Reviewing the retirement age

by In Wales
Tue Jul 14th, 2009 at 05:49:05 AM EST

One resounding disappointment with the UK's Equality Bill has been the retention of the default retirement age of 65. (Arguably) legal under EU legislation but deeply unpopular, employers can make an employee retire at 65 even if that person wishes to carry on working. Individuals have a right to request to carry on working past 65 but the employer can refuse that and does not even need to give a reason.

Discrimination on the grounds of age is legal and easy.

The Government pledged to review this after a number of years but the good news is that this review has been brought forward.

Ministers had previously pledged to look again at the measure in 2011, but it will now be held next year to respond to "changing demographic and economic circumstances."

Pensions minister Angela Eagle said most people retired before 65, but 1.3 million chose to work beyond state pension age and many more said they would work past 65 if their employer permitted it.

The minister said it was time to look again at the default retirement age: "Some people prefer to take early retirement, others prefer to keep working. We want to give older people flexible retirement options.

"The government is responding to the changed economic landscape. The different circumstances today - for businesses, and for individuals coming up to retirement - suggest that an earlier review is appropriate.


I wonder why the Government suddenly sees the business case for retaining older, experienced workers now, despite all these arguments having been made ever since the 2006 Age Regulations were introduced. There have been plenty of legal challenges regarding the legality of the default retirement age under EU law but so far these challenges have not been successful in forcing a reversal of this section of the regulations.

TUC general secretary Brendan Barber welcomed the announcement. He said: "It cannot be right that an employer can sack someone simply for being too old. Employees should have choice – neither forced by employers to give up work, nor forced by inadequate pensions into working longer than they should.

"A key challenge as we live and stay active longer is developing the right kind of jobs, support and training for older workers."

Older workers make a huge contribution to the economy and should have the option to carry on working in a way that suits them, if they wish. It seems arbitrary and unfair to slap a default retirement age onto people who want to or need to keep working.

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Do other countries force workers to retire at a default age or is it easy to keep working?

The default retirement age is often used to get rid of people who are not performing adequately, rather than trying to address the performance issue directly. But this also means that many talented and experienced older workers are forced out too.

Assumptions and myths about older people are rife in creating discriminatory attitudes.  As such, we often find that older workers are not given the same access to training opportunities, which reduces the ability to keep skills up to date and causes further disadvantage when employers are looking to 'lose' staff.

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 14th, 2009 at 05:53:48 AM EST
Do other countries force workers to retire at a default age or is it easy to keep working?

I think it was a pretty widespread practice across Europe, with the explicit Social Democratic aim to push down joblessness upon entering the workforce.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Jul 14th, 2009 at 06:13:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So many assumptions or 'principles' underpinning 'full employment' are irrelevant and outdated now.

What would it do to stats collection and measurement of employment figures if 65 was no longer a default retirement age?  

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 14th, 2009 at 06:40:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Upon checking both Hungarian and German laws, maybe it is not so widespread and old.

In both countries, there are age limits for specific jobs, but not general age limits. In Germany, a forced retirement was introduced for jobless old people only with Harz IV, though there was lack of jobless support for retirement age persons earlier.

I found that there are such laws in Spain, and that there was a case at the European Court when the Court approved it:

Age law fight will go on, says charity | This is Money

Europe's highest court, the European Court of Justice, ruled that European Union countries can force people to retire at 65 to make room for younger workers, without violating a European Union directive barring age discrimination.

The court, which sits in Luxembourg, said it 'does not appear unreasonable' for a country to require compulsory retirement at a particular age, adding that forced retirement 'may be appropriate and necessary' to promote 'full employment by facilitating access to the labour market'.

It ruled in the case of a Spanish man, Felix Palacios de la Villa, employed as a manager by a retailer. He was forced to retire in 2005 because he had reached the age of 65.

(The full verdict is here.)

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Jul 14th, 2009 at 06:41:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hmmm.

What about older workers who wish to go part time?  It could create those highly sought after part time vacancies at higher levels in an organisation for women with children who wish to work part time or as a job share in positions that aren't below their skills and qualification level.  Thus reducing the pay and career penalty for women who have children. And older workers who need/want to keep working and have the skills and experience that is useful for an organisation, would still be able to contribute.  

I understand the need to get younger workers into the workforce too, but slashing older workers out won't do much good for that.

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 14th, 2009 at 06:50:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
...however, there was another case at the Court:

EUobserver / EU court accepts forced retirement due to age

The European Court issued its opinion after considering a case first brought before the British High Court by Age Concern England, a charity working for the well-being of older people, which argued that a British law allowing an employer to sack somebody because they reached the legal age of retirement - 65 years - was discriminatory.

"National legislation may provide, in a general manner, that this kind of difference of treatment on grounds of age is justified if it is a proportionate means to achieve a legitimate social policy objective related to employment policy, the labour market or vocational training," the ECJ ruled.

It said that "by their public interest nature," certain social policy objectives are "legitimate" and "distinguishable from purely individual reasons particular to the employer's situation, such as cost reduction or improving competitiveness."

The ECJ left it to the UK courts, however, to decide whether the UK legislation "reflects such a legitimate aim and ... whether the means chosen were appropriate and necessary to achieve it."

Age Concern saw the positives:

We're fighting on to scrap forced retirement say Age Concern and Help the Aged (05.03.09) | Age Concern England

European judges confirmed this morning that the UK government has to overcome a high hurdle to justify forced retirement and so will struggle to show that its national default retirement age of 65 satisfies European Union age discrimination rules when the case returns to the British courts.

Age Concern and Help the Aged have called on the UK Government to scrap the default retirement age immediately, by-passing the need to return the case to the High Court which would cause further delay to the right to work past 65 being clarified in law.

...

The ECJ addressed the issue of mandatory retirement in the Spanish case of Felix Palacios de la Villa v Cortefiel Servicios SA in 2007. In that case, which concerned mandatory retirement ages in collective agreements, the ECJ decided that the Spanish law could be justified. There were a number of significant differences between the facts and context of the Spanish and UK cases which meant that the outcome of the Age Concern case could not be predicted as a result of that decision. However, the questions on national retirement ages and the scope of the Directive that were referred to the ECJ in the Age Concern case (Questions (i), (ii) and (iii) above) were answered by the ECJ in the Palacios case In Age Concern's favour. It was decided that laws allowing mandatory retirement do fall within the scope of the Directive, and that any such law must therefore meet the justification test.



*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Tue Jul 14th, 2009 at 06:51:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This is one of the cases I was thinking of, that has challenged UK legislation.  I'm not saying it doesn't exist but I have not seen any comprehensive justification of the UK default retirement age given anywhere.

Ad astra per aspera
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 14th, 2009 at 07:02:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I wonder why the Government suddenly sees the business case for retaining older, experienced workers now, despite all these arguments having been made ever since the 2006 Age Regulations were introduced.

I guess it must be a shift of attention from paying the bill for joblessness to paying the bill for retirements. It is paralleled by putting the brakes on early retirement for health reasons.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Jul 14th, 2009 at 06:10:06 AM EST
Making retirement facultative means stating working is possible after 65. The next thing to happen will be that the already low social minimum pensions will be lowered and certainly won't be raised because, well, if they want more money they can work.

No thanks.

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Tue Jul 14th, 2009 at 07:00:11 AM EST
the we have to do both/and.  Allow people to continue working, while assuring the "already low social minimum pensions" are raised to "civilized" levels.

Skennah Kowa
by Crazy Horse on Tue Jul 14th, 2009 at 07:04:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's not how things work the way our societies are set up. Low social minimums are already being lowered constantly.

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Tue Jul 14th, 2009 at 07:07:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And of course, pensions will become means tested, so any earned money will be removed from the pension entitlement, a percentage will stop claiming as they will now have to fill out complicated forms, and social pressure will be put on pensioners to work, as "Everyone knows, if you keep working, you live longer"

I'm tired of this backslapping, aint humanity great BS, we're a virus with shoes Bill Hicks
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Jul 14th, 2009 at 07:05:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Has to be part of a rejig of how we organise things: you can't change one part of the social contract in isolation.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 14th, 2009 at 07:06:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Exactly. Asking for a raise in the retirement age currently is an own goal for the unions.

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Tue Jul 14th, 2009 at 07:08:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This isn't just the unions.  Every organisation I know of that represents older people in the UK is part of this campaign.

Ad astra per aspera
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 14th, 2009 at 07:15:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's still an own goal.

The difference between wanting to keep working and having to keep working isn't as obvious as it might be, and will likely become even less obvious once this legislation passes.

It's standard Jobs™ rhetoric. The problem isn't the retirement age, it's the way that the concept of Jobs™ is used to frame the issue.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Jul 14th, 2009 at 07:42:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's evidenced with statements like this, also from Age Concern website:

New government figures out today show that unemployment of those over 50 is rising at more than double the rate of any other age group.1 Age Concern is warning that older workers are facing a dual blow of rising unemployment and forced retirement, which could make them amongst the biggest `job-cut casualties' of the forthcoming recession.

Older workers were disproportionately affected by job cuts in the last two recessions and today's figures show they look set to again be amongst the hardest hit groups as unemployment rises. Research from the charity shows this is a huge concern - half of workers aged 55+ are worried they are more at risk of losing their job because of their age and almost nine out of 10 people think it is harder for older jobseekers to get a job.

People shouldn't be forced to carry on working because they can't afford not to.  I agree that the framing of 'jobs' is an issue and one that isn't being addressed effectively in the way that the campaign for abolishing the default retirement age is being run.

But this review is being brought forward to look at the mandatory retirement age, people will argue for abolishing it, and the Government seems open to that but perhaps not for the right reasons.  There will be a consultation no doubt, so who would like to help me with a response to set out why and how 'jobs' are framed in the wrong way and put this forward within the context of the default retirement age?

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 14th, 2009 at 07:54:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'd concentrate on the pensions angle and less on the Jobs™ angle. What's needed is a push back on pensions provision - increased returns, decreased insecurity (because of random speculation), government reassurance that both public and private pensions are protected in the same way that we've seen banking speculation being back-stopped and protected.

Similarly, unemployment provision can be redesigned to be less punitive. Older people can be encouraged to use their skills for training and transition support, which would be a half-way house between their old jobs and retirement. They can be moved towards self-employment of various kinds.

And so on.

The point is that age discrimination, pensions provision, and voluntary extended working are all separate issues. So is skills loss, and so is the usual employer need to cut costs by hiring teenagers who work for pocket money.

You could reframe this with evidence that older employees provide a better overall return because they're more skilled, more effective, and more reliable. Getting rid of them is a false economy.

This isn't just rhetoric. Organisations have been destroyed by short-sighted skills loss.

It needs a packaged push-back, not a single-issue pushback.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Jul 14th, 2009 at 08:23:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'd concentrate on the pensions angle and less on the Jobs™ angle. What's needed is a push back on pensions provision

  1. increased returns

  2. decreased insecurity

  3. government reassurance that both public and private pensions are protected in the same way that we've seen banking speculation being back-stopped and protected.

In other words, better public pensions, paid for out of general revenue. In a market-based system, 1) and 2) are mutually exclusive, and 3) amounts to nothing better than privatising profits and socialising risk.

Provide decent public pensions. And if people then want to set aside more money (which should not be tax deductible, by the way, any more than buying ordinary securities should), then they get to carry the full risk that goes with that if they put it in anything that is riskier than German sovereign debt.

- Jake

Tory Bliar for president prison!

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Jul 14th, 2009 at 03:05:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The unions have mostly forgotten that a social contract exists.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 14th, 2009 at 07:15:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Not the case in Wales (or NI if I understand) where social partnership working between unions, business and the public sector is strong.

But the Welsh Assembly can't do anything on primary legislation such as this - nonetheless if genuine partnership working existed with the UK Government, we'd have much less to fear on matters like this.

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 14th, 2009 at 07:22:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As I know it, the social contract is f.e. one between generations.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Tue Jul 14th, 2009 at 07:25:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
as in the social contract that I give up some of my freedoms in order to receive basic protection and security from the state?

Ad astra per aspera
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 14th, 2009 at 07:36:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes;that would be one between the People and the State.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Tue Jul 14th, 2009 at 07:40:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I ask In Wales: is simply raising retirement age the demand? From the quoted text, it appears they call for a relativisation.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Tue Jul 14th, 2009 at 07:20:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Not sure what you mean by relativisation?

Ad astra per aspera
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 14th, 2009 at 08:15:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
demanding work from your relatives? ;)

I'm tired of this backslapping, aint humanity great BS, we're a virus with shoes Bill Hicks
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Jul 14th, 2009 at 08:21:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Less strict application -- not sure what other word to use, ("optional-isation?")

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Tue Jul 14th, 2009 at 08:38:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh I see. No they are not demanding the raising of the retirement age but for people to not be forced to retire if they want to keep working at 65 and above.

Ad astra per aspera
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 14th, 2009 at 08:42:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
(of course, the next step will be, "look, there are plenty of people working happily until 67 ! Let's all do that and raise the retirement age")

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Tue Jul 14th, 2009 at 08:45:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This isn't aiming to force people to keep working but providing people with the option to.  In the UK you can work and draw your state pension if you continue to work after 65.  Many people, especially women will fall into poverty if they retire due to having not clocked up enough years of paying national insurance or paying into a pension fund.  But I don't agree that people should be forced to work for this reason.

65 would still likely be the age at which people can retire but is it fair to force people to if they want to carry on working?  Not all people can work after 65 and it is also well evidenced that if people are made redundant after 50 they are extremely unlikely to ever regain employment.  Any Government trying to reduce the state pension on the grounds that people can carry on working after 65 would get a huge kicking, surely?

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 14th, 2009 at 07:12:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In the UK you can work and draw your state pension if you continue to work after 65.  Many people, especially women will fall into poverty if they retire due to having not clocked up enough years of paying national insurance or paying into a pension fund.

That's exactly what I'm pointing out : in France that possibility doesn't exist, and there's a social minima that any retiree can get and that is (barely) enough to remain out of poverty.

65 would still likely be the age at which people can retire but is it fair to force people to if they want to carry on working?

48 hours a week would still be the time at which people can punch out but is it fair to force people to if they want to carry on working ?

Any Government trying to reduce the state pension on the grounds that people can carry on working after 65 would get a huge kicking, surely?

Come on... Do you really believe that ?


Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Tue Jul 14th, 2009 at 07:20:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
(about that last point : the only part of the French population in which Sarkozy has a well established majority is those over 65, who are already retired and thus for example only see lowered taxes when the retirement age is being raised...)

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Tue Jul 14th, 2009 at 07:24:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Again, choice.  I don't believe that people should have to work 48 hours a week if they do work. Certainly not more.

Flexible working is hugely important and under utilised.  As I mention elsewhere, a more open minded approach to introducing part time working in higher level posts would provide better opportunities for women with children who wish to work part time (and disabled people, and older people or anyone with caring responsibilities), all groups who are disadvantaged by the current ethos on the labour market and employment.

And our Governments should get a good kicking if they tried to reduce the pension age - who are we electing?  What kind of a job are we (socialists generally) doing to let people gain power and keep on shafting every vulnerable section of society?

I did raise a query of why now does the Government see the case for removing the default retirement age and perhaps that is due to Peter Mandelson's eyes shining with pound signs as he figures out a new way to squeeze more work and money out of people.

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 14th, 2009 at 07:33:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
They should, but they won't. And even if they do, what difference will it make? No one votes on a single issue.

I think the mistake here is single-issue activism. The problem is that people are being forced to consider extended working because existing pension provision is too poor. The answer isn't extended working, it's better and more flexible pension provision.

People who will receive 30-50% pensions are going to be much less interested in extended working than people who will be forced into poverty even though they've been working since 18 or 21.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Jul 14th, 2009 at 07:47:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A basic thing to always remember, as Coluche said, is that people don't need work, they need money.

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Tue Jul 14th, 2009 at 07:53:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A basic thing to always remember, as Coluche said, is that people don't need work, they need money.

Which sounds clever but isn't, once you take into account the social functions that work fulfils for most people. Having a job is key to self-esteem for a lot of people, for a start. How many die within a couple of years of retirement because they no longer know what to do with themselves?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 14th, 2009 at 10:10:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's only a half truth, obviously. But the question right now was that of those people wanting to work because they didn't get a big enough pension.

As for the problems our societies so atomised that the only way to have social relationships (and socially recognised value) is through employment, well, that's one for another thread. Possibly a much more important ones.

However I looked recently at death age tables and didn't notice any uptick after retirement age - probability of death was rising exponentially from 20 to 70, and getting significant right around 55. Do people die a few years after retiring, or do we interpret deaths that happen right after retirement as caused by inactivity ?

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Tue Jul 14th, 2009 at 01:27:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"In the labour field, law creates freedom, its absence slavery".

If you give the possibility for some employees to work more that (35/48) hours a week, they will have to work more. Because their employers will force them. Because they'll lower their wages to the point they need the money. Because those that don't will be considered lazy. The same goes for the pension and retirement ages.

It seems you are over applying the discrimination framework : old age isn't the same thing as disability or maternity. Forcing young workers to pay for the pensions of the elderly should mean the possibility of constraints on pension earners.

Our governments should get a good kicking if they try to reduce minimum pensions - but currently they don't and they won't. So let's not give them ammunitions to make it easier for them. Unions have got to be realists, not idealists.

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Tue Jul 14th, 2009 at 07:51:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Old age isn't the same thing, but if people are fit enough and want to work, there is a case for using flexible working as a way of achieving that but my point was that flexible working has wider benefits anyway.  And that fits with the way that work and jobs are framed.  Why does the assumption exist that reduced hours, part time work and job shares can't be introduced for high level jobs? Why is there an expectation that people work themselves into the ground to be able to advance their career? Why is work-life balance not given enough priority?

Ad astra per aspera
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 14th, 2009 at 08:05:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You forget the labour supply aspect : there is a case for, and a case against allowing the over 65 in the labour force.

As long as careers are determined by the employer, and as long as careers are the only way to the higher paying jobs, the employer is going to require as much investment from the workers as possible, and will find people willing to give that investment. The employer doesn't give a damn about work-life balance. As long as he finds enough employees willing to give up their free time, flexible working time won't develop ; as long as the employer-employee relationship is one of subordination, it is the employer calling the shots.

To change that, you need to change the balance of power between employee*s* and employer*s*. As long as there is an oversupply of labour, the balance is in favour of the employers - compare with say Crazy Horse or Sven, who have very rare and sought after competencies and could easily negotiate terms of employment if they were to seek a permanent "job".

As long as there isn't full employment, increasing the labour supply is a bad idea and needs to be justified by gross discrimination - sex or ethnicity are gross, asking over 65 to leave the labour supply to get their pension isn't.

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Tue Jul 14th, 2009 at 08:41:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"in France that possibility doesn't exist"

Well, let's say you cannot be employed for more than a certain amount in a year without forfeiting your rights to pension.

But when I put my flat to rent, one of the candidates was a 60+ consultant. He had created a company (of which he was the sole shareholder and employee), that did not pay him much any salary, only dividends...
His pension alone was more than the salary of any of the other candidates (and more than the combined salaries of most couples)...

I don't like that. He's working full time, he should not get a full pension. So, the flat did not go to him, but to a couple of more limited resources. I figured that they would find it harder to find one.

"The womb that spawned that thing is fertile yet"

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Wed Jul 15th, 2009 at 08:12:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In Denmark, we have a handy little rule to cover precisely that kind of situation: If your company has only yourself as employee, your dividends count as income.

Of course, the distinction between dividends and other income is silly to begin with...

- Jake

Tory Bliar for president prison!

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Thu Jul 16th, 2009 at 10:55:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Another trick is to raise retirement age, and then have people who want to retire at the same age do so for a lowered pension.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Tue Jul 14th, 2009 at 07:13:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Retirement age and the age at which you qualify for the state pension are two different things in the UK.

Ad astra per aspera
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 14th, 2009 at 07:19:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Could you define both?

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Tue Jul 14th, 2009 at 07:20:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
State pension age is 60 for women, 65 for men. This is when people can draw their state pension (although if they also have private pensions when they begin to draw this is dependent on the terms of that pension).

Default retirement age is 65 for men and women afaik.


Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 14th, 2009 at 07:46:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks. I was also curious what these two entail. Does "default retirement age" apply solely to forced retirement, or other things too?

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Tue Jul 14th, 2009 at 07:55:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm 60, working for myself, and am in constant fear that when i reach 65, i'll fire myself.

Can't imagine how painful that might be if the decision was made by someone else against my will.

Skennah Kowa

by Crazy Horse on Tue Jul 14th, 2009 at 07:02:17 AM EST
well I'd watch out for that boss, if he's keeping you in that sort of stress, id form a union and demand my rights, he sounds like a right git ;)

I'm tired of this backslapping, aint humanity great BS, we're a virus with shoes Bill Hicks
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Jul 14th, 2009 at 07:06:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Employment, rather than self employment, is already something that implies giving up part of one's will. (Something often forgotten on ET were most people are self-employed and/or have jobs they like and with quite a bit of freedom)

It's not like companies willing to fire someone that reaches an older age will be out of ways to make the employee's life hell by moving him around.

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Tue Jul 14th, 2009 at 07:11:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I must admit that i commented a bit fascitiously (sp?) above, and am grateful for the discussion preceeding to enlighten me.

Skennah Kowa
by Crazy Horse on Tue Jul 14th, 2009 at 08:38:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I decided to retire last year at 65, guessing that hard times for my company (I am the only employee) might be ahead in the global economy. For decades I've never known if I could pay the company bills each month, but with some bigger projects meaning I could breathe easy for a few months ahead. (Which I usually used for self-initiated speculative projects). Taking the pension meant that my basic survival needs were taken care of, and the company, which I still run at full tilt, would thus have fewer costs.

I still pay myself a nominal salary to cover the benefits I take out of the company - but no cash. I also have income through my agent for voiceovers and acting, and copyright income from music. These 'incomes' are added to my pension rate and I pay tax on the whole lot.

My pension is based on earnings since 1974 with a private but mandatory insurer. I have been paying into the pension pot since I started working in Finland.

As it happened, thanks to Finland's commitment to FDI, the last 8 months have been quite busy, so I have built up some reserves to do a couple of speculative projects that have been hanging around for a couple of years.

I could never stop working - unless health intervened - I enjoy what I do too much. But my accountant ran some figures and suggested that there was a better solution, especially since my youngest daughter will also get 10% of the shares as a non-taxable gift in November when she's 18.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Jul 14th, 2009 at 07:51:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You don't happen to consult for Wells Fargo, do you?

WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!
by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Tue Jul 14th, 2009 at 08:59:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
More generally : the secular trend is for working length to decrease. Those having nice, well paying and interesting positions will be all too happy to keep them (and barring younger people from getting them). Those that really want to do their jobs (say, researchers) can do them for free while they collect their pensions.

A little bit of knowing how the market work can help, too : any increase of labor supply, i.e. people being able to work longer, means lousier bargaining position for those workers. If you want to get better working conditions, something has got to give in order to reduce the labor supply.

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Tue Jul 14th, 2009 at 07:05:31 AM EST
I have to agree.
by paving on Tue Jul 14th, 2009 at 01:43:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Discrimination on the grounds of age is legal and easy.

Yeah, but it's the 40-65 bracket suffering it, not the over 65s, as a rule.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 14th, 2009 at 07:55:18 AM EST
Not to mention the under-16s.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 14th, 2009 at 07:57:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And under 18s and under 21s thanks to the disparity in the national minimum wage, and with apprentice and training schemes.

There are three levels of minimum wage, and the rates from 1 October 2008 are:

£5.73 per hour for workers aged 22 years and older
A development rate of £4.77 per hour for workers aged 18-21 inclusive
£3.53 per hour for all workers under the age of 18, who are no longer of compulsory school age.



Ad astra per aspera
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 14th, 2009 at 08:12:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]


Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by MarketTrustee on Tue Jul 14th, 2009 at 10:15:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
£3.53 per hour for all workers under the age of 18, who are no longer of compulsory school age.

Wow.  That's terrible.  I was making more than that -- about 30% more, actually -- when I was hired at my first job.  And I was still at compulsory school age.

And that was ten years (and a fair bit of inflation) ago.

WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!

by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Tue Jul 14th, 2009 at 11:25:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]


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