Tuesday Open Thread

by In Wales
Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 12:03:17 PM EST

Here we are!


Login
. Make a new account
. Reset password

Display:
Our office has had 5 identical cards sent in the post to different staff members (although not personalised) from the same organisation, 4 identical cards from another.

Whaaa?

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 12:13:35 PM EST
I think my computer is dying. It's starting to reboot all by itself at the most awkward times.

More crap to spend money on. wheeeeee.

Jesus died for somebody's sins but not mine - Patti Smith

by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 12:16:39 PM EST
Sorry to hear that dvx.  Hope you can use the "opportunity" to get a slick new one and increase productivity.  ;-))

(was going to write death = rebirth, but i don't wish to apply a jinx to my own aging mac.)

Skennah Kowa

by Crazy Horse on Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 12:32:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Unfortunately I can't do slick because a software app I need is Win only. :((

Jesus died for somebody's sins but not mine - Patti Smith
by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 12:45:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You can run any Win software on a mac, and switch bak and fro seamless.

Parallel. and there are other methods out there.
But you already knew that.  (oh no, not another mac vs. godknowswhat discussion.)

mac is not more expensive tho very slightly more front-loaded. recouped many times over in ease and stability.


Skennah Kowa

by Crazy Horse on Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 01:37:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The Mac is superior in some ways.  Window systems are superior in others.  It finally came down to convenience: I can get stuff for Windows machines without driving 150 miles, and I could 'turn-around' equipment I already had slightly cheaper and with less pain.  ;-)

I don't like the GUI interface.  Yes it has some advantages and is a big jump over the command line operating systems of many years ago.  Yet hardware has advanced and the GUI doesn't handle the new 300GB hard drives very well, there are other apps - documentation search and management, for instance - that are appallingly bad.  

What is needed is a complete re-think of microcomputer operations and their human interface(s).


No one could have predicted

by ATinNM on Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 02:21:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The GUI paradigm is arguably 35 years old at this point. Not sure who is going to come up with something new. The MIT media lab? Microsoft has the money but not the culture. Google has done some neat things, but all within the current paradigm.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 02:31:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You won't improve on the GUI metaphor without some new hardware - things like eye tracking, muscle monitoring, and 3D displays - which will frighten and scare some people.

The one area where GUIs could be updated without too much pain is disk and file systems. Both Macs and PCs use file systems based on technology originally developed in the 60s.

Microsoft tried to develop a smart database FS, but failed spectacularly. I'm not sure if Apple has even tried. Time Machine is a brain-damaged version of what a smart database FS might be like, but it's still the same metaphor, not anything really new.

Finder, better known as Loser, and Windows Exploder are equally giant rotating balls of universal suckitude, IMV. It's unbelievable just how little both MS and Apple have developed these essential tools.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 02:53:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The hardware isn't the limitation.  It's the tools and techniques applied, by software, to the problem that's the problem.

No one could have predicted
by ATinNM on Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 03:12:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well - there are people who still prefer paper to PDFs, so the innovation horizon may not be infinite. :)
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 03:19:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
'Good enough' screens will break that, eventually - screen tech just isn't as good as paper yet - I'm much more inclined to read PDFs on a modern screen than in the past, and I can read for some hours on an iPhone.

Then you're down to portability, robustness and document ownership. Solve that and paper will retreat some more.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 03:25:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I find PDFs on a 30" monitor easier to read than paper - not as portable, obviously, but easier on the eye.

The iPhone double-density display is quite nice. The much-rumoured tablet with the same resolution but more screen space would be interesting - although my Apple spies tell me there are cost and weight issues which make it an unlikely item, at least for a while.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 03:29:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yeah, the 27" allows me to read double-spread A4 at rather bigger than life-size, which is easy on the eyes. The 13" screen on the mac book is less fun. So reading A4 on any tablet is also likely to be less fun.

The problem I see with the tablet is that if I'm going to carry it I'll bring the MacBook Air, and if I don't want the MBA I'll just bring the iPhone. The tablet would have to be cheap enough to get into my house as a replacement for Sam's iBook for light browsing/e-mail work. We don't strictly need two laptops and a desktop to get the heavier work done. We're not typical though.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 03:34:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well - there are people who still prefer paper to PDFs ...

And who might THOSE Luddites be?  Surely no one around here!

:-þ

:-0

No one could have predicted

by ATinNM on Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 04:38:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Spotlight isn't bad for the now-where-did-I-put-that problem, assuming the document isn't trying to avoid being searchable - protected PDFs for example - but the search problem is that we're stuck between not-quite good enough pattern based searching and nowhere near good enough expert system/AI searching "find me that document on trade theory with the bit about Thailand I saved a few weeks ago".

Time Machine isn't an FS. It's a file versioning system with a pretty face on top.

What would the new magic GUI do? What problem would it solve? I still haven't seen one that's worth moving to.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 03:22:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ah you are requesting our White Paper!  (Re-write in progress.  Yet Again.)

What I want is the Star Trek® computer.  From a hardware POV we're there.  It's the damn software that's the problem and particularly the "Everything Is a Set" basis of the damn software.  The CompSci people STILL haven't groked: any axiomatic, deductive, system capable of arithmetic contains True and False propositions that are unprovable from the axioms of that system.  The implication for computers falls out: operations based on an axiomatic, deductive, system - ZF Set Theory - cannot be relied upon as they exist in the Modal Logic of: False - Duh? - True.

Let's look at "Duh?" for a second.

If a system cannot determine Truth or Falsity then it cannot successfully compute or 'decide' Sorities.  Thus, things like Tipping Points, Mandelbrot Set escape, disambiguity of Natural Language utterances, bifurcation, and so on are inherently unresolvable, unsolvable.  Second, that system cannot look for and apply ad-hoc association pathways (addressing) to new and existing data and Information.  Thus, that system cannot Learn and without Learning it has to be taught or told each and every operation it undertakes.  A mind-numbing, tedious, task a human has to do every single time and operation lies outside what has been predetermined and pre-programmed.  To cap it all, even ordinary tasks inherent in these predetermined and pre-programmed have to be painstakingly initiated.

And it's all done in a way that violates human communication training and expectations.

It's madness.


No one could have predicted

by ATinNM on Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 04:36:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, but what if you just want something to play Pong on?

Your approach won't necessarily be better. Unless teaching is networked and cumulative - in which case you've just invented the Brain that Ate Planet Earth - teaching won't necessarily be any simpler than programming. And if it's supposed to transferrable, reproducible, and capable of multiple instantiations - so that your home smart monster doesn't have to reinvent the world from scratch every time it crashes - it has to be reduced to a mechanical representation, which is tricky to do without some version of set theory.

Natural Language is unsolvable because it's unsolvable. Not even humans can do it. We tend not to notice, because it's fine to ask 'What did you mean by that?' But communication and semantics are inherently ambiguous, and a Different Model™ won't fix that, when humans don't always know what it is they're trying to say.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 04:44:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
H'mmmm.

Actually it is solvable.  Come to New Mexico and I'll show you.

No one could have predicted

by ATinNM on Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 04:49:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It can't be solvable if the speaker is being ambiguous or incoherent themselves.

It can be limited and solvable, but that's a different problem.

What does your system do with poetry or metaphorical content?

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 05:00:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The input has to be a well-formed English Language utterance, i.e., it has to be English.  Neither humans nor a cybernetic system can parse jibberish.  

A cybernetic system doesn't have a Limbic System so "doing poetry" as a human would is impossible at the present.  There's an intriguing avenue of approach that would combine a computationally weighted response of the word, tokens, and their association pathways to words, tokens, and combinations of words and tokens to words, tokens and combinations of words and tokens as part of the standard Comparative Progession Matrix© operations.  Never had the time to explore it.  

So I'm going to collapse discussion of "poetry" and "metaphorical" just to keep this comment within reasonable limits.  

Metaphorical communication, it turns out, is a sub-group of a larger problem.  Essentially processing this mode requires the same general operations as Input Validation.  The utterance must be qualified as "Proper" - let me put it - and not an attempt to degrade the Information in the databases, an attempt to breach data security, and on on.  Without getting too much into the technical details, we can assign the "Metaphorical" label to an utterance when there is a sufficient number of previous usages of the metaphor, the words and tokens comprising the metaphor as well as the (computationally derived) Semantics of the words and tokens making "sense¹" given the context of the utterance and some other post-input validation processing.  Some of this latter can occur in Real Time.  The rest has to be down during the 'wait time' between keystrokes or during 'down time' when the system is not being bombarded by user inputs.  

The standard techniques for parsing poetry are, as you know, worthless.  The Robert Frost couplet:

"And I have promises to keep,
and miles to go before I sleep."

has been projected [I can find the cite, if you care] to take well over 2,000 human-years to figure-out the meaning doing it "the old fashioned way."  I can show you our system doing it in under two seconds.

But, again, it's not "poetry," for the reasons given above.  Rather it is a cognitive representation of the poem.  These are two different things, as I'm sure you're aware.  Our Metaphor processing is, roughly, the same: it's not the "metaphor" as such, but the computationally derived cognitive representation of the metaphor.  The system cannot "do" poetry or metaphor but it provides a damn good mimicry of so doing.

Turns out, this is Good Enough for most practical purposes.  Most people don't "do" poetry either and metaphorical usage by humans is highly stereotyped and subject to strict limitations.  (OK.  Subject to some n-dimensional - where n is 1.585, in most cases - shadowing of the phenomenological as given by the final Interpretant comprising the proper significant effect of the Representamems resulting in a final Interpretant comprising the proper significant effect of a cybernetically derived and validated semantic Representamem OF the utterance."  Ta-dah & whoopie.)  These "strict limitations" are a necessary feature as well as an emergent property of Language.  It's through semiotic, syntactical, and semantic Sorities humans overlap and it is only through these over-lappings that humans can communicate or 'range-in' to communicate.  Same with a computer.  As a last resort, our system will do what a human does ... ask "WTF are you on about?"  (Tho' more politely.  ;-)  Limited testing indicates a human user accepts this and actually expects it.  This fits the interface within the common mode of communication, it also provides a psychological benefit by making the computer seem less Other; makes the system more "human" thus less threatening ... oddly.  

The second step, is to determine the where in various hard and virtual association pathways the tokens, words, and final Representamem of the utterance lie. Without getting into details, the result is a human retrievable "emotive sense" of the metaphor as vectored through the association pathways and other final and intermediate tokens, words, and final Representamems it encounters along the way.  And their pathways and so, recursively onwards.

Amusingly, since this process is all input based, by allowing the system to input to itself the system can, through the same process, derive its own, novel, metaphors.  We've only paper tested this function and the results were ... unique ... enough to place the whole thing in the 'Whenever' file.  

¹  This would require a longer exposition than I can get into.  Suffice to say, any utterance that "makes sense" eventually cycles around to previously supplied and/or previously inferred, by the system, Cognitive Junction© -- the "narrative semantics" eventually is "validated" by the "message semiotics."  That's not quite right, much more to it, does gets the point across?  

No one could have predicted

by ATinNM on Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 06:48:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
All those who have accepted this invitation have subsequently been found babbling stochastically near Area 51.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 05:05:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]


No one could have predicted
by ATinNM on Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 06:57:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
shouldnt that self portrait be here?

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 07:03:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I operate on a context sensitive, Real Time, Stimulus/Reaction basis.  

No one could have predicted
by ATinNM on Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 07:11:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
ATinNM:
I operate on a context sensitive, Real Time, Stimulus/Reaction basis

thanks for providing the succinct definition of 'sentient being' i've searched for for quite a while!

"Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do." Jim Hightower

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Thu Dec 17th, 2009 at 09:59:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Like a cabbage?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Dec 17th, 2009 at 10:03:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So, Taxis and Tropism are evidence of sentience?
A taxis (plural taxes, pronounced ˈtæksiːz) is an innate behavioral response by an organism to a directional stimulus or gradient of stimulus intensity. A taxis differs from a tropism (turning response, often growth towards or away from a stimulus) in that the organism has motility and demonstrates guided movement towards or away from the stimulus source [1][2]. It is sometimes distinguished from a kinesis, a non-directional change in activity in response to a stimulus that results in the migration toward or away from a stimulus.


En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Dec 17th, 2009 at 10:23:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
i said 'succinct', not 'succulent'!

as for cabbages being sentient, most of the time i wouldn't know, the rest of the time i'm non-verbal, so if i did know, i couldn't tell you.

i guess i lack the necessary presumption for assumption, this time...

didn't 'the secret life of plants' scientifically show us plants are sentient, anyway?

i happen to dig cabbage, a lot.

(and muddy work it can be, too)

:)

"Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do." Jim Hightower

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Thu Dec 17th, 2009 at 04:54:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There isn't anybody working on this as their 'job.'  A "complete re-think" implies jettisoning most or all of the heuristics and paradigms upon which an operating system is based.  Just as an example, there is no such thing as "Digital Electronics."  There is only analog electronics and we all pretend different.

Another example, from the Dartmouth conference on, CompSci has been firmly based on Set Theory and the advantages, and restrictions, of Set Theory.  But that's not how people operate.  Thus, that's not the best paradigm for human/computer interfaces.  Yet, computer language and operating system development has gone ever further into implementing Set Theory based systems ... under the impression, I suppose, if an ounce of something is harmful a pound is what is needed to really get going.  

(LOL)

I can get all techy-tech here talking about stand-alone systems, networked systems, distributed systems, serial versus parallel, "cloud" systems, semantic/actional "web" systems and it all comes down to the same thing: we don't use computers like we did 30 years ago, never mind 55 years ago, and we don't need to be forced into the straitjackets springing from hardware restrictions of 30 years ago.  

sigh

Button pushed.  I rant react.

No one could have predicted

by ATinNM on Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 02:57:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hah. As if the technology is based on set theory in any real way. Or the languages.  

What is the problem you're trying to solve?

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 03:18:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Huh?

Computer software has been intimately tied to ZF Set Theory since the Dartmouth conference.  

No one could have predicted

by ATinNM on Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 04:41:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You guys are almost laughable you Measure against what might be and I compare only with what complete idiot (most of us) can use today

Skennah Kowa
by Crazy Horse on Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 03:19:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Surfing the Leading Wave of computer technology has been My Life for, well, my life.  Over the last 30 years the Leading Wave has dwindled to a tiny riplets and I'm tired of it, frankly.

No one could have predicted
by ATinNM on Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 04:47:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There isn't anybody working on this as their 'job.'  

Nonsense. There's lots of research groups playing with this sort of stuff.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 03:23:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Who?

A friend worked on Semantic Webs back in the 70s.  It didn't work then, either.

I know people doing interesting things with Neural Nets but there are severe problems with upscaling as soon as they run into Huble and Wiesel limitations: no such thing as the "Grandmother neuron."

The CYC Project is a joke.  They've been Relationally Databasing for over 20 years now with little to show for it.

Wolfram's "Computation Knowledge Engine" is more interesting but it still requires human to tell it what to think.  CAs are too limited a tool to handle n-dimensional referents and ambiguity.

I could go on.  

So ... who?


No one could have predicted

by ATinNM on Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 05:06:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I've seen assorted demos out of the like of MS Research on interface research. Most of it doesn't even try to  solve any existing problem I have.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 03:28:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Touch screens solve a lot of problems, and make new things possible.

One of the big problems with digital music is the absence of tactile interfaces. Once you add a decent-sized screen with multitouch and perhaps pressure sensitivity, a lot of limitations disappear, and you get a digital instrument you can play, rather than just poke a cursor at.

I'd expect similar changes in other areas.

But a lot of computer-think has been driven by business - spreadsheet, power point, document server, yada yada - and businesses aren't fond of change.

There are two issues - physical interfaces, and mental metaphors - with some synergy between them.

I'm sure better metaphors are possible, but they'll be much more acceptable if you don't have to drive them with a mouse and keyboard.  

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 03:35:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think we'll see some reluctant innovation in the next 5-10 years because there is little left to sell, and without biennial upgrades from consumers and businesses, companies will go out of business.

The digital side of semiconductors is just about tapped out in terms of transistor size and speed, and hardly anyone has needed more than the most basic processor on the market for their needs for the last 10 years. On the software side I think Adobe's model is the trend: break backwards compatibility and force consumers to buy new versions of software that don't do anything new (at best).

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 03:59:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Touch-screens are nice. Do they count as a new paradigm? They don't feel like it yet. You sound as if you need Star Trek NG style holographic interfaces!
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 04:06:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Touch screens are potentially a new paradigm, because they make it possible to build something like this

or this

with a completely configurable panel, which is potentially context sensitive, or at least switchable, and can be laid out ad lib.

The new paradigm comes from seeing hardware as a tactile interactive object that happens to do some computing, rather than as a computer that happens to have a touch screen.

The iPhone already does some of this, but it's too small to do more than play games on. If you scale up the size, the possibilities get more interesting.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 04:50:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
boy that takes me back.

I was working as the Systems Architect for a system not too unlike what you're describing back in '89.  Ran into an insurmountable problem and had to round-file the effort.  Can't remember what the problem back then was.


No one could have predicted

by ATinNM on Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 07:09:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So what problems do you have?

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 03:48:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Finding documents is the obvious one. My outboard brains are no use unless I can remember enough details to direct retrieval.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 04:01:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The thinkgs you're complaining about aren't aspects of the GUI interface. They're issues that were built into the original pcs that have now become issues due to the size and or speed of the systems.

The new paradigms exist, have existed for years in mid range and power systems. Problem is that they're proprietory and expensive.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 02:47:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I still use command line interfaces regularly. Good for spell casting.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 03:26:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I still use spell casting.
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 03:30:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What do you mean?
by Magnifico on Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 03:46:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Blood (Sweat and tear) sacrifce mainly. other than that its mainly curses.

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 03:52:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Mess with the complicated stuff that GUIs are bad at.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 04:01:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's mostly esoteric invocations and obscure incantations. And curses. Lots of curses.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 04:02:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Curses ? Now we know you're an IT bod. Malcolm Tucker (sweary guy from Thick of It) must have a background in IT

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 04:41:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Went through that last week.  Looked at Macs and decided couldn't justify the additional cost, so went with an off-brand Windows system: Lenovo.  Has a Pentium Dual Core processor, 64 bit architecture, 320GB disk, & blah-blah.

Still have to get the drivers for the laser printer ... but can't have everything.

No one could have predicted

by ATinNM on Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 01:21:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ugg, a long day, still got about 3 hrs to go and I'm still feeling washed out from my cold.

{sigh}

Still a bit of a lie in tomorrow, till 7:45. Whoop-de-woo

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 12:44:01 PM EST
Alrighty then. The Gitmo decommission SNAFU a/k/a HR. 2346 has resurfaced. In Illinois of all places! (Some readers may recall states' charitable campaigns for the prison jobs earlier this year despite Congressional prohibition to fund, transfer, or house Gitmo inmates in the US.)

Obama administration transferring Guantanamo detainees to Illinois prison | The Hill | 15 Dec 2009

A senior administration official said Tuesday morning that the president "has directed that the federal government proceed with the acquisition of the Thomson Correctional Center in Thomson, Ill., to house federal inmates and a limited number of detainees from Guantanamo Bay, Cuba."

Sen. Dick Durbin (D-Ill.) and Illinois Gov. Pat Quinn (D) will be in Washington this afternoon to be briefed by White House officials about the decision, the official said....

Once the federal government has acquired the facility, its security will be enhanced beyond federal "supermax" specifications, the letter said.

The prison will also house other federal prisoners, but they will not be mixed with the "limited number" of Guantanamo transferees.

"Not only will this help address the urgent overcrowding problem at our nation's federal prisons, but it will also help achieve our goal of closing the detention center at Guantanamo in a timely, secure and lawful manner," the letter said.

Even as Republicans pointed to recently passed law disallowing such a transfer, the letter noted that "the president has no intention of releasing any detainees in the United States."

"Current law effectively bars the release of Guantanamo detainees on U.S. soil, and the federal government has broad authority under current law to detain individuals during removal proceedings and pending the execution of final removal orders," the letter said.

Fed custody, a perpetual state of transition or suspended animation: Oddly enough, the nuance proposition reminds me of a semantic distinction between ser and estar, not to mention the "is/is" defense.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 03:24:31 PM EST
Oh, yeah: I'm reading "acquisition" as confiscation, so no payment tendered for the property per se. Accordingly, any monies disbursed on supermax compliance is strictly for the benefit of resident inmates. Quinn reports to WH for debriefing re: allowable expenses, reimbursements.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 03:36:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Supreme Court Refuses to Hear Gitmo Torture Suit | CCR.org | 14 Dec 2009

oday, the United States Supreme Court refused to review a lower court's dismissal of a case brought by four British former detainees against Donald Rumsfeld and senior military officers for ordering torture and religious abuse at Guantánamo. The British detainees spent more than two years in Guantanamo and were repatriated to the U.K. in 2004. ...

Last year, the Supreme Court granted the men's first petition, vacated the Court of Appeals decision and ordered the D.C. Circuit to reconsider its ruling in light of the Supreme Court's historic decision in Boumediene v. Bush, which held that Guantánamo is de facto U.S. territory and that detainees have a Constitutional right to habeas corpus.

On remand, the D.C. Circuit reiterated its view that the Constitution does not prohibit torture of detainees at Guantánamo and that detainees still are not "persons" protected from religious abuse. Finally, the Court of Appeals held that, in any event, the government officials involved are immune from liability because the right not to be tortured was not clearly established.



Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 04:49:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
the right not to be tortured was not clearly established.

How much more clearly does it need to be?

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 05:18:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This "jurisprudence" concedes to Bush legal innovations undermining integral treaty obligations.

Congress committed the lie "enhanced interrogation" so legalizing torture in the MSA.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 07:40:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Military Commissions Act of 2006

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Tue Dec 15th, 2009 at 07:43:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm heading up to New York City today (Wednesday), just in time to catch the cold air moving in to the region!
:-)

"Beware of the man who does not talk, and the dog that does not bark." Cheyenne
by maracatu on Wed Dec 16th, 2009 at 10:06:50 AM EST


Display:
Go to: [ European Tribune Homepage : Top of page : Top of comments ]