European Tribune - Community, Politics & Progress.

Hate crime: cell phones and arrests

by DoDo
Mon Aug 24th, 2009 at 05:08:08 AM EST

Earlier this month, I diaried the murder of a woman in a village that was the latest in a series of deadly attacks against Roma, happening over the last ten months and spread out all across Hungary.

In the early hours last Friday, police finally detained six people, putting four of them under arrest (as reported in the Salon). What is interesting beyond the fact is the Big Brother-ish method used to find them: analysing cell phone calls. Using a software borrowed from the FBI, police looked for cell phones used at the time and place of multiple attacks -- and there was such a cell phone in the last murder and another.

Police didn't reveal many details, but here is what I pieced together.

After analysing three dozen violent attacks against Roma, police identified nine as fitting into a series. These started in July 2008, and four of them led to deaths. (For a fifth deadly attack in-between, police arrested two brothers with the suspected motivation of a neighbourhood dispute over a dog.) The total casualty: 6 dead, 5 injured, 44 more persons were at danger in the 16 attacked homes. Weapons used: 11 Molotov cocktails and 63 cases of scattergun shots. This was terrorism.

One cell phone was used at the site of two of these nine attacks. That same cell phone was also frequently used in a night club in Debrecen, Hungary's second largest city in the East. That's where police then began to observe them.

According to rainbow press newspaper Blikk, police then found someone who was taken under the witness protection programme, and even showed the weapons cache at the night club.

According to police, they decided to strike when they got information about the group planning its next attack. Four men, all of them working as bouncers, were detained in the night club and the pub above it, and a fifth suspect at the home of his girlfriend. (A sixth, a woman, was apparently taken in as a witness on account of hiring these men.)

Some info on the suspects revealed by newspapers:

33 year old István K. was known by acquaintances as an extreme racist and Gypsie-hater, but they "didn't assume he'd be capable of murder" (heh). In 1995, he was a suspect in a case when a group of skinheads broke into Debrecen's synagogue and burned the Torah scrolls.
42 year old Árpád, K. the older brother of István K., is said to be the main suspect. He used to be the drummer of a heavy metal band, and is said to have been a liberal person years earlier (one who bought food for homeless people).
28 year old István Cs. was a soldier in Kosovo. (It's worth to note here that Hungarian police thought that the assassins must have included someone with professional training with firearms and organising, but FBI profilers who came to help disagreed. However, for now István Cs. seems to be suspected mainly for getting the weapons.)
István Cs. and the fourth, 30 year old Zsolt P., are said to have left the group after the first finished murder. According to a conflicting report, Zsolt P. left already after the very first (non-lethal) attack, while István Cs. took active part only as driver in the before-last murder.
One eyewitness said that one of the K. brothers wore a T-shirt with "Anti-Antiracism" written on it when arrested. Two of the arrested reportedly had prominently displayed Swastika tattoos.

The black Jeep and the weapons are said to have been identified, the plans of the next attack were found, and a DNA sample (István K.'s) matched, so police seems to have conclusive evidence. All four suspects are in denial, however.

Is this the end of the nightmare as the police speaker said? I'm not certain. There could be more accomplices or copycats (also see comments).

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Hate crime: cell phones and arrests | 52 comments (52 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

Seed comment (4.00 / 7)

Some words about 'public opinion'.

After the last murder on 3 August, things really boiled over. Drivers of black pickup trucks (like the one observed at the site of multiple attacks) were stopped at random by police, as well as ad-hoc 'civil guards' in Roma settlements. On the very night of the arrest, the car of one of these self-styled Civil Guards was shot at -- say those in the car; police thinks the read window was broken by some other object.

On TV, there were some reports interviewing drivers of black pickup trucks and jeeps, in which they complained about their new fears and harrassments (heh).

After the arrests, a right-wing tabloid saw fit to thematise the fears of the "death squad" members that now revenge will be taken on their families...

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Mon Aug 24th, 2009 at 05:12:14 AM EST

Re: Hate crime: cell phones and arrests (4.00 / 3)

33 year old K. István ... In 1995, he was a suspect in a case when of a group of skinheads broke into Debrecen's synagogue and burned the Torah scrolls.

This is a side story, but warrants coverage as it was a big scandal at the time. The perpetrators were members of a skinhead group with a legal civic association named "Eastern Frontline Comradeship Asssociation" -- named after a militia of the WWII-time Hungarian Nazi allies, the Arrowcrossers.

But the real scandal was that this group's postal address was in the local party headquarters of the Smallholders' Party (a rough-populist party part of the 1990-1994 and 1998-2002 governments that disintegrated since). The local party head was then fired; but he told that he 'took the boys in' at the behest of the party leadership two years earlier, who hoped that they'd be good campaign workers in the 1994 elections...

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Mon Aug 24th, 2009 at 05:19:52 AM EST

Re: Hate crime: cell phones and arrests (4.00 / 2)

You don't have to use the phone for the system to know where it is. If it's turned on, it's constantly communicating to the cell system--in case you get an incoming call...

by asdf on Mon Aug 24th, 2009 at 11:40:31 PM EST

Re: Hate crime: cell phones and arrests (none / 0)

Yep. But, if that data can be used, that would only imply an even more Big Brother-ish situation, it would mean that the cell phone companies store even more of people's data, allowing police to track practically everyone's movements.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Aug 25th, 2009 at 01:23:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hate crime: cell phones and arrests (4.00 / 3)

Yes.

A local murder hunt in 2005 ended when the perpetrator (who had booked into a hotel in Scotland under a false name), killed himself.

However, the police were looking for him, specifically, almost immediately-well before his victim's body was even found, and the implication at the time was that they'd tracked the victim's mobile phone (one of the tragedies of the case was that she was able to text for help, but the texts were delayed by New Year's Eve overload) and they knew exactly who else's mobile phone had been near her at the time.

by Sassafras on Tue Aug 25th, 2009 at 05:24:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hate crime: cell phones and arrests (none / 0)

Interesting, but, for the key point:

they knew exactly who else's mobile phone had been near her at the time.

Could you cite a source for that part of the story? From the article you link, it seems only the victim's phone that was tracked (that's a use of non-long-term-archived data for one specific phone), and a match with the murderers' movements was first established on the basis of being between two locations of the murderer captured on CCTV. Furthermore,

It is understood the Army tipped off police after Atkinson was declared absent without leave when he failed to return to his base at Waterbeach barracks, near Cambridge, on January 4.

Then, they also found:

However military policemen checked his records and discovered his sinister past. Checks on his mobile phone records confirmed that Sally had been in his car at the time of her disappearance.

...which is the closest to what you say, but it's not clear if centrally collected data or the phone's own memory was used in this post-facto check, and whether it was constant tracking or just calls made.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Aug 25th, 2009 at 06:52:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hate crime: cell phones and arrests (none / 1)

It would depend which network they were on, if the killer and the victim were on the same network, then you'd have almost identical times of handover from cell to cell as they travelled together, depending on how far they travelled, it could be fairly obvious within a few minutes that those two were travelling together. without some meter by meter big brother style analysis

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Aug 25th, 2009 at 08:41:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hate crime: cell phones and arrests (4.00 / 3)

You don't have to use the phone for the system to know where it is. If it's turned on, it's constantly communicating to the cell system--in case you get an incoming call...

Interesting. What laws are there currently in Europe that would protect this kind of private information ? I wonder.

For how long the state may know where I have been 24/7 for what length of time ?
Is the phone company allowed to use this information for its own purposes, is it allowed to resell it, and for how long ?

10 years down the line, will this information still be available ?

by balbuz on Tue Aug 25th, 2009 at 04:21:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hate crime: cell phones and arrests (none / 1)

It would be interesting to look this up (myself I don't know where to begin to look). However, I do suspect that currently, this information is NOT stored, at least in Hungary. (In another prominent crime case a few years ago, a cell phone location was crucial to an alibi claim, but the whole legal battle concerned the location only at the time of a call.) I imagine storing the full real-time information would also take up a helluva' lot of space (and CPU time).

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Aug 25th, 2009 at 04:37:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hate crime: cell phones and arrests (4.00 / 2)

Ah, found it. It's covered by the EU's data retention law from 2006 (now I recall the debate about it).

EUR-Lex - 32006L0024 - EN

Article 5
Categories of data to be retained
1. Member States shall ensure that the following categories of data are retained under this Directive:
(a) data necessary to trace and identify the source of a communication:
(1) concerning fixed network telephony and mobile telephony:
(i) the calling telephone number;
(ii) the name and address of the subscriber or registered user;
(2) concerning Internet access, Internet e-mail and Internet telephony:
(i) the user ID(s) allocated;
(ii) the user ID and telephone number allocated to any communication entering the public telephone network;
(iii) the name and address of the subscriber or registered user to whom an Internet Protocol (IP) address, user ID or telephone number was allocated at the time of the communication;
(b) data necessary to identify the destination of a communication:
(1) concerning fixed network telephony and mobile telephony:
(i) the number(s) dialled (the telephone number(s) called), and, in cases involving supplementary services such as call forwarding or call transfer, the number or numbers to which the call is routed;
(ii) the name(s) and address(es) of the subscriber(s) or registered user(s);
(2) concerning Internet e-mail and Internet telephony:
(i) the user ID or telephone number of the intended recipient(s) of an Internet telephony call;
(ii) the name(s) and address(es) of the subscriber(s) or registered user(s) and user ID of the intended recipient of the communication;
(c) data necessary to identify the date, time and duration of a communication:
(1) concerning fixed network telephony and mobile telephony, the date and time of the start and end of the communication;
(2) concerning Internet access, Internet e-mail and Internet telephony:
(i) the date and time of the log-in and log-off of the Internet access service, based on a certain time zone, together with the IP address, whether dynamic or static, allocated by the Internet access service provider to a communication, and the user ID of the subscriber or registered user;
(ii) the date and time of the log-in and log-off of the Internet e-mail service or Internet telephony service, based on a certain time zone;
(d) data necessary to identify the type of communication:
(1) concerning fixed network telephony and mobile telephony: the telephone service used;
(2) concerning Internet e-mail and Internet telephony: the Internet service used;
(e) data necessary to identify users' communication equipment or what purports to be their equipment:
(1) concerning fixed network telephony, the calling and called telephone numbers;
(2) concerning mobile telephony:
(i) the calling and called telephone numbers;
(ii) the International Mobile Subscriber Identity (IMSI) of the calling party;
(iii) the International Mobile Equipment Identity (IMEI) of the calling party;
(iv) the IMSI of the called party;
(v) the IMEI of the called party;
(vi) in the case of pre-paid anonymous services, the date and time of the initial activation of the service and the location label (Cell ID) from which the service was activated;
(3) concerning Internet access, Internet e-mail and Internet telephony:
(i) the calling telephone number for dial-up access;
(ii) the digital subscriber line (DSL) or other end point of the originator of the communication;
(f) data necessary to identify the location of mobile communication equipment:
(1) the location label (Cell ID) at the start of the communication;
(2) data identifying the geographic location of cells by reference to their location labels (Cell ID) during the period for which communications data are retained.
2. No data revealing the content of the communication may be retained pursuant to this Directive.
Article 6
Periods of retention
Member States shall ensure that the categories of data specified in Article 5 are retained for periods of not less than six months and not more than two years from the date of the communication.
...
Article 15
Transposition

Member States shall bring into force the laws, regulations and administrative provisions necessary to comply with this Directive by no later than 15 September 2007. They shall forthwith inform the Commission thereof. When Member States adopt those measures, they shall contain a reference to this Directive or shall be accompanied by such reference on the occasion of their official publication. The methods of making such reference shall be laid down by Member States.

Member States shall communicate to the Commission the text of the main provisions of national law which they adopt in the field covered by this Directive.

Until 15 March 2009, each Member State may postpone application of this Directive to the retention of communications data relating to Internet Access, Internet telephony and Internet e-mail. Any Member State that intends to make use of this paragraph shall, upon adoption of this Directive, notify the Council and the Commission to that effect by way of a declaration. The declaration shall be published in the Official Journal of the European Union.

I'm not sure I understand Article 5, point 1. (f) (2): is that a requirement to store real-time location data as a time progression, or only the set of locations (location labels) the cell phone was in during the six months?

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Aug 25th, 2009 at 04:52:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hate crime: cell phones and arrests (none / 1)

I note that Article 5, 1. (f) changed relative to the draft significantly:

f) Data necessary to identify the location of mobile communication equipment:
(1) The location label (Cell ID) at the start and end of the communication;
(2) Data mapping between Cell IDs and their geographical location at the
start and end of the communication.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Aug 25th, 2009 at 05:00:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hate crime: cell phones and arrests (none / 1)

Ah, me stupid, I got the meaning of Article 5, point 1. (f) (2) now... It's not about cell phones, but the cells of the network. So no, EU regulation doesn't require the retention of data on the location of cell phones at times other than making a call (and in fact weakened the requirement vs. the draft by only requesting the location data at the time of the start of the call).

With some searching, I found that German homologised legislation and practice ("Funkzellenabfrage") is in line with this interpretation -- e.g. police looks only for cell phones making/receiving calls.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Aug 25th, 2009 at 06:21:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hate crime: cell phones and arrests (none / 1)

DoDo:

So no, EU regulation doesn't require the retention of data on the location of cell phones at times other than making a call

But as I understand it, it allows for national legislation to be more extensive.

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Wed Aug 26th, 2009 at 05:30:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

The laws don't matter. The tech exists (none / 1)

The laws don't matter: The technology exists: It will be used.

At this point, in the US, there is barely a pretense of not datamining--and the cellphone companies are fully co-operative.

Of course, it is easy for the state to create a cover story, if one is needed for public consumption.

The only hitch remaining is at the trial itself--where the presiding judge may actually refuse to let inadmissable evidence be a admitted. In the US that barrier is being overcome as well.

If you value privacy and don't wish to provide the state with 24/7 evidence against you--whether you are doing anything or not--you will not use these devices.

(You might try taking the battery out when not making calls.)

The Fates are kind.

by Gaianne on Tue Aug 25th, 2009 at 05:17:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The laws don't matter. The tech exists (4.00 / 2)

Gaianne:

The laws don't matter: The technology exists: It will be used.

I disagree somewhat.

In Sweden today - the data retention directive not being implemented - companies are forbidden to store more then what is needed for bills and the technical needs of the system. The technical needs can be stretched, and to my knowledge no communications company has been punished for doing so. But in recent years there has been quite a debate on privacy - mainly regarding internet communication - which has resulted in some companies marketing themselves but making sure that no records are needed for bills (ie flat rate), and over-writing all data as soon as it has been delivered.

Of course non of this would have happened without the debate, which would not have happened without a rather large group of concerned citizens. And the implementation of the data retention directive is looming, but that just goes to show that the law does matter. (As long as you have enough concerned citizens and enough competition in relevant sectors and so on.)

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Wed Aug 26th, 2009 at 05:44:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The laws don't matter. The tech exists (none / 1)

You could just turn it off, which disconnects it from the cell grid. If you fear this is insufficient, an alternative to removal of the battery would be to place the cell phone in a small metal box in your glove box or in your briefcase or wrap it in tinfoil. If the phone is turned off, it would have to be equipped with an inductive loop receiver and be within range of an inductive loop transmitter to be able to transpond with the cell network. Think RFID badges.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer at eurotrib.com) on Wed Aug 26th, 2009 at 01:44:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You cannot merely turn it off because (none / 1)

when these devices are "off" they are actually still on: They are still communicating your location to the cell network.

All "off" means is that calls are refused to be sent instead to voicemail. By the way, remote hacking software already exists, and government agencies do use it to access your phone without letting you know.

A faraday cage might work, as you imply. Someone should try it.

The Fates are kind.

by Gaianne on Thu Aug 27th, 2009 at 11:35:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You cannot merely turn it off because (none / 0)

When they are powered down? I doubt it.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Fri Aug 28th, 2009 at 01:29:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

If you can actually go to zero power (none / 1)

your phones are not like the cell phones here.

The Fates are kind.

by Gaianne on Fri Aug 28th, 2009 at 02:56:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If you can actually go to zero power (none / 0)

Could you cite a source? Because if you are right, then the airline regulations to turn off cell phones during a flight don't amount to nothing.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Fri Aug 28th, 2009 at 03:08:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If you can actually go to zero power (none / 0)

They're BS.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Aug 28th, 2009 at 04:12:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If you can actually go to zero power (none / 0)

What are BS?

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Fri Aug 28th, 2009 at 04:59:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If you can actually go to zero power (none / 0)

the airline regulations to turn off cell phones during a flight

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Aug 28th, 2009 at 05:05:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If you can actually go to zero power (none / 0)

Why? The risk may be over-stated, but cell phones can definitely produce noise signals in other equipment. I experienced it myself; a GPRS internet messing with the signals of a wireless headphone for a TV in the next room.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Fri Aug 28th, 2009 at 05:12:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If you can actually go to zero power (4.00 / 2)

One would hope that the airplanes have better shielding - if not, surely the terrorists could figure out a way to make use of this.

What about laptops? You are never asked to turn off your WiFi and Bluetooth. Do they not transmit signals when not in use, or do the airlines realize that it is all BS and not bother?

by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Fri Aug 28th, 2009 at 06:37:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If you can actually go to zero power (none / 0)

Mobile phones peak at about 2 watts, wifi at about 1/10 of that (If you're using standard laptop Wifi) but if it is a problem, you'd probably be better off with a mobile phone jammer, unless it is the digital signal that atually causes the problem)

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri Aug 28th, 2009 at 06:56:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If you can actually go to zero power (4.00 / 2)

With some search yesterday, I found

some airlines DO demand that laptops and mpeg players be turned off too;
one supposed way to cause problem is that the shieldings age,
the specific disturbance that seems to have nmost evidence is not against flight electronics directly, but causing the on-board GPS to lose the signal (one source wrote that this is most likely when a GMS and a CDMA cell phone are active simultaneously);
there is another problem not related to flight safety, that of the phone communicating with too many Earth-based cell towers, thus an airplane-full of cell phones could block networks;
there are some on-board systems to neutralise the above problems (but I haven't researched further how they work).

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Sat Aug 29th, 2009 at 04:56:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

nah (4.00 / 3)

the only reason airlines ask to switch mobile phones off is that they create havoc in the mobile phone company networks below the plane as several dozen phones try to jump from base station to base station at an increasing speed...

Nothing to do with the plane. If there was the slightest risk of any kind of interference, you can bet that airlines would make sure on every flight that all phones were really switched off, as a basic security procedure.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sat Aug 29th, 2009 at 05:29:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You cannot merely turn it off because (none / 1)

Mobile phones, the stealth ID card, bug and tracking device in your pocket | WOMBLES

Cell phones owned by two alleged mobsters, John Ardito and his attorney Peter Peluso, were used by the FBI to listen in on nearby conversations.
The news that the FBI had been remotely activating mobile phones as eaves dropping devices confirms what many activists have been saying for years.
"A cellular telephone can be turned into a microphone and transmitter for the purpose of listening to conversations in the vicinity of the phone. This is done by transmitting to the cell phone a maintenance command on the control channel. This command places the cellular telephone in the 'diagnostic mode.' When this is done, conversations in the immediate area of the telephone can be monitored over the voice channel." - National Reconnaissance Organization newsletter,1997.
As long as I can remember there has been a kind of unspoken rule among activists about taking batteries out of mobile phones during meetings to prevent bugging - along with occasional arguments about it being paranoid. While it has long been know to be a theoretical possibility, the mafia court case confirms it is actually a practical technique and is being used.

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri Aug 28th, 2009 at 06:48:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You cannot merely turn it off because (none / 0)

Can that be done while the phone is off?

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Aug 28th, 2009 at 06:52:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You cannot merely turn it off because (none / 1)

Apparently yes, unless the battery is out, by the sounds of it, off is actually standby. I remember hearing about the case before, and even though they had their phones off, the mobsters involved had noticed that their phone batteries were running out much quicker than they expected.

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri Aug 28th, 2009 at 06:59:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You cannot merely turn it off because (none / 0)

ceebs:

off is actually standby

Well, taking out the battery does wipe out the phone's memory and things like date/time settings. So that makes sense.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Aug 28th, 2009 at 07:05:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You cannot merely turn it off because (none / 0)

With the data that it is possible to gain from what cell a person is in/calls they may make I cant see any reason why this story might be intentionally leaked to get people to disable their phones.

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri Aug 28th, 2009 at 07:34:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You cannot merely turn it off because (none / 0)

Only on older phones. Newer phones have a separate boot battery, like the BIOS in your computer.

(And a couple of megabytes of hard drive storage, which - unlike RAM - does not need continuous battery power.)

- Jake

"Terraforming your own planet to make it uninhabitable hardly counts as epic win." - ThatBritGuy

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Fri Aug 28th, 2009 at 02:03:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You cannot merely turn it off because (none / 0)

From your quote, it is not clear that the mobsters' phones were off, only that activists are paranoid :-)

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Sat Aug 29th, 2009 at 04:58:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You cannot merely turn it off because (none / 1)

Ah was just a quick search to confirm for people that the incident actually occurred

Perhaps this is a better article, from 2006

Schneier on Security: Remotely Eavesdropping on Cell Phone Microphones

I give a talk called "The Future of Privacy," where I talk about current and future technological developments that erode our privacy. One of the things I talk about is auditory eavesdropping, and I hypothesize that a cell phone microphone could be turned on surreptitiously and remotely.
I never had any actual evidence one way or the other, but the technique has surfaced in an organized crime prosecution:

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Aug 29th, 2009 at 06:35:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You cannot merely turn it off because (none / 1)

You cannot merely turn it off because when these devices are "off" they are actually still on: They are still communicating your location to the cell network.

No, they don't.

If you take your phone into a poor- or no-reception area (such as a Faraday cage) but keep it on the network, you will notice that it drains its battery at a ridiculous rate. That is because it attempts to ping the network, fails and then repeats the ping request at higher signal strength, thus eating up the battery.

If you turn off the phone, this battery drawdown does not occur. Q.e.d.

This is one reason that most respectably recent models come with an "off grid" option, so you can keep them around for their function as pocket watch, calender, etc. without running down their battery by attempting to ping a network that isn't there.

That being said, modern mobile phones have fairly powerful hardware and constant exposure to foreign data streams. So if the bad guys really want to use your cell phone to spy on you, they can hack it. I'd bet they can even do it with off-the-shelf software. And I would not be terribly surprised if they could make it look like it was turned off even when it wasn't (once they get a rootkit in, they own the I/O interfaces - very much including the graphics drivers). Being able to boot it from powered-down status strikes me as implausible, however.

Oh, and did I mention that the cell phone industry has all the software security consciousness of a slightly concussed kitten?

On the positive side, once the smartphones become powerful enough (and mini-laptops small enough), phones'll start using off-the-shelf mini-laptop operating systems. And then we're back with an industry that actually has experience with and awareness of information security issues...

- Jake

"Terraforming your own planet to make it uninhabitable hardly counts as epic win." - ThatBritGuy

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Fri Aug 28th, 2009 at 02:34:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You cannot merely turn it off because (none / 0)

If you turn off the phone, this battery drawdown does not occur. Q.e.d.

Yep.

So if the bad guys really want to use your cell phone to spy on you, they can hack it.

One cheap-o method I read about when Googling two days ago is to send invisible text messages: that way, already the data the telcom companies have to record will provide tracking data with much better time resolution.

Oh, and did I mention that the cell phone industry has all the software security consciousness of a slightly concussed kitten?

On the other hand, this becomes more of an issue only if the companies are forced to retain data longer (which by themselves they are reluctant to do). So the requirements of EU legislation are crucial here.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Sat Aug 29th, 2009 at 05:08:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You cannot merely turn it off because (none / 0)

The phone has a radio transmitter and a fully functional computer anno ca. 1990. There is nothing in principle that prevents a rootkit from transmitting data to third parties outside the phone net.

Would be a pain to set up the receiver stations, though.

- Jake

"Terraforming your own planet to make it uninhabitable hardly counts as epic win." - ThatBritGuy

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sat Aug 29th, 2009 at 07:21:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Of computer illiterate computer experts (4.00 / 2)

Oh, I forgot to add this other aside. There is another far-right terror group in custody here, but that's a different story.

There is a group which I preferred to call the "idiots' revolution branch of the Hungarian far-right" in my diaries over the past three years. I mean the people who staged the riots (the first already in 2002, then the more well-known ones from 2006 after the leak of the then PMs "I lied!" speech). They dreamt of being revolutionaries, but a few hundred football hooligans and university students burning rubbish containers is a little different from what went on in 1956...

Anyhow, now one of their leaders and 10 other people are under arrest for a string of attacks comitted in the name of a so-called "Arrows of Hungarians National Liberation Army".

These attacks started shortly after the 2006 autumn riots. None of them included murder: mostly small bombs and Molotov cocktails at the homes of Soclialist and liberal politicians, machine-gunning the police headquarters (I reported), beating up an ex-Socialist who joined the center-right (see more). A bombmaker was caught in 2007 already, but police bungled that, the Idiots' Revolution got rather cocky about it (see example during a visit by Schröder). More arrests followed only in recent months. But bungling continued...

It happened that police and the interior minister presented a video of a big test explosion in a field, taken from the computer of one of the arrested, as unshakeable evidence that the group was planning something bigger. However, media quickly found that it seems very much like the video of another event: an unrelated prank by a few foolish chemics students a few years ago...

Right-wing media and politics of course began to insinuate that the interior minister presented false evidence on purpose. However, the sad truth seems to be (especially after the continued insistence of police) that police experts never heard of downloading, and assumed that any wideo on a hard disc must have been made by the owner...

You can't make up this stuff.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Aug 25th, 2009 at 12:58:49 PM EST

Re: Hate crime: cell phones and arrests (4.00 / 2)

You can get a 30 day tracking history of you friend's phone here: http://www.accutracking.com/

So presumably at least 30 days of info is retained. It's really not that much data, when you think about it. How many bytes per cell ID, with all associated data, maybe 1000? How many customers in a city, maybe 1,000,000? How many cells does a typical user visit in a day, maybe 10? That's only 10,000,000,000 or 10 GB per day. So a single 300 GB disk could hold a month's worth of tracking info for a whole city...

by asdf on Tue Aug 25th, 2009 at 10:01:06 PM EST

Re: Hate crime: cell phones and arrests (none / 0)

I wasa rather clueless about the technology; I was thinking of location data as one generated all the time... not just when changing from one cell to another. However, in the EU, as shown above, companies aren't required to retain this data for months (as would have been necessary to trace the Roma killers).

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Wed Aug 26th, 2009 at 01:24:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hate crime: cell phones and arrests (none / 0)

http://www.accutracking.com/

That's based on cell phone installed GPS, using a software installed on the phone clandestinely, aint' it?

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Wed Aug 26th, 2009 at 01:26:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hate crime: cell phones and arrests (4.00 / 4)

The location of mobile phones without GPS can be crudely triangulated by the phone ID info from 3 towers, to within approx 200 metres. That info can also be processed down to 20 metres with 90% accuracy.

The phone has to be on, but doesn't need to be calling or receiving. The phone ID info ("I am here") is broadcast continuously and recognized by the nearest towers or nodes.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Wed Aug 26th, 2009 at 04:23:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hate crime: cell phones and arrests (none / 1)

That particular product does use a GPS in the phone, but the point is that the amount of information you have to store to do this is relatively small. Even if you wanted to record the location every 10 minutes, it would not really amount to that much data.

So the only question is whether the phone companies do it. My guess is that under normal conditions they don't bother, just because there's no point to it. This could change under several scenarios, one being if they figured out how to make money from it, and another being if they were politely asked to do so by a government agency...

From a technological viewpoint, there's nothing to it.

by asdf on Wed Aug 26th, 2009 at 09:42:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hate crime: cell phones and arrests (none / 1)

This could change under several scenarios, one being if they figured out how to make money from it

They certainly have thought about sending you location-correlated ads, à la Google. Has this been attempted ? Lots of cash to be generated.

by balbuz on Wed Aug 26th, 2009 at 12:25:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hate crime: cell phones and arrests (none / 1)

This is an available application for i-phones, blackberries, etc.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer at eurotrib.com) on Wed Aug 26th, 2009 at 01:47:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hate crime: cell phones and arrests (none / 1)

Well if you just record when people move cells, but once it is conceded that you do that, then you'd want to as an authoritarian change it to every ten minutes, or every minute. and take the data from the closest two or three to allow some level of triangulation. That pushes you to nearly 13,000 Gb (More in practical terms with RAID drives)

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri Aug 28th, 2009 at 08:05:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hate crime: cell phones and arrests (none / 0)

But if people don't move around much, the compression rate of an even moderately aggressive algorithm would be considerable. And the efficiency of compression would increase with better data resolution (because more data points would be similar), so required disc space scales slower than linearly with desired data resolution.

- Jake

"Terraforming your own planet to make it uninhabitable hardly counts as epic win." - ThatBritGuy

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Fri Aug 28th, 2009 at 02:44:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hate crime: cell phones and arrests (4.00 / 2)

At the risk of overloading this diary with yet another technological quibble:

European Tribune - Comments - Hate crime: cell phones and arrests

Using a software borrowed from the FBI, police looked for cell phones used at the time and place of multiple attacks

Pretty much any datamining application would do that. Most likely what they got from the US government was something even more ~~sinister~~ powerful:

Connecting the Dots -- Social Network Analysis of 9-11 Terror Network

Social Network Analysis [SNA] is a mathematical method for 'connecting the dots'. SNA allows us to map and measure complex, and sometimes covert, human groups and organizations.

Jesus died for somebody's sins but not mine - Patti Smith

by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Wed Aug 26th, 2009 at 04:24:52 AM EST

Re: Hate crime: cell phones and arrests (none / 1)

Pretty much any datamining application would do that.

All of which cost money and need experts (for experts also see above). Hungarian police has an agreement with the FBI, and the FBI's involvement was already public when their profilers were here.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Wed Aug 26th, 2009 at 04:27:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hate crime: cell phones and arrests (4.00 / 3)

Acxiom, a company in the U.S. that generates mailing lists for global customers, tracks social networking as part of their business. Every single electronic transaction you make is recorded in their giant database, and their whole business is based on sorting out the best prospects for a given product or service. You get a different set of junk mail than does your next-door neighbor--because you are a different age, have different hobbies, a different income and spending history--and because you interact with a different set of people.

This is not a secret.
http://www.acxiom.com/about_us/overview/Pages/Overview.aspx

by asdf on Wed Aug 26th, 2009 at 09:48:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Hate crime: cell phones and arrests | 52 comments (52 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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