Sigh... the biggest problem is not (toxic) bank assets

by Jerome a Paris
Mon Mar 23rd, 2009 at 01:22:27 PM EST

The Geithner plan is yet another attempt to relieve banks of their toxic assets - all the irresponsible loans they made, willfully or not, to clients that will not be paying them back. Bad mortgages, bad mortgage-backed securities, bad loans to Lehmans or Icelandic banks, bad loans to vehicles that invested in the same, etc...

There's $2 or 3 trillion of these bad assets in the world's banking system right now. And Geithner's plan is to help the banks by inflating somewhat the value of these assets and funding their purchase with (mostly) taxpayer money.

But he's missing the real problem, and in the process, he's blowing another trillion of taxpayer money (just another friendly gift to the finance world) to actually *not* solve the financial crisis.


As strange as it may seem, banks' shitty assets are their smaller problem. Like the AIG saga is showing, the real problem is the size of their liabilities.

Thanks to the CDS market, the big financial institutions have taken to making very, very, very large bets on supposedly highly improbable events (ie, they's get a fee upfront and would commit to make a big payout if the unlikely event, say the bankruptcy of Lehman Brothers or AIG, happened). CDS were initially created as a risk-mitigation instrument, and they can certainly be used that way (for instance, if a transaction depends on a large payment by Lehman Brothers, it may be useful to buy the additional protection to guarantee the amount of that payment from someone else, typically a highly rated entity like AIG (used to be), should Lehman fail). But they turned out to have two great advantages:

  • they were a totally unregulated way to release regulatory capital: since you don't take the risk on Lehman anymore, you can re-use the amount you'd have normally needed to set aside for that exposure (apparently the regulators forgot to note that you took exposure on someone else instead for that amount, even if that someone else was highly rated); by using capital more than once, you can boost your returns;
  • they were a totally unregulated way to make bets: you did not need to have an actual need to hedge a position to purchase (or sell) them, which allowed you to bet mutliple times the amounts you could have under normal regulations on a given risk. By taking risks that were considered extremely low (like AAA rated risk) in high enough concentrations, you could make good income for (what was perceived as) no risk - or at least for no cost in equity;
So lots of financial players started taking those huge bets on supposedly unlikely things happening - with commitments to pay huge amounts should these things actually happen.

For those players, the CDSs are not assets, they are potential liabilities. They booked the upfront fee right away, are maybe getting a smallish yearly commission as income, and have this potentially huge payout to make if something bad happens to some company or asset.

Again, to get an idea of what kind of leverage we're talking about, read this article about John Paulson in last week's Economist:

Another motivating factor for Mr Paulson was the alluring asymmetry of shorting credit. The most you can lose is the spread over some benchmark rate. Yet if the bond defaults, the gains can be mouth-watering. He targeted BBB-rated tranches, the lowest in subprime securities. With credit spreads so low because of a liquidity glut, *his possible upside as a buyer of protection using credit-default swaps (CDSs) was as much as hundred times the potential downside*. One $22m trade is said to have netted him $1 billion when Lehman Brothers went bust.

And well, there were three problems:

  • One was that these unlikely things were not that unlikely (or, in any case, not as unlikely as suggested by the price used to take the risk). People tend to have trouble allocating proper probabilities to rare events, and bankers seem to be no better (go read Nicholas Taieb's *Black Swan*);
  • the second was that the "virtuous circle" effect of bubbles further distorted perceptions (asset prices are rising, people borrow more, they buy more assets whose prices go up; they can borrow more to repay earlier loans by backing that with rising collateral, thus reducing default rates, which encourages banks to lend yet more, etc...). All the securities that were seen as not risky at all in a bubbly environment were maybe riskier than they seemed. How could there be only 12 AAA-rated companies in the world, and 64,000 mortgage-backed securities with that same rating?
  • the third was that the very use of their instruments, and their heavy concentration in the hands of a small number of players actually created new risks that did not exist before. AIG could have survived underwriting a few billion of CDSs, but not 500 billion-worth of the stuff.
And of course it now turns out that, as should have been obvious (and was to people like John Paulson) these CDS were, in more than a few cases, very, very bad bets. And the number of cases is growing rapidly as the crisis gets worse and hits more companies and reduces more assets' values. Which means that those that underwrote these CDSs are faced with large - and mounting - bills.

Thje size of these bills potentially dwarfs the size of the toxic assets they are also saddled with.

And as the risks are increasing (or seen as increasing which may or may not be the same thing), those that underwrote the CDS are seen as increasingly weak, and those that bought the protection, or took naked bets (but how can you tell - this is all unregulated anyway), suddenly worry about their CDS counterparty in addition to worrying about (or hoping for, in the case of naked bets) the underlying insured event to happen. That CDS counterparty being, of course, a (until recently) highly rated financial institution.

CDS typically have mechanisms whereby the CDS underwriter may need to post collateral to guarantee its obligations: this is what brought AIG down: as signs of trouble started to build, it lost its AAA-rating, which triggered obligations to pay collateral to all its counterparties on its portfolio of CDSs. It is those obligations, all coming at the same time on a large pile of CDSs, that bankrupted it and led government to step in to make the necessary payments.

Note that initially, the government did not even use taxpayer money to make actual payments under the CDSs - just to post collateral. Now, as CDSs are triggered, full payments need to be made, thus the successive bailouts.

The justification for these bailouts is that not paying out on these CDSs could make some of the buyers of protection bankrupt themselves, thus triggering more CDS payments, giving birth to further liabilities for the institutions that underwrote the CDSs. In addition, givne that many of the buyers of CDS protection were banks or hedge funds, there is worry of a domino effect.

It is that liability crash which is the cause of the continued lack of trust in financial institutions by the markets themselves: they know that financial bombs are littered all over the landscape.

Buying toxic assets is "nice" for banks, but solves nothing. Bailing out AIG, oddly enough, could be seen at least as a step in the right direction - the problem of course being that if you're going to take care of all potential liabilities, the total bill might be in tens of trillions, rather than _mere_ trillions - with a lot of that money going to the smart hedge funds that bet on things going badly in various markets and for various institutions (cf Pauslon above).

Given all that, we have several routes:

  • one that gives a lot of money to banks that do not deserve it to solve their asset problem, but still do not make them creditworthy (the current Geithner plan), which gives stock markets a temporary boost, taxpayers permanent pain, and solves nothing;
  • one that does help them get rid of their real problem (huge contingent liabilities on bets that are turning sour), but is vastly more expensive than the mind-numbing numbers we're throwing around already, and gives all the money to hedgies: the AIG route, multiplied ten or hundred-fold;
  • one that acknowledges that the issue is liabilities rather than assets, and that focuses on the fact that a lot of these liabilities are wholy unrelated to any economic or financial activity, and are contingent rather than actual - ie nobody loses anything if they are cancelled. If a 100:1 bet you made is cancelled, your actual loss is not 100, it is 1 - something that could be paid back to you.
So far, the second route has been used when an emergency beckoned (AIG et al); the first route has been used massively but the Treasury does not seem tired of it yet, and the third one seems anathema.

Of course, it means taking the shiny toy away from the hands of the hedgie kids.

Why is that a bad thing, again?

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http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/3/23/712012/-Sigh...-the-biggest-problem-is-not-(toxic)-bank-assets

Thanks for your support - to have another version than the bonddad one visible over there...

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Mar 23rd, 2009 at 01:23:41 PM EST
Excellent.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Mar 23rd, 2009 at 02:31:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
seriously, how long until Obama realizes this is a trainwreck and pulls the plug on Geithner? (I sure hope he has a contingency plan...)Any bets on this??

"Once in awhile we get shown the light, in the strangest of places, if we look at it right" - Hunter/Garcia
by whataboutbob on Mon Mar 23rd, 2009 at 01:24:36 PM EST
Another question:  What does "How bad does it have to get until ..." look like?  How bad is BAD?  What does that look like on the news?  Kent State bad?  Times a couple thousand?

I love the smell of roast chicken in the morning!
by THE Twank (yatta blah blah @ blah.com) on Mon Mar 23rd, 2009 at 01:29:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
When they realize the banks can't/won't start lending again no matter how many bad assets are taken off their shoulders. Could be a long time and a lot more dollars down the tubes.

I can swear there ain't no heaven but I pray there ain't no hell. _ Blood Sweat & Tears
by Gringo (stargazing camel at aoldotcom) on Mon Mar 23rd, 2009 at 01:55:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Does Geithner actually understand the economy?
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Mar 23rd, 2009 at 01:56:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Geithner doesn't understand anything other than how to look like a complete idiot.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Mon Mar 23rd, 2009 at 01:57:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Mar 23rd, 2009 at 02:31:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Mon Mar 23rd, 2009 at 02:51:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]


Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Mon Mar 23rd, 2009 at 01:46:00 PM EST
Mig.s idea--sitting on the boat, on the second bottle of wine a few weeks ago.
Good idea.

Grabbing what you can, as John Ruskin said, isn't any less wicked when you grab it with the power of your brains than with the power of your fists.
by geezer in Paris (risico at wanadoo(flypoop)fr) on Mon Mar 23rd, 2009 at 02:12:09 PM EST
Seems like a lifetime away, in so many ways.

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 23rd, 2009 at 02:18:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes.
Been there.
Sucks, for a while. Gets better.

Grabbing what you can, as John Ruskin said, isn't any less wicked when you grab it with the power of your brains than with the power of your fists.
by geezer in Paris (risico at wanadoo(flypoop)fr) on Mon Mar 30th, 2009 at 05:33:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It is better. It just seems like longer.

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 30th, 2009 at 05:39:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
route 3. Sorry sirs! You burned the casino down, so the House is closed!

I know, not exactly fair and really does give the ol "sanctity of contracts" are firm kick in the butt, but this game was rigged from the get go.

The problems I have with honoring these contracts comes down to two major points for me:

1) When they were bundling these assets into pools, there were casing of out right fraud that passed on to the buyers. Mortgage specialists bundled CCC and BBB mortgages in with the AAA, just a sprinkle mind you, but put them in the mix and then sold them as AAA pools. This would also make these pools of asset fraud and not the savvy "toxic" name they currently enjoy.

I am still waiting for the indictments against these yahoos. I think I will be waiting a long time.

2) Now correct me if I am wrong, but if the mortgage value was fulfilled to the buyers by a bailout, then doesn't that make the CDS insurance/bet/looting null and void?

If the contract was fulfilled, even if artificially by a bail out, but fulfilled none the less, then isn't the insurance been covered?

It appears to be that AIG payouts are an elaborate scheme for certain hedgefunds to double dip at the taxpayer trough.

When world history is written, Texas will appear as a long elaborate joke.

by Pinche Tejano on Mon Mar 23rd, 2009 at 02:54:54 PM EST
European Tribune - Comments - Sigh... the biggest problem is not (toxic) bank assets
one that acknowledges that the issue is liabilities rather than assets, and that focuses on the fact that a lot of these liabilities are wholy unrelated to any economic or financial activity, and are contingent rather than actual - ie nobody loses anything if they are cancelled. If a 100:1 bet you made is cancelled, your actual loss is not 100, it is 1 - something that could be paid back to you.

I agree with you that by (say) making the CDS voidable - so that the premium may be refunded  and the contingent liability may be extinguished if there is no insurable interest - is a cool idea.

This would limit the leverage, and hence further systemic damage, but it doesn't actually limit the existing - increasingly unsustainable - liabilities which at least some of the CDS legitimately insured.

Index Fund Educator Home Page

An out-of-town visitor was being shown the wonders of the New York financial district. When the party arrived at the Battery, one of the guides indicated some handsome ships riding at anchor. He said,

"Look, those are the bankers' and brokers' yachts".

The naive customer asked:

"Where are the customers' yachts?"

The customers still don't have the yachts do they? The mechanisms you list only addresses the symptoms of the Anglo Disease which gave the bankers and brokers the yachts.

First, people have to become more creditworthy, and that can only be achieved through a fiscal mechanism. And redistributing taxes on income will not be enough, since it leaves wealth untaxed.

I advocate Systemic Fiscal Reform, by taxing Privilege not People. We may achieve this by shifting taxes away from earned income and onto the unearned gains and income and arising from privileges such as limited liability, and exclusive property rights over Commons.

Second, we must make the credit worthy of the people.

I advocate "Open" Credit - ie undated redeemable credits - issued directly Peer to Peer by producers of money's worth or value.

Modern conservatives engage in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy: the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.Galbraith

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Mon Mar 23rd, 2009 at 03:33:14 PM EST
You know, that naive customer sounds uncannily like Bertolt brecht

"Who built seven-doored Thebes?
In the books are the names of kings.
Did the kings haul the rocks?
And Babylon, many times destroyed-
who built it up these many times?  In which houses
of golden-gleaming Lima did the construction
workers live?

In the evening,
when the Chinese wall was finished,
where did the masons go?
The great Rome is full of triumphal arches.
Who erected them?  
Who did the caesars triumph over?

Did the many-sung Byzantium
have only palaces for its inhabitants?
Even in legendary Atlantis,
the night the sea vanquished it,
did the drowning cry for their slaves.

The young Alexander conquered India.
He alone?
Caesar defeated the gauls.
Didn't he have at least a cook with him?
Philip of Spain cried after his fleet had sunk.
Did no one else cry?

Frederick the Second was victorious in the Seven Year war.
Who won besides him?
Every page a victory.
Who cooked the victory feast?
Every ten years a great man.
Who paid his expenses?

So many reports.
So many questions."

"Schiller sprach zu Goethe, Steck in dem Arsch die Flöte! Goethe sagte zu Schiller, Mein Arsch ist kein Triller!"

by Jeffersonian Democrat (rzg6f@virginia.edu) on Mon Mar 23rd, 2009 at 07:15:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
How can allowing default insurance to be purchased by those with no insurable interest be anything but regulatory dereliction of duty?  How can purchasing or allowing default insurance to be purchased for multiple amounts of the potential default conceivably be justified, other than as a means of facilitating fraud?

Given that these products were and are largely to totally unregulated, why should we not expect that there are examples of multiple CDSs on a given default exposure, in some cases by the same institution?  Given the lack of appetite for prosecuting very wealthy individuals, why should there not be cases that have deliberately been set up to fail and then multiply insured?  

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer at eurotrib.com) on Tue Mar 24th, 2009 at 10:09:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If I insure my car more than once, and its insurance needs to pay out, it only pays out once, the other cliams are void, and if it turns out i've done something to bring about the claim, then I get arrested for fraud. How come it dosn't work the same way with Finance houses?

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Mar 24th, 2009 at 10:29:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Good question.  Have you heard of any such prosecutions? Do you have any confidence that lack of such prosecutions is evidence of lack of fraud?

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer at eurotrib.com) on Tue Mar 24th, 2009 at 11:44:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
not since Nick Leeson and no

 according to the Financial Ombudsman

The essential components of fraud are intent to deceive and desire to induce the firm to pay more than it otherwise would. Establishing these points can require an analysis of the claimant's motives.

Unless you wish to ad,it it's all just a big casino I think it fits.

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Mar 25th, 2009 at 08:41:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Is Financial Ombudsman describing UK or USA law or is there a difference on this?  It would seem reasonable to revise the law to make fraud prosecutions less dependent on demonstrating intent, or perhaps create a different legal category in both criminal and civil law not dependent on proving intent.  But then the politicians have another term for those we would call fraudsters: contributors.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer at eurotrib.com) on Wed Mar 25th, 2009 at 11:13:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's UK law in describing Insurance Fraud, but I would think that the definition and rules would pass fairly openly between the two.

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Mar 25th, 2009 at 11:15:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Credit default swap - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

CDS contracts have been compared with insurance, because the buyer pays a premium and, in return, receives a sum of money if one of the specified events occur. However, there are a number of differences between CDS and insurance, for example:

CDS were deliberately set up as "not insurance" so they wouldn't need to be regulated and they wouldn't be subject to capital requirements (i.e., no need to have enough capital to pay out, unlike regular insurance).

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 30th, 2009 at 05:41:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In fact it is the problem.  And the markets agree.
Indeed this new plan may be one of the better investments the US govt has made on behalf of the taxpayer...

http://mast-economy.blogspot.com/2009/03/how-toxic-assets-turn-to-gold.html

It will just take time... (which the government has)

GNE

by gne (good.news.econ@gmail.com) on Mon Mar 23rd, 2009 at 06:05:25 PM EST
gne:
It will just take time... (which the government has)

If the US economy were self contained, then yes, they have time. But it is not self contained in the way it was after the Great Depression - in particular it is not self contained in terms of its energy needs or its gigantic debts.

The current and future creditors of the US will IMHO certainly not be foisted off with the US plan. China in particular is getting extremely restless.

This

China urges new global reserve currency | The Australian

CHINA has called for the creation of a new international reserve currency to replace the US dollar over time, laying down an unusually direct demand for an overhaul of global finance ahead of next week's summit to craft a response to the financial crisis.

is only two hours old.

Modern conservatives engage in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy: the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.Galbraith

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Mon Mar 23rd, 2009 at 07:04:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What happens to CDSs written on assets that are dissolved?

If Citibank sells a pool of mortgage assets to someone else and they write it down, who is able to present a CDS against that pool and demand payment?

Second: are not a lot of those CDS counter-cancelling? If SG asks Citi to pay, can't Citi find some counterobligation of SG and use it to settle?

by rootless2 (redacted) on Tue Mar 24th, 2009 at 02:49:12 AM EST
CDS' are just side bets.  If A loses $2 trillion, B has made it.  From what's leaked in the press I can come up with 2 hedge funds that claimed to be making decent sized naked CDS bets and cleaned up in the $1-10 billion range.  Even AIG has only (only--yeah I know) lost $150-200 billion and most of their CDS exposure has been unwound.  Their 2 biggest counterparties -- GS and Deutchebank only took $10 billion or so off them.  

So just where were these bets you are worried about placed?  Who's holding the magic lottery tickets that will pay off 100:1?  Who besides AIG has major CDS exposure?  Extraordinary claims need a bit more than hand waving.

by HiD on Tue Mar 24th, 2009 at 05:01:15 AM EST
NBBooks has linked to sources on derivatives data here and here. He includes the following two graphs (from the OCC below)


These numbers come from the above report, the Federal Reserve Board's Report on the Condition of the U.S. Banking Industry: Second Quarter, 2006

Neither assets nor loans increase anywhere near as much as derivatives. In fact, as we are seeing now, the huge growth of derivatives has triggered a financial collapse in which the supply of credit is rapidly diminishing.

Main sources are The Office of the Comptroller of the Currency: Quarterly Derivative Fact Sheet (last update: 2008Q3)

Each quarter, based on information from the Reports of Condition and Income (call reports) filed by all insured U.S. commercial banks and trust companies as well as other published financial data, the Office of the Comptroller of the Currency prepares a report. That report describes what the call report information discloses about banks' derivative activities.
and the Federal Reserve Bulletin (2007):
From the first FRB article:
That's $450 trillion notional and $10 trillion "market value" of derivatives outstanding globally (of which $150 trillion underwritten by 5 US banks per the charts at the top) in 2006. A 45:1 bet, and as Jerome says it might be possible to pay off the $10 trillion just to get the $450 trillion of off-balance-sheet contingent liabilities off the table. The $10 trillion is carried on balance sheets.

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Mar 24th, 2009 at 06:28:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
to assume that there's actually going to be huge losses off of derivs.  These bets are a negative sum game (brokers get paid).  Everyone can't lose like you can in real estate or equities.

Ask the question from another direction.  If there's trillions being lost, who's making it?  The top 25 hedge fund managers made $11 billion in comp which implies $50-100 billion in earnings (and only 3-4 really hit home runs).  So if the money isn't showing up in hedge funds and the large I-banks and commercial banks are uniformly getting whacked and needing bailouts, just where is all that speculative profit flowing?

I still don't hear the dog barking.

by HiD on Thu Mar 26th, 2009 at 04:25:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
HiD:
I still don't hear the dog barking.

Me neither. I'm reminded of the Brent 15 day market with loads of open contracts but net exposure relatively minimal.

Bringing in a Central Counterparty is one way of netting out such open bilateral (OTC) contracts, but at the price of concentrating all the residual market risk in one Single Point of Failure.

Alternatively, a neutral custodian could hold the contract data, and clearing agent software like Ripple could net contracts out wherever possible.

Ripplepay.com - About Ripple

And that's how Ripple works. You create a profile on the system and indicate who you know and how much you trust them by connecting to people by email address and giving them credit limits. Then whenever you want to make a payment to another Ripple user using only friendly obligations, the system finds a chain of intermediaries connecting you to the person you want to pay, and records the payment in each intermediary's account all the way down the chain. You end up owing one of your "neighbours" on the system, and the payment recipient ends up being owed by one of her neighbours.



Modern conservatives engage in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy: the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.Galbraith
by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 02:27:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree.  I'm also reminded of how f--ed up Brent or any other forward market can get if one participant fails to perform. the chains fall apart and there's no fixing them easily.

AIG was the nexus here.  They were fools taking all bets with no capacity to take a hit.  But if their largest counterparties only had $10 billion ish of exposure (much of it already margined), how much more can be out there?

now on the CDO's there's still big problems if real estate continues to melt down.  But from what I see, real estate is getting cleared at about 60 cts on the dollar for the most part (some real disaster auctions in the central valley of CA).  So there's a floor under them much higher than the trading price of the paper.  Some bright sparks will make a killing off of the big banks puking this paper.

As for how to prevent this, I've no great idea other than requiring huge margining such that no one player can get too big to fail.  Your system has elements of the system that just failed us.  AIG was AAA with open credit all around.  Until suddenly they weren't and didn't.

I've heard some interesting tales of how the major oilcos simply shut down all credit with the wall streeters last fall.  Nearly brought physical trade to a halt.  Ugly.

by HiD on Mon Mar 30th, 2009 at 01:12:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Some bright sparks will make a killing off of the big banks puking this paper.

According to news reports - so take with appropriate amounts of salt - some bright sparks already are.  Reportedly a company in California is picking-up the paper for 22 cents on the dollar.


No one could have predicted

by ATinNM on Mon Mar 30th, 2009 at 03:03:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
From OCC: Publications - Qrtrly. Derivative Fact Sheet (Third Quarter 2008 -- 230 KB PDF)

  • Net current credit exposure increased 7% from the second quarter to $435 billion, a level 73% more than the $252 billion exposure of a year ago.
  • The notional value of derivatives held by U.S. commercial banks decreased $6.3 trillion in the third quarter, or 3%, to $175.8 trillion.
  • Derivative contracts remain concentrated in interest rate products, which comprise 78% of total derivative notional values. The notional value of credit derivative contracts increased by 4% during the quarter to $16.1 trillion. Credit default swaps comprise 99% of credit derivatives.
That is, CDS exposure of the US commercial banking system is $16 trillion, notional.

Throwing about the figure of $150 trillion overstates the CDS problem by a factor of 9.

(See my reply to a parallel top-level comment by HiD)

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Mar 24th, 2009 at 06:37:57 AM EST
I'd like to know what the net value of the outstanding CDS's is and I don't see any numbers.

In any event, when it comes down to pay that large sum, the actual value will not match notional value. Contracts are not money,

by rootless2 (redacted) on Tue Mar 24th, 2009 at 10:10:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
See the section on "credit risk" in here
... Legally enforceable netting agreements allowed banks to reduce the gross credit exposure of $2.8 trillion by 84.3% to $435 billion in net current credit exposure. ...

The second step in evaluating credit risk involves an estimation of how much the value of a given derivative contract might change in the bank's favor over the remaining life of the contract; this is referred to as the "potential future exposure" (PFE). PFE increased 6% in the third quarter to $884 billion. The total credit exposure (PFE plus the net current credit exposure) increased from $1.2 trillion in the second quarter of 2008 to $1.3 trillion in the third quarter.

So: gross credit exposure is $2.8 trillion. Net credit exposure is $435 billion. And "Potential Future Exposure" is $884 billion.

This is the "credit exposure" for all the derivatives, not just "credit derivatives".

It's interesting that you can have $16 trillion (notional) of outstanding CDS for a credit exposure of less than $4 trillion. Does that mean the credit risk is "insured" at least 4-fold, maybe more than 10-fold?

rootless2:

Contracts are not money
Right, I made that point in the comments to a previous diary.

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Mar 24th, 2009 at 10:26:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Aren't the banks likely to keep all of the 'decent toxic' assets and therefore what will be left to bid on will be just total crap that even with the incentives provided by the government; will drive away most bidders?

Even if the banks are successful in cleaning up their books; what guarantees are there for them to lend again since the US has no regulations in place requiring the banks to lend?

Why hasn't the US government allow for the consumers who can afford the payments, to recalculate their mortgages with amortization schedules over 50-75 years but on a 10 year note which would be affordable for many people to stay in their homes and provide a floor for the housing market? Allow their credit card debt to be rolled into the same mortgages but with the caveat they have to pay by debit card going forward?

by An American in London on Tue Mar 24th, 2009 at 09:05:05 AM EST
Aren't the banks likely to keep all of the 'decent toxic' assets and therefore what will be left to bid on will be just total crap that even with the incentives provided by the government; will drive away most bidders?

That's the point made by Simon Johnson and James Kwak (from The Baseline Scenario) in today's LAT:

Geithner's plan isn't money in the bank - Los Angeles Times

Second, there is a "lemons" problem, also known as adverse selection. Even with a reasonable degree of disclosure, the selling banks will still know more about their assets than the buyers. The banks will be trying to dump their most toxic assets (their lemons); the buyers, fearing exactly this behavior, will reduce all their bids accordingly. This will make it harder for buyers and sellers to meet.


"Ce qui vient au monde pour ne rien troubler ne mérite ni égards ni patience." René Char
by Melanchthon on Tue Mar 24th, 2009 at 02:11:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
but i thought that the horrible evil Timmy plan would inflate asset prices?
by rootless2 (redacted) on Tue Mar 24th, 2009 at 10:20:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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