What's the responsibility of the media?

by Jerome a Paris
Thu May 28th, 2009 at 06:26:02 AM EST

We briefly discussed the study by the Columbia Journalism Review about the responsibility of the media in the (non-)coverage of the early signs of the financial crisis and I wanted to revisit this here a bit.

The CJR article is an indictment of the business media, which it says did not do its job of bringing up the recklessness, irresponsibility and sheer fraud that characterised the housing and banking boom of the past decade. The CJR acknowledges that there were a number of articles in various publications (in particular the Financial Times) pointing to problems, but none that really brought about a change in behavior. They contrast this with some isolated cases where well-researched articles (usually about local scandals) led to actual investigations and punishment of financial firms, and note that enforcement of rules by public authorities is intimately linked to critical coverage of the issues by an investigative media corps.


And yet... the information was there, for who wanted to see it. Most of my blogging since 2004 has been based on information published in the business press. The crash was announced in many different ways in the FT, the WSJ, the Economist or the NYT, and regular readers of these publications cannot have been surprised by what unfolded. The facts were there, and a good deal of the smart analysis of these facts was there as well.

Of course, what was missing is not the information, but appropriate focus on such information - meaning that casual readers (a category that includes pundits and headline writers) did not get it very easily, or at all, or only as an occasional note of warning to what was largely upbeat - cheerleading, one might uncharitably say - coverage of the financial world.

What happened is that these critical bits of news did not trickle down... They were not picked up by headline writers, they were not picked up by the pundits (the Serious People) that create and repeat conventional wisdom ad nauseam, and they certainly did not appear in the less detailed coverage of finance which is provided by TV news, local papers and daily conversations, which filters what is said by the headlines of the business papers and the background context which permeates Serious People's articles.

Sometimes a single article can see its content immediately spread like wildfire and become common knowledge (think of Ron Suskind's article about the "reality-based community"), but that's not quite enough. Piketty and Saez's articles on widening income inequality are amongst the most quoted, but somehow inequality, while acknowledged, has still not become a topic worth discussing in public debate

In other words, the inconvenient facts did not join the mainstream - the basic stuff that most people that don't really pay attention do know (things like "stock market up = good news = the economy is doing well," "Europe = socialism = stagnant losers," "people making millions = successful = role models" and so forth). There's several layers of blame here:

  • journalists not writing enough about these facts, or burying them deep in articles;
  • editors and headline writers consistently focusing on other facts to put forward (either for corporate reasons;
  • pundits and other Serious People that do not incorporate these facts in the worldview that they use as background for everything they write (and that background, given that it's not the topic of the day, acquires more reality by being taken for granted);
  • readers who don't know better and swallow uncritically what's been reprocessed by pundits, press agencies and TV airheads.

A typical exemple was the run-up to the attack of Iraq, where critical facts were printed at the bottom of lenghty articles and otherwise ignored; and as the CJR article makes clear, coverage of finance in 2004-2007 was similarly biased and partial on the surface.

Blogs have done a good job of digging up those inconvenient facts and give them a bit more of the prominence they deserve; that the traditional media sees that as a threat is a recognition both of the indictment that they failed to do the job of analysing facts, and of the increasing likelihood that they are losing their privileged role as gatekeepers of the Common Wisdom.

But they while they point ot the failings of the media, they also point out that the solution, as buhdydharma never tires of telling us, can only happen because citizens are involved - informed enough, able to call on bullshit, and willing to stand up to do so.

And they also point the fact that the information was there in the first place thanks to the work of journalists - they are still indispensable, when they do their job. And the only way to make them do their job properly is to support them when they do, by actually reading them (and ignoring the talking heads that translate and distort the reality they report), and by concentrating our fire on the intermediate layers: the editors, headline writers, op-ed writers that choose which facts and which interpretation to focus on.

But we need the facts to be able to fight these. And while blog reporters are doing an increasingly important job, we'll still have to rely on journalists and newspapers to a large extent to get these. Let's not forget it.

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by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue May 26th, 2009 at 08:33:42 AM EST
You appear to have bought into the notion that the fourth estate forms a pillar of a modern democracy, and of course, at its best, it can.  But the fourth estate has also been a pillar of a corrupt establishment propagandising the call to war and the suppression of the masses.

The modern MSM has been corporatised to the point where its content is market research led - sometimes research into what its readers want to read, but increasingly, what its advertisers will help fund.

Genuine investigative reporting is not only very expensive, it is politically fraught, and commercially unviable in this context.  It happens now only when whistleblowers take the risk and provide the data, when academics or other independents do the hard work, or when what is being uncovered suit the political agenda of the proprietor - ref. Commons expenses scandal.

The Financial Times isn't about "changing behaviour" corporate or otherwise.  Local scandals are pursued because they threaten larger interests.  The business class isn't about a homogenous set of interests, but lots of competing self-interests, and if facts can be uncovered which damage competing interests, then well and good.  It lends a veneer of objectivity to the whole process if some things are criticised some of the time.

But we are all increasingly selective in the facts we use simply because they are so many out there, and it is not the business of the MSM to "trickle down" inconvenient facts if they damage the interests of the business class as a whole.  Even now the storyline is "the worst is over", "markets are up", "it's time to buy, buy buy".  Until the next Crash.

In Europe the blogosphere is still pretty marginal to this whole process.  It encourages a more critical reading of the MSM, but rarely originates much new material of its own.  

In Ireland the Institutional Child Sexual abuse scandal was largely popularised by Mary Raftery, an Irish Times journalist who produced the TV documentary "States of Fear," and wrote a book on the same subject, "Suffer The Little Children."   If I recall, the TV documentary was first broadcast by the BBC (not an Irish Broadcaster), and the Irish Times is of Protestant origins (and run by an independent, liberal, but pro-secular establishment non-profit trust) and has no difficulty with facts which portray the Catholic Church in a poor light.

So yes, Journalists can perform a very powerful public service, but only if they can ally themselves to powerful institutions with contrary interests. See http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/05/20/abuse-in-ireland-one-victim-responds/

notes from no w here

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Tue May 26th, 2009 at 09:39:24 AM EST
Frank Schnittger:
So yes, Journalists can perform a very powerful public service, but only if they can ally themselves to powerful institutions with contrary interests.
Or, as some people around here used to say, "buy media" (if you want to get an alternative narrative through).

The brainless should not be in banking. — Willem Buitler
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue May 26th, 2009 at 10:17:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Frank Schnittger:
You appear to have bought into the notion that the fourth estate forms a pillar of a modern democracy, and of course, at its best, it can.
When I was growing up we were told this in school, and self-respecting upstanding citizens had to read the newspapers (preferably in plural "to get a diversity of points of view"). The view that the media is part of the establishment is not only cynical but subversive.

The brainless should not be in banking. — Willem Buitler
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue May 26th, 2009 at 10:19:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
but of course not the tabloids... they're not for educated people.

notes from no w here
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Tue May 26th, 2009 at 10:27:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
At it's simplest, media owners deliver a loyal target audience to advertisers. Content is viewed as a means to preserve loyalty in sufficient numbers. Almost all resources are focused on that loyalty.

It wasn't always this way...

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Tue May 26th, 2009 at 10:41:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
and Mig accuses me of cynicism!!!!

notes from no w here
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Tue May 26th, 2009 at 10:47:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I was vaguely staggered to read this in the leader pages of last week's Economist: "A newspaper is a package of content - politics, sport, share prices, weather and so forth - which exists to attract eyeballs to advertisements"

On the issue of rising inequality mentioned by Jerome, the authors of "The Spirit Level: Why More Equal Societies Almost Always Do Better" have been doing a decent job of getting the word out in the media.

The book is selling pretty well it seems:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Spirit-Level-Societies-Almost-Always/dp/1846140390

http://www.bookdepository.co.uk/book/9781846140396/The-Spirit-Level
 

by MaBozza (greig.aitken AT gmail.com) on Tue May 26th, 2009 at 10:55:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I have that on my list. Any good?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue May 26th, 2009 at 10:56:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I have to wrestle with this most days - the media dialogue (not monologue) with audience, but, for what it's worth, it has been an easier sell recently.

I always say that I do a good paint job. If you were buying a new car and the paint job was blemished, it would cause you to suspect quality elsewhere - even though the paint job has no bearing on the engineering quality.

It is not often I get the chance to have my full say on strategy with clients, because marketing, like consciousness, is after the fact. But I've been hammering on about corporate honesty for several years now, and finally am getting some enthusiastic nods round the table.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Tue May 26th, 2009 at 04:41:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Corporate integrity was the hot ticket item for management consultants when I was leaving management.  They did quite a good sales job on it...

"The most important thing in life is sincerity.  When you can fake that you've got it made....  --George Burns

notes from no w here

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Wed May 27th, 2009 at 04:56:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
sigh...step 1, recognise the problem, step 2, change the appearance of the problem.

don't address it!

"Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do." Jim Hightower

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Mon Jun 1st, 2009 at 06:44:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I won't argue about the many problems and weak points of MSM you point out. All your points are certainly valid.

But that in no way undercuts Jerome's point: that an informed polity requires a dedicated system for aggregating and disseminating information ("news").

The blogosphere has not superseded the MSM in this function; rather, major parts of the blogosphere are built on top of its product.

So until the blogiverse is capable of performing this function systematically, I have to agree with Jerome:

we need the facts to be able to fight these. And while blog reporters are doing an increasingly important job, we'll still have to rely on journalists and newspapers to a large extent to get these.


Jesus died for somebody's sins but not mine - Patti Smith
by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Tue May 26th, 2009 at 11:41:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
indymedia.org seemed like a good idea but I'm afraid its impact is not what it could be.

The brainless should not be in banking. — Willem Buitler
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue May 26th, 2009 at 01:06:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"impact": What is this characteristic of information? And how would you quanlify --or measure-- that characteristic?

At this point in time, many readers and writers (or internet "users" especially) are trained to apprehend the quality of information primarily by it's quantity, for example...

  • length --number of words or minutes
  • reproducibility --number of copies
  • exposure (circulation, impressions) --broadcast area in terms of km2 or  population/km or devices/population
  • responses --number of "comments" or "ratings" or
  • "recall" --number of affirmative responses by survey


Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Wed May 27th, 2009 at 10:19:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think Impact in this case can be described as Market penetration. not enough people go there as a source of news and it is unfortunately mainly preaching to the converted.

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed May 27th, 2009 at 12:48:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, that's an interesting angle. "Market penetration" however is, like "exposure," another expression of the one concept, "market share," a ratio of total sales recorded (unit or price level). Indeed MSM --publicly traded and state-owned-- saturates many a market.

So you're suggesting IndyMedia "impact" is low or weak, because the share of IndyMedia readers is low among all "converted" readers which is a subset of all readers? That is an extraordinary claim. To what other "alternative news agency" does one compare IndyMedia exposure? I hope not Technocrati or Digg clients' sitemeter counters --confirming the overwhelming tendancy of blog operators to reproduce MSM stories.

On the other hand, are you saying "market penetration" measures the number of  reporters (and "stringers") assigned to a particular geographic market? If so, my understanding is that the Independent Media Center (IndyMedia) franchise operates regional servers worldwide to collect and broadcast news files submitted by volunteer reporters, commentators, and translators. Could one reasonably argue "low impact," or thin coverage of local, regional, worldwide events if the total numbers of volunteers is unknown?

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Wed May 27th, 2009 at 02:31:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think what I mean by "low impact" is that it doesn't seem to me like indymedia stories are often carried by other sources. But maybe I'm not looking at the right sources.

The brainless should not be in banking. — Willem Buitler
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri May 29th, 2009 at 02:07:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's still not very clear. Does Pepsi often deliver Coke to its customers? If you assume that the MSM competes with IM, then why should e.g. an MSM outlet carry IM information?

--
$E(X_t|F_s) = X_s,\quad t > s$
by martingale on Fri May 29th, 2009 at 04:21:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Because the M$M outlets plagiarise their "competitors" endlessly and unashamedly?

- Jake

"Terraforming your own planet to make it uninhabitable hardly counts as epic win." - ThatBritGuy

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Fri May 29th, 2009 at 06:54:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
dvx: The blogosphere has not superseded the MSM in this function; rather, major parts of the blogosphere are built on top of its product.

So until the blogiverse is capable of performing this function systematically, I have to agree with Jerome:

we need the facts to be able to fight these. And while blog reporters are doing an increasingly important job, we'll still have to rely on journalists and newspapers to a large extent to get these.

this needs to be said more often.

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.

by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Tue May 26th, 2009 at 11:04:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
All "news" is information, but not all information is "news."

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Wed May 27th, 2009 at 10:21:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Genuine investigative reporting is not only very expensive, it is politically fraught, and commercially unviable in this context.  I

Le Canard Enchainé proves the opposite. They have no advertising, are consistently profitable, and have brought down at least one president and countless ministers and other powerful figures (for instance, they broke Papon's role during WWII, eventually leading to his sentence for war crimes almost 20 years later - he was minister of budget at the time)

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue May 26th, 2009 at 12:43:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Frank Schnittger:
It happens now only when whistleblowers take the risk and provide the data, when academics or other independents do the hard work, or when what is being uncovered suit the political agenda of the proprietor - ref. Commons expenses scandal.
You conveniently dropped the following sentence - could Le Canard do what it does without anonymous whistleblowers?

The brainless should not be in banking. — Willem Buitler
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue May 26th, 2009 at 01:04:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
but at least they have created a place for whistleblowers to get the info out - by protecting their sources, keeping their credibility, and withstanding massive political pressure at times.

And they do print their own investigations, and just the fact of keeping some embarrassing stories in full view is a vital one.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed May 27th, 2009 at 09:11:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't know enough about Le Canard Enchainé's business model to comment on the accuracy of your comment, but even if you are correct, is it not the exception that proves the rule?  Very occasionally the Irish Times might do an in depth feature which required a lot of investigation (probably as a loss leader), but smaller titles which tried to do the same have failed in Ireland - probably because the media market is small.

The Washington Post did the Watergate expose and seems to have been living off (and living down) that coup ever since..  The current "States of Play" thriller (which I haven't seen) is all about heroic journalist who breaks big story against mega corporate interests.  But how often does this really happen?  The commercial reality is that celebrity rags do better, and it is so much easier and cheaper to overlay the press releases with some op-ed to provide the veneer of critical objectivity.

notes from no w here

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Wed May 27th, 2009 at 10:19:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
has been doing investigations on a systematic basis for decades. It has also been consistently profitable, with no adivertising whatsoever (ie ony from sales and financial income on reserves - they never distribute any profits).

They've been behind most of the major scandals in France over the past 40 years.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed May 27th, 2009 at 10:50:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Jerome a Paris:
They've been behind most of the major scandals in France over the past 40 years.

Presumably you mean they have exposed them rather than been behind them!

notes from no w here

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Wed May 27th, 2009 at 10:58:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
How do they do it?  Any articles on it?  Do they have a big endowment?  I am aware of at least one newspaper that was turned into a ESOP to benefit the staff by the daughter and son-in-law of the last "for profit" publisher.  I would think that this sort of model, rather like what was described for The Irish Times, could be a good one.  The bigger the endowment the better, but I suspect the arrangement would have to be set up during the lifetime of the benefactor in order for it to have a chance to endure.  Many interests would have a strong desire to neuter if not smother such enterprises.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer at eurotrib.com) on Thu May 28th, 2009 at 11:48:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't know enough about Le Canard Enchainé's business model to comment on the accuracy of your comment, but even if you are correct, is it not the exception that proves the rule?

You could also argue that it proves that when broadcast media play to their strengths, it works.

The fact that most broadcast media fail to do so is no more an indictment of the media platforms in and of themselves than the election of Václav Klaus is an indictment of representative democracy as a whole.

- Jake

"Terraforming your own planet to make it uninhabitable hardly counts as epic win." - ThatBritGuy

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Wed May 27th, 2009 at 05:53:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In Europe the blogosphere is still pretty marginal to this whole process.  It encourages a more critical reading of the MSM, but rarely originates much new material of its own.

Looking at the politics that I have been most involved in, Internet surveilliance vs Internet freedom in Sweden, the evolving pattern is that pretty much all the new material is produced online by non-journalists. On a particular issue - the FRA-law, the swedish implementation of IPRED, the parliamentary treatment of the telecom package, the ACTA negotiations - there is usually a group of bloggers that does the digging in particular sub-questions (in collaboration with their commenters), a wiki to collect and sort the data and some form of campaign site to formulate the slogans, press-releases and coordinate activities. And a facebook-group tied to the campaign page to draw traffic and utilise the networking effects of that site.

In general I would agree with the quoted bit, but there are examples to show that it need not be so.

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Wed May 27th, 2009 at 04:40:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
These examples usually, in my impression, involve official documents, available in the a language the bloggers understand, that can be found on the internet.

That's where bloggers have the advantage: If the primary source is on the 'net, there is nothing that a reporter can do that a good blogger can't also do.

On the other hand, blogs do not (yet) have reporters on the ground in - say - Georgia, to tell which way the tanks are actually driving, and which city the rocket artillery is actually shooting at. Good as the deconstructions of the official Western(TM) line was (and I note that I got the deconstruction on ET before the Danish press started reporting on the events plagiarising CNN), it would not have been possible without AFP and TASS...

- Jake

"Terraforming your own planet to make it uninhabitable hardly counts as epic win." - ThatBritGuy

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Wed May 27th, 2009 at 05:26:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's possible as blogging becomes more visible reporters won't be needed - or will only be needed in very hard to reach areas.

People who live in an area will do their own reporting. We saw that with Katrina and Iraq, and the information, detail and interest level were usually much better than the MSM reporting.

Talking to camera isn't hard. Viewers don't care if it looks amateurish, as long as the coverage is interesting. And there's a generation growing up now which is YouTube literate, and doesn't see MSM TV as an exclusive 'serious' news source.

So single viewpoint editorialised reporting will start to become more rare, replaced by self-selected eyewitness footage and perhaps some random analysis from opionated people.

If you look at BBC News 24, there's only about four hours of real content there each day - the rest of it is autocue reading and repetition. It's starting to look very rigid and contrived as a format. (Which it always has been - but without competition, no one noticed.)

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Wed May 27th, 2009 at 06:19:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
yea what's with the news channels repeating the same stuff every 30 minutes?  Just when TV gets a format that facilitates in depth coverage, they dumb the whole thing down again.

notes from no w here
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Wed May 27th, 2009 at 06:55:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Truth is a precious thing; use it sparingly?  Content costs money, especially the traditional model.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer at eurotrib.com) on Thu May 28th, 2009 at 11:53:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's possible as blogging becomes more visible reporters won't be needed - or will only be needed in very hard to reach areas.

That depends. If they continue to play to their weaknesses (political analysis tea leaf reading, recycled press releases, manufactured stories, incessant (and unattributed!) plagiarism - sorry, "syndication" and copy-pasted Reuters newsfeeds) instead of playing to their strengths (access to institutions, the ability to dispatch correspondents worldwide on short notice, large and varied archives(!) and the ability to force confrontations with insiders), then they will lose relevance, influence and, not to put too fine a point upon it, raison d'etre.

But if they play to their strengths instead of their weaknesses, they will play an important part of the media landscape throughout this iteration of democracy.

- Jake

"Terraforming your own planet to make it uninhabitable hardly counts as epic win." - ThatBritGuy

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Wed May 27th, 2009 at 09:55:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
the big loss will be this one

the ability to force confrontations with insiders


If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed May 27th, 2009 at 12:52:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That and the ability to put people where bloggers won't or can't go. How many bloggers are providing independent ground coverage of the Chechen conflict? Of the dirty war in Columbia? Of Georgia's little misadventure in South Ossetia?

And for that matter, you can add providing an institutional framework for whistleblowing. While whistleblowers could hypothetically contact - say - DailyKos, the blogosphere has precious little history of dealing with whistleblowers, and it just takes one security cock-up to make life really miserable for a guy who takes on - say - Volkswagen or ThyssenKrupp.

The really sad thing is that the broadcast media have already largely surrendered two of these critical strengths. If the entire press goes "ooh, shiny!" whenever a spin doctor feeds a press release to a tame newsie, its ability to keep its eyes on the ball long enough to support whistleblowers and force confrontations with insiders is seriously compromised (to put it nicely...). And the salient point here is that blogs and other grassroot media can't - at least in their present form - replace those aspects of the broadcast media.

- Jake

"Terraforming your own planet to make it uninhabitable hardly counts as epic win." - ThatBritGuy

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Wed May 27th, 2009 at 06:06:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There was an entire blog devoted to on the spot coverage in Chechnya. But it seems to have closed now. (Or been closed down.)

More exotic places don't necessarily have convenient infrastructure - yet.

The idea of blogging is relatively new, and the idea of news blogging is even newer. Just because it hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it's not possible.

And I'm not completely convinced by the whistleblower points. Hasn't Wikileaks been doing exactly this?

The move to blogging doesn't just mean a move away from one-to-many media - it means a move away from passive spoonfeeding of editorial narratives, and of the idea of the Inherent Personal Authority of reportage and editorial.

That's a good thing, because a multiplicity of independent sources improves the overall quality of news reporting.

It's a bad thing if you want to make a policy point and have people support you, because first you have to find an audience, and then you have to keep their attention for long enough to create democratic pressure - all of which will become harder.

But it can be done. At the moment the European right is doing it more successfully than the left is. The left is leading in the US.

But that only proves that it can be effective.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu May 28th, 2009 at 09:34:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think that the wiki is probably a media form in and of itself - it has many of the features of grassroot media, but it also retains many of the features of broadcast media. Among them a rather strong editorial control, at least compared to more "orthodox" peer-to-peer systems. The main difference between wikipedia and a traditional lexicon seems to be that wikipedia is open and above board about the editorial process.

- Jake

"Terraforming your own planet to make it uninhabitable hardly counts as epic win." - ThatBritGuy

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Thu May 28th, 2009 at 11:00:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As the main source, yes. Official documents offline - but public - has also been an important source. And get enough of a crowd going and you will have someone in the right place with a camera or a taperecorder.

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!
by A swedish kind of death on Wed May 27th, 2009 at 08:48:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I've written about the interaction between broadcast media and grassroot media here and here.

Highlight:

Newspapers and other broadcast media have two big advantages over blogs and other grassroots media: Access and organisation.

Broadcast media can get face time with people who are normally inaccessible to Joe Blogger, and they have a background organisation that means they can have people on the ground where things happen.

They also have two major disadvantages: Lack of specific expertise and lack of feedback.

and


  1. What makes a blog interesting is the ease of interaction (and ease of transition) between readers and contributors.

  2. Blogs are an integral part of what may be called "grassroot media" - a media segment that includes SMS chains, video blogs like YouTube, other kinds of social networking sites and, in the widest possible definition, any direct peer-to-peer interaction.

  3. The word "peer" is crucial. While it is not necessary to permit every potential contributor to make full posts, a relatively open comments section is an absolute requirement for a living blog.

  4. Following directly from 3) the relative lack of a top-down structure means that "grassroot media" propagates by word of mouth and maintains its style and focus through peer pressure rather than overt editorial control (various moderation roles excepted).

  5. "Grassroot media" should not under any circumstance be organised by people who hold positions of responsibility in organised parties/news organisations/NGOs/etc.

  6. Pt. 5) does not, however, mean that MPs and other party officials should not be core contributors. In fact they probably should, but they must not have editorial control.

- Jake

"Terraforming your own planet to make it uninhabitable hardly counts as epic win." - ThatBritGuy

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue May 26th, 2009 at 10:24:00 AM EST
If I were an elected politician, the first thing I would do is start a regular, at least weekly, blog telling my constituents what I had been doing on their behalf, and giving them the opportunity to raise issues of concern.  Politics then can become a dialogue and a marketplace of ideas, simulated some of the intimacy that has been lost in our increasingly populous societies.

I don't read any elected politician's blogs, so I don't know to what extent they already do this, and to what extent they allow dialogue.  I suspect there could be quite a problem with spammers/hate mailers.  But if they allow the development of genuine dialogue, then I would consider it an enhancement of our democracy - particularly for MEPs who would otherwise be quite remote from their constituents.

notes from no w here

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Tue May 26th, 2009 at 10:35:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In my experience, politicians' blogs are rather like celebrity blogs. Often they have no comments, in which case the blog is just a convenient piece of software to publish press releases.

If they have comments, they usually are moderated. And the politician will rarely descend to the comment thread. So it's one-way communication and a forum for fans/detractors. Often the posts will be ghost-written by the politician´s staff. In the US, Democratic politicians have started to write diaries on DKos.

When political parties attempt community blogging, they do astroturfing and it backfires (as in the recent case of LabourList).

Politicians are starting to use twitter and facebook, but the quality (and quantity) of the debate on facebook is very low.

So, we're not there yet.

The brainless should not be in banking. — Willem Buitler

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue May 26th, 2009 at 10:40:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Astroturfing as in

TH!NK ABOUT IT - european blogging competition 2009 » Blog Archive » Margot Wallström Guest blog post

Is blogging not about having a conversation? Why has there been no response to the many excellent points made above? If the EU thinks that blogging is just another one way street to propagandise the masses they are making a serious mistake. You have to engage with people and address their points - otherwise we are all wasting our time here.


notes from no w here
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Tue May 26th, 2009 at 11:01:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That would be usual for Wallstrom, Piebalgs, etc.

You can see this as evidence of dysfunctional, or perhaps non functional, media. Or you can see it for what it is - which is another example of democratic deficit.

Blogs are noisy people-driven media. Professional media aren't noisy. They're not just Serious™ - which is a good antonym for noisy and tainted by messy emotion - but they're also relentlessly on-message.

In media-speak blogs are many-to-many, the MSM is one-to-many. The one-to-many model, where a single source coherently repeats and promotes opinions, is inherently undemocratic.

The real point of media isn't to get people listening to politicians, lobbyists and experts, it's to get politicians, lobbyists and experts listening to and talking back to people.

On that criterion, all of the MSM get a fail - because the real job of the MSM, as and when debate appears to happen, is to reflect and shape the opinions of policy makers. The strict monopoly on strategy held by these people excludes anyone who isn't already on the inside.

In the context of the meltdown, it's useful to remember that the crash was visible ahead of time to almost everyone who wasn't a media or political leader.

So the best you'll get from the MSM is manufactured scandals like the MP and MEP expenses story - which appear populist, but in fact are perfectly timed to herd the electorate like sheep in a useful direction.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue May 26th, 2009 at 11:41:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
ThatBritGuy:
In the context of the meltdown, it's useful to remember that the crash was visible ahead of time to almost everyone who wasn't a media or political leader.
That is scary - are we letting the blind lead the one-eyed?

The brainless should not be in banking. — Willem Buitler
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed May 27th, 2009 at 06:29:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Is that news to you?

- Jake

"Terraforming your own planet to make it uninhabitable hardly counts as epic win." - ThatBritGuy

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Wed May 27th, 2009 at 09:55:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In media-speak blogs are many-to-many, the MSM is one-to-many. The one-to-many model, where a single source coherently repeats and promotes opinions, is inherently undemocratic.

This is a crucial distinctions between modes of communication, telephony and its engineering in particular.

Whether or not one wants to characterize a broadcaster "undemocratic" is a trivial matter in consideration of structural barriers which physically prevent "everyman" competing with MSM publishers to broadcast messages to a finite audience.

That is send/receive capacity (a/k/a mbps) assigned by subscriber class (data/voice/video, commercial/personal) by ICT-type (fiber/copper/satellite/radio) of carrier or operator. Isn't it odd, one can always receive twice as much as one can send?

The net-neutrality crew tends to promote the bane of content censorship over property exclusions.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Wed May 27th, 2009 at 10:42:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
For an example of Wallström's desire to engage with EU citizens, see the Open Letter we adressed to her and Piebalgs three years ago. It's signed by twelve EU citizens of varying nationalities and countries of residence.

We're still waiting for even an acknowledgement.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue May 26th, 2009 at 12:10:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Excellent letter.  And then they agonise over a democratic deficit? Revel in it would be more likely...

notes from no w here
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Tue May 26th, 2009 at 12:17:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
See also EU to ban blogs by Starvid on June 26th, 2008.

The brainless should not be in banking. — Willem Buitler
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed May 27th, 2009 at 06:35:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
i think they only agonise around election time, too little, too late, they stumble out of their fog and wonder why they people are on a totally different wavelength, patiently waiting for ceeb's 'honest poiticians'.

the parties want more votes for the wrong reasons, ie, to put lipstick on the pig of their voter-apathy numbers.

if they did want to do something very positive for many people, i suspect they wouldn't be allowed anywhere near the levers of power... yet. another generation or two, as others have suggested here.

there are just enough intelligent ones allowed in, to make the others' average rise to....average.

a lot of them are just functionaries for lobbyists.

"Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do." Jim Hightower

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Mon Jun 1st, 2009 at 07:23:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
A politician who attempts to run a blog faces a couple of quite possibly insurmountable structural concerns. First, and most important, is the fact that the politician does not simply represent him- or herself. When Jerome writes about the ongoing Russo-Ukranian gas crisis, he can do so without it being seen as taking stands on behalf of his employer (as long as he takes a couple of elementary precautions). A politician does not have that luxury. Of necessity, then, politicians are restricted to staying "on message," or at the most to deviate from it in ways that are - to use that memorable phrase - "mostly harmless."

The second important concern I'd highlight is the fact that politicians must always expect to have their words used against them. If Markos or Majikthise gets involved in an in-depth discussion, and makes a remark in the context of a twenty post long dialogue, they can be reasonably sure that it will only be read by people who are actually interested in the dialogue in question. A professional politician, on the other hand, must always protect himself against quote mining by his enemies. Again, this tends to turn commentary "mostly harmless," and at any rate reduces the degree to which he or she can follow a train of thought to its conclusion in a public forum.

Finally, politicians are expected to not backtrack in plain view of the public, and so are hesitant to go out on a limb in public and to admit to error or correction in a forum where his new stance is immediately and very visibly comparable with his old stance.

Of these three, only the third point can be changed by improving our democratic culture. It would certainly be an improvement if politicians were less scared of being proven wrong on the facts, more willing to admit that there are things they do not know and more willing to accept corrections from people who do actually know. But the first two points are, as far as I can tell, an integral part of the nature of (representative) politics.

- Jake

"Terraforming your own planet to make it uninhabitable hardly counts as epic win." - ThatBritGuy

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue May 26th, 2009 at 11:52:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Politicians face these issues every time they speak in public and are skilled at doing so.  Being a member of the Irish Government and responsible for European Affairs didn't stop Roche criticising Klaus in trenchant terms.  

Of course if you are in "public life" you have to be more measured and keep well away from flame wars etc. Even we have to learn such lessons!  Every lawyer has to learn to develop and stick to a brief. Every businessman has to try and present their business/products is the most positive possible light. In politics, your party won't thank you for repeating opposition talking points.  

But ultimately, if you want people to relate to and vote for you, you have to present yourself and your views to them, and if that means taking some crap, then so be it.  I see blogs as a way for plitics to connect better with their electorate, adn if they are afraid/unable ti do so, they probably shouldn't be in politics in the first place!

notes from no w here

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Tue May 26th, 2009 at 12:55:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Politicians face these issues every time they speak in public and are skilled at doing so.  Being a member of the Irish Government and responsible for European Affairs didn't stop Roche criticising Klaus in trenchant terms.

That is true as far as it goes, but what makes blogs and other grassroot media different from broadcast media is the possibility of a real dialogue. A courtroom spiel or a sales pitch is a monologue (or, in the case of a courtroom tactic, two or more opposing monologues).

It's not just about keeping away from flame wars, or not divulging confidential information - rules every good blogger should follow. It's about being inflexible, not circumspect.

And an interview situation is much more controlled than a blog dialogue. For one thing, there's only one interviewer - or at most two - so you don't have to repel criticism from more than a couple of directions at once. Second, it is very hard for the interviewer to point out that the person he is interviewing is simply flat out wrong on the facts, or that you are lying to his face - that's against the genre convention that the interviewer has to be "neutral."

Third, the interviewer is on the clock. A blog conversation spans hours or days and it's asynchronous, meaning that each contributor can take as much time as he needs to get his thoughts in order. So it's much harder to parry a point with a glib one-liner that leaves the other guy groping for words. But unlike LTEs, which are similarly asynchronous, the record of the conversation is readily at hand, so you can't simply pour the inconvenient parts down the memory hole.

In short, there are structural reasons that make it much more challenging to get away with giving a sales pitch (or with playing fast and loose with the facts) on a blog (or another grassroot medium) with an even moderately attentive audience than in a newspaper or TV interview, given the same audience.

- Jake

"Terraforming your own planet to make it uninhabitable hardly counts as epic win." - ThatBritGuy

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue May 26th, 2009 at 02:44:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think blogs are more important than they seem. There will probably always be a trivial swirl of personal vanity blogs, facebooks, etc.

But once you get people reading and commenting together, there's the potential to influence politicians in the same way that lobbyists do.

The key is voting demographics. Voters are mostly conservative and older, which is why the BNP is running its ridiculous Spitfire+Churchill campaign. They're aiming for the generation which can identify with those, and that won't mean people in their 20s and 30s.

Once that older generation is the one that remembers blogging, a decade or two from now, politics will have to become more interactive. The MSM will have faded and/or fragmented by then, so a simple one-to-many message will no longer be practical.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue May 26th, 2009 at 04:56:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I hope you're right, because the medium does have some built in advantages that will be very hard to strip out.

On the other hand... have you taken a look at a YouTube comment thread recently?

- Jake

"Terraforming your own planet to make it uninhabitable hardly counts as epic win." - ThatBritGuy

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue May 26th, 2009 at 05:10:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
YouTube has no moderation, and no subject focus, so it's a free for all. It also doesn't try to model a user culture.

Most blogs include have a culture of their own, and dissenters can always be taken out and shot. Or banned - whichever is easier.

So scrappy free for alls aren't inevitable. You only need good enough moderation for something worthwhile to emerge.

And blogs have a very live reputation. When Kos bans someone, all of the related communities know about it. So there's a feedback feature there which makes it possible for respectable non-flame-ish blogs to coalesce and start having an effect.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Wed May 27th, 2009 at 06:26:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't disagree with you, but there are ways around the problems you pose.  It isn't necessary for a politician (or a blogger) to respond point for point to all the comments on his post.  Usually a dialogue develops between the bloggers and they answer each others points.  If a flame war develops or the dispute is going around in circles the politician would be best advised to keep out of it in any case.

All that is required is that the politician shows that he has read and taken some account of some of the main points of a conversation in a subsequent post.  In fact it could be argued that the comments space if where the constituents get a chance to have their say and the politician should give them the space to say it in their own way.  You can't win with a bunch of people who are just trying to prove they're smarter than you and looking for a chance to catch you out.

You just go to the next post and articulate what impact the discussion has had on your thinking.  The guys who want you to endorse every line of their spiel are the guys you don't want to be dealing with directly.  You have a very large and diverse constituency to represent and can't allow yourself to be rail-roaded by a few zealots - unless you happen to agree with them!

notes from no w here

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Wed May 27th, 2009 at 05:17:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Dutch minister of Foreign Affairs (and most of the time I find him a prick), started to use Twitter already before he became minister.

He's still tweeting (see here), actually does this in person, responds and jokes with his audience and frequently uses Twitter as a test group to ideas / statements / news events.

The Dutch MEP candidates are now also on Twitter, but this looks like more of a stunt. Verhagen has made consistently use of it.

Granted, Twitter is not a blog and it won't go in depth - but it is interactive with people and it's refreshingly open. I must say, Verhagen gets my credits for this.

by Nomad on Tue May 26th, 2009 at 06:22:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
We've already seen:

Twitter as a form of engagement

The BNP using the web to raise nearly £400,000 (successfully, too)

An MEP candidate taking donations by SMS - which is a very, very clever move, because younger people are conditioned to vote and pay for media and content by SMS

There are other new models which new media will make possible. The MSM won't be competing because there's still this 19th century idea of The Writer or The Editor who monopolises your attention with their inherently valuable and entertaining insights and bon mots, set in the shining frame of a magnificent vehicle called a newspaper or TV show.

That idea is dying now. It's being reinvented on blogs, but it's also being fragmented and mutated elsewhere, as people are finding that they're being allowed to talk back.

Not everyone wants to be sold interactive politics as a clearly delineated experience.

But when people are already comfortable with interactive and social media of all kinds, it makes perfect sense to colonise those media with political outposts.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu May 28th, 2009 at 09:42:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The US Congress has set up a system of homepages for congressmen and senators.  If one searches for congressonal e-mail addresses they get references to sites such as  this which will take you to the appropriate homepage.  Homepages feature legislative and administrative accomplishments of the member on behalf of their constituents  and they have a page where one can e-mail the member.  Interestingly, they verify residency in the represented area and only allow e-mail from constituents.  

The only e-mail addresses I can find on the net are to this system.  They appear to have a staffer to handle this system and they pick the most appropriate canned response available, given your message.  They must have other, unpublished e-mail addresses they use with those that really count.  Fax numbers are published for all senators and representatives, so I have used that medium for contacting those who are not my representatives, but naturally have never received a response.

It is a perfect system for the member.  Sort of like "protest areas" at controversial gatherings.  I am surprised if Europe has not implemented such a fine, neutered system.  Makes the representative all up to date at little cost to the member.

If there are better ways to get at these bastards I would like to know.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer at eurotrib.com) on Fri May 29th, 2009 at 12:20:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I always liked the suggestion that you mail Congress a package with a torch, a pitchfork and a bit of paper with the number(s) of the law(s) that caused you to do so.

- Jake

"Terraforming your own planet to make it uninhabitable hardly counts as epic win." - ThatBritGuy

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Fri May 29th, 2009 at 02:13:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Isn't the right as capable, if not more so, of manipulating this kind of populism as the left?
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri May 29th, 2009 at 03:23:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Absolutely.  Probably better, especially when they can wind up the church people, of whom there is no shortage in the South.  Hence our "conservadems."  Bill Mayer may have made Senator Mark Prior look silly in Mayer's movie, but he really did him no harm.  If anything he got him points for "witnessing."

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer at eurotrib.com) on Fri May 29th, 2009 at 01:37:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Probably.

But then again, if you democratic system is sufficiently FUBAR to merit a revolution, and the only people who can actually muster the warm bodies to make a revolution are the fascists, the theocrats and the happy get-together of people who really think that the 20th century was a bad idea that should just go away... then you are screwed.

- Jake

"Terraforming your own planet to make it uninhabitable hardly counts as epic win." - ThatBritGuy

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Fri May 29th, 2009 at 06:51:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That is not a new paradox: the Gracchi experienced it. Often it's the best fascists who make the best revolutions (that was basically Caesar's point, but the plutocrats did not let him drive it home). Later, when the Franks made their own revolution, it was at the point of fascism itself (Soissons' vase, etc.)

Patrice Ayme Patriceayme.com Patriceayme.wordpress.com http://tyranosopher.blogspot.com/
by Patrice Ayme on Fri May 29th, 2009 at 06:57:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
when obams, kerry and kennedies started showing up on dkos, i thought it was 'the breakthrough', having their own blog is great, but to come stick their heads into the tiger pit was even more bold and populist.

unfortunately the dialogue was always poor to nonexistent with the big names, the posts were ok but not epic, and there was no interplay. drive-by, practically.

more minor pols are sometimes more forthcoming.

what a waste...

"Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do." Jim Hightower

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Mon Jun 1st, 2009 at 07:02:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
that the blogosphere tends to rely heavily on the MSM, that bloggers, to a large extent, essentially report on mainline news stories.

The editorial board is vital in the whole process of interpreting the news, and if I had to look for either a conspiracy or a dynamic in "manufacturing consent," this is where I'd begin.

As for the readership missing the news of impending catastrophe, they didn't miss it, but take their cues again, from the news. If you see a story warning of impending trouble in the credit markets next to a story about GE once again beating expectations by a penny, your going to believe that the warning is distant, or that the FT or WSJ is giving space to a purveyor of doom porn. Even if you're equipped to make a judgement (as you'd hope most traders are, though I wasn't) have you time or inclination to dig deeper on your own?

Well yes, if you already have a stake in believing in structural problems in the credit markets or economy, and have lost faith in the invisible hand. Otherwise, you go with the flow, take your profits and continue planning for your week in the Carribean.

"It Can't Be Just About Us"
--Frank Schnittger, ETian Extraordinaire

by papicek (papi_cek_at_hotmail_dot_com) on Tue May 26th, 2009 at 10:33:02 AM EST
   1.  The mainstream press is part of the big business world and has the same interests as it. That means promoting growth, encouraging spending and keeping public sentiment positive. One cannot expect critical reporting in such an environment.

   2. Many people knew there was a bubble (I prefer the musical chairs analogy). In fact just a couple of weeks ago George Soros said that he likes it when markets become "exuberant", that's when he makes the most money. He figures he can ride the wave up and is smart enough to jump off before everyone else. Recently he has found that this is harder to do than previously. Lots of people believe in timing (knowing when the music will stop). Sometimes they are lucky.

   3. Dealing in fraud. There hasn't been as much discussion about outright fraud, but it has been a factor for much of the past two decades. It is only in the extreme cases like Enron or Worldcom that it gets noticed by the general public, but it has become the norm in the financial sector. Much of it is hidden fraud. For example, a trader was asked about Bernie Madoff and said "we all knew he was doing something illegal, but we thought it was trading on insider information." In other words this sort of behavior was acceptable since it was commonplace and hard to track down. Inflated bond ratings, tossing pension fund business to certain firms and other such arrangements are all types of fraud, but are the norm. This is not being reformed.

The unifying theme is that capitalism is based upon gaining an advantage over one's rivals, by fair means or foul. Once the premise that the biggest is the best is accepted then everything else follows. Capitalism and morality don't mix.


Policies not Politics
---- Daily Landscape

by rdf (robert.feinman@gmail.com) on Tue May 26th, 2009 at 01:09:16 PM EST
Someone with a more suspicious mind than mine might wonder if there isn't something Rovian about concentrating on relatively minor fraud, such as Commons Expenses, while ignoring the much bigger frauds which inflated the bubble.

MPs won't be too keen on asking hard questions after this.

Meanwhile you have to admit, it takes a certain kind of chutzpah to intimidate an entire government.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue May 26th, 2009 at 01:22:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
well you never know the next election might result in an intake of honest politicians.....

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue May 26th, 2009 at 01:41:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Let's hope so.

But I'm not holding my breath.

- Jake

"Terraforming your own planet to make it uninhabitable hardly counts as epic win." - ThatBritGuy

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue May 26th, 2009 at 02:48:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
... a bit of humor in the middle of such a discussion is good for breaking the tension.


Utsukushikereba sore de ii
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Tue May 26th, 2009 at 03:00:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
... definition, "An honest politician is one who stays bought once you buy him. A dishonest politician can only be rented."


Utsukushikereba sore de ii
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Tue May 26th, 2009 at 03:01:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
ceebs:
well you never know the next election might result in an intake of honest politicians.....

More likely an intake of cowed politicians who will think twice before taking on the Telegraph or the financial establishment.

Just as the political class was gearing itself up to properly regulate and control the financial/business class its own credibility and public standing is mysteriously undermined.

Now why would that be?

notes from no w here

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Wed May 27th, 2009 at 05:04:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You're far too cynical.

No - wait - actually, you're not.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Wed May 27th, 2009 at 06:27:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Dizzy Thinks: +++ Telegraph Group takes down Dorries blog +++
Some interesting developments have happened overnight. Nadine Dorries has seen the blog part of her website instantly taken down after she made allegations against the owners of the Telegraph Group, Sir David Barclay and Sir Frederick Barclay.

Lawyers acting for the Barclay brothers, Withers, instructed the takedown carried out by Acidity via mail to Coreix last night, citing the Acceptable User Policy. The takedown will be bolstered by the Godfrey vs Demon precendent, where an order can be made and it will be done instantly.

<snip>

Update II: Interesting to note that the day after Nadine makes allegations that the Telegraph has a hidden proprietor driven agenda to drive votes to UKIP (I repeat this is an allegation not a proven truth), her blog gets taken down by lawyers and then this morning's Telegraph carries not only more expenses scandals but a gushing piece about UKIP.



If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed May 27th, 2009 at 01:00:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hopefully she has backups. At the very least, one would hope that she could get access to her own data, even if she cannot broadcast it.

After that, as the British Society of Homeopaths learned to their discomfort, it's two or three e-mails away from being up on half a dozen foreign sites.

- Jake

"Terraforming your own planet to make it uninhabitable hardly counts as epic win." - ThatBritGuy

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Wed May 27th, 2009 at 06:12:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well looking at the comments there, a variety of people saved it out of googles cache, if its not still available there it will be somewhere soon.

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed May 27th, 2009 at 08:12:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's something where somebody could really do the world a favour: Setting up a caching function like the Google cache, on servers in three or four different jurisdictions.

Because the first thing I'd do if I were going to tighten the ability of Bad People to retroactively censor the internet would be to sic Stasi 2.0 on Google to make them stop showing their cache to the general public. And I don't trust Google not to fold - they have too big commercial interests at stake, and their policy on legal threats, like bogus copywrong claims from IFPI, has been "better safe than sorry."

- Jake

"Terraforming your own planet to make it uninhabitable hardly counts as epic win." - ThatBritGuy

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Thu May 28th, 2009 at 03:23:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
well theres always the internet archive and other search engines, but not all enable cache access, and most are still US based, so are capable of having the same government put pressure on them.

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Thu May 28th, 2009 at 09:00:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
ThatBritGuy:
Someone with a more suspicious mind than mine might wonder if there isn't something Rovian about concentrating on relatively minor fraud, such as Commons Expenses, while ignoring the much bigger frauds which inflated the bubble.

bingo! i've smelt this since it started.

ow, ow, ow, look at the sore toe!

(said the headless man...)

"Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do." Jim Hightower

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Tue May 26th, 2009 at 07:28:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
while not quantifying how much suspicion one mind can encapsulate (without exploding), this reeks of damage limitation.

and if this is the limitation, it boggles the mind how much damage there is that we're being kept in the dark and fed horseshit about.

consumer confidence cannot be allowed to fail...

(got to let us down as gently as possible, given the circumstances)

the sheer pettiness of some of the sums was a clue too, by the law of inverse spin, that means they don't dare begin to really quantify the tsunami coming.

"Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do." Jim Hightower

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Mon Jun 1st, 2009 at 07:10:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This spring we have seen in Sweden: One scandal about huge bonuses in banks (while crying out for the state to save them), followed by a scandal about bonuses state-owned companies as the current government decided last summer that bonuses were great, evolving to a scandal about unioun leaders - despite seats on company boards - not doing enough to stop bonuses. Last phase lasted longest.

And then these last weeks there were revelations about union waste and spending just days before the company leaders published a statement about the need to lower salaries. Except for their own of course.

I think it is very deliberate timing.

Of course, if the union leaders in question had not used those board seats to line their pockets or not had been wasting their members on themselves they would have been in a stronger position. Who knew that luxury had a downside?

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Tue Jun 2nd, 2009 at 10:51:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
editors and headline writers consistently focusing on other facts to put forward (either for corporate reasons;

either for corporate reasons or what?

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue May 26th, 2009 at 01:44:53 PM EST
«nt» signifie «non texte»

Utsukushikereba sore de ii
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Tue May 26th, 2009 at 03:02:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thinking creatively is so hard, it hurts. That is why most people prefer parroting. If I send a creative idea as a New York Times comment, it will generally be censored. If it is common, it will be published.

Patrice Ayme Patriceayme.com Patriceayme.wordpress.com http://tyranosopher.blogspot.com/
by Patrice Ayme on Wed May 27th, 2009 at 02:58:43 AM EST
The business press will always be around to print the truth as businessmen have to get an accurate and non-hysterical picture of the world from somewhere. I only comment here because no one else has noted how fortuitous this is.

Were this not so solidly locked in place my feelings about the decline and death of newspapers and investigative journalism would be far more negative. The Meat Of Truth is there for the bloggers to simply pick up, digest, and rewrite for a popular audience, as you, Jerome, have been doing, among plenty of others.

From there, as TBG points out, it's a matter of turning over a generation. We'll have to wait twenty years before a majority of citizens take their peers more seriously than anointed Serious People. To go a step further we probably need another x generations to ween ourselves off god-worship (corporeal or otherwise) which has been part of our cultures for multiple millenia.

This isn't the best time for an uninformed populace, of course, but we weren't going to wean ourselves off market capitalism or fossil fuels without severely burning ourselves first. Don't the geneticists claim we were once down to about 2000 human females? That's Cormack McCarthy's The Road bad. Things could be so much worse.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Thu May 28th, 2009 at 10:20:19 AM EST
a full six months to a year ahead of the memes propagated by lamestream media!

Don't forget to get your Unicorn flu shots this fall!

by Lasthorseman on Sun May 31st, 2009 at 10:42:47 PM EST


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