So, how do we get anything better than sane center-right policies?

by Jerome a Paris
Fri Dec 11th, 2009 at 03:09:34 PM EST

It's hard for me to take sides in the debate between those sorely disappointed by Obama's policies and those that point out that his policies, however flawed, still represent very real progress and are so much better than the alternative. Or between those that feel betrayed by Obama's centrist behavior and those that remind us that he has to deal with a fairly conservative Congress.

The reality is that Bush was a hard-right, fundamentalist, administration, and we're now getting a centrist (but right of center) - and maybe more importantly, sane - administration. The reality is also that this is largely in line with what Obama promised. The reality is also, sadly, that, in today's political and media environment, this is probably close to the best (ie leftiest) we can get.

Thus, the questions we need to ask are - (1) why is it that the range of political discourse and policies considered possible in the US ranges from the hard right to the center right? And (2) what needs to be done to change this?

Of course, there's a third question pending: will center-right policies be enough to solve the current economic catastrophe? And if not, what happens then?


The fact that current policies are the best we're likely to get can be both a cause of celebration (we're getting sane and somewhat decent policy-making) and despair (it's so far from what's needed, and from what could be done, in theory, to solve problems). But we need to explain why it is so.

We all know the main reasons:

  • the role of money in politics, under the argument of the first amendment, gives more power to those who can buy lobbyists or political campaigns than to those who actually vote - thus to big corporations and billionaires keen on deregulation, lower taxes and wealth concentration;

  • the corporate controlled media mindlessly repeats the same lies and simplistic soundbites over and over again, making a mockery of honest debate and respect for the truth, and somehow making popular the same deregulation, lower taxes and wealth concentration;

  • to be brutally honest, the right has been quite competent in shaping narratives, ie simple stories with a smidgeon of truth (there used to be a link between the Dow Jones and overall prosperity) and values (freedom, toughness, self-sufficiency), and all the requisite distractions (abortion, gays, immigrants, etc...) that make the corporate propaganda plausible and apparently attractive...
So what can be done to get anything better than the left of the corporate agenda range, ie what can be called the center-right in US terms and quite far on the right in European terms (but dontcha know Europeans are weak, stagnant, doomed and irrelevant?)

I'm stumped - but one sure is for sure: not complaining about the result will certainly not result in it changing for the better. While tactically, and, in the case of health care coverage for more citizens, morally, there is a case to accept the current reforms as progress, strategically, there has to be a backlash, and sustained noise that the result is still fundamentally biased and unsatisfactory.

Because one thing is for sure: the current system is NOT sustainable, and thus will not last eternally. But if a crisis as severe as the one we just went through is not enough to bring about real change (as in: seriously redistributive policies), it only means one thing: change will require a bigger crisis. And given that change from our unsustainable system is inevitable, a bigger crisis WILL happen. The only question is whether it happens before 2010, 2012 or later.

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http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/12/11/813250/-So,-how-do-we-get-anything-better-than-sane-cen ter-right-policies

and naturally focused on US politics, but the same question is worth asking for Europe...

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Fri Dec 11th, 2009 at 03:11:30 PM EST
... most European parliamentary democracies, but under the Madisonian system, the answer is to build a progressive coalition that is able to build a platform that can pull in enough additional support to become a temporary governing majority.

The flip side of the Madisonian system is that while its harder to make those gains than under a parliamentary system, its also easier to defend themso the reforms do not automatically collapse as soon as the progressive movement evolves into a coalition focused on protecting its hard won gains. This is not sufficient to offset the structural conservative bias, but if reform was as hard to enact as in the US and as easy to rollback as in Europe, it would be the worst of both worlds.

Fundamental progressive reform simply has not in the past 200+ years and arguably cannot, without massive structural reform, happen as a consequence of regular political activity in the US - it happens because every once in a long while some progressive movement is able to stitch together a strong enough temporary governing majority to gain the reform, despite all the deliberate construction of the system to be resistant to reform.

You'd probably get more interesting US based responses, though obviously not as many, posting this to Docudharma. dKos is fine for generating comment counts, but for getting surprising responses, I find Docudharma more useful.


Utsukushikereba sore de ii

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Fri Dec 11th, 2009 at 04:22:58 PM EST
I'd say the fate of the British Labour party has conclusively shown limitations of the Parliamentary system.
by rootless2 (redacted) on Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 09:46:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Britain has FPTP elections to their parliament.

Which is, to quote ThatBritGuy, "a very good facsimile" of democracy.

- Jake

"Terraforming your own planet to make it uninhabitable hardly counts as epic win." - ThatBritGuy

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 09:55:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'd say a major roadblock is the lack of a proportional system. It's very hard to channel popular anger into actual political changes as the two major parties can quite easily be co-opted. There's no chance of new parties emerging that can force their way into Congress or force the main parties to adapt their policies in the direction of the new party, to keep it out.

Though one must also blame the Democrats who've decided to fold on issues that actually matter to their voters (wages, taxes, labour unions) while taking the wrong (as in unpopular among their voters) side on "cultural" wedge issues.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Fri Dec 11th, 2009 at 05:08:14 PM EST
Note, though, that proportional vote is not the only way to skin that cat - the second preference version of IRV voting would be the electoral reform most easily fit into current institutions with the broadest impact in terms of changing voter behavior.

Indeed, it would have a bigger impact than many realize, since primaries dominate party-branch-selection (known as "caucuses" in the US) and central-party selection of candidates. SP/IRV at the primary level would have its own impact on opening up the system, and indeed would be a worthwhile reform to pursue in its own right.

The most promising avenue for introducing proportional representation in the US is the Electoral College system, where winner take all is widely recognized as a flawed system (though little understood that, just like the Senate Filibuster, it was not the original system but something that evolved in the first generation after adopting the Constitution), and where a smaller group of states than an electoral majority could collectively adopt the reform on their own.


Utsukushikereba sore de ii

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Fri Dec 11th, 2009 at 05:17:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There is some momentum behind IRV and it has been implemented in some cities, such as San Francisco.  The result was mostly re-election of incumbents but I'd argue that the same type of people who would implement such a system are also the kind who would be elected in this consituency so there's no real lesson there.

IRV is a great idea and expanding it from local elections to larger ones is the proper method.  The trick is getting it implemented in places where it actually leads to electoral changes.  When that happens, everyone will stand up and notice.

by paving on Fri Dec 11th, 2009 at 07:26:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
A second reason why its use in primaries is more strategic than might be apparent from outside ... if the possibility of voting your heart AND voting your head draws more people into the primary process, it will tend to tilt general election results toward the party that adopts it, and anything that tends to tilt general election results turns into an arms race in a two-party system.

If it gets widely established at the primary level, it will start being a case of, "but, it's not fair that its not available in the general election".

And getting it INTO the primaries has its own internal dynamic, since it reduces the weight of the argument on the caucus side in the caucus vs primary debate. So it could see adoption in response to the problems of a caucus system by those who do not want to entirely give up the greater responsiveness of caucus, for the attendees at any rate, in favor of FPTP primaries.

Utsukushikereba sore de ii

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Fri Dec 11th, 2009 at 09:12:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Introducing IRV into the general election would make the Primary superfluous.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Dec 13th, 2009 at 04:06:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So the steps goes:
  1. Introduce IRV in one primary through the argument about getting larger primary means getting more votes in the general election.
  2. Introduce IRV in second primary to compete on equal terms.
  3. Introduce IRV in the generals through the argument of a better system that we already use.
  4. See the primaries wither away.


A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!
by A swedish kind of death on Mon Dec 14th, 2009 at 07:13:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A lot of this discussion makes sense for most countries, but not for the U.S, where elections are on  the state level. If a state introduces IRV, you may have different winners for different states, and then what? Changing the election system to a Federal will be a lot harder.
by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Mon Dec 14th, 2009 at 07:22:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You could introduce this system for all kinds of elections from city council to state legislatures to congressional delegations.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Dec 14th, 2009 at 07:25:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Definitely. But the talk upthread about caucases suggested that the Presidential election was in mind. It might be interesting (though completely unrealistic) to think about each state voting for a ranking of candidates using IRV, and then have the Electoral College combine the votes also using IRV....
by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Mon Dec 14th, 2009 at 08:50:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Per comment above, take IRV in steps. Many states have initiative processes nowadays; there is no federal-level mechanism. This is the obvious route for change of voting laws and would easily pass in many states.

Beyond that, the presidency is the least vulnerable institution, when it comes to abrogating ruling-class control. Start where the population can actually affect something.

paul spencer

by paul spencer (spencerinthegorge AT yahoo DOT com) on Mon Dec 14th, 2009 at 01:57:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In what sense? I certainly observed nothing about it making party selection redundant in Australia, which has had full preference voting for over a century - is it in the second hundred years of IRV that party nomination of candidates becomes redundant?


Utsukushikereba sore de ii
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 06:09:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In the sense that alternative voting allows one to have more than one candidate from the same party without crowding each other out - the party primary can be simultaneous with the general election. So, under alternative voting you can have a Louisiana Primary. And instant runoff means that you don't have to have a first round where you select the top two candidates and then a second round but you can resolve the election with just one vote.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 06:48:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But a large part of the function of the primary is to determine who gets the organised backing of the party machine.

This decision will not - for reasons that are hopefully obvious - be left until election day...

- Jake

"Terraforming your own planet to make it uninhabitable hardly counts as epic win." - ThatBritGuy

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 07:28:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
... you said it made a primary redundant, but what a primary does is the same thing that a membership branch (caucus in the US) or central party candidate selection does elsewhere - it selects the official party candidate.

Indeed, it is more likely to get put into place in general elections if it is put in for primaries first, where it has the advantage of offering for primaries an advantage that has so far been reserved for caucuses. So one avenue for getting started is as a way to replace traditional caucuses in states where they have fallen out of favor.

Indeed, the institutionally easiest way to get a second-preference IRV adopted would be in a so-called "firehouse caucus", which is just an election but run by the party rather than the regular board of elections system.

Utsukushikereba sore de ii

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 10:52:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, because it's five lines as opposed to one sentence.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Dec 16th, 2009 at 03:02:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
OK, then, permit me to put it like this.

This:
"Introducing IRV into the general election would make the Primary superfluous."

... claims far more than this:
"So, under alternative voting you can have a Louisiana Primary."

You can have a Louisiana primary, but that does not make the primary superfluous, since the primary purpose of the primary is to select the party nominee by a more democratic process than branch membership committee selection or central party committee selection.

You cannot render something superfluous while failing to accomplish its primary task.


Utsukushikereba sore de ii

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Wed Dec 16th, 2009 at 10:02:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I've been flicking through a biography of Arthur Miller, and it's obvious that his communism was a direct result of his experiences in the Depression.

I sometimes wonder if both the McCarthy-ite HUAC fiasco and the entire Cold War, with its red scares, weren't political moves designed to demonise socialism and communism in the US, and take away their domestic political influence - which was significant, at least until the 1950s.

Which is not to say the Soviets were admirable, but it's interesting how McCarthyism was the first wave of narrative engineering that pushed the US so far to the right.

I doubt much will move until a new post-Marxist narrative appears, which is as memorable and influential.

Then again, it may be too late for that now. The most likely outcome at the moment is increasing cycles of economic instability creating more and more social and political damage, followed by the collapse of the US.

What happens after that is anyone's guess.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Fri Dec 11th, 2009 at 05:12:17 PM EST
... that part of our economic history, but I'd say with reasonable confidence that the answer is, "yes, directly and precisely correct".

Even during the 1930's, the New Dealers were constantly accused of being communists, and the reason Truman was on the ticket in 1944 was because of the effort to cast the previous VP as being a radical and closet communist. While the governor of CA won election against the socialist, nominated as Democratic candidate, Upton Sinclair under the deal that if FDR did not endorse Sinclair, the governor would not block New Deal programs in California ... that was just a temporary bargain. There never was an acceptance of the New Deal by the conservative wing of the Republican Party, and McCarthy was definitely from that wing.


Utsukushikereba sore de ii

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Fri Dec 11th, 2009 at 05:22:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But as late as the Eisenhower administration those people were considered "crazy" by mainstream Republicans. Then they took over the party.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Fri Dec 11th, 2009 at 05:41:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It may look that way from the outside, but you are defining the mainstream by which wing of the party won the fights, not by the support behind each wing. 60% of the national party establishment may have seen the Conservative Wing as crazy and 40% as potentially useful allies, but an American political party is a loose coalition of state parties, and even in the 50's they were either the dominant or second strongest wing in a number of Inner Western State Republican parties.

And taking over the party was mostly a matter of driving the race-liberal, fiscally conservative Republicans that had been part of the Republican coalition since its founding into the Democratic party while attracting the racist, military-Keynesians from the Democratic party into the Republicans ... and driven as much by the LBJ administration ramming through the Civil Rights and Great Society programs and establishing the massive Democratic advantage in the black vote as by anything that was done inside the Republican party. A modus videndi was sorted out between big government racists conservatives and anti-New Deal reactionaries on who got what say on what issues, and away they went. Nixon was the bridge figure, not a Movement "Conservative" reactionary in his own right, but plenty unethical enough to rely on dogwhistle racist appeals to break the former Solid South in the Electoral College.

Obviously for the professional party establishment that simply wanted power, an inside track in the Electoral College for candidates with "R" after their name was far more important than the reckless and irresponsible policies that the Movement "Conservative" reactionaries actually wanted to enact. Those who were principled moderate Republicans rather than moderate Republicans because that was the path to electoral victory were likely always a minority, perhaps since the decline of the Garfield wing of the party in the late 1800's if not earlier.


Utsukushikereba sore de ii

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Fri Dec 11th, 2009 at 06:12:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I sometimes wonder if both the McCarthy-ite HUAC fiasco and the entire Cold War, with its red scares, weren't political moves designed to demonise socialism and communism in the US, and take away their domestic political influence - which was significant, at least until the 1950s.

My read is that this was much more so for Richard Nixon and the HUAC than for McCarthy. It was undoubtedly true for McCarthy's supportes, but, for himself, it was likely more fascist populist opportunism, the successful use of which was like a drug for McCarthy, one that, in the end, was his own undoing.

McCarthy was more than a little bit a mental case and brittle to boot. Nixon famously had his paranoid streak but had much greater resilience. Both were supported by Republican reactionaries who wanted to roll back the New Deal--and who now have largely succeeded.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer at eurotrib.com) on Sat Dec 12th, 2009 at 10:21:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
McCarthy also needed a big, fat red herring to distract everyone from realizing that his war hero stories that he rode into office were all crap.  Far from being the gallant tail gunner, he spent the war test-firing .50s Stateside.
by rifek on Sun Dec 13th, 2009 at 03:47:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's all about ideology, Jerome.  

Back in the late 1940s there was an organized effort to revive liberalism as a political and economic philosophy after it had been discredited by the Depression and the following war. It was called the Mont Pelerin Society, and it was organized by European liberals led by Hayek and Von Mises.  On the American end, Hayek had by basically random chance got his book the road to serfdom published by the University of Chicago Press after one of the mainstream publishers rejected it.

The editor at Chicago at the time was Aaron Director.  This is where it gets interesting.  Hayek asked Director to organize a group of Americans to come to the first in meeting in Switzerland in 1947.  And so he did, starting with his brother in law, a young professor at the University of Chicago named Milton Friedman.

I've done research into this for a paper I presented at a the "rethinking marxism" conference in Massachusetts this past fall.  When you start drawing the lines between the people in the Mont Pelerin Society at the start, and the neo-liberal evangelists, it gets real interesting.

I only wrote on the US side, but there's a whole other side involving Brits who converted the Conservatives into a neo-liberal party.

It's the ideology that matters, and interestingly enough, the ideology that made all this possible came to us from Europe through the Austrians...

Couching what's happened in terms of nations ignores that individuals and institutions other than the state are in large part the relevant actors in ideological warfare.  And by converting the dominant ideology in a society, you can make alternatives literally unthinkable...

If anyone would like, I can send out copies of the paper.  I read way to much Hayek this summer.  Tracing the ideology from its misguided birth to the zealots who adopt its assumptions without understanding that they are assumptions is truly frightening.  And, that's what the problem with America is.

It's why I really believe that a powerful, immanent critique like the Anglo disease thesis, that argues that inequality is inefficient is needed.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Fri Dec 11th, 2009 at 07:08:45 PM EST
I'd be very interested in a copy of that paper.
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Fri Dec 11th, 2009 at 07:15:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Me too.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer at eurotrib.com) on Sat Dec 12th, 2009 at 10:22:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And while you're at it, send one my way.

And the world will live as one
by Montereyan (robert at calitics dot com) on Sat Dec 12th, 2009 at 11:43:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And me.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Dec 13th, 2009 at 04:28:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sent to all

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg
by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Sun Dec 13th, 2009 at 01:49:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
belated add me...

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Sun Dec 13th, 2009 at 02:21:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
and me please.

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Dec 13th, 2009 at 02:39:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ditto.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Dec 13th, 2009 at 04:03:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And me please!
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Mon Dec 14th, 2009 at 01:38:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In the US at least the root of our corporate problems, specifically the issue of free speech protections under the first amendment for political contributions, is the concept of corporate personhood.

Sonya Sotomayer, the newest supreme court justice, brought the issue up in her first session.  Now, with the Court we have today it is difficult to see that challenged but not impossible. Another route would be through a constitutional amendment, which is even more challenging and basically impossible given the current environment.

The other option we have to address the issue is the one I find more salient.  That is addressing the conflation of "money" with "speech."  I think the matching of these two concepts is at the root of many of our problems.  In case you haven't noticed, the right to "get rich" (at any cost) seems to have become synonomous with the right to "happiness."  This is why most people who would historically have been more attracted to the left are consolidating on the far-right of our political spectrum.  They vote for whomever best secures their ability to "make money" and see it as a fundamental, Constitutional right.  

I don't think that it's difficult to decouple these concepts as ultimately most people aren't comfortable with the idea on its face.  The reason it continues and gains strength and fervent backing is that people view money as the ONLY option for political speech. If you take it away, there is no way at all to achieve representation.  

Any effort to develop non-monetary channels for political representation will chip away at the money/speech connection.  Fortunately there are many channels through which political ideas can be communciated that don't really cost anything. The trick is getting people to listen through the noise.

I see the modern noise as mostly a function of commerce.  With the decline in commerce, which is very pronounced in the US, I find that the noise levels are coming down signficantly.  People are looking for something other than advertising, marketing, the next gadget, in part because they can't afford to buy anything and are pessimistic about pursuing greater wealth, thereby dampening the appeal of aspirational purchasing and information.  When the pursuit of wealth loses its appeal the pursuit of spiritual wellbeing, work/life balance and all that tends to become more appealing, in part because it's inexpensive.

Politics is a reflection of society.  Obama was elected because people wanted to believe something different was possible.  The door is open, we need to all walk through it. I honestly believe that repackaging most of the good ideas of the left over the past 100 years will go over like a rocket in this climate.  Tailor your message to the times, leave out the identity-politics and gender wars, spiritual pacifism for its own sake, etc.  Many ideas of the 70's, for example green tech, have already caught on with the power of thirty more years of reflection.  The economic ideals of the 70's can come back as well, now the added hindsight of the disastrous alternative, which succeeded in gaining power in part because it was new and untested in the popular view and was thus harder to prove wrong through experience.  You see the way "communism" was discredited entirely over the past 20 years, Reagansim should suffer the same fate.

by paving on Fri Dec 11th, 2009 at 07:11:40 PM EST
Of course, the charter authority has massive powers over a corporation, its just that with state chartering of national corporations there is a flight to charter in the states with the laxest chartering requirements.

But the Constitution confers the national government the right to regulate interstate commerce, and that would include a power to tax the sale of corporate shares when the transaction crosses state boundaries.

There is some tax rate at which corporations will incorporate with national charters, no matter how lax the charter requirements of Delaware or North Dakota.


Utsukushikereba sore de ii

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Fri Dec 11th, 2009 at 09:17:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The federal govt. has the right to override the states in terms of defining what a corporation is.  Should the fed state that corporations do not have the rights of an individual it would not matter which state they chartered in.  The failure to properly tax corporations is one issue but the failure to regulate their "speech" is another one entirely.  I can live with corporations prospering in their shady way so long as their direct influence on the political process is limited, much the same way we have marginalized Catholicism and other religions historically.
by paving on Sat Dec 12th, 2009 at 05:36:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Should the Federal COURTS state that corporations do not have the rights of an individual, it would not matter which state they chartered in.

However, even if corporations have the rights of an individual, they are still bound by their charter.

If under their charter they cannot make political contributions, its off the table.


Utsukushikereba sore de ii

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sat Dec 12th, 2009 at 08:47:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ah interesting point.  Note that charters can also be revoked fairly easily, certainly for the types of crimes we've seen on a regular basis.  Politically that has absolutely no momentum although the idea is out there in the real US left.  It bothers too many people, the idea of the government deciding that a business can no longer exist.  Yes, ridiculous, but such are the circumstances.
by paving on Sun Dec 13th, 2009 at 03:56:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
However, revoking a charter is a government action - it seems as if suing a corporation for behaving in a way that violates its charter is something that anybody ought to be able to have standing for by simply holding a share of the company stock ... and of course any rival candidate candidate would also seem to be a party affected by the action.

Given that any political contribution to any candidate will piss somebody off enough to search for somebody who held that company's stock at the time of the action and is willing to sue, it seems as if getting the prohibition into the charter would have a lot of impact even in the fact of later government passivity.


Utsukushikereba sore de ii

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sun Dec 13th, 2009 at 01:45:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Perhaps the most interesting comment in what may be the same session that you are referring to actually came from Ruth Bader Ginsburg
MR. OLSON: What the Court has said in the First Amendment context, New York Times v. Sullivan, Rose Jean v. Associated Press, and over and over again, is that corporations are persons entitled to protection under the First Amendment.

JUSTICE GINSBURG: Would that include -

MR. OLSON: Now, Justice -

JUSTICE GINSBURG: Would that include today's mega-corporations, where many of the investors may be foreign individuals or entities?

In other words
Justice Ginsburg created a poison pill by putting on notice any Supreme Court majority that overturns the lower court decision:  your actions will allow foreign funding for U.S. campaigns.  Any foreign entity could simply exercise an existing or newly acquired ownership position in a U.S. corporation to demand services from that corporation's latest wholly owned candidate.
Which might be just the thing to use in a campaign to push for reform of the whole process.
by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Sat Dec 12th, 2009 at 05:49:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Good observation and great point for Ginsburg.  
by paving on Sat Dec 12th, 2009 at 02:04:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Not sure I totally agree with this, bit here's Tony Judt in the NY Review of Books:

What Is Living and What Is Dead in Social Democracy?

Why is it that here in the United States we have such difficulty even imagining a different sort of society from the one whose dysfunctions and inequalities trouble us so? . . . Our shortcoming--forgive the academic jargon--is discursive. We simply do not know how to talk about these things. . . . The problem lies not in social democratic policies, but in the language in which they are couched.

His answer seems to be to recast social democrats as conservatives:

If social democracy has a future, it will be as a social democracy of fear. Rather than seeking to restore a language of optimistic progress, we should begin by reacquainting ourselves with the recent past. The first task of radical dissenters today is to remind their audience of the achievements of the twentieth century, along with the likely consequences of our heedless rush to dismantle them.

The left, to be quite blunt about it, has something to conserve. It is the right that has inherited the ambitious modernist urge to destroy and innovate in the name of a universal project. Social democrats, characteristically modest in style and ambition, need to speak more assertively of past gains. The rise of the social service state, the century-long construction of a public sector whose goods and services illustrate and promote our collective identity and common purposes, the institution of welfare as a matter of right and its provision as a social duty: these were no mean accomplishments.

If any if you are familiar with Big Tent Democrat's Lincoln 1860 argument -- essentially paint the opposition as extremists -- I think this is similar. This approach may not work so well in Europe, unless some version of Thatcherism replaces traditional Christian Democracy as the major approach of the Right.

I'd personally like to see a more positive program:

Messrs. Bowles, Gordon and Weisskopf don't stop at analysis. They offer an Economic Bill of Rights meant to finish off the corporate state whose death struggle is giving us all such grief. To make employment more attractive and secure, they would offer public jobs to all comers . . . shorten the work week, control prices (but not wages) and discourage plant closings. To destroy invidious corporate power, they would make union organizing much easier, give communities control over investments by local banks and insurance companies, subsidize community-owned enterprises and the production of goods deemed ''needed'' by a public planning administration, give the House of Representatives control over monetary policy, and much, much more.
by TGeraghty on Fri Dec 11th, 2009 at 07:22:02 PM EST
I really like the focus on language here.  I sincerely feel that if we can repackage many old, successul ideas we can present something NEW! but at the same time anchored in achievement.  

A great bumper sticker that is occasionally seen in the US that is impossible to ignore says:

"The Labor Movement (or Unions): The folks that brought you the weekend"

Basically, a new label for the same old thing allows it to appear fresh whilst rebranding away from terms that have been under assault for 70 years but at the same time gives it some weight and appeal to day-to-day experience.  It's much easier than selling an entirely new vision, which terrifies many people, especially the elderly.

by paving on Fri Dec 11th, 2009 at 07:44:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
you are absolutely right.. to change it you would need left-wing economic mainstream media... and mythology.

However I fell that on social issues and "superpower" issues we are getting a strong movement to the left in the US.

The AmericanEmpire  has always tortured, now for the first it does not.
The American Empire has always backed right-wing wackos, now they do not grant visas to the same guys (Hnduras)
The American Empire has always invaded what they see fit, now they are getting out of oil-resource-war back to the loose-nuke Af-Pak area

The AmericanEmpire has moved to engage and support the emergence of new superpowers.. I quite can not believe how Brazil is becoming the ruler in South_America and the US is fine with it. Or the deals with Russia... adn China. and India.

And on global warming in the elite in the US is with the center (thankfully no center-right any longer)

Regarding personal rights, the US is moving to the left... except for the death penalty.

So I would say we are losing the narrative in economic issues... and I guess it is because the economic mythologies,media and academic status is against us and 40 years of mythology is very hard to overcome without lots and lots of money , media and improvement of narratives.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Fri Dec 11th, 2009 at 07:26:36 PM EST
Another suggestion is to reach out to Americans from Europe.  manfrommiddleton's post about ideology also hints at the power of foreign influence.  People in the US are not exposed to much real, factual information about the world.  The few who travel outside (for non-business imperialism purposes)are almost uniformally on the left.  

The advent of English-language media coming out of Europe and delivered over the internet is massive.  Target this audience and nurture it.  Anything "European" has built-in appeal for most of the upper middle-class, educated US population under 30.  If you can get these people more radicalized those ideas will carry through the culture rather efficiently.  For now they have mostly become centrists as the opportunity to live a comfortable, glamorous life has been such an easy road.  This is all fading away and there is a void of angry, disappointed and entitled people who are a receptive and influential audience.  The farmers, etc, are organized seperately.

A specific way to encourage the Europeanization of the US is to start treating yourselves as an equal.  The Green City Ranking is very interesting, but it should be merged with the US ranking.  Too often we see data presented as the US alone or the US + the rest of the world.  I want to see more data containing the US and Europe alone.  This kind of subtle change in the way information is presented will have enormous benefits.  As you elevate yourselves to our "equals" in these kinds of ways you'll ultimately elevate your ideas alongside them.  It's not about being better or worse, in fact rankings showing the US cities beating European ones are probably a great idea.  It's about putting us all on equal footing.

by paving on Fri Dec 11th, 2009 at 07:39:27 PM EST
Actually, it shouldn't be US alone, but a handful of "big countries" ... US, EU, Russia, China, India, Brazil, Australia (looks big on a map - wait, we yanks don't look at maps - uhm, they have fake Ozzie steak-houses here).

DO the EU data aggregation - just frame it as if the EU countries were US states (they aren't far from being US states a la 1800).


Utsukushikereba sore de ii

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Fri Dec 11th, 2009 at 09:21:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And at least a couple of them also behave like US states...

- Jake

"Terraforming your own planet to make it uninhabitable hardly counts as epic win." - ThatBritGuy

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Fri Dec 11th, 2009 at 09:30:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Which is exactly why I suggest framing it only as US + Europe.

The data is diluted, for propaganda purposes, if it contains multiple regions.  The data can be of value if it is from only the two regions.

by paving on Sat Dec 12th, 2009 at 05:38:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't follow "the data is diluted, for propaganda purposes, if it contains multiple regions". The data looks scarier for propaganda purposes with multiple lines going up and the US line going down or stagnating.


Utsukushikereba sore de ii
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sat Dec 12th, 2009 at 08:42:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sadly that is only the case for people with actual education or intelligence, not a group that needs any more convincing I might add.

What the general public sees is a bunch of exotic cities they can't understand, like "Sydney, Tokyo, Dubai" etc.  All the "foreign-ness" gets in the way.  Europe, on the other hand, is well within the cultural framework of the US (most Americans are descended from immigrants from Europe, usually several countries).  The reason Europe is a target for the right in the US is because it is a valid comparison.  

Take for example the stupid lists that have been everywhere the past few years on yahoo.com and other news site that always list this stuff. Forbes makes half the lists.  It's always "Top 10 cities for blah blah blah" and all that.  People read them but they've grown stale because there's really nothing new there.  Solution?  Add some more cities!  I'd love to see the "Top Cities for Young Singles" list include a bunch of European cities along with the US ones.  Do the same for housing affordability, job growth, etc.  It doesn't matter that the information has no practical value.

by paving on Sun Dec 13th, 2009 at 04:01:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
... lines with one colored line meaning "us'ns". I don't see how the pair of colored lines makes a more dramatic graphic than four or five with only the US heading the wrong way.


Utsukushikereba sore de ii
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 06:11:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
EU stats and comparing the to the US. it really is shocking to see the comparison there, after growing up comparing one european state and the US, how big and rich europe is.

for an america on the skids, there's a powerful hook for your " and this is why we're so awesome" anti-neoliberal argument.

by wu ming on Sat Dec 12th, 2009 at 10:19:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I meant to say under 40, not just 30.
by paving on Fri Dec 11th, 2009 at 07:40:12 PM EST
I think the problem is that support for leftist policies is correlated with the economic situation. In the 1930s, the U.S. had some real problems, but most people had reasonably good jobs, were employed throughout the period, and lived fairly comfortable lives. So there was a move to the left, but not a socialist takeover.

In contrast, Europe was in much worse shape, partly due to income disparity and partly because of a generally lower standard of living. Thus, I think, a stronger tendency to support the leftist viewpoint. Then, as Europe caught up with the U.S., the socialist viewpoint gradually recedes.

I have no statistics to back this up, though.

by asdf on Fri Dec 11th, 2009 at 11:37:47 PM EST
Incidentally, the title of this diary is a pretty blatant example of dukkha...
by asdf on Fri Dec 11th, 2009 at 11:39:19 PM EST
..change will require a bigger crisis. And given that change from our unsustainable system is inevitable, a bigger crisis WILL happen. The only question is whether it happens before 2010, 2012 or later.

I doubt bigger crisis will change anything (for better). History is full of examples imperiums turning into serfdom without popular uprising. Only foreign invader has been able change things of a bankrupt country. People just think that is a natural way things go (at least as long as they themselves "survive").
There is no political movement addressing the basic problem: banks creating money -> inflating property prices -> sellers getting fortunes -> leaving population in debt -> destroying "wealth creation."

by kjr63 on Sat Dec 12th, 2009 at 09:35:44 AM EST
I add to previous message that:

..destroying "wealth creation" because economic rent grows relative to "value" (production).

by kjr63 on Sat Dec 12th, 2009 at 09:52:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Remember in The Lord of the Rings, when the free peoples went before Sauron's Gate to negotiate an end to the conflict?  And Sauron, like the super-wealthy/corporations, being a reasonable sort said, "Oh sure, I'll just step aside for the good of all of you."

That is how that conflict ended, right?

I love the smell of roast chicken in the morning!

by THE Twank (yatta blah blah @ blah.com) on Sun Dec 13th, 2009 at 07:52:53 AM EST
In the US, we don't.  There is an incorrigible 30% bloc that fervently believes Obama has already imposed hardcore socialism.  Given that kind of resistance, one should not expect a US government meaningfully to the left of Obama.  It should also explain why all power struggles and changes of the guard in the US are between different shades of the Right.
by rifek on Sun Dec 13th, 2009 at 03:54:46 PM EST
The question you've posed,

"Thus, the questions we need to ask are - (1) why is it that the range of political discourse and policies considered possible in the US ranges from the hard right to the center right?"

is the essential one of political economy -- "Why do governance outcomes happen as they do instead of as they should?"

Regarding the simple fact the US is a center-right country while many European countries are better described as center-left, the recent empirical work by Alesina, Glaeser, and Sacerdote has been seminal in the political economy field, particularly among progressive scholars who study things like "race and politics."  (Even though Alesina and Glaeser can't really be categorized as "progressive.")

Their findings, after looking at a number of different variables, boil down to just two factors which are much more basic than money, corporate control of media, or who can shape narratives. If we associate altruism (the basic individual incentive underlying socialism) with being left or progressive or "not right-wing" then we can argue that higher measures of welfare systems is indicative of being more leftist or progressive politically, and we can try to find other relevent, measurable factors that are associated with greater or lesser support for large welfare systems in different countries.

What Alesina, et. al. find after searching through many variables is that only two are strong indicators -- proportional representation voting for legislative bodies, and racial diversity.  

Proportional representation allows a voice in policymaking for more extreme, but less popular, points of view, which has allowed communist and socialist political parties to remain active in Europe, providing a relentless, if minority, voice for the poor in policy-making negotiations.

But the darker indicator is that of racial diversity. More diversity means more right-wing, because it appears that people tend to be less altruistic when their generosity might go to people who look different. Greater diversity means more rightist opinions in politics, which has important implications for migration and economic development policies. (Though, providing hope for the left in a finding in other work by Alesina, people who live in close proximity to diverse populations, such as in mixed neighborhoods in large cities, tend to be just as altruistic to their racially different neighbors as people who live in same-race communities are to their same-race neighbors.)

So, mapping countries by the size of minority populations and by electoral systems provides a schema for predicting structural political bias toward the right or the left.  The US is the most racially diverse country with a non-proportional electoral system, meaning that there is really very little hope for a consistent left-wing majority to ever develop there.  Japan, by contrast, is racially homogeneous, so it falls to the left the the US in that respect, and while it's lower house is proportionally elected, its upper legislative house is not, landing it in the "mixed member majoritarian" category. Scandinavia is racially quite homogeneous (still), and its parliaments are proportionally elected from party lists, and the Nordic countries have the most generous welfare systems in the world. For fun, you can go through the countries of the world and see which ones comply with the model and which are outliers.

The implication is that there are strong, structural and institutional reasons for political bias among countries that are much more basic than money and corporate influence.  And the best, long term strategies for the left in right-biased countries is to promote policies which lead to increasingly proportional representation in even majoritarian elections (such as instant runoff voting), and to promote policies of urban and suburban development that provide for mixed-income communities. (And public transportation is a big part of providing for successful, mixed-income development.)

by santiago on Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 10:59:35 AM EST
For example, here in the state of Texas, the school board which controls a $25B fund and influences textbooks adopted nationwide has had a far right majority for decades. And in 2007, the worst members of the board were re-elected without opposition. The US left at least has not been showing up.
by rootless2 (redacted) on Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 06:54:41 PM EST
.. in the same sense of an organized movement as the reactionary movement that bills itself as "Conservative" (because, as is widely understood, if its a trademark, it doesn't have to be true).

Utsukushikereba sore de ii
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 10:54:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But to me it is revealing that I had heard of the TX SBOE while living elsewhere, read articles about it in the "leftish" press, etc. and never learned it was an elected position that had been ceded without a fight to the wackos until I moved to the place. So here is a nationally visible and powerful set of positions that nobody bothered to even ask voters to consider an alternative. It doesn't take a massive organization to run a candidate. if your political activity consists of nothing that actually can produce power, what's the odds of getting anywhere?
by rootless2 (redacted) on Wed Dec 16th, 2009 at 07:46:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Quite: the Texas School Board was identified by the "Conservative" movement in Texas as a soft target, because they had the organization to be able to do things like identify soft targets. Intelligence and canny strategy can offset resource limits - but only if there is an organized capability to bring them to bear.

Without effective, active and ongoing organizing, what we are left with is the visceral reactions that some number of people are provoked into, which is something that is far easier to cope with through manipulation of the media environment than an active, organized opposition.


Utsukushikereba sore de ii

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Wed Dec 16th, 2009 at 01:35:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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