The Meaning Of "Success"?

by afew
Tue Sep 22nd, 2009 at 08:56:09 AM EST

COMISAF Initial Assessment (Unclassified) -- Searchable Document - washingtonpost.com
I reject the myth advanced in the media that Afghanistan is a 'graveyard of empires' and that the U.S. and NATO effort is destined to fail. Afghans have never seen you as occupiers, even though this has been the major focus of the enemy's propaganda campaign. Unlike the Russians, who imposed a government with an alien ideology, you enabled us to write a democratic constitution and choose our own government. Unlike the Russians, who destroyed our country, you came to rebuild.

Abdul Rahim Wardak, Afghan Defence Minister, quoted by General Stanley A McChrystal in an assessment of the Afghan situation put in to US Defense Secretary Gates at the end of August and now made public.

McChrystal's assessment (summarized here in the Washington Post does straighten out a number of points about US and NATO (McChrystal commands both) operations in Afghanistan:

COMISAF Initial Assessment (Unclassified) -- Searchable Document - washingtonpost.com

As formidable as the threat may be, we make the problem harder. ISAF is a conventional force that is poorly configured for COIN, inexperienced in local languages and culture, and struggling with challenges inherent to coalition warfare. These intrinsic disadvantages are exacerbated by our current operational culture and how we operate.

Pre-occupied with protection of our own forces, we have operated in a manner that distances us -- physically and psychologically -- from the people we seek to protect. In addition, we run the risk of strategic defeat by pursuing tactical wins that cause civilian casualties or unnecessary collateral damage. The insurgents cannot defeat us militarily; but we can defeat ourselves.

...

Conventional wisdom is not sacred; security may not come from the barrel of a gun. Better force protection may be counterintuitive; it might come from less armor and less distance from the population.

...

the objective is the will of the people, our conventional warfare culture is part of the problem, the Afghans must ultimately defeat the insurgency, we cannot succeed without significantly improved unity of effort, and finally, that protecting the people means shielding them from all threats.

But how can foreign troops represent, or work towards, "the will of the people"? Above all when the categories they're invited to use place part of the population as "insurgents" and "our friends" as the Afghans? Are there not a whole load of other Afghans missing there?

Success and, even more often, mission failure, are mentioned often in this assessment. But there's not much of a "mission statement". What are the aims? There's this:

COMISAF Initial Assessment (Unclassified) -- Searchable Document - washingtonpost.com

NATO's Comprehensive Strategic Political Military Plan and President Obama's strategy to disrupt, dismantle, and eventually defeat al Qaeda and prevent their return to Afghanistan have laid out a clear path of what we must do. Stability in Afghanistan is an imperative; if the Afghan government falls to the Taliban - or has insufficient capability to counter transnational terrorists - Afghanistan could again become a base for terrorism, with obvious implications for regional stability.

How much of Afghanistan or the Afghans is al Qaeda? Does al Qaeda have no other bases? Doesn't the fact of regional instability make the military task in Afghanistan all the more difficult? I'm not sure I'd want to be a general, with a "clear path" like this one.

So what could success possibly be, for the US and NATO military effort in Afghanistan? And, more importantly, what might feel like "success" to the Afghans themselves?


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There are some refreshing aspects to McChrystal's assessment. But even so he seems blind to the assumed and ill-defined categories: insurgents, terrorists, the Afghans, more vaguely "Afghans", and "we" who have a huge longterm mission there for which more soldiers are needed, and who Wardak assures us are not seen as "occupiers".
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Sep 22nd, 2009 at 09:28:00 AM EST
Here are some criticisms of General McChrystal from a not so dispassionate detractor:

The blood on McChrystal's hands is something that should make Obama and liberals in general consider seriously whether or not they want to provoke the generals any more than they already have; THESE ARE MEN WHO BELIEVE IN THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF THEIR CAUSE AND WILL NOT BLINK AT KILLING THEIR ADVERSARIES. Take, for example McChrystal's history with Task Force 626 (aka, Task Force 145 and 121). [See our article: "The Cedars - The House on 24th St."]

McChrystal and Boykin, both of whom consider themselves to be "born-again" Christians, (see note above) are intimately involved in a hyper-secret organization known as Task Force 626. The New York Times reports that Task Force 626 was a creation of the Pentagon's post-Sept. 11 campaign against terrorism, and it quickly became the model for how the military would ... battle insurgents in the future. The unit was originally called Task Force 121. It's now referred to as Task Force 145. [For further information on the Christian mindset that permeates Task Force 121, please see our articles, "The Evil in our Midst" and "The Power of Self-Sacrifice: Taking up Your Cross and Following Him."]

Journalist Seymour Hersh, echoing Professor Petras, says the "killers" of Task Force 121 (aka 145 and 626) "... are the people most responsible for the savage brutality that is currently being carried out in Iraq and Afghanistan by the U.S. military." Like Petras, Hersh labels the unit as a rapid-deployment ASSASSINATION team built out of elite Special Operations forces from the Army, Navy and Air Force. He says that the individual death squads that comprise Task Force 121 have CIA officers officially "attached," and come with a large accompanying "conventional force" to seal off areas while the killing and "disappearing" take place. These are "Phoenix"-like operations and are similar to the kind of death squad campaigns that have been carried out for years and years by the American military and the CIA in Central and South America, Africa and elsewhere. [Please see our article, "The Death Squads: Bringing In The Kingdom Of God Through Terror, Torture And Death;" please also see "The Horror of John Dimitri Negroponte and Everything He Represents."]


It is easy to disparage the tone of S.R. Shearer and of those he quotes, such as Gareth Porter and James Petras, but it should be noted that Shearer himself is coming from a more liberal Christian background.  Shearer also quotes extensively from Dave Lindorff, who he describes as "a well-respected journalist connected to the Columbia School of Journalism...", Bill Wasik - a senior editor at Harper's Magazine, Richard Kohn, the chairman of the curriculum in Peace, War, and Defense at the University of North Carolina and Chris Hedges, who writes for Salon Magazine.  This is just one article that turned up from a google search of "General Petraeus, General McChrystal, Christian Values" and it is hardly the first time I have encountered concerns about the ideology of our US all volunteer army and its officer corps.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer at eurotrib.com) on Tue Sep 22nd, 2009 at 10:30:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
McChrystal certainly comes almost straight out of Special Ops, and

Gen. Stanley A. McChrystal - WhoRunsGov.com, a Wash Post Co

Due in large part to his background in the shadowy world of special operations, which often include participation from non-defense agencies, McChrystal's network extends beyond the military. Military officials say he has a deep rolodex of contacts inside the Central Intelligence Agency, FBI and other federal intelligence and national security outfits.

If he's also a crusading born-again Christian with an Old-Testament view of smiting the enemy, it doesn't show in this assessment. Which may, of course, be a front. Not sure I'd go with Shearer's conspiracy stuff, though. Gareth Porter, whom I've sometimes quoted in the Salon, isn't as rabid (IPS article here).

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Sep 22nd, 2009 at 11:15:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I have searched for a while without turning up specific evidence regarding McChrystal and fundamentalism other than Shearer's descriptions.  Much of the value of Shearer's piece derives from his quoted sources, but this allegation doesn't seem to be among them.

McChrystal's Counterinsurgency Guidance document seems encouraging. The recommended approaches towards sit downs with local leaders followed up with responses to their needs seem more likely to yield long term results than targeted killings of perceived local opposition leaders.  However, from his prior record, it would appear that McChrystal has employed the directed assassination approach in the past with Special Ops.

He is serving under Gen. Petraeus and I believe that the counterinsurgency strategy he is embracing is that of Petraeus and that they both share a faith.  But that remains just my belief until can find better evidence.  Pardon me if I suspect that this is rather like teasing out the true opinions of Supreme Court nominees on subjects like abortion.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer at eurotrib.com) on Tue Sep 22nd, 2009 at 12:53:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Coming from the top US commander in Afghanistan, it sounds terribly like the CORDS Program the US implemented in Vietnam. Its "counter-terror" part, the Phoenix Program quickly became the biggest part...

"Ce qui vient au monde pour ne rien troubler ne mérite ni égards ni patience." René Char
by Melanchthon on Tue Sep 22nd, 2009 at 02:20:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
To what extent should success be seen as something political achieved in the US more or less independent of what's actually happening in Afghanistan.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Sep 22nd, 2009 at 10:15:42 AM EST
By which I mean that the war was waged for internal US political reasons and success includes things like:

  • Not having to admit that the war was foolish.
  • Not having to admit that US troops died more or less pointlessly.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Sep 22nd, 2009 at 10:21:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
My take: Since 9-11 I fear that "our" biggest goal was simply to have a grand stage on which our leaders could posture at the cost of other people's lives.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer at eurotrib.com) on Tue Sep 22nd, 2009 at 10:34:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, McChrystal is certainly trying, in this piece, to talk about what's happening in Afghanistan. But there's a serious disconnect when it comes to talking about goals.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Sep 22nd, 2009 at 10:51:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sure, but he can't very well say that there is no mission in Afghanistan that make any sense internally.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Sep 22nd, 2009 at 11:08:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's why the disconnect. The only mission stated is seen from the outside; the only human categories mentioned (not defined) are seen from the outside; and the fact of foreign occupation is implicitly denied.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Sep 22nd, 2009 at 11:20:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
He is unclear about goals, but he and those he represents are quite insistent that we send more troops so that we don't lose....this time around...like with Beirut under Reagan.  The domestic political agenda is implicit in the fact that the document was leaked.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer at eurotrib.com) on Tue Sep 22nd, 2009 at 02:48:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ironically, even the pre-existing criteria of the defense establishment suggest it's time to get out:

Weinberger Doctrine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

  1. The United States should not commit forces to combat unless the vital national interests of the United States or its allies are involved.
  2. U.S. troops should only be committed wholeheartedly and with the clear intention of winning. Otherwise, troops should not be committed.
  3. U.S. combat troops should be committed only with clearly defined political and military objectives and with the capacity to accomplish those objectives.
  4. The relationship between the objectives and the size and composition of the forces committed should be continually reassessed and adjusted if necessary.
  5. U.S. troops should not be committed to battle without a "reasonable assurance" of the support of U.S. public opinion and Congress.
  6. The commitment of U.S. troops should be considered only as a last resort.



Jesus died for somebody's sins but not mine - Patti Smith
by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Tue Sep 22nd, 2009 at 10:55:00 AM EST
Only because if #4:
The relationship between the objectives and the size and composition of the forces committed should be continually reassessed and adjusted if necessary.
which allows for troops already committed to be "uncommitted".

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Sep 22nd, 2009 at 12:14:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What I think will make this a hard sell in the troop-sending countries is that fact that McC's strategy is militarily neither offensive (maximized enemy killed) nor (defensive) minimize own troops killed, but just "we'll put our guys on the streets and let the insurgents take their best shot" - which as McC admits is going to up casualties substantially.

This is going to do wonders for support at home...

Jesus died for somebody's sins but not mine - Patti Smith

by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Tue Sep 22nd, 2009 at 11:07:34 AM EST
VOA News - Report: Pentagon Urges Top US General in Afghanistan to Delay Call for Troops
A major U.S. newspaper is reporting that the Pentagon has told its top commander in Afghanistan to delay submitting a request for additional troops.

The Wall Street Journal quotes defense officials Tuesday saying the Obama administration asked for the delay so it can be sure the U.S. is "using the right strategy" before looking into additional troop requests.

The top U.S. and NATO commander in Afghanistan has warned that the mission "will likely result in failure" if more troops are not sent within the next year.

But General Stanley McChrystal also says that "while the situation is serious, success is still achievable" if the mission receives proper resources and support throughout the coalition.
 
McChrystal's remarks are part of a strategic assessment that is still officially secret, but The Washington Post published an unclassified version on its Web site Monday.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Sep 22nd, 2009 at 11:44:44 AM EST
A D.C. whodunit: Who leaked and why? | Reuters

POLITICO (Washington) - Bob Woodward's Monday-morning exclusive on a 66-page report from Gen. Stanley McChrystal to President Barack Obama about Afghanistan policy was a rite of passage for the new administration: the first major national security leak and a sure sign that the celebrated Washington Post reporter has penetrated yet another administration.

White House officials greeted the leak with a grimace, but none suggested they'd begin a witch hunt for the leaker. Woodward is famous for his access to the principals themselves -- he recently traveled to Afghanistan with National Security Adviser James Jones -- and leak hunters couldn't expect with confidence that they'd find themselves disciplining just an undisciplined junior staffer.

But inside the White House and out, the leak touched off another familiar Washington ritual: speculation about the leaker's identity and motives.

...

The simplest theory -- and one most administration officials Monday were endorsing -- is that a military or civilian Pentagon official who supports McChrystal's policy put it out in an attempt to pressure Obama to follow McChrystal's suggestion and increase troop levels in Afghanistan.

But not everyone in Washington is a believer in Occam's razor, so all manner of other theories flourished.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Sep 22nd, 2009 at 11:45:36 AM EST
McChrystal: More Forces or 'Mission Failure' - washingtonpost.com
The top U.S. and NATO commander in Afghanistan warns in an urgent, confidential assessment of the war that he needs more forces within the next year and bluntly states that without them, the eight-year conflict "will likely result in failure,"

Gen. Stanley A. McChrystal says emphatically: "Failure to gain the initiative and reverse insurgent momentum in the near-term (next 12 months) -- while Afghan security capacity matures -- risks an outcome where defeating the insurgency is no longer possible."

Westmoreland asks for more troops

December 16, 1965

Gen. William Westmoreland, Commander of U.S. Military Assistance Command Vietnam, sends a request for more troops. With nearly 200,000 U.S. military personnel in South Vietnam already, Westmoreland sent Defense Secretary Robert McNamara a message stating that he would need an additional 243,000 men by the end of 1966.



"Ce qui vient au monde pour ne rien troubler ne mérite ni égards ni patience." René Char
by Melanchthon on Tue Sep 22nd, 2009 at 11:56:09 AM EST
Well, that worked. I didn't even double-take on Westmoreland. More of the same, dzzzz
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Sep 22nd, 2009 at 12:14:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"Failing to send more troops will result in mission failure."

This is, of course an accurate statement. Failing to send troops will result in mission failure.

Carping critics might note that sending more troops will also result in mission failure. But fortunately, such nitpickers aren't Serious People.

- Jake

"Terraforming your own planet to make it uninhabitable hardly counts as epic win." - ThatBritGuy

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Sep 22nd, 2009 at 12:52:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And if it fails
"It's that simple," she declared, "if you want another terrorist attack in the U.S., abandon Afghanistan."
Yes, that's Condoleeza Rice, in a new interview in Fortune. As for the Afghanistan elections
Rice acknowledged flaws in Afghanistan's recent elections but quickly inserted an addendum bolstered by her personal credentials: "Our democracy wasn't so perfect at the beginning either. My ancestors were three-fifths of a man. My father tried to vote in 1952. You couldn't guarantee voting rights for blacks in the South until 1965 with the Voting Rights Act. So don't tell me these people can't get it right because their democracies are struggling."
Actually, her ancestors' owners got an extra three-fifths of a vote for every one of her ancestors that they owned. Would she have really preferred them to get a whole additional vote instead?
by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Wed Sep 23rd, 2009 at 02:42:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I really don't know what to say about the military, about what they're trying to do or how well they're doing it.

I actually think there's too much focus on the military, and on their goals, rather than on overall goals of reconstruction, development, peacebuilding, governance, etc.  In other words, people only want to talk about the military, while what's really important here is everything else but the military.

Some would argue that the international forces' presence here obstructs those goals, because they become a target. The fighting follows them.  That is to some degree true, but if they were to leave, I suspect work towards those overall goals would screech to a halt in some parts of the country and then take a flying leap backwards.  So is it bad with the international military forces here?  Yes.  Would it be worse if they left?  Probably also yes.

But I think there are also good, important questions to be asked about those other goals, the overall ones, the ones that the "international community" is working to support through NGOs and multilateral institutions and quasi-military PRTs.  I mean, that's what all this military activity is supposed to be making room for, right?  And nobody's talking about that.

Well, almost nobody:

Veteran journalist (and, coincidentally, my friend, but I'd totally link to this excellent piece anyway) Ellen Knickmeyer, writing on the Foreign Policy blog, asks a lot of the right questions and makes some very important points in Is Afghanistan the New Africa?

But without smarter use of development money, it's a bump in prosperity that will disappear in Afghanistan, and Iraq, as soon as the foreigners do. Billions of dollars in aid have vanished without effect in both countries, thrown away by the hundreds of millions to U.S. contractors, frittered away in programs such as unending trash pickups in Baghdad's Sadr City paid for by the U.S. military's commanders' emergency response program. The trash remains; the commanders have rotated in and out and in; the money spent is gone. The bomb barriers stand to be the physical legacy of the United States' dismal occupations.

In Afghanistan, aid efforts since the invasion have some success stories. They include improvements in health care for Afghans, especially at the clinic level. But the lack of coordination and focus among aid efforts has hurt. So has the United States' military-led insistence on pouring aid into the Taliban-saturated south, to the neglect of central and northern regions that could have more easily been made a bulwark for an Afghan government. Agriculture and other crucial sectors have gotten short shrift.

This next part is important.

For Afghanistan, adherents of the "we broke it, we'll walk away from it" school express their shock, shock, shock at the squandering of development money, and call for Western leaders to wash their hands and consciences of Afghanistan.

Absent smarter handling of all the money while it's still flowing, we may soon be abandoning Afghanistan to the Taliban and other armed factions -- no beer factories, but plenty of opium -- and leaving Afghans, as it were, by the side of the road, selling rat-on-a-stick.

Read the whole thing, really.

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Tue Sep 22nd, 2009 at 12:07:11 PM EST
Well, my incomprehension extends to what that effort is meant to be achieving in the long run.  Surely if/when the troops leave the whole thing is going to burn down again?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Sep 22nd, 2009 at 12:26:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Surely?!

Nothing is sure.

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Tue Sep 22nd, 2009 at 01:02:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's a question.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Sep 22nd, 2009 at 01:07:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, as was clearly indicated by the question mark at the end.  ;-)  

But with the word "surely" involved, the answer has to be no.  Without that word, it's a lot harder to answer.

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Tue Sep 22nd, 2009 at 01:15:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Do you envisage disaster being avoided.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Sep 22nd, 2009 at 01:21:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Sep 22nd, 2009 at 01:29:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I have absolutely no idea.

After the Soviets withdrew, Najibullah's regime held out longer than anybody expected, and the civil war that erupted afterward was also worse than anyone had feared.  Some of the factors that contributed to that, and to the subsequent rise of the Taliban, would not be repeated if the international troops were to leave today.  But there are a whole host of new and different factors that would affect the outcome, some for the better and others for the worse.

In short, I have absolutely no idea.

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Tue Sep 22nd, 2009 at 01:29:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Is "the taliban impose their rule over all of the country after two months of fighting" included into "the whole thing burning down" ?

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Tue Sep 22nd, 2009 at 01:25:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That was sort of my thinking.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Sep 22nd, 2009 at 01:28:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"over all of the country" = no.

"over some of the country" = they already have.

"over more of the country than they already have" = probably yes, though it's not clear how much more.

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Tue Sep 22nd, 2009 at 01:32:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Why "no" to all the country?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Sep 22nd, 2009 at 01:37:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There are parts of the country where the Taliban have no support base, and where the dominant ethnic groups have no love lost for the Pashtun.  I won't say they couldn't or wouldn't eventually get control of the whole country again, but it wouldn't be that fast.

Lots of factors to consider, but I think there are areas of the country where they'd run into serious resistance.

I need to log off now.

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Tue Sep 22nd, 2009 at 01:49:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
the stormy present:
I actually think there's too much focus on the military, and on their goals, rather than on overall goals of reconstruction, development, peacebuilding, governance, etc.  In other words, people only want to talk about the military, while what's really important here is everything else but the military.

That's certainly true. I wonder if that is merely because the military has done the best job of making people think they have a clear goal and know how to get there.

I know there are development success stories in the relevant areas: promoting governance, fostering peace, mitigating ethnic tension, building a healthcare system, establishing an educational system, enabling girls and women to participate, fostering the rule of law encouraging institutions of civil society. But does anyone know how to do this all at once?

And if the West doesn't know how, or is not reasonably certain that it can figure this out in a timely manner, is it fair to the Afghans to remain?

Jesus died for somebody's sins but not mine - Patti Smith

by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Tue Sep 22nd, 2009 at 12:39:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I wonder if that is merely because the military has done the best job of making people think they have a clear goal and know how to get there.

Wow, do you actually know anyone who thinks the military has a clear goal and knows how to get there?  Because I don't, not even folks in the military. ;-)

if the West doesn't know how, or is not reasonably certain that it can figure this out in a timely manner

Well, first of all, define "a timely manner."  We've already wasted eight years.

The thing is, these are lessons we've aleady learned, just failed to apply here.  And nothing happens overnight.  All of the things you've mentioned are happening, with varying degrees of success or lack thereof.  The question should certainly not be about anyone doing all of them at once, but whether projects aimed at those discrete goals can be coordinated and carried out well enough that they don't work at cross purposes or undermine each other.  Like the article said, it's not really about more money, it's about spending it smarter.  We do actually know how to do that, but do we have the political will?

is it fair to the Afghans to remain?

Is it fair to remain?  I'm not sure what that means.  

I'm hearing a lot of commentary (including on ET) that sounds a lot like washing our hands of the mess we made, and leaving these poor people with the consequences.  "Could we be forgiven for getting the hell out of there because it's too hard and too scary?"  And that makes me deeply uncomfortable.  It doesn't sound very fair.

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Tue Sep 22nd, 2009 at 01:01:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Wow, do you actually know anyone who thinks the military has a clear goal and knows how to get there?

Maybe I just got that impression because they've been hogging the microphone.

We've already wasted eight years.

Well, that was my point. I suspect at some point the Afghan population is going to become impatient, and that this point is perhaps not that far off any more (though you would likely have a better insight into that). I guess by timely I mean "real soon". If another winter goes by and the West still doesn't have a credible concept, will the Afghans still listen to us? Again, you're on site, how do you see that?

We do actually know how to do that

Do we? That's a sincere question on my part.

The "political will to spend smarter" looks like a fairly substantial hurdle. The article you cite implies that "spending smarter" is equivalent to not giving Karzai&Cronies any more money, which in turn would show the Kabul regime up as a puppet government with no true legitimacy. Given the political capital that's been invested in asserting the opposite, that would take a great deal of political will indeed.

If I understand you correctly, you believe the West should remain in Afghanistan AND pursue broad, meaningful development objectives.

That's fine, because the latter legitimates the former, and the endeavor as a whole stands to benefit the broad population. But if the West fails to undertake the latter, I see neither legitimacy or benefit.

Jesus died for somebody's sins but not mine - Patti Smith

by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Tue Sep 22nd, 2009 at 01:41:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I suspect at some point the Afghan population is going to become impatient, and that this point is perhaps not that far off any more

Impatient with...?  Look, I have a very small window, but what I see people becoming more impatient with is being hungry and poor, and with lacking opportunities for work and education, and with corruption.  None of these are things you can fix in six months.

I mean seriously, impatient with what?  With Western aid?  With the military?  I don't understand.  Because if people perceive the alternative to the international presence as abandonment of the country to domination by the Taliban, their level of impatience will depend on how much they don't want to live under the Taliban again.  And (while sure, I have a pretty small window, and the Taliban is actually a pretty diverse set of groups) there are a whole lot of people who would choose the former over the latter.

will the Afghans still listen to us?

Why on Earth should they be listening to us?  We should be listening to them.  For Chrissake, it's their country.

People don't seem to understand this:  most Afghans are mainly concerned with living their lives.  They want to work, and buy or grow food for their families, and move around safely, and send their kids to school (yes, really) and do all the things that you & I take for granted.  And they're doing those things.

When I first got here, an acquaintance put it like this:  Most Afghans are just living their lives, and they think of the war as something the Taliban and the military do with each other, which hopefully they can avoid.

But does that mean they'd choose a peaceful life under the Taliban?  No, because that doesn't let them live their lives either.

Every single person I know has several answers when you ask about their life stories, but one of them always sounds something like this:  I used to {work as X, live in Y}, until the Taliban came.  Or else it's this: In the Taliban time, my family and I left for {Tajikistan, Pakistan, Iran}....

Things are measured in eras here.  The Soviet Time.  The Taliban Time.  Since 2002.

Since 2002 is now, although increasingly (in Kabul) there's also Since 2007, when things started getting worse.

that would take a great deal of political will indeed.

And yet I rarely hear anyone arguing for the political will.  Instead, I hear people arguing to just give up.  Which is sort of the opposite.

I'm sorry, I'm super tired now and need to log off because I have a few hours of work to do tonight and then have to get up at the crack of dawn.

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Tue Sep 22nd, 2009 at 02:17:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And yet I rarely hear anyone arguing for the political will.  Instead, I hear people arguing to just give up.  Which is sort of the opposite.

There is also the question of institutional capability. Even if the political will is made to exist at the political level, it is far from self-evident that the NATO military machine can implement that political will in any meaningful fashion. After all, we'd basically be talking about a complete re-thinking of the current military doctrine and operational posture. This is something that NATO hasn't done since the last world war - even after first the French and then the Americans got their asses kicked in Viet Nam.

In short, you may (very probably will) need to take operational control of the theatre away from the Pentagon.

That is, of course, possible. In the same sense and to the same extent that it's possible to prosecute CIA operatives for torture and J.P. Morgan for insider trading.

- Jake

"Terraforming your own planet to make it uninhabitable hardly counts as epic win." - ThatBritGuy

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Sep 22nd, 2009 at 05:06:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
far from self-evident that the NATO military machine can implement

I'm not talking about the military.

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Tue Sep 22nd, 2009 at 05:22:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But right now the military are the ones calling the shots. So if you're not talking about working with the military, you're talking about taking control away from them.

Which I'm all for, but then it has to be framed like that: Take control away from the military, and give it to the people who know what works and what doesn't (less confrontationally, the military is there to serve the civilian reconstruction, not the other way around). Framing it as "we should stay there to help the locals" reinforces the military control of the operation.

- Jake

"Terraforming your own planet to make it uninhabitable hardly counts as epic win." - ThatBritGuy

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Sep 22nd, 2009 at 05:46:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I promise, I'm not about to disappear because of the conversation in this diary, but I am going to be offline for a week or so because of work-related travel.

Bye, y'all.  Let me know if you figure out how to fix Afghanistan while I'm gone.

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Tue Sep 22nd, 2009 at 02:21:11 PM EST
Have fun!

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Sep 22nd, 2009 at 02:22:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
   Unlike the Russians, who imposed a government with an alien ideology, you enabled us to write a democratic constitution and

Abdul Rahim Wardak, Afghan Defence Minister, is having fun.  Now I won't challenge his assertion that Soviet Communism was an "alien ideology"--the fun comes with the easy assumption that free-market "democracy" is not also an alien ideology.  But Mr. Wardak knows his audience--an audience that believes implicitly Afghanis have no aspirations other than to become Walmart shoppers and debt slaves to BoA.  

Next the excuses in advance (in case the failure that is sure to happen, does happen):

we make the problem harder. ISAF is a conventional force that is poorly configured for COIN, inexperienced in local languages and culture,
 
What?  We needed to know something about the people we are trying to occupy?  How unexpected!  How unfair!  The Brits never did anything like that--I mean--who knew?  

Pre-occupied with protection of our own forces
That's the kind of thing commanders say when they have given up on tactical goals and are fighting their way out of an encirclement!  But maybe there are no tactical goals . . .  

we have operated in a manner that distances us -- physically and psychologically -- from the people we seek to protect
 
Yeah, waging war on people does tend to do that, whether you are trying to "protect them" or no.  

security may not come from the barrel of a gun.

Hallelujah!  Breakout the flowers and beads!  Are we really hearing this from the same guy who just a few years ago was running death-squads in Iraq?

Better force protection may be counterintuitive;
 
There's that "force protection" again!  If the troops cannot protect themselves, what shall we do--send in the NYPD?  
it might come from less armor and less distance from the population.

This must be why we are running more of our missions out of Nevada using remote control aircraft.  

the objective is the will of the people
 For a military mission this has one meaning, for a diplomatic mission another.  But somehow this sounds like a mere paraphrase of the old Vietnam "winning hearts and minds" thing.  Which in fact turned out to mean putting as many of them in concentration camps as possible.  What could it mean this time around?  
the Afghans must ultimately defeat the insurgency
 It is up to our puppets to fight our wars for us--certainly we can not be expected to do it ourselves!
Obama's strategy to disrupt, dismantle, and eventually defeat al Qaeda and prevent their return to Afghanistan have laid out a clear path
 
Ah!  Now I see the problem:  McChrystal does not know the difference between a goal and a strategy.  Maybe he does not know the difference between an objective and a tactic, either.  How did this guy get promoted out of Black Ops in Baghdad?  

The Fates are kind.
by Gaianne on Thu Sep 24th, 2009 at 05:24:17 AM EST
nice breakdown, Gaianne.

How did this guy get promoted out of Black Ops in Baghdad?

he knows too much? reward for wet work? because they hope he'll get offed (with his secrets)?

if things go well, it'll have been a great career move, if not... well, no-one's indispensable.  

"Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do." Jim Hightower

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Thu Sep 24th, 2009 at 07:26:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]


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