well, you'd find that workable enough I venture. My wife taught herself web designing when she had to stay home after an operation.

And that's before the help you'd get, so I wouldn't worry about it too much. It's just about wanting to do it.

Similarly, while I don't think you'd need much capital to get started, you may find people willing to help in that respect too (say, if you need to travel to some breweries).

Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Thu Nov 5th, 2009 at 05:29:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, if it did get up and running there are certain beer fests I'd love to attend. Great American for starters, any german Oktoberfest that isn't Munich's. Plus Bamberg has a spring fest in April and you know how I regard Bamberg.

But I'd try as much as possible to do that under my own steam, I'd fear being beholden to commercial interests. Like Frank suggested, it's all very well getting free samples so long a you say nice things. But honesty requires independence, which means paying your way.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri Nov 6th, 2009 at 06:08:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The sites I read slam some of the producers who send them samples, when they don't like it.

They keep sending. Because they know that there is a reason why those sites get readership, and that's the desire for an honest point of view.

Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Fri Nov 6th, 2009 at 06:30:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
its easy, you will have no problem doing it. you have enough IT experience to find it simple when you sit down and start.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri Nov 6th, 2009 at 12:56:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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