Buy Stocks, They Said

by afew
Tue Mar 10th, 2009 at 09:17:02 AM EST

The question has been asked around here: where are the stock markets headed? How much further Down to go, how much more Wheeeeee to give us thrills as we whizz down the helter skelter?

You'd expect Nouriel Roubini to live up to his Dr Doom moniker. In fact he's being quite measured and simply realistic, in my view.

we cannot rule out another bear market sucker’s rally in 2009, most likely in Q2 or Q3. The drivers of this rally will be the improvement in second derivatives of economic growth and activity in U.S. and China that the policy stimulus will provide on a temporary basis. Given the severity of macro, household, financial firms and corporate imbalances in the U.S. and around the world this Q2 or Q3 sucker’s market rally will fizzle out later in the year like the previous 5 ones in the last 12 months.

What are the downside risks to these bearish predictions for U.S. and global equities?

On the downside there is at least a third probability of an L-shaped global near depression rather than the mere current severe U-shaped recession. If a near depression were to take hold globally a 40% to 50% further fall in U.S. and global equities from current levels could not be ruled out. But in this L-shaped near depression the last thing one would have to worry about would be stock markets as more severe issues would have to be addressed. (my bold)

So right, get the message: forget the stock markets. But if you really have to go there:

Earnings per share (EPS) of S&P 500 firms will be in the $ 50 to 60 range, but they could fall to $40. The price earnings (P/E) ratio may fall in the 10 to 12 range in a U-shaped recession. If earnings are closer to 50 or the P/E ratio falls to 10 then the S&P could fall to 600 (12 x 50 or 10 x 60) or even to 500 (10 x 50). Equivalently the Dow (DJIA) would be at least as low as 7000 and possibly as low as 6000 or 5000.

A P/E ratio of 10 to 12 doesn't seem astoundingly out of the ordinary, or at least it wasn't until bubbly financial sector domination of the economy, aka Anglo Disease, set in.

(Above quotes are from an RGE e-mail, so no link).


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... "put your retirement savings in stocks."

Yay for working your whole life! Party like it's 1899!

- Jake

"Terraforming your own planet to make it uninhabitable hardly counts as epic win." - ThatBritGuy

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Mar 10th, 2009 at 09:26:23 AM EST
Actually really actually, they said :

There is NO OTHER WAY than putting your retirement savings in stocks.

And some are still saying it. Wheeeee!

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Mar 10th, 2009 at 09:34:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I wish to hell we had privatized Social Security.<snark>  With all of that dough the Ponzi Scheme could have continued for a few more years. I suspect the Bushy/Repubs were counting on that.  Kick all the grannies into the street.  They can't fight back anyway.

I love the smell of roast chicken in the morning!
by THE Twank (yatta blah blah @ blah.com) on Tue Mar 10th, 2009 at 09:48:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
According to a piece in Harpers', published during Bush's big push to privatise Social Security, that was exactly what they were planning. Inflate the bubble to create The Bush BDoom. They made out like bandits anyway.

(For the non-native English speakers, "Made out like bandits" is an obscure idiom for "Done Real Good")

by PIGL on Wed Mar 11th, 2009 at 05:31:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
They made off like Madoff.

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Mar 11th, 2009 at 05:38:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
S&P P/E ratios and US interest rate:

Wikipedia appends this commentary:

P/E ratio - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Robert Shiller's plot of the S&P Composite Real Price-Earnings Ratio and Interest Rates (1871-2008), from Irrational Exuberance, 2d ed.[1] In the preface to this edition, Shiller warns that "[t]he stock market has not come down to historical levels: the price-earnings ratio as I define it in this book is still, at this writing [2005], in the mid-20s, far higher than the historical average. ... People still place too much confidence in the markets and have too strong a belief that paying attention to the gyrations in their investments will someday make them rich, and so they do not make conservative preparations for possible bad outcomes."
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Mar 10th, 2009 at 09:38:04 AM EST
any idea what he was alluding to with

But in this L-shaped near depression the last thing one would have to worry about would be stock markets as more severe issues would have to be addressed.

Is he talking about ice cream parties, the smell of new mown grass, the smiles of children on Christmas morning?

Tell me, tell me!  Is it fun?  Will I giggle like a school girl?  Tell Me!

I love the smell of roast chicken in the morning!

by THE Twank (yatta blah blah @ blah.com) on Tue Mar 10th, 2009 at 09:55:28 AM EST
Time to plant your potatoes, Twank. Forget them truffles.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Mar 10th, 2009 at 10:05:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But Sir, the wealthy will always be there in some form and truffles will always be a delicacy so why don't I

  1. prove my value to the overlords

  2. hang out with them doing "science"

  3. do what I can for "others" on the side.

That whole "plant some potatoes" stuff just doesn't sound wise, especially since I just learned recently (Megan II's nutrition/metabolism class I'm tutoring) that the real problem won't be calories (i.e. starch from potatoes) but from want of protein.  Our bodies don't store that stuff and need a constant supply.

But I get your drift.  And I AM giggling.

I love the smell of roast chicken in the morning!

by THE Twank (yatta blah blah @ blah.com) on Tue Mar 10th, 2009 at 10:24:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Truffle farmers can be the object of torches and pitchforks as collaborators, and they tend to be much easier targets than well armed overlords.

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Mar 10th, 2009 at 10:35:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well you ain't invited to my truffle tasting parties, that's for sure. "collaborators"?  I prefer the term "whore", thank you.

Hey, speaking of whores, did you see that underwear site that some lady hitting on DoDo recommended?  Classy, but they don't have a newsletter for America.  What's that all about?

I love the smell of roast chicken in the morning!

by THE Twank (yatta blah blah @ blah.com) on Tue Mar 10th, 2009 at 10:44:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Who knows the answer to your final question? But I don't think the lady needs to be aprroximated to what you said...
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Mar 10th, 2009 at 11:03:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, I was referring to the underwear ad itself. Please, I've learned my lesson around this place.  The only person I can call a whore with impunity and accuracy is moi.  :)

I love the smell of roast chicken in the morning!
by THE Twank (yatta blah blah @ blah.com) on Tue Mar 10th, 2009 at 11:17:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What a wonderful title:

"Twank the Truffle Whore"  

I love the smell of roast chicken in the morning!

by THE Twank (yatta blah blah @ blah.com) on Tue Mar 10th, 2009 at 10:47:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
For protein, plant easy crops like lentils and chick peas.

And it sounds like you've got the squirrel protein cornered.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Mar 10th, 2009 at 11:00:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In terms of squirrel protein, Havahart traps are fairly inexpensive

and Sac State has a large arboretum suitable for trapping which nobody goes to.  Too outdoorsy for students.

In terms of being a lentil/chick pea farmer, I'd rather be Salma Hayak's truffle supplier, assuming I have a choice.  :)

I love the smell of roast chicken in the morning!

by THE Twank (yatta blah blah @ blah.com) on Tue Mar 10th, 2009 at 11:12:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Derivatives Echo Chamber : CJR

The Audit wants to know. What role did the press play in diffusing financial warnings in the years leading up to the current crisis?

We can't answer that question in its entirety--especially not in one post--but we can offer an example for your consideration: the press's supremely insufficient response to an important 1994 report by the Government Accountability Office, the investigative arm of Congress, warning about the dangers of derivatives--those largely unregulated financial instruments that have played such a central role in the current collapse.



If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Mar 10th, 2009 at 10:59:18 AM EST
The whole article is well worth reading.

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Mar 10th, 2009 at 11:05:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I have two problems here:

European Tribune - Buy Stocks, They Said

there is at least a third probability of an L-shaped global near depression rather than the mere current severe U-shaped recession

1.

there is at least a third probability

How does he know this? Is his analysis really so good that he can quantify the likelihood? Or does he simply use a better brand of chicken entrails than I do?

2.

an L-shaped global near depression rather than the mere current severe U-shaped recession

Again: The shape of a downturn - U, V, L, whatever - is only apparent after the fact. How does he know today that right now we're in a U-downturn?

Granted, Roubini is a bright man with an excellent track record. His grasp of reality is obviously quite strong. And his call may well be correct.

But what bothers me is that he is couching the language of his prediction in the language of the stock shills: in the same kind of loose language that the Santellis, Cramers and other telenablers used to separate people and money.

Even serious people only know how to talk this way, it seems...

Jesus died for somebody's sins but not mine - Patti Smith

by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Tue Mar 10th, 2009 at 11:09:23 AM EST
As he has done in all five of the last two recessions ...
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Mar 10th, 2009 at 11:14:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
When your opponents are insane, it's difficult to predict their moves.
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Mar 10th, 2009 at 12:01:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
dvx:
there is at least a third probability

How does he know this?

This sounds to me like there are three possibilities and he's assigning a 1/3 probability to each. Or he's conflating "possibility" with "probability"?

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Mar 10th, 2009 at 12:06:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, he isn't giving the details of his probability calculations on the free e-mail...

So the "third" is kinda BS-redolent.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Mar 10th, 2009 at 12:36:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Exactly. And unnecessary to boot.

Jesus died for somebody's sins but not mine - Patti Smith
by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Tue Mar 10th, 2009 at 01:14:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The Uhs & Pee 500 Sample, a/o timestamp, for comparison to Roubini Technical Analysis.

NameTickerEPSDIV ($)P/EP/S ($)
3MMMM4.892.049.05
AmExAXP2.27.0725.10
AutozoneAZO10.720.0014.51
First EnergyFE4.372.208.73
L3 CommLLL7.721.407.4
Robert HalfRHI1.63.0489.41
RR DonnelleyRRD0.001.04-0.9
WellpointWLP4.760.007.06
WyethWYE3.271.2012.68
United TechnologiesUTX4.91.548.1740.00

Source: data, Yahoo! Finance; list, grainmarketresearch NB. The secret ingredient in Roubini's headline $50 EPS --priming price signals for trade-- is rationalizing inventory jobs cost-avoidance, dressed in "per-share profit" which is the new black, as in ink. I'd like to credit GOOG for popularizing this buy point, as Schmidt shareholders never demanded a dividend and are still happy to hold rather than dump.

UTX to Cut 11,6000 Jobs Worldwide | Bloomberg | 10 March 2009

The company now forecasts per-share profit of $4 to $4.50, including 30 cents to 40 cents for the new restructuring plan, net of anticipated one-time gains of $200 million to $350 million. In January the company repeated a per-share profit range for this year of $4.65 to $5.15, compared with $4.90 in 2008. United Technologies, which had sales of $58.7 billion last year, rose $2.31, or 6.2 percent, to $39.87 at 11:29 a.m. in New York Stock Exchange composite trading. The shares dropped 43 percent in the year through yesterday.
How strange, brokers train investors to shun profit sharing.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Tue Mar 10th, 2009 at 01:14:08 PM EST
So, if e collapses - as it is doing - what will happen to P/e?

Modern conservatives engage in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy: the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.Galbraith
by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Tue Mar 10th, 2009 at 02:03:13 PM EST
Sometimes a company has negative earnings...

The proper ratio is E/P, then :-P

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Mar 10th, 2009 at 02:06:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
so what is the next currency?
by Lasthorseman on Tue Mar 10th, 2009 at 10:57:21 PM EST
Soemthing along these lines, perhaps?

A Unit redeemable in energy value?

Modern conservatives engage in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy: the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.Galbraith

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Wed Mar 11th, 2009 at 06:36:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
BBC NEWS | Business | Youngest billionaires lose money

The world's youngest billionaires have lost nearly a third of their wealth, according to Forbes rich list.

The average net worth of billionaires 40 and under is $2.9bn (£2.1bn), down 30% from last year.

The youngest billionaire is Germany's car-racing bachelor Prince Albert von Thurn und Taxis, who is worth about $2.1bn at the age of 25.



If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Mar 11th, 2009 at 11:01:55 AM EST
The average BBC copywriter is worthless at understanding and presenting numbers -  billionaires under 40 a year ago and now are different groups - many who were billionaire a year ago are not billionaires anymore, and quite a few who were under 40 are over 40 now...

It's quite likely that the median billionaire from a year ago isn't a billionaire anymore...

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Wed Mar 11th, 2009 at 11:20:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You should send them an e-mail pointing out this fact...

- Jake

"Terraforming your own planet to make it uninhabitable hardly counts as epic win." - ThatBritGuy

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Wed Mar 11th, 2009 at 04:13:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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