Ostalgie today

by DoDo
Tue Jun 30th, 2009 at 03:38:02 AM EST

Ostalgie was a word coined in the late nineties in Germany, for the nostalgia felt by part of the East Germans towards the lost artefacts, style, certainties, relative safety, and identity in the "German Democratic Republic". Something that was difficult to fathom for those in West Germany who saw it as nothing else but a big temporary prison -- and former East Germans who felt it like a big temporary prison. Hence, it is cause for emotional debates ever since.

A new poll released yesterday by the federal government's Commissary for the East, Wolfgang Tiefensee (the federal transport minister; himself from Saxony) again raised the alarms of the second faction: 57% think that the GDR had more good sides than bad.


(Note though that in parallel with the massive investment in East German infrastructure and the collapse of the old East German industry and the emergence of chronic unemployment, there was a massive net migration to the West. Also, since East and West Berlin formed a single state of Germany, it is usually counted with the West in East vs. West stats. So, this 57% is a majority of only those who remained.)

In the graphs below, red is for East Germans (minus East Berlin), yellow is for West Germans (plus East Berlin).

What is your retrospective judgement of the GDR? Which of these theses do you agree with?

From left to right:
  • The GDR had predominantly bad sides. One lived in a dictatorship, and there were shortages in many areas
  • The GDR had more bad sides than good. There were many problems, but one could master circumstances at a pinch
  • The GDR had more good sides than bad. There were some problems, but one could have a good life there
  • The GDR had predominantly good sides. People had a happier and better life there than today in reunified Germany.

I'm not sure the exhaust of the ubiquitous two-stroke engines, the plattenbau living quarters, and the all-present nomenclatura and Stasi were just some problems, but sure I am not surprised at such views. Nor am I surprised by the reactions, the least hostile of which was that of the minister:

"Es ist erfreulich, dass sich Ost- und Westdeutsche in der Bewertung der Wichtigkeit der Ereignisse von 1989 einig sind. Die Ergebnisse zeigen uns aber auch, dass wir in der Aufarbeitung der DDR-Geschichte nicht nachlassen dürfen. Die Beurteilung der DDR hat nach meiner Wahrnehmung viel zu tun mit der individuellen Situation der Menschen heute: Verunsicherung, das Gefühl der Zweitklassigkeit, enttäuschte Erwartungen in Bezug auf Arbeit und Einkommen prägen das Bild. Hier müssen wir ansetzen. Wir brauchen einerseits das Wissen über die jüngste deutsch-deutsche Geschichte, andererseits gilt es, weiter an der Vollendung der sozialen Einheit zu arbeiten""It is gratifying that East and West Germans are in agreement over the assessment of the importance of the events of 1989. The results also show us that we should not slacken off in processing the history of the GDR. The assessment of the GDR has, in my view, a lot to do with the individual situation of people today: uncertainty, a feeling of being second-class, unmet expectations in terms of employment and income dominate the picture. We must focus here. We need on one hand the knowledge of the most recent [West-]German-[East-]German history, and on the other hand, we must work further on achieving the social [Re]unification."

The "unmet expectations" meme is a common way to explain away Ostalgie -- and IMO both an ignorant and hypocritical one. There is a rather wide gap between believing Helmut Kohl's election slogan about "Flourishing landscapes", and finding oneself without a job for 10 years, while weed is flourishing instead within the perimeter of the factory you worked at.

Then again, unmet expectations were the subject of another question.

Which hopes from 1989/90 are realised today?

From left to right:
  • Legal freedom, freedom of opinion, press and travel freedom
  • enforcement of the rule of law, equality before law
  • material wealth
  • influence of the single citizen on law[making]
  • don't know

From this, you can't say that even most 'diehards' regret the new liberties. Meanwhile, it stands out that even more than the economic situation, half the people feel a democratic deficit -- and in the West, too.

Two of the questions were rather stupid: asking about the significance of the events of 1989/90 (without asking about what the significance was), and whether people can be proud of getting past the dictatorship peacefully (who would say no?...). But there was one more informative question:

In your opinion, which of the following factors was crucial for the end of the rule of the SED [East German socialist party]?

From left to right:
  • The economic collapse of the GDR
  • Gorbachev's Perestroika and the transition in Hungary and Poland
  • Protests in East Germany in autumn 1989
  • The policy of the West
  • Don't know

Take that, "Reagan broke down the Wall" triumphalists. Again, you find that even most "ostalgics" credit/blame domestic reasons rather than conspiracy -- in fact more credit/blame the West in West Germany than in East Germany!

For me, what's most noteworthy is the very similar range of ideas in East and West. But, also note how only a minority credit the people for the changes.

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Some headlines:

Süddeutsche Zeitung (centre-left broadsheet daily in Munich, Bavaria - West Germany):

Umfrage - Ostdeutsche verklären DDR Survey - East Germans transfigure the DDR

[Language note: verklären is a word without English equivalent, "mis-enlighten" or "mis-explain" would be closer]

Die Welt (center-right broadsheet daily of the right-wing Springer media empire, formerly in Hamburg now in Berlin - West Germany):

Die Freiheit und das Fressen The freedom and the feeding

Thüringer Allgemeine (local daily belonging to the center-left WAZ media group in Erfurt, Thuringia - East Germany):

Mehrheitlich ostalgisch Majority-ostalgic

Mitteldeutsche Zeitung (local paper owned by the liberal M. DuMont Schauberg media group, in Halle, Saxony-Anhalt - East Germany):

Osten blickt milde auf DDR East has a mild view on the GDR


*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Sat Jun 27th, 2009 at 10:15:10 AM EST
There was a subject this morning on TV news about an exhibition somewhere in Germany where children could dress as Communist Pioneers complete with white shirts and red scarves and visit rooms full of DDR paraphernalia.

The concern, if I understood, is that children born since 1989 are totally ignorant of what DDR and living in it was; a complete black hole in this younger generation.

As for me, our family lived in West-Berlin in the 70s and we paid a couple of short visits to the East (through the famous checkpoint Charlie); you had to in order to visit places like Unter Den Linden, Alexander Platz, Pergamon Museum or anything East of Brandenburger Tor.

This is the only place where I saw steam locomotives in regular operation. The streets were almost empty of cars compared to the Western side. It was just a few kilometers away from where we lived at the time (Wedding, the neighborhood where Nanne lives today), but it felt like a complete time warp.

The East TV channels were full of black and white Russian war movies, and also a few old French movies, amazingly enough.

Europeans think a hundred miles is a long way. Americans think a hundred years is a long time.

by Bernard on Sat Jun 27th, 2009 at 11:39:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The concern, if I understood, is that children born since 1989 are totally ignorant of what DDR and living in it was; a complete black hole in this younger generation.

That, in my view, is a concern with the attached weight of wanting children to have the same interpretation of the past as the one one gained. The problem here is that IMO, on one hand, this lack of knowledge of the younger generations stems from a lack of interest to seek out information (no emotional investment like for those who lived at the time); on the other hand, it is not born from lack of available information. For example, German filmmakers and TV movie producers produce films which have the evil of the GDR as plot element every year (some of it good, some of it crude Wessie caricature).

steam locomotives in regular operation

That's an interesting episode, BTW. Steam locos, and coal-fired at that, were brought back after the Second Oil Crisis became one in the Eastern Bloc, too (AFAIK because the Soviet Union wanted to sell closer to world market prices, too). It was a boon for Western railfans - who became a recognised welcome source of convertible forex for the regime...

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Sat Jun 27th, 2009 at 12:23:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
[Language note: verklären is a word without English equivalent, "mis-enlighten" or "mis-explain" would be closer]

Indeed. I think you could even make a case for "romanticize" in this context.

Jesus died for somebody's sins but not mine - Patti Smith

by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Sat Jun 27th, 2009 at 11:48:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
How much is this about the lost sense of economic security that one could be expected to enjoy in the GDR? One of the prominent interpretations of the collapse of the GDR, among those who lived through it, those who made it happen, and the academics that have studied it, was that many ossis wanted the material wealth of the consumer society of the West, but expected they would be able to maintain that economic security in the process. Gain something but not have to sacrifice something.

Yet it doesn't seem to have quite worked out that way in the post-reunification era, and that could be a driver of what ostalgie actually exists.

What the polls here suggest is that in the east there is a sense that the fall of the GDR was a Good Thing, but that key promises and aspirations remain unfulfilled. I'm sure one can find something similar across the former Eastern Bloc, especially in the heat of the economic crisis.

And the world will live as one

by Montereyan (robert at calitics dot com) on Mon Jun 29th, 2009 at 10:14:53 AM EST
If you look for Ostalgie in the Eastern Europe, you can find some, but I guess it is easy to miss it as well. People do not mention the communist times often, and do not pick up the conversation topic gladly. They got what they wanted - a chance to catch up with examples of materially wealthy neigbours. They did not bargain for much more - witness a decade of quite massive emigration.

But in anonymous polls they can make calm rather than emotional comparisons. Do many have much to remember of the nomenclatura or Stasi? When did they start to hate plattenbau quarters, ubiquitous (though still too few?) two-stroke exhaust engines, steam locomotives? Wasn't the family and social life better? Not so many bother to compare.

by das monde on Mon Jun 29th, 2009 at 05:35:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
many ossis wanted the material wealth of the consumer society of the West, but expected they would be able to maintain that economic security in the process. Gain something but not have to sacrifice something.

That's a better wording of a view I was critical of in the diary:

The "unmet expectations" meme is a common way to explain away Ostalgie -- and IMO both an ignorant and hypocritical one. There is a rather wide gap between believing Helmut Kohl's election slogan about "Flourishing landscapes", and finding oneself without a job for 10 years, while weed is flourishing instead within the perimeter of the factory you worked at.

In the above, I am also alluding to another version of the theory, with speaks about unmet promises: that is, the theory that an overwhelming majority of East Germans believed that election slogan. However, I don't believe even that.

If I remember how people or I myself felt here, it was not at all a rosy image as above indicated. At the end of the eighties, Eastern Bloc economies were in decline. (And East Germans remember that: see the third diagram I showed in the diary.) The predominant feeling was that things will get worse before they get better, and that there will be big transformations. In East Germany, the hope for a turnaround may have been stronger due to the money expected to flow in from the West, but, still.

But what many people got was not merely a failure to gain something without sacrificing something, not merely job insecurity. But a depression. The disappearance or massive shrinking of most existing companies, with not much new to replace them. Meanwhile, specially in East Germany, a brain drain: those who could and felt able did not wait for good-paying jobs to arrive, but used their freedom to move to move such jobs in the West. On a massive scale: 3 million by 2002. (Net migration was less, under 1.5 million back then; but a sizable part of those moving in from the West were retired.)

I also want to argue that Ostalgie itself cannot be reduced to the economic dimension only. There is the loss of culture (and with that identity). You have to consider that after Reunification, everything from brands in the supermarket through street marks to television was adopted from West Germany. For example, the most famous symbol of Ostalgie was the Ampelmännchen, the figure of the walking/standing man in traffic lights for pedestrians: there was a broad movement requesting that it be kept, fighting federal demands for standardisation (and ultimately winning the right after a long fight).

I'm sure one can find something similar across the former Eastern Bloc

There are different complications. For one, the economic collapses and neolib reforms went on in the other countries without a Reunification with a West that is at least investing massively in infrastructure. On the other hand, while the heir of the SED developed into a hard-leftist opposition party, the heirs of most other 'communist' parties developed into more or less corrupt, more or even more 'reformed', at times election-winning parties; and thus, the reflection on the past is coloured by the view of the present in wholly different ways. Finally, the disappearance of old brands etc. wasn't total, so the equivalents of sentimental Ostalgie are less pronounced.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Mon Jun 29th, 2009 at 06:09:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
and I was informed by the Uni legal advice that Thüringia was one of the more difficult states to immigrate in as opposed to the West.  You would think they would be more accommodating to well educated migrants because of that.  But no, in an irrational fit of xenophobia, they'd rather commit economic and cultural suicide rather than let them nasty foreigners in.

Yes, I'm bitching about the Auslandsamt again, sorry

"Schiller sprach zu Goethe, Steck in dem Arsch die Flöte! Goethe sagte zu Schiller, Mein Arsch ist kein Triller!"

by Jeffersonian Democrat (rzg6f@virginia.edu) on Tue Jun 30th, 2009 at 03:08:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
(BTW, I missed that diary of yours -- along with a lot else; for example, I got to reading all of FarEasterner's Thailand, Nepal and India diaries only the previous weekend --, hope I can find the time today.)

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Tue Jun 30th, 2009 at 03:43:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Some stats. While the economic situation I described improved since, some things remain in a chronic state.

  • East German per capita GDP is quite stable around 70% of that in the West (see graph until 2002 on page 3 right here).

  • The decreased unemployment rate is still twice that in the West (13.3% vs 6.9% in May 2009).

  • The low-wage sector is much higher in the East (see pdf page 65 of the Third Poverty Report; 2005: 6.8% of all employees in West Germany, 19.4% in East Germany).

  • Thus it's no wonder that average pre-tax wages in the East stagnated at 77.5% of those in the West even in 2005 (see pdf page 17  of the Third Poverty Report)

  • The East-West internal emigration (see for East Germany including Berlin vs. West Germany until 2006 on pdf page 18 here; and for East Germany vs. West Germany without Berlin until 2007 here) continues steadily (around 50,000/year net).


*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Tue Jun 30th, 2009 at 05:38:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's really quite ignorant of me to comment on the topic I know very little about and frankly never had to endure.  Well, that won't stop me.  

It occurs to me that there is a growing dialogue about the Cold War era that we can only begin to have as time heals wounds and we have a more objective, less sensitive, defensive perspective.  While it appears that only a small minority of people actually want to return to that era, many people who lived through it now openly talk about what as been lost in the last 20 years, such as the sense of community and solidarity, the role of friendship, a certain idealism.  Yet, if one is to say the fall of the Berlin Wall or the Soviet Union was a kind of tragedy, they are still considered dangerously insane.  I'm sure it was terrible for many, esp. those who naturally inclined to challenge the status quo, the intellectuals, artists, dreamers, idealists, rabblerousers...  Despite my hopeless infatuation with Communism now, I'm certain I'd have been among the wrong crowd had I been born in the DDR.  Too romantic to ignore the injustices around me, too scared to try to escape, finding ways to get through the day, attempting suicide.  I hear the DDR had a very high suicide rate. (Have you seen The Lives of Others?)  But I get the impression that the average citizen then did what the average citizen does today: resign themselves to the system they've been handed, indulge in the occasional patriotism, and concentrate most of their lives on working, raising a family, domesticity, entertainments...  Quiet lives of desperation.  And content enough, but just enough most days.  Some days miserable, some days joyous.  I think the West has been resistant to accepting the universality of this phenomenon.

There was always something cool about East Germany, at least in my American psyche.  Something about the aesthetic I associated with it.  Severe and intelligent and modern in the old-school modern way.  I don't know precisely where I got the idea from.  I'm not even sure I've ever seen East German art.  I don't know how I came to the conclusion, but in my young mind, East Germany, or was it East Berlin?, was crawling with hipsters.  And not the poseur kind.

I can't believe it has already been 20 years...   I feel like that last 20 years have been a progression of events that have chiseled away at all of the hope and optimism I was filled with watching that wall come down.

Lastly, forgive me if this has been discussed in one of the zillion of EU Parliament election diaries, but are you familiar with Sahra Wagenknecht?  I saw a little item about her on Deutsche Welle and was quite intrigued.  Is she absolutely fringe, or do you think she is somewhat representative of the people in this poll?  She's fringe, isn't she?  

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Mon Jun 29th, 2009 at 12:20:24 PM EST
Only a quick reply now on the last: Sahra Wahrenknecht was one of the two 'stars' of the PDS party (the successor of the East German state 'communist' party SED, and the East German one of the two predecessors of today's Left Party): provocative, passionate about ideology, good speaker, young, and good-looking. Thus, she is both not representative (as being a prominent intellectual/party politician; and being more the face than the holder of power within the party) and representative (of at least that half of the 57% positive about the GDR who vote for the PDS/Left Party).

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Mon Jun 29th, 2009 at 01:43:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
passionate about ideology ... being more the face than the holder of power within the party

Adding; implicit in that is internal conflict with the pragmatists who were/are in regional governments in East German states.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Mon Jun 29th, 2009 at 01:47:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Lives of desperation are no less quiet than before. And not only for East Europeans.

Did suicide statistics change in East Germany? I heard that in Baltic countries or Hungary they went worse.

by das monde on Mon Jun 29th, 2009 at 05:39:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In Hungary? No. Hungary led the global suicide rate list sometime in the eighties; and suicides peaked in 1983 (4,911 out of ten million). The number sank ever since (2,450 in 2007), with only slight upticks at times of crisis. Then again, this is from the 2007 ESPAD report, based on a poll of young people in 36 European countries:



*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Mon Jun 29th, 2009 at 06:32:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Bah. Forgot to say: the diagram is for suicide attempts.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Tue Jun 30th, 2009 at 06:12:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As for East and West Germany: check page 8 of this pdf. It shows a near monotonous decrease from the seventies both in the East and West (may be an effect of psychopharmaca), with the East coming close to the West from a higher level. Interestingly, the areas of what became East Germany were higher before 1945 already!

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Mon Jun 29th, 2009 at 06:40:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Absolutely everything I know about suicide statistics in the DDR I learned from Lives of others.  What?!  You mean that movie misled me?!  <--bit of snark in that last sentence...

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.
by poemless on Wed Jul 1st, 2009 at 11:48:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The movie may have also misled you into believing that ordinary citizens in the West could look up the codes of Stasi agents, but that it was impossible for journalists to do so (it didn't mislead me, but noticing this when I saw the movie sort of ruined the ending...)
by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Wed Jul 1st, 2009 at 07:59:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
To indulge in my superficial maleness, she's hot and has a Rosa Luxemburg thing going, and uses it too.

Non-Superficially, I find her a little too, dare I say, Stalinist for my taste.  I think that is in fact detrimental to the party.  The one thing Die Linke really needs to do is shake off the perception that it is the SED reincarnate.  My opinion is that it is one of the main barriers to gaining more votes and party support from people who are left but eye the party with suspicion.  The old dinosaurs of the SED and PDS, and the new dogmatic idealogues like Sarah, do not help in those efforts.

"Schiller sprach zu Goethe, Steck in dem Arsch die Flöte! Goethe sagte zu Schiller, Mein Arsch ist kein Triller!"

by Jeffersonian Democrat (rzg6f@virginia.edu) on Tue Jun 30th, 2009 at 03:01:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
but is it really Dogma, or is it the old 80's buzzwords bringing back old feelings from that decades propaganda?

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Jun 30th, 2009 at 04:06:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hard for me to say as I am not sure what the German buzzwords are, it's probably a little of both.  My personal opinion is that Wagenknecht in particular actually enjoys a little controversial demogoguery to add to her image.  I got the impression that she works on her image.  Just a gut reaction from one lecture.  Take it with a grain of salt.

But things like Bodo Ramelow, the head guy here in Thüringia is on record refusing to admit that the DDR was a repressive state.  Things like that I feel are not helpful.  Germany has come a long way in coming to terms with its Nazi past, I think Die Linke, if it is to be a strong and viable party, also needs to come to terms with its Stalinist past, admit the SED was a repressive mistake and reinforce that Democratic Socialism is just that, democratic.  If there were more Marxists like Bertolt Brecht, who was disgusted with Stalinism and refused to join any party, and more practical neo-marxist and practical socialists, I think the party would have more to offer people who are left of the corporatist SPD but wary of any taint of old style SED communism.

"Schiller sprach zu Goethe, Steck in dem Arsch die Flöte! Goethe sagte zu Schiller, Mein Arsch ist kein Triller!"

by Jeffersonian Democrat (rzg6f@virginia.edu) on Tue Jun 30th, 2009 at 07:57:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What do you mean by "Stalinist", exactly?  

As I understood it, the main difference between Wagenknecht and Ramelow is Ramelow's belief in compromise and creating a leftist alliance with the SPD, etc. which is larger and popular but more centrist, and trying to move things further to the left in that way, whereas Wagenknecht is more of an uncompromising ideological hardliner who thinks the best way for the left is to stand its ground firmly.  The way this was framed by the German news programme I was watching reminded me very much of the dynamics of the left in America.  The pragmatists v. the ideologues.  Frankly, I'm torn, realistically.  But I'm really digging Sahra.  I mean, really there is hardly a dearth of leftists ready to compromise their values at the drop of a hat, is there?  The world could probably use a few more honest to goodness commies!

You write that If there were more Marxists like Bertolt Brecht, who was disgusted with Stalinism and refused to join any party, and more practical neo-marxist and practical socialists, I think the party would have more to offer people who are left of the corporatist SPD but wary of any taint of old style SED communism.  It's interesting to me because I've just been reading Zizek, who was taking precisely the opposite position, arguing that "in spite of its horrors and failures, the "really existing Socialism" was the only political force that - for some decades, at least - seemed to pose an effective threat to the global rule of capitalism..." and that the Frankfurt School types may have been doing themselves no favors by unquestioningly accepting classical liberal democracy and by obsessing about Fascism.

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Wed Jul 1st, 2009 at 11:44:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Zizek, who was taking precisely the opposite position, arguing that "in spite of its horrors and failures, the "really existing Socialism" was the only political force that - for some decades, at least - seemed to pose an effective threat to the global rule of capitalism..."

There is truth in this, then again, 'real existing Socialism' generated its own demise in the form of a nomenclatura wanting to sustain its control over (at least part of) the means of production by going capitalist. In other words, 'real existing Socialism' not only has a checkered record, but doesn't look like a recipe for the future -- in that, the various stripes and schools of Western Eurocommunists might be closer.

Back to the Left Party's Kommunistische Plattform, I may agree with JD if he means stuff like wanting to whitewash Egon Krenz or the Berlin Wall. Then again, when Sahra says f.e. that she is against a blanket memorial for "victims of Stalinism" because such general language include fascists, I tend to agree that she has a point, and it does matter to debate history. But, yet again, there is too much looking backward - if you want to save communism as a progressive ideology, stop that.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Wed Jul 1st, 2009 at 12:23:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"I may agree with JD if he means stuff like wanting to whitewash Egon Krenz or the Berlin Wall."

That is exactly what I mean.  For example, Herr Röllig who gives tours at a former Stasi prison in Berlin:

"Röllig said the Left Party, which emerged from the communist party that ruled East Germany to become a major electoral force in both eastern and western Germany, even sharing power in the city-state government of Berlin, has been propagating a warped view of the past. Left Party officials including Bodo Ramelow, the regional party leader in the eastern state of Thuringia, are on record denying that East Germany was an "unjust state.""

That was from a Big Orange diary on torture that I wrote, maybe I should repost it here.

In anycase, these sentiments are not condusive to growing the party, in my humble opinion.

"Schiller sprach zu Goethe, Steck in dem Arsch die Flöte! Goethe sagte zu Schiller, Mein Arsch ist kein Triller!"

by Jeffersonian Democrat (rzg6f@virginia.edu) on Thu Jul 2nd, 2009 at 08:46:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Then again, just like your quote indicates, the problem there might not be ideologues like Sahra but the dinosaurs among the pramaticists -- especially as they are holding some power.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Thu Jul 2nd, 2009 at 10:31:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I guess we'll see

"Schiller sprach zu Goethe, Steck in dem Arsch die Flöte! Goethe sagte zu Schiller, Mein Arsch ist kein Triller!"
by Jeffersonian Democrat (rzg6f@virginia.edu) on Thu Jul 2nd, 2009 at 12:39:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
She is just too monolithic in her demagoguery and a little too hard-core for my taste.  I am one of the pragmatics which is why I like Ramelow, just I don't think ignoring or denying history is helpful.

There is political compromise and then there is political compromise.  I certainly feel that core party platform pillars should not be compromised otherwise the party loses its meaning, its soul if you will, and it becomes another SPD.  However, you have to work with others to get anything done.

I am more interested in appealing to more voters and seeing the party grow.  I don't think the hard left language appeals to the average Fritz on street.  What I think would me more effective is showing how left party platforms affect everyday life, work and family budget, etc.  I think it is better to take the platforms out of lofty slogans and instead approach it as what they can do for you and contrast them to, say, the FDP's platform.  That's kinda my practical philosophy as well, not just with other parties but what we can offer the man in the street.  Yet again, that doesn't mean compromise on core principles and beliefs.

lol, I am certainly more of a Frankfurt School type, but defer to them and Zizek as they are way smarter than I.

"Schiller sprach zu Goethe, Steck in dem Arsch die Flöte! Goethe sagte zu Schiller, Mein Arsch ist kein Triller!"

by Jeffersonian Democrat (rzg6f@virginia.edu) on Thu Jul 2nd, 2009 at 05:00:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]


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