EU Citizen Voting Rights (UPDATE)

by afew
Mon Jun 15th, 2009 at 04:35:08 AM EST

 EUROPEAN ELECTIONS 

I commented on Sunday 7 June that I had been prevented from voting in the European parliamentary election by an administrative barrier: in France, a separate register of non-French EU citizens is kept at the town hall for the municipal elections, distinct from the roll for the European elections. I was registered to vote for the municipal elections, but (failure on the part of the town hall clerk to inform me and process my application correctly), I was not on the European register.

Since the Maastricht Treaty founded the notion of EU citizenship and gave the right to vote in municipal and European elections, I have voted in both in France. My previous commune of residence registered me for both without further difficulty. That may be because the separation of the two registers had not yet been decreed, or that the town hall simply considered that obviously I intended to vote in both types of election, and proceeded to put me down on each register. The result was that I wasn't aware a distinction existed between the two registers, and so was very surprised (euphemism) to learn, on Sunday, that I couldn't vote.

I've since learned that another EU citizen (also British) had come up against the same barrier earlier that morning in the same polling station, and that he and his French wife were so mad about it they spent Sunday at the prefecture complaining, saw the magistrate who sits on election days, and finally, late in the afternoon, got a decision that he (the EU citizen) was in fact registered and could vote, which he did just before the polls closed. (I didn't have Sunday free for that, even if the mayor, with whom I had a stand-up argument in the polling station, had informed me of my right to seek redress before the court!)

Note: Why I previously bumped this and am now front-paging it: I would like to get as much information on electoral regulations and conditions as possible. To be clear: I think this is another case where EU communication is appalling, and one where it's quite possible that individual states have applied different rules with disqualification of voters by administrative snafu as a result. It's the opposite of a policy supposed to involve citizens in EU life. Would it be too much to imagine an ET campaign to get this situation changed? Next time round, EU-wide elections on the same day with the same clear rules for all voters?

Note 2: If you're not an EU citizen residing in another EU country than your own, don't feel left out! Any information about how voting for EU residents in your country is organized, will be gratefully received!


What I'm now interested in is finding out how many EU citizen's voting rights are denied, in how many member states, by this dual-register administrative complication (or other forms of administrative complication). If you are an EU citizen living (or having lived) in another member state than your own, what can you tell us about the concrete conditions of application of your voting rights? Take the poll, then tell us in comments which country and what problems or absence of problems.

Ultimately, I'd like to challenge this dual-register thing on the grounds that (especially in the absence of clear information) it is discriminatory against EU citizens who are not of the nationality of their country of residence. The French laws that found the right (in application of EU directives) state the principle that non-French EU citizens have the right to vote dans les mêmes conditions que les citoyens français (in the same conditions as French citizens). French citizens are not required to register separately for municipal and European elections. The principle of equality of treatment is therefore not respected. (The laws do not prescribe the establishment of separate registers; I suspect this separation is the result of an administrative decision communicated by circular from the Interior Ministry, though I have no evidence of that for the moment).

Interior Ministry page on this subject, and law founding the right to vote in the European elections and same with regard to municipal elections.

UPDATE: After some Googling I found this very interesting parliamentary question from the French Senate in 2004, ie after the last European elections:

Question écrite Nº 12904 du 01/07/2004 page 1436 avec réponse posée par POIRIER (Jean-Marie) du groupe UMP . M. Jean-Marie Poirier souhaite appeler l'attention de M. le ministre de l'intérieur, de la sécurité intérieure et des libertés locales sur l'existence de certaines incohérences s'agissant des modalités du vote des ressortissants européens aux élections municipales et européennes. Le droit de vote des citoyens européens leur a été ouvert par le traité de Maastricht en son article 8 B, la directive n° 94/80/CE du 19 décembre 1994, et, enfin, la loi organique n° 98-404 du 25 mai 1998. Les citoyens de l'Union européenne résidant dans un Etat membre dont ils ne sont pas ressortissants peuvent exercer dans cet Etat leur droit de vote aux élections européennes et municipales. En France, les dispositions régissant le droit de vote des ressortissants européens apparaissent aux articles 227-1 à 227-5 du code électoral. Pour voter, les ressortissants européens doivent s'inscrire sur des listes complémentaires. Bien que les dispositions législatives ne mentionnent pas le caractère alternatif de l'inscription, la pratique distingue la liste complémentaire pour les élections municipales et la liste complémentaire pour les élections européennes puisque l'inscription sur l'une n'entraîne pas automatiquement inscription sur l'autre. Cette règle, mal connue des intéressés, a engendré de nombreuses frustrations lors des récentes élections européennes. En effet, les ressortissants européens inscrits sur les listes complémentaires pour les élections municipales et désireux de prendre part au vote pour les élections européennes se sont présentés vainement à leur bureau de vote puisque ne s'étant pas inscrits sur les listes complémentaires pour les élections européennes. Dans la commune de Sucy-en-Brie, alors que 107 électeurs européens sont inscrits sur les listes complémentaires pour les élections municipales, seuls 59 le sont pour les élections européennes. Alors que d'aucuns déplorent le taux d'abstention lors des élections européennes, il est difficilement concevable de multiplier les procédures d'inscription sur les listes électorales pour les ressortissants européens. Ce formalisme est d'autant plus étonnant que de nombreuses mesures de simplification sont intervenues pour les Français, notamment l'inscription d'office des jeunes de dix-huit ans sur les listes électorales ou la simplification des modalités d'établissement des procurations de vote. Il lui demande en conséquence quelles mesures le Gouvernement compte prendre afin de simplifier les modalités d'inscription sur les listes électorales pour les ressortissants européens.Written Question No. 12904 of 01/07/2004 page 1436 with reply, tabled by POIRIER (Jean-Marie) of the UMP.
M. Jean-Marie Poirier wishes to draw the attention of the Minister of the Interior, of Internal Security and Local Freedoms, to the existence of certain inconsistencies regarding the conditions under which European citizens vote in municipal elections and European elections. Voting rights of European citizens were instituted by the Maastricht Treaty in Article 8 B, the Directive No. 94/80/EC of 19 December 1994 and, finally, the Organic Law n ° 98-404 of 25 May 1998. European Union citizens residing in a Member State of which they are not nationals can exercise in that State their right to vote in municipal and European elections. In France, the provisions governing the voting rights of European citizens appear in Articles 227-1 to 227-5 of the electoral code. To vote, EU citizens must register on complementary lists. Although the laws do not mention the alternative registration, in practice a distinction has been made between a list for municipal elections and another list for the European elections, since the inscription on one does not automatically entail inscription on the other. This rule, little known to those concerned, led to frustration in a number of cases during the recent European elections [2004]. EU nationals registered on the list for municipal elections and wishing to vote in the European elections turned up in vain at their polling stations because they hadn't registered on the list for European elections. In the commune of Sucy-en-Brie, while 107 Europeans are registered on the list for municipal elections, only 59 are for the European elections. While some lament the low turnout in European elections, it is unconceivable to increase the number of voter registration procedures for EU nationals. This formalism is particularly surprising in that a number of simplification measures have been taken for French nationals, particularly the automatic registration of eighteen-year-olds on the electoral roll, or the simplification of procedures for proxy voting . He accordingly asks the minister what measures the Government intends to take in order to simplify the procedures for voter registration for EU nationals.
Ministère de réponse: Intérieur - Publiée dans le JO Senat du 30/09/2004 page 2230. A la suite de la loi n° 94-104 du 5 février 1994 relative à l'exercice par les citoyens de l'Union européenne résidant en France du droit de vote et d'éligibilité aux élections au Parlement européen, la loi organique n° 98-404 du 25 mai 1998 accorde aux citoyens de l'Union européenne résidant en France le droit de vote et d'éligibilité aux élections municipales. Ces lois subordonnent cette participation à l'inscription des intéressés sur une liste électorale complémentaire distincte pour chacune de ces élections. Ce formalisme trouve son fondement dans les textes mêmes qui régissent le droit de participer aux scrutins évoqués ci-dessus. Il se justifie par le fait que les régimes mis en place pour permettre le vote des ressortissants communautaires diffèrent d'un mode d'élection à l'autre. La loi laisse en effet le choix au ressortissant de l'Union qui réside en France de participer à l'élection des représentants de son pays d'origine ou de son pays de résidence au Parlement européen mais il lui est interdit d'être électeur dans deux pays à la fois. La loi permet en revanche à un ressortissant communautaire de participer à une élection municipale en France, et également de participer à une élection municipale dans un autre Etat de l'Union. Le traité signé à Maastricht le 7 février 1992, comme les directives n° 93/109/CE (élections au Parlement européen) et n° 94/80/CE (élections municipales), respectivement du 6 décembre 1993 et du 19 décembre 1994, ont entendu laisser aux citoyens de l'Union le libre choix de participer ou non à la vie politique de leur Etat de résidence. Des instructions sont données chaque année aux communes, chargées de la révision et de la tenue des listes électorales, afin qu'elles appellent l'attention des résidents communautaires sur le choix qui s'offre à eux et qui ne peut s'exercer que dans le cadre de l'élaboration d'une liste électorale complémentaire distincte pour chacune de ces électionsResponding ministry: Interior - Published in the Senate Official Journal of 30/09/2004, page 2230.
Following Law No. 94-104 of 5 February 1994 on the exercise by EU citizens residing in France of the right to vote and stand for election to the European Parliament, the Organic Law No. 98-404 of 25 May 1998 grants European Union citizens residing in France the right to vote in municipal elections. These laws make this participation subject to inscription on a separate electoral roll for each election. This formalism is based on the very texts governing the right to participate in the elections mentioned above. It is justified by the fact that the systems applied to allow voting by community citizens differ from one type of election to another. The law, in fact, leaves the EU citizen residing in France the choice of participating in the election for the EP representatives of her/is country of origin or country of residence, but it is prohibited to vote in two countries at once. On the other hand, the law allows a citizen to participate in a municipal election in France, and also to participate in a municipal election in another State of the Union. The treaty signed in Maastricht on 7 February 1992 as well as the Directive No 93/109/EC (elections to European Parliament) and No 94/80/EC (municipal elections), respectively, 6 December 1993 and 19 December 1994, intended to allow EU citizens the choice whether to participate, or not, in the political life of their country of residence. Instructions are given each year to municipalities, responsible for reviewing and maintaining the electoral rolls, in order that they should call the attention of EU residents on the choice they may make, and which cannot be exercised in any other way than by the constitution of a separate electoral roll for each of these elections.

So the ministerial response is that it's the founding laws that dictate the separation of the lists. False. These laws announce that EU citizens have the right to vote in municipal and European elections "in the same conditions as French nationals". French nationals, however, are not obliged to register separately for different types of election. And, in the specific procedures enacted, the laws do not prescribe separate lists for each type of election (trust me, I'll spare you the translation).

Evidently the problem is not new and has caused "frustration" in the past (and does so in other member states too, as we see below). But who cares? Apparently not our governments and not the EU.

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Poll
I'm an EU citizen living or having lived in another member state than my own, and:
. I am aware of the rules, and there is a dual register 0%
. I am aware of the rules, and there is not a dual register 33%
. I am/was not aware of the rules, and have run foul of the dual register or other problems 33%
. I am/was not aware of the rules, and have had no problem voting 16%
. I don't vote 0%
. I don't know what this is all about 16%

Votes: 6
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gk added to my comment on Sunday:

gk:

It's the same in Italy, except that the town clerk did inform me that I had to fill in both forms.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Jun 11th, 2009 at 05:43:58 AM EST
Third letter down

Madam, - We are all non-Irish EU citizens and have been residing in Dublin for between 10 and 27 years. On Friday, we all turned up at our respective polling stations to be told that we were only allowed to vote in the local elections. All the polling clerks and the supervisors could tell us was that, on the electoral register, we only had an L (for Local) against our name. As we have all voted in Dublin in previous European elections, we were astonished. Subsequent inquiries revealed that non-Irish EU citizens resident in Ireland are now required to sign a declaration that they will not be voting simultaneously in their home country, so as to avoid double voting.

We understand the need for such controls, but the declaration form clearly states that the regulation does not apply to people who voted here in previous European elections. Yet, the electoral register staff don't seem to be aware of this.

Is this a symptom of Ireland having mixed feelings towards Europe and fellow Europeans, or just incompetence? Whatever the explanation, the fact remains that we have all been denied our democratic right to vote. - Yours, etc,

CLAIRE LAUDET,
Gartan Avenue, Dublin 9,
FRÉDÉRIQUE RANTZ,
Glenarm Avenue, Dublin 9,
KARINE CHAUVOT-ARNOLD,
Drumcondra Park, Dublin 3,
JULIETTE PÉCHENART,
Bellevue Park Avenue,
Booterstown, Co Dublin,
AGNÈS MAILLOT,
Raphoe Road,
Crumlin, Dublin 12,
JEAN-PHILIPPE IMBERT,
Crumlin Road, Dublin 12.


by det on Thu Jun 11th, 2009 at 07:08:54 AM EST
Interesting, because the two forms you have to fill in for France (can be downloaded from the Interior Ministry page linked above), only differ in adding (to the European one) a declaration that you are not registered to vote in another member state for the European elections.

Why that form is not sufficient for both European and municipal elections beats me.

But apparently other long-term residents came up against a similar problem in Ireland as I did here. Thanks for the tip-off, det.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Jun 11th, 2009 at 07:24:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
For municipal elections, neither Spain nor the UK asked me whether I was registered to vote in another member state.

The brainless should not be in banking. — Willem Buiter
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jun 11th, 2009 at 07:30:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Apparently you can vote twice in municipals... (wtf?) At least, the declaration you are not registered to vote elsewhere only applies to the European.

But this does not change the fact that one form (and one register) would be sufficient for the two elections.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Jun 11th, 2009 at 07:32:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, I have voted twice in municipal elections. But in Spain you have to file a special request if you're registered as voting from abroad and want to vote in the municipal elections in the last Spanish municipality where you were registered.

The brainless should not be in banking. — Willem Buiter
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jun 11th, 2009 at 07:36:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
a declaration that you are not registered to vote in another member state for the European elections.

So Hungarian legislation is not the only one assuming similar election rules in other countries.

(In this case: not all countries require registration from citizens, some maintain you on voter lists by default. So, if I had gained residence in France, I could fill out this form, vote in France; then fla to Budapest in the certain knowledge that French authorities have not informed their Hungarian counterparts and thus I am still on the voter rolls there too, and vote a second time...)

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Thu Jun 11th, 2009 at 08:04:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, if you are prepared to lie on an official declaration form...
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Jun 11th, 2009 at 09:04:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
? No lie included.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Thu Jun 11th, 2009 at 11:32:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, since the French form makes you sign a declaration that you are not registered for the EP elections in another MS.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Jun 11th, 2009 at 11:35:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There are two possibilities.

A) The Hungarian citizen X in France, like myself, sees a difference between "being registered" and "being listed" -- and signs the declaration in good faith that s/he is indeed not registered anywhere but in France.

B) Assuming that being registered and listed means the same, the Hungarian citizen X faces an impossible hurdle: to delete him/her from their lists, the Hungarian authorities wait for a confirmation from their French colleagues that X signed a declaration about voting there; while the declaration French authorities want him to sign is that he was already removed from the lists in Hungary...

Or, C), the rules are improperly defined in both of our sources.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Thu Jun 11th, 2009 at 12:39:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, this is becoming a bit of a PN, but I don't distinguish, in what I've written, between "register", "list", "roll". It's a list of persons entitled to vote.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Jun 12th, 2009 at 12:24:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In that case, B applies.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Fri Jun 12th, 2009 at 01:10:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think it's an EU rule for the European elections. The same rule doesn't appear to exist for municipal.

This is still not a reason for separate registration on separate registers.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Jun 11th, 2009 at 09:16:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Spain also doesn't require voter registration, but draws an electoral census from the list of people registered as residents with each municipality.  Voter rolls are published for a short period ahead of each election for people to check and submit amendments if necessary.

The brainless should not be in banking. — Willem Buiter
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jun 11th, 2009 at 12:47:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It appears that even complying with the letter of the law was not sufficient
Madam, - I sympathise with the six non-Irish EU citizens who were denied a vote in the European election (June 10th). Like your correspondents I too am an EU citizen living here for many years. However, I was aware of the new regulation which requires you to submit a declaration that you will not be voting simultaneously in your home country. I had the necessary forms completed and stamped in my local Garda station and sent to the Register of Electors well before the required date.

My treatment at the polling centre was very similar to that of my fellow EU citizens: profuse apologies from the staff but my name was followed by an L for "local only" on their list and I was consequently restricted to a vote in the local elections.

Although furious at the time, I assumed it was isolated incident. My paranoia does not extend so far as to suspect a systematic disenfranchisement campaign; however, it would be comforting to know if there is an EU citizen out there, not from the southern part of this island, who was actually granted the vote to which they are entitled. - Yours, etc,

by det on Fri Jun 12th, 2009 at 04:56:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
As far as I can tell, in the UK there is a single register of voters kept by the local council, but I did get a communication asking me about whether I was going to vote in the UK or in Spain. As I was in the middle of moving from the UK back to Spain I ignored it. I ended up voting in Spain, and I don't know whether I would have been able to vote in the UK in the end or would have encountered similar difficulties..

The brainless should not be in banking. — Willem Buiter
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jun 11th, 2009 at 07:29:16 AM EST
I checked that in Hungary, citizens of other EU countries must fill out a declaration that they intend to vote in Hungary, separetely for every single EP or local vote. The law also says that Hungary informs the home countries of these expats about this declaration "so that they can be removed from the voter lists there". Further, the law assumes that Hungarian citizens intending to vote in other countries (1) fill out similar forms there, and (2) those other countries inform Hungarian authorities about those declarations; so that they can be removed from voter lists here.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Thu Jun 11th, 2009 at 07:31:40 AM EST
The information passed back seems fair enough, it's part of normal procedure within a country to keep the registers updated, so why not between member states?

But registering each and every time, wow. That doesn't respect the principle of equal treatment with member state nationals, not at all. (Or do Hungarians have to register each time for each election?)

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Jun 11th, 2009 at 07:40:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In the UK I have to confirm annually by return of the statement or online that I am still at the same address and eligible to vote. Is this similar elsewhere or do you only register again if you move?

Ad astra per aspera
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Thu Jun 11th, 2009 at 07:59:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In France, they resend you your carte d'électeur every other year or so. If you don't move, it's automatic; it you do move, you would not get the new carte and could not vote in the same place, unless you specifically ask for a new carte

But it's the same carte for all elections.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Thu Jun 11th, 2009 at 08:08:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ah that sounds similar except the carte is sent to each household (ie not to each individual) listing who is currently registered and asking if there are amendments.  So if I moved but didn't declare that, I would have the opportunity to respond to the carte with my amendment at my new address.

Ad astra per aspera
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Thu Jun 11th, 2009 at 08:28:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The voter registers are updated regularly by a special commission. They will strike off anyone for whom, for example, they have received notice from another electoral district (commune) that that person has registered to vote there. The commission also validates applications for registration.

The two French laws founding the right to vote for EU citizens specify that the the "complementary list" (ie non-French EU citizens) is to be updated under the same conditions as the general French list.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Jun 11th, 2009 at 09:23:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As per above, Hungarian citizens (unless they want to vote elsewhere than their primary residence) don't have to register at all: the state/local authorities maintain data on people's residence, and that is used to assemble voter lists, without any active imput from citizens. So the declaration on not voting elsewhere is simply not applicable to citizens.

There is unequal treatment in the process, however: I forgot to point out that foreign residents do not get automatically on the voter lists, they have to present their residence permit along with the declaration to be put on it.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Thu Jun 11th, 2009 at 08:11:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
without any active imput from citizens.

A minor correction, because the above would make appear that you can't do anything about database errors and learn it only on vote day. Before the elections, everyone gets mailed a personal election announcement (if the election in question involves a vote on party lists, a party recommendation form is included). So if you don't get one or you'll move soon, you can have active input by requesting a correction.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Thu Jun 11th, 2009 at 08:15:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Spain's system is substantially the same as Hungary's.

The brainless should not be in banking. — Willem Buiter
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jun 11th, 2009 at 12:50:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
A further clarification: even though they aren't on voter lists automatically, the election office collects the data of foreign residents, too, who are also mailed personally at the same time by the election office.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Thu Jun 11th, 2009 at 01:35:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The UK requires people to re-register every year. Usually in October local councils will send a form to every home with a voter roll for the address, which must be returned including any changes from the previous year.

The brainless should not be in banking. — Willem Buiter
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jun 11th, 2009 at 10:18:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, as In Wales describes. But it's the authorities that push. In France you have to go in and register and before 31/12 if you want to vote in an election the following year. OTOH, you don't have to renew annually.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Jun 11th, 2009 at 11:34:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What happens if a snap election is called? Can voters caught wrong-footed appeal to be included in the voter rolls?

The brainless should not be in banking. — Willem Buiter
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jun 11th, 2009 at 12:49:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Not as far as I know - but there are elections in a year more often than not, and snap elections are quite rare.

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Thu Jun 11th, 2009 at 02:47:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So if you move to another city, as I did last summer, you have to re-register on the rolls at your new city of residence, and you'll be registered, for the following year on.

Should a snap election be caught in the fall (extremely rare; we French tend to do that in the spring; must be something in the water), I'd still be able to vote, but in my former place of residence.

Europeans think a hundred miles is a long way. Americans think a hundred years is a long time.

by Bernard on Thu Jun 11th, 2009 at 04:52:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Have you lived in another EU member state, Bernard?
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Jun 11th, 2009 at 04:54:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Only in Germany, but this was in the 70s and I was still a kid, so no voting for me.

Europeans think a hundred miles is a long way. Americans think a hundred years is a long time.
by Bernard on Sun Jun 14th, 2009 at 05:06:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hm. It gets complicated. Until now, I looked at the letter of law. Now I find this four-language announcement, which claims that foreign citizens will stay on voter lists for the future, without the need of any new application -- again assuming that foreign rules are the same, i.e. that there will be a permanent removal from voter lists by the informed foreign colleagues. But, no word about local elections in this one...

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Thu Jun 11th, 2009 at 08:29:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
i had a similar problem in Paris. Even though i had registered with the appropriate forms i had somehow fallen into the french admin black hole of "missing papers". After complaining at the town hall and then seeing the magistrate I could finally vote.

Luckily i had the time and i live 5 mins from everywhere i had to visit, plus i was extremely motivated to vote after i was initially told (wrongly) that my application to vote had been rejected.

by darragh on Fri Jun 12th, 2009 at 11:09:14 AM EST
Thanks for the info. There are at least two cases in France, then, where we know the magistrate validated the vote in spite of non-registration on the appropriate list.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Jun 12th, 2009 at 12:21:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This discussion is absolutely fascinating.  Where else but ET would it be possible for this kind of exploration to take place?  

It helps me, from the US, to understand the EU a little better--more than I ever would by simply reading official documents and news reports.

Seems like the information unravelled and exposed here could be the basis of a very interesting and useful analytical piece.  Is there a Euro-focused journalistic enterprise that would take on such a project?

One serious function of the "blogs," the independent blogs especially, has been to feed stories to the newspapers, by raising important questions and revealing significant problems and demonstrating public interest and concern, thus "inspiring" the professionals to focus on a particular topic.

I would expect someone will pick this up and run with it . . .

(If this was dkos, and it was a US issue, I would expect to be reading long articles about it in the NYTimes within the week)

by jjellin on Mon Jun 15th, 2009 at 08:14:25 AM EST
Thanks, jjellin. I would hope we can pick it up and run with it ourselves (! :)), if we get enough feedback here. As for an MSM relay, it wouldn't be entirely paranoid, I think, to fear that it would be picked up by a campaigning Euroskeptic outlet like the Daily Telegraph, which would use it as yet another example of how awful the EU is.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Jun 15th, 2009 at 09:03:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ah, okay.  Shows how little understanding I have of the politics here, but that is one of the reasons I appreciate ET--I learn.  So, there is more of an anti-EU press out there, already, perhaps rooted in the various established national/local cultures, but there is not much countering "voice," whether pro-EU in a political sense, or even  articulating/celebrating EU identity?

Is it impolite to ask what is European identity?  Perhaps a safer question in the context of this diary is what right does any European living outside their country of birth  have to use the local resources of their place of residence to vote in a EU elections?  (meant to be rhetorical, and hopefully not offensive)

by jjellin on Mon Jun 15th, 2009 at 10:22:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There's a strong anti-EU (PC term: Eurosceptic or -skeptic) press in the UK in particular. In general, there's not much that's strongly pro-EU anywhere. Why is this? That's a whole other-diary topic :), though we do discuss it here quite a bit - it often crops up in the Salon when looking at news sources, for example.

A European identity is also a huge subject, and one I don't think we have yet fully addressed satisfactorily. A European political and civic identity, I'd say, probably doesn't yet exist, or barely. Which is the main reason that pushes me to write this diary.

Here's one I wrote on EU citizenship: Life, Love, Death and the EU.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Jun 15th, 2009 at 11:02:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
One of the big factors is the essential invisibility of the European political process on the evening news. The average nights news broadcast has 15 minutes of National politics, The European parliament is lucky to have that much coverage in a year in the UK.

Till the media starts taking the European institutions seriously, the population aren't going to either. Ludicrous Eurosceptic stories will find easy traction amidst the lack of any real reporting.

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Jun 15th, 2009 at 11:08:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Same in France: I often mentioned that for French pols, the European Parliament in Strasbourg (a French city!) is akin to political exile in Siberia.

Several cabinet members who were elected a week ago have already demurred and will stay in Paris (and in the French government) instead.

Europeans think a hundred miles is a long way. Americans think a hundred years is a long time.

by Bernard on Mon Jun 15th, 2009 at 04:35:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
CITIZENS' EUROPE
ROLE OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT

A.  Rights relating to municipal elections

In its resolutions on the draft directive on rights relating to municipal elections, Parliament endeavoured to keep to a minimum the permitted exceptions to the rule of equal treatment with nationals regarding the right to vote and to stand as a candidate

B.  Elections to the European Parliament

In several resolutions, Parliament had expressed its regret that it only had the right to be consulted, and had no power of codecision, concerning the legal acts to be adopted pursuant to Article 19(2) of the EC Treaty. This situation has not changed. However, the Lisbon Treaty would provide for the possibility to adopt a "uniform procedure in all Member States or a procedure in accordance with principles common to all Member States", after having been approved by the Member States in accordance with their respective constitutional requirements (Article 223 TFEU, as amended).

Moreover, Parliament has long called for a uniform system for elections to the European Parliament, to take the place of the national electoral laws for such elections (*1.3.4.).

This (slightly cryptic) pronouncement from the European Parliament would seem to imply that

  • the principle of equal treatment is not entirely respected by member states;

  • procedure is not uniform in all member states.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Jun 15th, 2009 at 08:58:20 AM EST
We discussed the rules on the EP elections in askod's What are the meta rules of the EP elections?. The most detailed information can be found on this page.

What would be needed in the future is:

  • a single definition of residence (e.g. for longer than 3 months)
  • a single registration deadline for all countries and both options, voting in the country of residence and in the mother country (say, 1 month before the elections, that should be managable for all states)
  • a requirement for the local government to provide the relevant information (say, 1 month before the registration deadline)

As the information provided by the local administration could be standardised EU-wide, it should be possible to provide it in both the local language and the monther language.

Having elections on a single day would also be good, but does not address the same issue.

In terms of pressure, the European Parliament should be be very sensitive about the voting experience of expat Europeans (model European citizens, if anything). But their power is currently limited, as you noted. It should still be possible to start doing something together with the upcoming Swedish Presidency of the Council.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Tue Jun 16th, 2009 at 09:37:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sweden has different registries for local and european elections.

In local elections anyone who is has Swedish citizenship or EU citizenship and is living in Sweden or has lived in Sweden for more then 3 years can vote, and the voting list is created from the population registry that also keeps track of where you pay your local taxes and such.

In the EP elections it appears (I am basing this on accounts from various EU citizens in Sweden) that a form was sent to EU citizens in Sweden that was in the population registry. It also appears that the default option was "want to vote in Sweden" which kicked in even if you did not answer. Furthermore it appears that the nordic countries collaborated by checking that no-one was on two lists, probably an extension of a long-standing cooperation on population registries.

In conclusion, two registries, but not much hassle.

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Mon Jun 15th, 2009 at 10:05:20 AM EST
Thanks, askod.

One thing that now becomes clear: EU countries may be divided (re electoral rolls) into "automatic" and "declarative" categories. One group (that includes Sweden) derives its electoral lists automatically from other sources (taxation rolls, or residency rolls), the other, from individual inscription by voters (example, France).

Those who reside in an "automatic" country are much more likely to receive useful information (as with the forms sent out in Sweden), than those in "declarative" countries (in France, my impression is that if you don't go to the town hall and pester them, you won't be told anything).

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Jun 15th, 2009 at 10:21:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I must note here that I first heard about "voter registration" (what you call "declarative") during the campaign for the 1996 or 2000 US elections -- and I was appalled, and thought this is another element of the inferior and unfair US system. I learnt only later that some European countries have this system, too.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Mon Jun 15th, 2009 at 10:32:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A 2006 study by the French Senate lists Germany, the UK, Italy, Spain, Portugal, the Netherlands, Denmark, and Belgium as generating electoral rolls automatically from other sources. (They don't seem to have included Sweden.)
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Jun 15th, 2009 at 11:13:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Actually, they examine all of those countries, but find differences. First registration and revision (e.g. when moving) is not automatic in Portugal and the UK. However, in Portugal, registration is obligatory.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Mon Jun 15th, 2009 at 12:42:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In Belgium too, because there is an obligatory list of residents, and it's obligatory to vote.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Jun 15th, 2009 at 02:45:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Voter registration in the US, of course, includes an option on which party you register as a voter for.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Jun 15th, 2009 at 11:16:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thats always struck me as somewhat bizzare, almost denying the invisibility of choice in the vote.

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Jun 15th, 2009 at 11:21:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There is "Independent".

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Mon Jun 15th, 2009 at 12:42:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
it would still seem to me, a way of supressing minirity viewpoints.

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Jun 15th, 2009 at 01:09:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yep. It also enables a wider sense of party allegiance to apply in primaries (well, where primaries are still constrained even so). Which I don't think is a good thing -- the candidates of a party should be selected by those who involve themselves with politics deep enough, and show colours by becoming card-carrying members; otherwise, any programme can be watered up indefinitely and other parties may influence results on purpose, IMO.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Mon Jun 15th, 2009 at 01:58:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
OTOH, there are those who would argue that lacking primaries makes politics less accessible to the citizens at large. Ultimately, though, I think primaries give a largely false sense of participation - the party machinery can manage the outcome to a very large extent.

- Jake

"Terraforming your own planet to make it uninhabitable hardly counts as epic win." - ThatBritGuy

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Jun 21st, 2009 at 05:04:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Since we're discussing voting rights, what about a related issue, which elections EU citizens can participate in?  When I lived in Munich, I could vote for the city council, but not for the mayor, as it was decided that this was a position of national importance (for the nation of Freistaat Bayern maybe - but for Germany?). Are there similar cases elsewhere, or is this just Bavaria.
by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Mon Jun 15th, 2009 at 03:59:19 PM EST
In France you (EU citizen) cannot be eligible for mayor or one of the assistant mayor positions.

But municipal voting is for lists of which the number one is the candidate for mayor, and you can vote for the list you wish. Afterwards, the new council elects the mayor.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Jun 15th, 2009 at 04:07:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I will quote myself on Sweden:

In local elections anyone who is has Swedish citizenship or EU citizenship and is living in Sweden or has lived in Sweden for more then 3 years can vote, and the voting list is created from the population registry that also keeps track of where you pay your local taxes and such.

This holds for elections to local and regional assemblies (there are no mayors in Sweden). The only election that only swedish citizens can vote in is the one to national parliament.

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Mon Jun 15th, 2009 at 04:12:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
but not for the mayor, as it was decided that this was a position of national importance

That's plain ridiculous...

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Mon Jun 15th, 2009 at 04:22:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
On my own experience: I got a letter earlier this year from the relevant official in Berlin informing me of my right to vote in Germany, and telling me where and how I would have to register. If I had voted in the previous election, I would not need to register, and as I did so, I didn't re-register.

From the point about the need to register, I guess Berlin has a dual roll, but at least they are pro-active about providing information. They want people to vote.

The situation in France is on the other hand quite disgraceful, you had a registration deadline already in December (see: Expats: Your Time to Register is Up (Almost!)). And from what you described, there is little attempt to contact expat voters.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Tue Jun 16th, 2009 at 08:44:06 AM EST
In France, not only is the deadline earlier than other countries, but there is no attempt at all to reach EU citizens with information. Worse, when I went to the town hall to register, I was not given adequate information and was not registered for the European elections.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Jun 16th, 2009 at 10:27:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I rang the local council's electoral services department to find out the situation in the UK.

Essentially, EU citizens register to vote for local elections just like everybody else (by filling in the annual electoral register form).

However, because the electoral services department is obliged to inform the authorities in the country of origin that the EU vote is being exercised in the UK, would-be registrants need to fill in an additional form EC6 in order to take part in the European elections.

Encouragingly, I was told, the department had sent out "a fair few" forms EC6 and received most of them back.

by Sassafras on Tue Jun 16th, 2009 at 02:19:33 PM EST
Thanks, Sassafras. We can confirm that the difference made between the two elections we have a right to vote in anywhere we reside in the EU, is that a system has to be put in place to monitor EP elections, where the citizen may only vote in one country - while, for some reason, local elections are not monitored and it is possible to vote in local elections in two countries.

This inspires me to think that:

  1. allowing a category of citizens (those who live in another country than their country of origin) to vote in two sets of local elections, is contrary to the notion of equal treatment of citizens, and should be struck down;

  2. if this were done, local elections and EP elections could be given the same administrative treatment, and EU citizens resident in another EU country would only need to register once to vote in both types of election in their country of residence (or, if they don't wish that, not to register there but to remain registered in their home country).
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Jun 16th, 2009 at 02:35:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Is it possible to vote in two local elections within France, or is it prohibited? What if the two elections aren't held at the same time?

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Tue Jun 16th, 2009 at 03:17:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No, you can't vote in two local elections within one country. But apparently it is not forbidden to do so in your country of residence and also your home country.

It is this that European legislation forbids for the EP elections. Thus countries must obtain a declaration from the EU resident citizen that s/he will not be voting in the home country. This is what founds the entire separate treatment of registration for the two elections.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Jun 16th, 2009 at 03:35:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I wasn't asked for such a declaration, though. I think that's a national decision, not something required by European law.
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Tue Jun 16th, 2009 at 04:30:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It doesn't appear to be required in the original directive, but I'm not sure if it hasn't been added as an EU requirement since. I'll do some further digging.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Jun 16th, 2009 at 05:07:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No, what I mean, how is it controlled?

If it is a function of registration, and say you have two residences in which mayoral elections come one year apart, then I could imagine someone re-registering between each local election, and voting in both places. This would be possible both within a country and between EU countries -- and would be entirely legal. Which kind of takes away the point of barring voting in both places.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Jun 16th, 2009 at 04:30:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
On a broader note: in local elections, you vote for different constituencies, in EP elections, you vote for the same. So double voting in the latter is two votes in the same election for one person.

On an even broader note, I don't just want a common EU-wide registration (or, rather, automatic maintenance of lists...), but EU-wide party lists to vote on...

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Jun 16th, 2009 at 04:33:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In France, and I would imagine in other countries too, there are rules that govern this - if you have two residences, for example, you may choose to vote in one or the other of the local elections concerned, but not both. Control is carried out by communication between the registration commissions of the two electoral areas concerned.

Local elections are usually all held at the same time - in France, certainly, and it seems to me elsewhere. But between two countries, your scenario is possible. If we want to imagine people motivated to go to all that trouble just to vote in local elections.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Jun 16th, 2009 at 04:52:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In federal states at least, local elections can be all over the place, er, electoral calendar. (Then again, those I know don't have declarative registration.) Another possibility I was thinking of is if rules allow snap local elections followed by a full term, though I don't know if this exists anywhere (f.e. in Hungary, the mandate of winners of snap elections is until the next regular country-wide local elections).

By the way, there is voting on two national elections, too. Something entirely legal.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Jun 16th, 2009 at 05:06:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
DoDo:
two national elections, too. Something entirely legal.

?

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Jun 16th, 2009 at 05:08:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If you are a double citizen, and your country of non-residence allows voting from abroad.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Tue Jun 16th, 2009 at 05:20:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
(Or, again, if you move back and forth.)

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Tue Jun 16th, 2009 at 05:25:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Dual nationality is quite a different question. I'm concerned with the development (or, unfortunately, non-development) of the notion of EU citizenship.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Jun 17th, 2009 at 03:51:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
For a developed EU citizenship, the best parallel is, again, federal countries: i.e. vote in different states in a federal country as parallel to votes in different national elections within the EU.

In Germany, to vote in regional elections, all it takes is usually having German citizenship and having your (main) domicile (resulting in automatic registration) or residence there for the prior three months. This allows even voting in two elections at the same time (if your main domicile is in one and you live in another).

In Austria, both local and regional voting right is bound to residence, thus multiple voting is possible even within a state and at the same time (in local elections if you have multiple residences in the same state).

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Wed Jun 17th, 2009 at 07:53:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
? I don't get it. You think that system is good? It's a premium handed out to wealthier citizens who have two residences. The French system, where you have to choose which one of your residence areas you vote in, is a fair application of "one person, one vote", imo.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Jun 17th, 2009 at 08:24:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The wealthy or migrant workers.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Jun 17th, 2009 at 08:25:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It still should be "one person, one vote".
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Jun 17th, 2009 at 08:37:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
One person, one vote in one democratic unit is my understanding of fair. If they are two disjunct democratic units, then I don't see the point of separating.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Wed Jun 17th, 2009 at 10:30:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm pretty sure I don't know what we're talking about.

You're in favour of this as a model of European citizens' viting rights in which elections, which context? If in one type of election, why not another (or all)?

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Jun 17th, 2009 at 10:57:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I didn't advocate a specific model (and presented two) (I shall do so in a follow-up comment, though). It seems my point in the previous comment is something crucial for our (lack of) understanding, so I'll try to explain it better.

In my view, an election is an exercise in which individuals connect into a collective democratic body by renewing a collective institution with power over them. Be it locals electing a major, residents of a county electing a county council, residents of a state electing a regional parliament, citizens of a country electing a national parliament, or EU citizens electing an EU parliament.

Thus, I say, there should be one voter one vote in a single election -- but a local election in the same country, not to mention local elections in multiple countries, is not one election but several parallel ones. Parallel not in the sense of voting for your local representative, but in the sense that the democratic bodies are different, as defined by the different, what's more disjunct collective institutions (councils/mayors/whatever with power over separate cities/villages).

Hence, I san't see the equality you see between voting twice in two countriesd in the same EU election, and voting in local elections in multiple places.

What I sought to bring up then was examples of parallel votes at other levels than local elections: votes in two national elections (notjust) within the EU, votes in two regional elections within the same federal country.

Further, I sought to counter your insistence on ensuring that one can vote in one local election only with two types of examples/arguments: practical problems with implementing it, and opposite practice in places other than (apparently) France.

The practical was that when parallel elections are held at different times (like local elections in different countries or within a federal country, regional elections within a federal country, or national elections within the EU), you can't exclude people who moved in the time in-between -- even if, in theory, they are moving back and forth with a frequency allowing them to vote in every election at both places.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Wed Jun 17th, 2009 at 12:26:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't understand, and I don't think you are clear, on whether you consider it equitable that some citizens may vote in more than one parallel election (example, local elections in two EU countries, regional elections in federal countries, national elections for dual nationality holders), or whether you are saying that (above all marginally for those who may move back and forth), it cannot be avoided in practice.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Jun 17th, 2009 at 04:18:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ugh, replied before reading below.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Jun 17th, 2009 at 04:22:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
As for what I would think of as a good system.

My principle is that is someone can be expected to be affected by the decisions of a territory-based elected institution, then s/he should be part of the democratic body. To express that in a simpler way: voting rights based on residence over some period of time.

It follows from that that I am little troubled by people with multiple residences voting in multiple local elections: they are affected by all (and in all likelihood, are also paying taxes to all).

However, I am sorry something else also follows which some of the expats on ET won't like: I am troubled by expat voting from abroad. I don't think it's right to grant someone the right to influence the government of an area based on a sentimental attachment when they won't suffer the results, while an immigrant living there for years (and paying taxes) has to be just a sitting duck.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Wed Jun 17th, 2009 at 12:35:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
(Oh, and I want an automatic voter list generation system for the whole of the EU, to hell with declarative registrations...)

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Wed Jun 17th, 2009 at 12:36:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Introducing residential registration to countries that don't have it won't be popular.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Jun 17th, 2009 at 12:44:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I know. (Abolishing the expat vote would not be popular, either -- and not just with expats, but nationalists, too.)

Then again, how many EU countries are we speaking of? Two or three?

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Wed Jun 17th, 2009 at 12:48:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Expat vote is out for me, after more than fifteen years out of the UK.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Jun 17th, 2009 at 04:23:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In principle, residence registration for foreigners is obligatory in France, so EU citizens' electoral registers could be derived from this. Except I'm not entirely sure whether it's still obligatory since (2004) residence permits are no longer required.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Jun 17th, 2009 at 04:21:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And I'm beginning to think this was the major issue that made member states not agree on applying the "uniform procedure" required by Maastricht. So they accepted that people could vote in two local elections, as long as there was a tighter procedure re EP elections. Hence the separate treatment.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Jun 17th, 2009 at 04:29:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So they accepted that people could vote in two local elections

They had little choice: or else, they would have to synchronise the local elections electoral calendar across Europe, and force countries/states already allowing votes in multiple local elections nationally/regionally to remove that right.

Meanwhile, the French system is still not clear to me: how exactly does it prevent registration for multiple local elections? Is there a field on the registration form where you have to declare that you won't vote elsewhere (similar to those discussed for EP elections)? And/or is there communication between local election authorities?

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Thu Jun 18th, 2009 at 02:12:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The later.

In 1998 they had introduced automatic update of voter lists with the military census (obligatory for all 17 yo in France), which I did in a town, yet also renewed my ID in my parents town and wound up in two voter lists ; by the next year one of the two municipalities had wrote me off their list.

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Thu Jun 18th, 2009 at 08:49:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Jun 18th, 2009 at 12:04:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I see that the issue of voting procedure has long been a problem:

European Parliament - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Under the Rome Treaties, the Parliament should have become elected. However the Council was required to agree a uniform voting system before hand, which it failed to do. The Parliament threatened to take the Council to the European Court of Justice leading to a compromise whereby the Council would agree to elections, but the issue of voting systems would be put off till a later date.[15]

That is, already the requirements of the Treaty of Rome were not met, or met late and under duress - never mind what seems to be a similar problem with Maastricht.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Jun 19th, 2009 at 06:04:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In (quasi-federal) Spain all voting is tied to municipal residence rolls (padrón).

The brainless should not be in banking. — Willem Buiter
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 17th, 2009 at 08:28:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, this is an essential difference: there are countries that have residence rolls, and countries that don't. That was my distinction between "automatic" and "declarative" models of compiling electoral registers.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Jun 17th, 2009 at 08:39:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The right to vote in one's home country when residing abroad differs greatly:

HOW THE EUROPEAN UNION WORKS

2.  Vote of non-resident nationals in the countries of origin

In the United Kingdom the right to vote of citizens resident abroad is confined to civil servants, members of the armed forces and citizens who left the country less than five years before, provided they submit a declaration to the appropriate authorities. Austria, Denmark, Portugal and the Netherlands only grant the right to vote to their nationals living in an EU Member State. Sweden, Belgium, France, Spain, Greece and Italy grant their nationals the right to vote whatever their country of residence. Germany grants this right to citizens who have lived in another country for less than ten years. In Ireland and Hungary the right to vote is confined to EU citizens domiciled on the national territory.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Jun 17th, 2009 at 04:34:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's interesting (?) to note that the EU gets it wrong on UK citizens - the figure is fifteen years, not five.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Jun 17th, 2009 at 06:01:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It is not correct, AFAIK, that Danish expats can vote while residents of another Union country. Danish expats cannot vote in Danish parliamentary elections, full stop. It's banned by the constitution, presumably to avoid having people in Schleswig-Holstein who remained Danish citizens vote for the Danish parliament (the constitution was written in the immediate aftermath of the first Schleswig war), and it's never been removed.

- Jake

"Terraforming your own planet to make it uninhabitable hardly counts as epic win." - ThatBritGuy

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Jun 23rd, 2009 at 05:44:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In the US, if you are not living, for whatever reason (college, military, vacation, etc) in your "home" state on election day, you can vote by absentee ballot, which you would arrange at your home town/city hall.

Each state in the US controls its voting, even in national elections, and determines its own rules concerning absentee, or early voting.  

There are deadlines for making these arrangements, and for the acceptance of the ballots for counting purposes, usually requiring that any mailed in ballots received are postmarked by a certain date.

I seem to recall that in 2000(?), this led to a problem when some ballots coming from the military were not postmarked, which raised a question about whether or not they should be legitimately counted.

I realize that you are talking about people who are resident in "foreign" EU countries, but I wonder if such a system would be feasible, especially if foreign residents intended to vote in their local "home" elections.  I feel uncomfortable intruding in this discussion, as an outsider, but this thread just made me think of the absentee ballot, and early voting systems that states have put into place.  Obviously the US has other problems with our election system.
 

by jjellin on Wed Jun 17th, 2009 at 12:40:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
By the way. Are there any safeguards in the US against someone voting in a state they reside in, and also voting in their state of origin by absentee ballot?

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Wed Jun 17th, 2009 at 12:46:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hm m m . . . that's a hard one, because every state is different, but let's just say, in Massachusetts, to do what you are suggesting, you would have to be registered in two places at the same time, which seems like it would be hard to do.  

When you register to vote, you are asked to state that you are a US citizen and indicate if you are currently registered to vote in another town/city.  If you are registered elsewhere, the new town then notifies the old town that you are now registered in the new town and should be removed from the voting roll of the old town.  (This system seems quite archaic, but that's what it is)

But there are always questions about our voting system here which is why some people think we should have some kind of voter identification system--as it is right now, when I go to vote in any election, I walk into the voting place and talk to the election ladies who sit behind a table checking off peoples' names as they come in to vote.  They ask me first my address:  street and number.  Then they ask me my name.  I answer them verbally; no papers or identification card is shown.  They hand me a ballot, which I fill out at a little desk.  When I am done, I take it to another group of election ladies at the back of the room and again tell them my address, then name, which they too check off.  I then insert my ballot into the counting machine under the watchful eye of the police officer.  There is another cop somewhere around the front door too.  And that is it.  And, by the way, neither the election ladies, nor the police officers know me.

One problem that has come up locally is that a couple of well known public figures participated in and voted in their "hometown" local elections, yet they allegedly lived in another city.  In one case, the individual owned an apartment in the town where he voted, but apparently had not lived there for years.  But, presumably, in those cases, the individuals only voted as a "resident" in one hometown, not two.  This doesn't really matter in national or even state elections, but it could matter in a local election.

One safeguard is the fact that registration and voting is a public act, so a person's voting record is accessible and can be questioned. (Your actual choice is not known, but your party affiliation, if any, and the fact that you voted is known.)

In at least some cities, there is another safeguard which is the local census which is sent out once a year, which you are supposed to sign as head of household to account for all the family members, and any dogs, living under your roof, under threat of removal from the voting rolls.

The system is far from perfect, and there have certainly been accusations over the years of various kinds of cheating, dead people voting, etc.

by jjellin on Wed Jun 17th, 2009 at 08:26:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm sorry, I may have misunderstood your question.  You asked about possibly voting in two states at the same time, not two towns within the same state.

Again, the system here is crazy.  Every state has different voter registration requirements and processes (though there are some Constitutionally mandated guarantees--states can no longer prohibit women from voting for example).  One lesson of Bush vs. Gore in 2000 was that the Supreme Court said the states are in charge of the voting results in their own state, and if the State of Florida says Bush won the state of Florida, Bush won there, period.   Whether or not election officials can be certain that none of the Florida voters voted in other states ultimately doesn't matter.

 

by jjellin on Wed Jun 17th, 2009 at 08:40:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
EC6 forms can be obtained in pdf, and this is the part that concerns which country you choose to vote in:

The first part enables the British electoral authorities to send feedback to the "home country" that the citizen has opted to vote in the UK for EP elections until further notice (second part).

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Jun 17th, 2009 at 06:17:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]


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