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Friday Open Thread

by Colman
Fri Jun 26th, 2009 at 09:57:17 AM EST

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Friday Open Thread | 46 comments (46 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

cutbacks (none / 1)

LOL, does that mean we are now like BA and we have to work for ET a whole month without a salary?

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jun 26th, 2009 at 10:21:22 AM EST

Re: cutbacks (4.00 / 2)

Probably. And then the media can have a freak-out about our expenses.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Jun 26th, 2009 at 10:22:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: cutbacks (none / 0)

You think they will find out about our expenses? Guess we better watch out. :-)

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jun 26th, 2009 at 10:24:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: cutbacks (4.00 / 5)

Yes, but first we have to spend hundreds of thousands on taxpayer money to take ourselves on a swanky weekend retreat.

Jesus died for somebody's sins but not mine - Patti Smith

by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Fri Jun 26th, 2009 at 11:07:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: cutbacks (none / 0)

Hey, thats a great idea - how about Burlesconis hide-away on Sardinia?

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jun 26th, 2009 at 11:09:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: cutbacks (4.00 / 4)

No thanks, I don't want to sound snobbish, but he's got such appalling taste.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri Jun 26th, 2009 at 11:13:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: cutbacks (4.00 / 2)

But, but,.. isn't that the point?

Jesus died for somebody's sins but not mine - Patti Smith

by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Fri Jun 26th, 2009 at 12:12:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: cutbacks (4.00 / 4)

just back from a nice EU Commission funded conference in Rotterdam - thanks for reminding me to claim for my expenses...

notes from no w here

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Fri Jun 26th, 2009 at 11:35:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: cutbacks (4.00 / 4)

I just want to say from the outset that cleaning the moat was Helen's idea.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Fri Jun 26th, 2009 at 12:51:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: cutbacks (4.00 / 3)

But is the duck house a canard?

by Sassafras on Fri Jun 26th, 2009 at 02:01:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: cutbacks (none / 1)

It flipping is!

Modern conservatives engage in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy: the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.Galbraith

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Fri Jun 26th, 2009 at 04:50:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

What? (4.00 / 2)

Jerome was paying people?

by Magnifico on Fri Jun 26th, 2009 at 11:30:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What? (4.00 / 3)

in our dreams...

"Once in awhile we get shown the light, in the strangest of places, if we look at it right" - Hunter/Garcia

by whataboutbob on Fri Jun 26th, 2009 at 11:41:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Ouch... (4.00 / 4)

I've been following the Waxman-Markey bill with a half eye - because if done well, it would be a tremendous step forward, for the US and for the rest of the world.

On Kos, Meteor Blades chimes in:

Daily Kos: State of the Nation

Which sounds great... except that "foreign oil" (or domestic oil for that matter) doesn't compete in the electricity marketplace. It goes in gas tanks. Waxman-Markey does contain instructions for utilities to plan for more infrastructure in support of electric vehicles, and language that allows for encouragement of such vehicles, but it doesn't seem to contain any money toward that end. So whether Waxman-Markey would help reduce America's thirst for oil is as much up in the air as... all the carbon allowed under those permits.
If I was facing this bill on the floor of the Congress, I'd vote yes. But I'd hold my nose while I did it.

Worth reading the whole thing.

by Nomad on Fri Jun 26th, 2009 at 11:54:39 AM EST

DT != MB (4.00 / 2)

I'm not sure MB has chimed in yet, that was Devilstower's essay that you quoted from.

by Magnifico on Fri Jun 26th, 2009 at 12:02:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Whoops (none / 1)

My bad. Thanks for correcting.

by Nomad on Fri Jun 26th, 2009 at 12:24:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ouch... (none / 0)

On the health care front, Jay Rockefeller says something not-stupid.

So we have Rockefeller and Specter moving in the right direction, while supposed "liberals" and "moderates" like DiFi and Baucus are jerking us around.

Still, this is progress. My theory of the health care fight is that if we get Specter, we'll probably wind up getting Lieberman, Nelson and the Maine girls in the end, since that little clique has to hang together in order to maintain their power. And the Maine girls, having voiced support for a "trigger" (thus already accepting the premise of the public option), can probably be swung over. Nelson has already signaled he's not going to filibuster anything.

And that means we probably get the other Dems in the end.

Still fairly early in the process, so a lot can change either way, and we're still a long way from the October deadline to move to reconciliation.

What I'd be curious to know -- and I'm hoping someone with more knowledge of Congress can clue me in, since I don't grok all the procedural bullshit -- is whether you could pass something shitty in the Senate (no public option), pass something very good in the House (w/ public option) where we don't have to dick around with the filibuster, and walk away with the essential elements in conference.

And the details of "reconciliation" are still murky to me, so how does that fit in?

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Fri Jun 26th, 2009 at 01:01:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ouch... (none / 1)

Actually, Ezra sheds a little light on the logic of the end game.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Fri Jun 26th, 2009 at 01:29:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ouch... (none / 0)

With the Dems controlling all leadership roles as long as Reid and Pelosi are on board it is quite conceivable that a weak Senate bill and a better house bill could turn into a workable bill with the government option coming out of conference, especially if Henry Waxman and Ted Kennedy, (or another Senator who is a proponent of a strong bill), have leadership roles in conference. This is how the Republicans got the worst of their measures enacted under W. Now if they could just do the same for the energy bill.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer at eurotrib.com) on Fri Jun 26th, 2009 at 02:14:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ouch... (none / 1)

I think -- oddly, since it's clearly the more contentious issue in the polling -- we're going to have an easier go of it on the energy bill, except to say that we can't use reconciliation on that.

But, yeah, that's what I'm wondering: Could they pass (say) Wyden-Bennett in the Senate, which seems to be where the Senate's headed anyway with a few Reps on board, and pass a proper bill in the House, and leave conference with something that we'll look at years from now as having been pretty good? All you'd really be left fighting over at that point is (1) how to pay for it and (2) the public option.

I think they can do that. (No rule jumps out at me saying they can't.) I believe both Waxman and Rockefeller are on the committee. Don't think Kennedy is, especially given his health.

Ultimately, I have trouble seeing a filibuster happening, to be honest. I think it's going to wind up being one of those bills where people make a lot of noise and wind up voting for it anyway. If those things happen, I think we wind up getting the usual Republicans and a few vulnerable ones. The Maine girls and HoJo are gonna want to have Snarlin' Arlen's back, and Snarlin' Arlen is clearly moving as quickly as he can -- actually a few months faster than I, personally, thought he would -- to make nice with the Democratic base in Pennsyltucky while trying not to flip-flop so fast that it attracts attention (we're between the Wink-Wink and Full Conversion stages at this point).

Anyway, that's kinda how I see it playing out. Could be wrong.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Fri Jun 26th, 2009 at 02:31:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ouch... (none / 0)

Just out of my weird side, how about that the WH are stringing this out 2 years cos they know they're gonna get a more amenable Senate and pass the full thing with nobody getting in the way, nobody needs to be bought, noboby needs to be placated ?

Just wondering

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri Jun 26th, 2009 at 06:18:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ouch... (none / 0)

But by then you're left dicking around with the presidential election, and our guys and gals really can't afford to be going out in 2010 running on the fact that they passed a stimulus package two years earlier and didn't do shit the rest of the time.

There's logic to what you're saying, of course, but Congress is a logic-free zone. It's little wonder to me Obama and others go wobbly on this or that issue when so many members of their own party immediately sandbag them the moment they show signs of doing something right.

Where your logic does hold up is in this way: If it were the case that we couldn't get anything very good (I don't think that's the case), you could go with passing something universal, even if it kinda sucks, and then go back to fix it in 2011 or 2013 when we (hopefully and probably) have more members. You'll spend a little too much money on it, but who cares if you can firmly institutionalize the principle of universal coverage and not only leave the door open to further socialization, but basically require it in a kind of reverse-Drown Government in a Bathtub/setting-up-a-Shock-Doctrine-ahead-of-time situation?

I'm not sure if that would be workable or not. It's a point on which the concept of a trigger could theoretically work if it were done right, but how often does something like that get done right? Very rarely.

I'm okay with buying people and horse-trading if it means we get something good. If Senator Generic Shithead wants some stupid committee assignment or some pet project -- well, fine, whatever. Being highly risk-averse, I'd rather get it done now than roll the dice on having a better Congress in 2011, even though it seems likely.

Especially when we still have reconciliation as a last resort.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Fri Jun 26th, 2009 at 06:40:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ouch... (none / 1)

...adding: A lot of what's been going on the past few weeks is, as you can imagine, positioning. "Oh, I dunno if I can vote for that because blahblahblah." In almost every case, it's total nonsense. They just want attention and favors.

Now that phase of the process is passing over and everybody seems to be going back to their respective corners. Is Mark Warner really gonna vote against a public option? I highly doubt it. Is DiFi? No. She did the same thing on the stimulus bill and eventually fell in line.

A lot of it really isn't serious.

Which is fortunate, since the reformers on our side have done such a lousy job for the last few weeks.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Fri Jun 26th, 2009 at 06:47:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ouch... (none / 1)

The other real possibility is that they pass as good a bill as they can now. This will still leave it costing too much. Then, in 2011, they could go after costs by beefing up the public plan and putting the squeeze on the private insurers and a second round for big pharma. Knock out the effective "oligopoly rent" being extracted by the insurance companies and pharma and the cost of insuring everyone starts to drop below what we are paying today.

The danger, of course, is that they pass as good a bill as they can get now and that is what we are stuck with.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer at eurotrib.com) on Fri Jun 26th, 2009 at 07:35:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Educatinal cutbqcks (4.00 / 8)

From the NYT
(h/t Freethought and Pharyngula)

by Sassafras on Fri Jun 26th, 2009 at 02:13:12 PM EST

Re: Educatinal cutbqcks (4.00 / 6)

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Fri Jun 26th, 2009 at 07:36:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Friday Open Thread (4.00 / 4)

What? No MJ thread? What the heck's goin' on over here? Even the Russian blogs are all over this. You're, like, the last website left in the whole universe that doesn't have either a story memorializing the King of Pop or a story about how there are too many stories memorializing him. Oof.

I'm sad and super nostalgic for the halcyon days of my childhood, which began when we got MTV (82) and ended when the Challenger exploded (86). Thriller was my first "culture wars" experience. It was so huge for us kids. HUGE. It wasn't just because it was popular record or he was a great dancer or whatever. In my neighborhood it was little kids fighting the psycho Christians for the right to watch dancing zombies on tv! It rocked.

I'm too sentimental for my own good. I've come down with a terrible bout of 80's fever ... halp...

Apropos of nothing, today is Khodorkovsky's birthday. Here is a picture of him with a cat.

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Fri Jun 26th, 2009 at 03:42:41 PM EST

Re: Friday Open Thread (4.00 / 2)

What, did the rest of you die too? Where is everyone?

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Fri Jun 26th, 2009 at 04:28:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Friday Open Thread (4.00 / 6)

all to busy avoiding the media with its wall to wall Jackson memorials,

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri Jun 26th, 2009 at 04:44:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 1)

although there is proof that jackson was an alien must have been the daleks who did it.

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri Jun 26th, 2009 at 05:02:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Friday Open Thread (4.00 / 4)

I have trouble getting in on the whole Jackson thing, since I'm not much of a pop/dance fan. I remember HIStory vaguely, with that bizarre video for "Scream" that he and his sister did, and I vaguely remember my mother playing Thriller when I was a little kid, but, to me, Jackson was always an okay singer with weird videos and silly dance moves.

Nothing against him, really, but I never understood what all the fuss was about, and I certainly never understood Jackson being among the top two highest-selling artists of all time. "Thriller" was a catchy song and all, but 50m copies sold? Really? I don't get it.

I have a difficult enough time understanding the fame of the Beatles and Elvis, both of which probably trailed Jackson in terms of raw talent but were at least "important" before him, even if they were both ripoffs and less well known but infinitely more talented artists.

I mean, are the Jackson 5 really worthy of being above and beyond some generic kids' group (like Hanson), based purely on the fact that they got to it three decades earlier by virtue of being born sooner? And was MJ, on his own, really anything other than an okay singer (didn't have much range) doing rock-disco fusion with creative video writers?

Again, not trying to be an ass, and it's nothing against MJ. He had a really screwed up life, and if there's an afterlife, I hope he's finally found some peace. He did a lot of good work outside of the music industry while he was alive. And it's not that I think his music was bad or something. I own a couple of his records.

It's just that I can't jump on board with the general public's idol-worship of what were essentially singers who got paid for making pre-teen girls squeal.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Fri Jun 26th, 2009 at 05:27:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Friday Open Thread (4.00 / 2)

I guess you either get it or you don't. don't worry, I didn't either

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri Jun 26th, 2009 at 06:25:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Friday Open Thread (4.00 / 2)

He was a great entertainer.

Like all entertainers, he kept people entertained.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Fri Jun 26th, 2009 at 07:24:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0)

He was definitely that.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Fri Jun 26th, 2009 at 08:45:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Friday Open Thread (4.00 / 2)

The only song of his I really liked was:

Naturally enough the New York Times got all twitterpatted about the lines"

"Jew me, sue me
Everybody do me
Kick me, kike me"

and said he was promoting antisemitism.

Morons.

No one could have predicted

by ATinNM on Fri Jun 26th, 2009 at 05:52:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 1)

I do remember that. I prefer the version he filmed in the prison.

Good song.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Fri Jun 26th, 2009 at 06:08:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 1)

there were many controversial things about him, starting with his image as one of the main American exports, his conspicious skin problems (as though he wanted to become white and lovely looking girl), but it's undeniable he was HUGE talent which broke existing boundaries in US as well as in outside world. that's why so many people mourn him and news of his death really deserved BREAKING NEWS status. For example here in India Iranian election controversy attracted very little attention as people think it's just internal struggle for power. On comparison MJ' departure climbed even into Hindi (Bengali, Punjabi, Tamil, Malayali, etc..) TV news channels and even mentioned (albeit in the end of the news program) on state-run DD news channel.

I knew more about his recent songs than his earlier works, so I liked Invincible and HIStory. Hopefully they can climb in charts to repay his debts and leave something for orphans.

by FarEasterner (avdavydov@yandex.ru) on Sat Jun 27th, 2009 at 02:48:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

News for Toulousse (4.00 / 2)

Afew, take cover: The Spanish are coming....

Anytime now, the Spanish community of exiled republicans/families will gather in town to commemorate some event and set another plaque somewhere.

Act surprised. (;

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. -Charu Saxena.

by metavision on Fri Jun 26th, 2009 at 04:59:33 PM EST

Re: News for Toulousse (4.00 / 3)

The Durrati Column will never be defeated.

by rootless2 (redacted) on Fri Jun 26th, 2009 at 05:32:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: News for Toulousse (none / 1)

Toulouse is a centre for exiled Spanish republicans. I've known several over the years, or rather some years ago, because now their children and grandchildren are the generation in place.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Jun 27th, 2009 at 01:48:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Friday Open Thread (4.00 / 3)

The Washington post is apparently reporting that REPORT: PRESIDENT OBAMA PREPARING EXECUTIVE ORDER TO ALLOW INDEFINITE DETENTION WITHOUT TRIAL OF TERROR SUSPECTS.

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri Jun 26th, 2009 at 06:13:17 PM EST

Re: Friday Open Thread (4.00 / 2)

Also, voting on the American Clean Energy and Security Act in the House right now. All GOP alternatives have been rejected.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Fri Jun 26th, 2009 at 07:06:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Passed (4.00 / 2)

The House has passed the cap and trade bill.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Fri Jun 26th, 2009 at 07:19:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Passed (4.00 / 3)

The biggest corporate boondoggle since the Millennium Bug.

Modern conservatives engage in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy: the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.Galbraith

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Fri Jun 26th, 2009 at 07:26:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Passed (4.00 / 2)

Haven't kept up. What horrors does it contain?

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Fri Jun 26th, 2009 at 07:27:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]