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Steve Keen's Dynamic Model of the Economy

by ARGeezer Wed Sep 23rd, 2009 at 01:18:09 AM EST

I infamously, if unintentionally, hijacked a Chris Cook diary back in April and turned it into a diary on economic modeling.  Mig subsequently turned the hijacked portion into a separate diary.  Then I turned a comment by Marco on Phillips' Moniac Machine into a diary and there have been several previous modeling diaries.  

There has been lots of discussion about the uses and benefits of a computer simulation of the economy that could run on a P.C.  Meanwhile, Steve Keen has actually created a dynamic model for an economy and has used it to critique Krugman and the NCE mainstream for remaining tied to equalibrium analysis and to critique Obama's approach to the GFC and the TBTF banks:

I've recently developed a genuinely monetary, credit-driven model of the economy, and one of its first insights is that Obama has been sold a pup on the right way to stimulate the economy: he would have got far more bang for his buck by giving the stimulus to the debtors rather than the creditors.
The following figure shows three simulations of this model in which a change in the willingness of lenders to lend and borrowers to borrow causes a "credit crunch" in year 25. In year 26, the government injects $100 billion into the economy--which at that stage has output of about $1,000 billion, so it's a pretty huge injection, in two different ways: it injects $100 billion into bank reserves, or it puts $100 billion into the bank accounts of firms, who are the debtors in this model.


The model shows that you get far more "bang for your buck" by giving the money to firms, rather than banks. Unemployment falls in both case below the level that would have applied in the absence of the stimulus, but the reduction in unemployment is far greater when the firms get the stimulus, not the banks: unemployment peaks at over 18 percent without the stimulus, just over 13 percent with the stimulus going to the banks, but under 11 percent with the stimulus being given to the firms.

The time path of the recession is also greatly altered. The recession is shorter with the stimulus, but there's actually a mini-boom in the middle of it with the firm-directed stimulus, versus a simply lower peak to unemployment with the bank-directed stimulus.

Steve has previously discussed his plans to use computer based dynamic models and noted that he had such models working.  I believe he said they were developed in Math Cad, but I can't find the reference.

In a later article Steve Keen comments on Krugman's recent column critiquing mainstream economics for falling in love with mathematical beauty.  Keen notes  that economics has isolated itself from the mainstream of scientific development by eschewing the use of differential equations, which are essential to analyzing dynamic systems. Krugman had suggested that meteorology might be a better anology to economics than Newtonian physics.  Keen responds:

Well Paul, to understand meteorology, you're going to have to give up on equilibrium-or rather on the fantasy that a complex system can be modelled as if it is in equilibrium. There are, for example, 3 equilibria in the Lorenz Attractor-all three of which are unstable. Equilibrium is a state in which the Attractor will never be.

I also find it remarkable that intelligent people like Krugman can be so ignorant of developments outside their own field of endeavour. Notice the comment he made that not applying the standard neoclassical economics simplifications like equilibrium "will, inevitably, lead to a much messier, less pretty view".

Prettiness itself should not be an objective of science. But nonetheless, some of the prettiest objects in science are the result of non-equilibrium dynamics. The Lorenz Attractor is clearly one-take a look at it and you'll see why people often talk of "the Butterfly Effect" when describing the instability of the weather. But there are many others.

I think my own non-equilibrium models of the economy have a similar beauty-here for example are two from my model of Minsky's Financial Instability Hypothesis. The first is of an economy without a government sector which undergoes a debt-driven Depression:

The fate is not pretty-the economy collapses as debt rises-but the image is "pretty".

Both the image and the fate of the next model are pretty-this is an economy starting from the same initial conditions, but which has a government sector that practices counter-cyclical fiscal policy and therefore prevents a debt-induced crisis:

The above is the time path of employment and wages in this model, which is actually a 2D slice through the 4-dimensions of the model: (1) the wages share of output; (2) the employment rate; (3) the debt to output ratio; and (4) government spending as a percentage of output). This next view shows 3 of those dimensions (excluding government spending), and the 2 dimensional view of the previous simulation is shown as a shadow below the 3D shape):

So the output of non-equilibrium models can be "pretty"-it's just the picture they craft of capitalism that isn't pretty. It isn't a system that automatically reaches equilibrium and ensures the best outcome for the largest number of people. It may not be "pretty" in that way, but it is the world in which we live.

Display:
Very interesting view. Thanks.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Wed Sep 23rd, 2009 at 04:46:11 AM EST
Well, duh.

A problem of the lack of interdisciplinarity in our scientific establishment is that most of economics is contradicted or dismissed by Sociologists or Mathematicians - yet economics won't change.

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Wed Sep 23rd, 2009 at 06:08:15 AM EST
Don't like argument by analogy ... going to do it anyway.

Let's say you've got a car.  This car shot a piston through the top of the engine and it's low on gas.  To make the engine go vroom-vroom you put more gas in the gas tank.

Yes, putting gas (increasing the money supply) is addressing a problem with the engine (economy.)  Only putting gas in the gas tank isn't going to make the engine go vroom-vroom until you fix the piston (consumer income.)  

Consumer spending is ~70% of all economic activity.

Until real, inflation adjusted, wages surpass the real Cost of Living consumers can't afford to buy stuff (fixing the piston.)

Until consumers can afford to buy stuff ... they won't.  

Don't know why that's so goddamn hard for economists to understand, but 'tis.  

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Wed Sep 23rd, 2009 at 10:59:28 AM EST
Don't know why that's so goddamn hard for economists to understand, but 'tis.

It is not in the perceived interests of those whom they serve for the money to go anywhere but to the banks.  Therefore they would be destroying their professional reputations to say differently--to rephrase Sinclair Lewis.  And, besides, they never even considered studying differential equations.  It isn't required for the "Nobel".


As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Wed Sep 23rd, 2009 at 11:55:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
After deep introspection of the epistemic value of your communication, including all facets of the message as carried by the narrative, judged by the research results of a Post-Modern analysis in a multi-cultural Knowledgebase milieu ...

I going to stick my fingers in my ears, my right thumb in my mouth, my head up my ass, and sing as loudly as possible, "La-la-la!  I can't HEAR yooooooouuuuuuuuuuuu!" since I've been repeatedly told the Ruling Class, through their fine media outlets, by Serious People™, including Nobel winning - thus validated, thus True - Neo-Classical economists, they have only my interests in mind.

That they are sucking all the money out of the pockets of the productive class is an unfortunate by-product of their actions and policies is ... an unfortunate by-product and one that will be corrected in the near future.  

Any Day.  

Real Soon Now.  

(See footnote one here.)

</snark>

Guess I'm amazed (and exasperated) at how good the scumbags are at Making Shit Up and then their success at getting people to accept it.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Wed Sep 23rd, 2009 at 12:23:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Maintaining civil comportment becomes increasingly incompatible with possession of a functioning brain. Guess I shouldn't have stopped doing drugs.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Wed Sep 23rd, 2009 at 12:42:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Didn't intend to direct that -> at <- you, by any means.  More as a response to 'Things As They Is.'   I didn't make that clear.  Apologies.

You're right.  I need to "Step Away from the Keyboard."

I now so do.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Wed Sep 23rd, 2009 at 01:49:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No! No!  That was an obviously failed attempt to express solidarity in the common dilemma of WORDS FAIL US! when dealing with received stupidity.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Wed Sep 23rd, 2009 at 01:59:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No harm, no foul.

Learned sometime ago when I start think, "Oh, Christ.  Here I go again!" it's time to Shut Up for a while.

LOL

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Wed Sep 23rd, 2009 at 07:41:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I know the feeling, but I had no intention of inducing that feeling in you at that time.  I have to remember that using the impersonal can lead to misunderstandings when we are talking about frustrations, etc.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Wed Sep 23rd, 2009 at 07:50:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Keen's model is a simulation model.  Like neoclassical and keynesian general or partial equilibrium models, and like simulations of climate change caused by either human activity or sun spot activity, or popular computer games like Sim City, Keen's simulation is just as limited by his a priori assumptions as any other theoretical explanation of how the world works.  The question is whether the assumptions are reasonable and whether we can observe something similar in real world cases.

Fortunately for Keen, two other economists have examined the financial crisis of Japan during the 1990's, and their conclusions provide some support for Keen's prediction that bank bailouts are a less effective means of stimulating the economy.  They are essentially an equity policies, not a growth policies -- bailouts help some people by transferring resources to them, but they aren't a very effective means of helping the economy as whole.

by santiago on Wed Sep 23rd, 2009 at 02:41:48 PM EST
I haven't found a discussion of the details of his model.  In one of our modeling threads I opined that it was crucial that the model be available for inspection by others and that assumptions be clearly stated.  

To facilitate that process I think that an annotated source code should be available.  Then it becomes a question of profits or transparency.  In a better world both would be possible.  I don't know how well that would work in this world.  I do know that in the '50s key techniques for radar were put into the public domain so that the whole process could develop faster.  In this case the work had been done at Cal Tech and JPL, but I couldn't likely find a reference today.

Such models could be partially verified by tailoring the model to a specific country and time and comparing the behavior of the model with what is known about the actual events.  How much of this has been done you likely would know better than I.  Phillips' Moniac solved fifteen simultaneous linear equations via hydraulic simulation and simulated Keynes' national income equations.

Keen implies that he uses a series of differential equations so as to explicitly model variation with respect to time. I do not know the complexity of his model. Computer based numerical evaluation makes many things possible. When I took differential equations in the early 60s this was unavailable and cook book solutions were the order of the day.  

That was at a time when there were rather clear national boundaries to national economies. It would seem that a group of such models, each tailored to a specific economy, could be run with other computer models handling the interactions between models for various flows, such as capital, raw materials, agricultural products, and various types of manufactured goods.

Empirics would be good.  Far better that we see models crash than that we see individual and world economies crash.  But this relies on the optimistic assumption that such models would be used to prevent crashes, where some might in fact be used to see how specific entities could benefit from provoking specific kinds of crashes.  

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Wed Sep 23rd, 2009 at 07:47:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This is his formal model. It is actually not very complex compared to most of neoclassical work today, so I don't know where he is coming from when he says, as he did in one of your citations, that PhD economists are never exposed to differential equations.  Solving the Black-Scholes model for option pricing is a much more challenging example of economists' creative use of differential equations than Keen's straightforward use in a basic simulation program.  

I think he means that models of the economy should be using differentials with regards to time in order to model dynamic instead of static environments, which is what dynamic simulation models do whether or not they are equilibrium models (where the simulation is constrained in some way in order to simulate the tendency of supply to equal demand in the long run) or non-equilibrium simulations such as climate change models or the one he proposes for modeling a actors behavior in a recession.

It should be noted that general equilibrium simulation models have a well established record in the economics literature of being pretty sound empirically -- their predictions seem to match reality when as much as possible is taken into account regarding measurements of reality.  However, non-equilibrium simulations, such as the old binary, input-output workhorse of Wassily Leontiff, also provides pretty good predictions when used correctly by analysts who know what they are doing.  

by santiago on Wed Sep 23rd, 2009 at 09:35:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The formal model link is to a PDF of his modified Minski model paper.  I did not understand from what Keen said that this was the model he used to generate the graphs showing the effects of giving stimulus money to banks vs. businesses and individuals.  Was this somewhere else that I missed?

Regarding the differential equations, I will quote part of what I summarized:

To academics from other disciplines, this obsession appears quaint. Most sciences have concepts too, but they don't attempt to model the systems at the heart of their discipline as if they are always in equilibrium. They have instead developed methods to analyse the behaviour of these systems when they are not in equilibrium-which is almost all the time (and when they do model equilbrium, their concepts of equilibrium are much broader than that which applies in neoclassical economics, which implies that all agents in the system are in a state of rest).

Instead, neoclassical economists reflect their isolation from the broad sweep of intellectual history by being ignorant of these very methods. I find this stunning-because the most basic such method is part of the education of any engineer, physicist, or mathematician, even if they only do an undergraduate degree in their subject and never become academics. This method is "Differential Equations", and any engineer, physicist, or mathematician has to do at least an introductory course in these in order to get a Bachelors Degree.

Yet economists can graduate with PhDs without ever coming across them. (My bold.)

Keen says that one can obtain a PhD in Econ without having to take a course in differential equations.  This is not the same as saying that no economics students ever do take courses in differential equations.  Some may come to economics from a math, science or engineering background, such as Phillips.  Some may choose to take such courses in order to pursue particular lines of inquiry.  But Keen has a PhD from some time back in the '80s, IIRCC and he teaches economics in a university, so I would expect him to be familiar with current requirements that are typical in academia.

Your "analysts who know what they are doing" link is interesting for two reasons.  It is for an event in St. Louis in 2010, which is a place I occasionally visit these days in connection with air travel, and the topic seems to be economic impact modeling.  They refer to commodities.  Is that an area in which you are involved?    

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Wed Sep 23rd, 2009 at 11:33:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I still maintain that it's not possible to graduate with a PhD in Economics in the vast majority of programs and never come across a differential equation, particularly in the neo-classical focused programs that keen criticizes where such math is foundational.  It's even very difficult to graduate as an undergraduate in economics today without learning differential calculus because those are simply the required courses in most standard econ curricula.  Most PhD-level courses use them because most major pieces of economics literature, particularly neoclassical, monetarist, and Keynesian literature, use such math as a central arguments.  As Krugman said, that's how economists organize their thoughts when sharing them with each other.

Part of getting a PhD is becoming familiar with all of the major papers written in the field such that you can explain exactly what they mean to dissertation and oral exam committees.  Even Marxists have to learn them, but especially in financial economics -- where Keen is focused -- you just can't get a doctorate today without being able to take Black-Scholes apart and put it together again. If Australia is different, they're in a tiny minority, but to state that economists don't understand the significance of taking a derivative with respect to time is a gross exaggeration and I think Keen knows that.

Regarding the link to IMPLAN, I am familiar with their input-output models, but I've used them to measure the economic impacts of unauthorized immigration, not commodities.  I do work with commodities, however, in my current job as an economist for a major ag-lending GSE in the US.

by santiago on Thu Sep 24th, 2009 at 10:32:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Are economists told, just to name one important dynamical system, about the Lotka-Volterra equation and, more importantly, what it means? How about the Logistic growth model?

I would doubt it, given that it's even possible to get a physics degree without seeing these things, or being told what they mean or why they matter (being taught how to solve the equations in a monkey-see-monkey-do fashion even if one hasn't seen them before is not that hard, and it's not what I'm after).

And let's not even talk about the Logistic map or Poincaré's qualitative analysis of critical points of dynamical systems (of which, shockingly, I cannot find a trace in wikipedia either).

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Sep 24th, 2009 at 11:03:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, they're not. But they are equipped with the mathematical tools to figure it out if their research can be enhanced by that knowledge. Keen argues that the reason that economists don't see key relationships between their work and advances in other fields is due to lack of appropriate intellectual training.  This is clearly false given the increasingly math-heavy curricula in most programs, particularly in all of the tier 1 and tier 1 wannbe schools.  

I think Krugman has the better argument here.  It's not for lack of math skills that mainstream economics has failed to learn from other fields or even from other economists -- it's ideological conformity to the discourse of a certain politically and economically powerful group of people.

by santiago on Thu Sep 24th, 2009 at 01:11:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's not for lack of math skills that mainstream economics has failed to learn from other fields or even from other economists -- it's ideological conformity to the discourse of a certain politically and economically powerful group of people.

That too.

At some point, tho', one has to wonder how committed economists, en mass, are to the strictures of Scientific Investigation, specifically the role of evidence.  One thing I have notice is economists tend to place a high value on the epistemic conclusion(s) of mathematical calculations and the use of mathematical reasoning as "Proof Text."

This suggests, to me, economists are somewhat out of the main stream of intellectual life when it comes to mathematical epistemology.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Thu Sep 24th, 2009 at 04:19:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There is truth to that, but there's a good reason for it too, as given by philosopher Ludwig Wittgenstein.  In natural science math is used as a language to organize thinking to determine the truth or not of propositions regarding states of affairs in nature.  The end of a scientific argument is to accept or reject such a proposition about something observable in nature. The truth of a given state of affair is determined through the language of science, epitomized by mathematical reasoning.  But lots of things are real, true, or matter to us even if they are not observable in nature, and science is limited regarding what it can say about those things.

Social science is different from natural science in that rejecting or accepting propositions about observable evidence in nature are only the beginning of the inquiry and are not necessarily the most important part. Math for social scientists provides a language for organizing thoughts about observable evidence in order to engage in further thinking about philosophical or moral questions of an abstract, non-observable nature regarding justice, happiness, well-being, power, etc.

The language for philosophic inquiry, which is different from scientific inquiry, can include math but isn't limited by it. Personal experience and wisdom imparted through art, music, literature, etc. are all relevant to distinguishing truth from falsehood, and sometimes truth or falsehood isn't even the interesting question at hand. Scientific language, such as math, like any other language, is limited by what it can say regarding philosophic inquiry, which is what is meant by Wittgenstein's famous line from his thesis: "What we cannot speak of we must pass over in silence."

That is, there exists matters for which science can offer little or no insight, and attempts do so are not necessarily false but can be nonsensical. Social science attempts to usefully employ the language of science to inform, but not definitively determine, the truth about such matters. However, social scientists, especially economists, face an ever-present danger in speaking nonsense through their use of scientific language in a way that does not present itself to natural scientists.

Science has achieved a very high regard in social discourse today, so many social scientists, as well as natural scientists, mistake the limits of scientific language in uncovering the truth about unobservable states of affairs. People today generally accept scientific evidence as proof of truth, and even when they disagree, they argue about "bad science" and not that science is bad.  As a result, science has often been used as a merely rhetorical or coercive tool in discourse about non-scientific, philosophical matters such as power, justice, and well-being, resulting in a lot of nonsense.

Economists aren't the only ones guilty of this, but the opportunity for falling into the trap of talking nonsense is likely to be greater in economics because both the matters of interest and the intellectual tools developed to address them are more concentrated in that field than in others.  You're more likely to step on a landmine if your job requires you to work in a minefield.

by santiago on Thu Sep 24th, 2009 at 06:10:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
ideological conformity to the discourse of a certain politically and economically powerful group of people.

There is likely to be a rather broad agreement on the pernicious effect of this factor on this site, and if we agree on that we agree on a lot.  I would assume that both the minimal and the typical practical mathematics requirements for economics degrees, especially at the graduate levels, have steadily increased since the mid '60s, (when we were all Keynesians, according to Time Magazine.)  

But many of the people who are now senior in the field would have gotten their degrees at the beginning of this process and, further, did not find any encouragement to apply their skills and efforts to paradigm challenging efforts such as replacing equilibrium based analysis with dynamic analysis.

This is poignantly illustrated by J.E.King in his book, A History of Post Keynesian Economics since 1936, in a footnote on page 134.  The link is to a PDF, so I will summarize and then quote briefly:

In 1980 Davidson applied to the NSF for a grant to write International Money and the Real World  The NSF had two groups of evaluators.  The larger was the inside evaluators but there was a group of outside evaluators as well.  His application was rejected but he got the comments of all evaluators and their ratings.  All of the outside evaluators thought it was a valuable project and praised previous work.  All of the insiders rated it low and acknowledged but minimized his previous work.  Davidson paraphrased the reasoning of one: "It is true that Davidson has a good track record and surprisingly good publications, but he marches to a different drummer. If he is marching to a different drummer, if his music is different, then he ought to get his own money and not use ours."  (Paul Davidson is, I believe, still alive.  It would be interesting to ask him who was that particular reviewer.  Our favorite MF?)

Starting on page 122 there is a discussion of the impact of Thomas Kuhn's The Structure of Scientific Revolutions on the Post Keynesians which culminates with Joan Robinson in New Orleans.  It seems as though in 1971 somehow John Kenneth Gailbraith was President of the American Economics Association and invited Joan Robinson to deliver the annual Richard T. Ely lecture.  Irony of ironies, as Ely was nominally the author of one of the most popular Neo-Classical Economics standard texts in introductory economics. Robinson pulled no punches and hoped to influence US graduate students in economics. The Post Keynesians were confident that they were riding the new wave of economic theory and strove to rescue Keynes from the embrace of the Neo-Classicals.  To quote from King: "By introducing Walrasian microfoundations, which abolished historical time and thereby eliminated uncertainty, mainstream theorists had put Keynes to sleep (Robinson, 1972 pp.3,4.) This was an echo of Robinson's earlier critique of the neo-classical synthesis, which she had scathingly described as 'pre-Keynesian economics after Keynes.' (Robinson 1964."

Unfortunately it was not only NSF grants that were denied to those who marched to different drummers, it was academic and, especially, careers in business and government that almost entirely went to members of the official church. This is why I have reacted negatively to assertions that "Keynes is mainstream economics."  In the USA Keynes General Theory was rebuilt on neo-classical foundations and then that re-formulated theory was discredited, and Keynes along with it.    

This is why Keen, Davidson, Robinson and others in the Post Keynesian tradition have seen US Mainstream Economics as little better than a church militant.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Thu Sep 24th, 2009 at 08:47:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Actually, they probably are. The predator/prey model is standard in maths courses given to biological and social science students: it's simple and supposedly interesting to them. Other classic examples in these types of courses are Newton's law of cooling and radio carbon dating. Unless you are claiming that economics students get their own math courses taught by the economics dept, which is certainly possible in some places, although this might explain a lot of other things...

--
$E(X_t|F_s) = X_s,\quad t > s$
by martingale on Thu Sep 24th, 2009 at 09:53:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Good point.
by santiago on Thu Sep 24th, 2009 at 09:57:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think I read that his graphs (which I admit I really don't understand), were generated by his specification of the Minsky model.  He has code published that a piece of mathematical programming software uses to generate the graphs, and I deduce that the graphs are used to indicate whether the model can achieve a stable equilibrium or not, but I'm really not sure.
by santiago on Thu Sep 24th, 2009 at 10:39:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Keen has a link to "models" on his home page.  On that link are currently two models, one being his  "model of Minsky's financial instability hypothesis that includes Ponzi investing", the other being "Endogenous Money Creation and a Credit Crunch"
In a recent post he discusses his ongoing work.  He uses ordinary differential equations in MathCad and a variety of different visualization programs, usually Vissim. I do think that the particular model that he used to generate the graphs was a newer one that he has not yet posted on his "models" page.  Below is a screen shot of the differential equations used in one of his models. Go to the link in this paragraph and scroll down for a readable presentation of one screen.  He appears to use fifteen differential equations.  This is comparable to Phillips' Moniac, which solved fifteen equations, but Keen solves fifteen ordinary differential equations in his model.  
 

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sat Sep 26th, 2009 at 01:13:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I do know that in the '50s key techniques for radar were put into the public domain so that the whole process could develop faster.
Was that the reason, or was it perhaps because work done by US government employees is automatically put in the public domain? I suppose they could have kept some of these techniques classified, if they thought that was going to make a big difference in slowing down the development of radar by others.

I don't think annotated source code would help that much. If the model is defined by a differential equation, that is already (together with boundary conditions) sufficient for someone else to verify the claims.

The trouble with code is that it ages badly. There's plenty of numerical code written in Fortran during the 70s and 80s that practically nobody reads anymore, and even if you try to run it today, the current compilers may well not produce exactly equivalent code to was produced then. By contrast, a 200 year old differential equation is perfectly readable today.

I don't like the term empirics to describe the business of simulations, though. A computer model is completely the opposite of an empirical investigation, and should not be confused with it however tentatively. Perhaps we can call it pretendics?

--
$E(X_t|F_s) = X_s,\quad t > s$

by martingale on Thu Sep 24th, 2009 at 06:09:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The USA certainly did not abandon classification of technology patents.  My understanding is that they began to use them more selectively.  In areas where the USA had a large base of researchers and a significant industrial infrastructure they could choose to put developments into the public domain, confident that the resulting rate of technology development would serve to widen any advantage in that area. Weapons and stealth were two technologies they kept classified.  Integrated circuits remained largely unclassified but patents proliferated.

Claude Shannon's late '30a master's thesis at MIT on operational amplifiers was immediately classified, as vacuum tube op amps were used extensively in analog naval fire control computers.  My friend and mentor, Bella Losmandi, put most of the basic application circuits for op amps into the public domain by including them in his Master's Thesis at USC.  He was senior engineering staff at Hughes at the time, but did so, in part, simply to make certain that he would retain access to these circuits without having to go into the patent defense business.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Thu Sep 24th, 2009 at 10:04:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"Empirics" doesn't refer to the simulation.  It refers to the fact that simulations lack empirical evidence that must be uncovered elsewhere.
by santiago on Thu Sep 24th, 2009 at 10:16:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
BTW, thanks for the link.  I will read it with interest.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Wed Sep 23rd, 2009 at 08:52:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I hate it when people mention the butterfly effect. The picture it conjures is Just Wrong(TM), yet people think it is profound. For the record: no butterfly can, today or in the past of in the future, influence weather patterns in any observable way. It is fundamentally impossible.

--
$E(X_t|F_s) = X_s,\quad t > s$
by martingale on Thu Sep 24th, 2009 at 04:51:40 AM EST
The "butterfly effect" is just a (perhaps poor) metaphor for positive feedback in a non-linear, chaotic system.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Thu Sep 24th, 2009 at 09:48:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What ARGeezer said.

It is fundamentally impossible.

Sorry, but it is "fundamentally" possible.

Sensitivity to Initial Conditions - which is what the Lorenz Butterfly is all about - has been replicated, duplicated, and affirmed a thousand times over.  Certain systems exhibit vastly different behavioral outcomes by exceedingly minor tweaks in the value(s) assigned to the initial variables and constants.  

That things are mathematically possible doesn't imply - much - about them physically occurring. Brownian Motion implies there's a chance all the oxygen molecules will move to a corner of the room you're sitting in and you'll asphyxiate.  

The unlikely chances of that happening doesn't disprove Browning Motion; the unlikely chances of a butterfly flapping it's wings causing, or preventing, a hurricane in Texas doesn't disprove the Butterfly Effect.  

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Thu Sep 24th, 2009 at 11:25:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Positive Lyapunov exponents, noise amplification, unit roots...

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Sep 24th, 2009 at 11:30:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Positive Lyapunov exponents <=> noise amplification


She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
by ATinNM on Thu Sep 24th, 2009 at 11:49:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Terms understandable to different audiences :P

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Sep 24th, 2009 at 12:32:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Note this gives the mathematical basis for a phase transition allowing volume control knobs going to eleven!

So thpfffft to ARGeezer.

(I love mathematics.  It's a rigorous, deductively valid and true, way to hare off into La-La Land.)

LOL


She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Thu Sep 24th, 2009 at 01:10:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I wonder if Barry has concocted a new mathematical system yet?

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Sep 24th, 2009 at 02:42:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Mathematics is based on axioms.

Change the axioms, change the maths.

Mathematics describes Reality.

Change the axioms, change the maths, change Reality.

QED.

Isn't Reasoning© wonderful?

:-)

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Thu Sep 24th, 2009 at 04:07:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Axiomatic, my dear Watson...

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Sep 24th, 2009 at 04:48:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If you're still interested, figured out a way to discuss Triangular Numbers without violating the NDA.
 

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
by ATinNM on Thu Sep 24th, 2009 at 11:55:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Whaddayamean if?

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Sep 24th, 2009 at 12:31:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Okay.

If you can stand my perplexed babble I can certainly produce it.  (In vast quantities, no less.  :-)

I'll throw-up - in all senses - a diary in a couple of days.


She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Thu Sep 24th, 2009 at 01:05:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
All of which are still constrained by physics: don't forget the strange attractors.

--
$E(X_t|F_s) = X_s,\quad t > s$
by martingale on Thu Sep 24th, 2009 at 09:11:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Indeed, chaos = positive Lyapunov exponent + bounded system. Without boundedness you don't get chaos. The boundedness leads to the folding of stretched trajectories that results strange attractors.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Sep 25th, 2009 at 03:51:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]


En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Sep 25th, 2009 at 04:01:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, the pop science metaphor has given you the wrong picture, and you will have to discard it if you wish to reason correctly.

Sensitivity to initial conditions is not a license to imagine any outcome is possible, yet that is implied by the the butterfly/tornado/hurricane picture. All outcomes must always remain constrained by the physics, and those constraints are *serious* cramps on the imagination.

Physically, the butterfly flapping or not is a minuscule energy difference. An observable difference in the atmosphere, be it the presence or absence of a hurricane, or even a change in the path of the hurricane, such a difference represents a huge energy difference. The two are simply not compatible, therefore there cannot be a causal link.

What a butterfly can do is affect a few billion molecules of air, and chaos applies properly to those: their paths can vary widely as a result, and the paths of a further number of billions of molecules of air can be affected over time. None of this is sufficient to change macroscopic properties of a hypothetical hurricane.

You can think of it another way: whether the butterfly flaps its wings or not makes *no* difference to when a hurricane forms or where it goes, which is a function of heating by the sun and water absorption rate etc, all of which occurs over vast distances and involves vast numbers of billions of independent molecules which represent a huge quantity of energy. However, within the hurricane itself the dynamical paths of the molecules may vary widely as a function of the butterfly's flaps: in phase space, this corresponds to two very different paths. These two pictures are compatible, but the pop science metaphor is wrong.



--
$E(X_t|F_s) = X_s,\quad t > s$

by martingale on Thu Sep 24th, 2009 at 09:04:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What you're saying is true unless the "minuscule energy" is amplified by the system rather than being dissipated.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
by ATinNM on Fri Sep 25th, 2009 at 11:12:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Conservation Of Energy: There is no amplification of energy, at best you can inject some externally, eg from the sun. This isn't some small lab experiment.

--
$E(X_t|F_s) = X_s,\quad t > s$
by martingale on Fri Sep 25th, 2009 at 09:08:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
in any observable way.
 

But not for the reason you think.  The butterfly has the effect, but for you to know the effect you would have to run the scenerio twice--once with the butterfly and once without.  And in the case of the weather, you get to run the scenerio one time, only.  So the effect is there but you don't know what it is.  The limitation is on your knowledge, not reality's.  

It is fundamentally impossible
 
Not exactly.  You probably mean a different word here.  Because in computer simulations, you can run the scenerio twice and the effect does show up.  Add the butterly:  Get different weather--sometimes.  

The Fates are kind.
by Gaianne on Thu Sep 24th, 2009 at 07:43:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Nope, the butterfly does not have the effect. It is too small to matter. It is impossible for all the molecules disturbed by the flapping wings to interact with enough molecules in the atmosphere to impart more than an infinitesimal change of momentum in the masses of air. All hurricanes that were going to occur, will occur, and no hurricanes will spontaneously pop into existence.

--
$E(X_t|F_s) = X_s,\quad t > s$
by martingale on Thu Sep 24th, 2009 at 09:38:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Umm, wait:  That goes right to the whole heart of deterministic chaos, and the experiments that led to the idea.  They involved modeling complex systems (like weather) but changing the below-threshold (extra precision) digits in the original conditions.  The two runs diverge and eventually separate to become completely different, so that you could indeed have a hurricane in one and not in the other.  

The Fates are kind.
by Gaianne on Fri Sep 25th, 2009 at 12:49:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No, you haven't understood these (idealised) experiments, unfortunately.

The "runs" are paths in phase space, which represent the evolution of particular quantities plotted on a set of convenient variables. These are not "hurricane" variables, and the fact that two paths diverge does not imply that an associated set of "hurricane" variables diverge as well.

In fact, they can't because the energy difference between hurricane and no hurricane would have to be properly accounted for somehow, and a single butterfly couldn't account for it generically. Or, if you prefer, your two sets of initial conditions cannot be interpreted physically as a butterfly, but rather are going to represent some plausible distribution of energy at the scale of the earth's atmosphere which allows energy accounting to hold.

Here's a simple geometric idea that might help you. Take two paths in the (x,y) plane that traverse the plane in utterly incomprehensible ways. The z variable remains zero throughout, and in this analogy, the value of z controls the appearance of hurricanes. So your butterfly can flap as much as it wants, it simply has no effect on some physical phenomena. The z=0 plane here contains the attractor for the system, but usually this might be a submanifold with a weird shape.

--
$E(X_t|F_s) = X_s,\quad t > s$

by martingale on Fri Sep 25th, 2009 at 09:50:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But the difference isn't between 0 and 1 hurricanes, but between 14 and 15 hurricanes...

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Fri Sep 25th, 2009 at 10:07:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It doesn't matter. How do you explain the energy contained in an extra hurricane? It cannot be explained by a butterfly.

For example, a 1e-6 difference in some parameter value must represent enough energy to cover the formation of 15 minus 14 hurricanes, ie the movements of huge masses of air must be altered regardless of the number of hurricanes. Perhaps if the temperature is 1e-6 degrees higher per unit volume of air that could explain it, but a difference of 1e-6 degrees in a single litre of air in the middle of the pacific ocean makes no difference.

--
$E(X_t|F_s) = X_s,\quad t > s$

by martingale on Sat Sep 26th, 2009 at 12:38:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's not the energy difference contained in one hurricane ; more like three hurricanes containing the same energy as two, larger, hurricanes. A 15 hurricane season or a 14 hurricane season don't need to actually carry a different energy level ; the difference between these two seasons is pretty much random, which is, caused by a slight difference in initial conditions, maybe some years before.

As you raise the amount of energy in the pacific ocean, you'll have a wide band of energy values where 14 or 15 hurricanes seasons are possible. And within that band, sensitivity to initial conditions is such, because of the butterfly effect, that outcomes depend on such low localised differing energy level.

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Sat Sep 26th, 2009 at 07:04:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree with you about the energy bands, but you're no longer talking about an actual butterfly now, are you?

Can we just finally lay the question to rest: no actual physical butterfly (insect) can cause a disturbance in initial atmospheric conditions leading to differing numbers of hurricanes. It's a ludicrous metaphor.

--
$E(X_t|F_s) = X_s,\quad t > s$

by martingale on Sun Sep 27th, 2009 at 01:33:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, we certainly don't want the literal minded to go about killing butterflies to prevent hurricanes.

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sun Sep 27th, 2009 at 01:56:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thank you!

--
$E(X_t|F_s) = X_s,\quad t > s$
by martingale on Sun Sep 27th, 2009 at 01:59:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Maybe removing a butterfly will cause a hurricane... Sensitivity to initial conditions, etc.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Sep 27th, 2009 at 06:11:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Unfortunately, given the limited role of reason in informing social action, even if we had relatively solid evidence, other than, say, positive correlation of butterfly habitat with lower incidence of hurricanes, killing butterflies would likely remain more popular than preserving or increasing them.  Especially if preserving and increasing butterflies were thought to increase the cost of fossil fuels.  ROI trumps all other values combined.

But what I take to be your point is that amplification typically consists of a small factor, such as the control voltage on the grid of a vacuum tube, controlling a much larger factor, such as the energy flow between the cathode and the plate.  There are gross limits on the outputs produced by such processes, in the case of the vacuum tube it would be plate voltage and maximum cathode to plate current and the output would be clipping, in the case of weather it would be total available temperature differential between sources and sinks for the heat engine that is a hurricane and the output would be frequency and intensity of hurricanes, but given sufficiently complex input circuitry and positive feedback, the most minuscule factor or combination of factors could "cause" a hurricane.  Add a microphone and a speaker in a room and ambient noise and acoustic room modes for reverberation can determine the frequencies of electro-acoustic feedback and these modes are affected by the quantity, distribution and frequency dependent absorptive characteristics of surfaces and room contents, especially audience members.  Add high profile performers and guests and the sound mixer is even likely to experience butterflies in his stomach, which could "cause" him to nudge the wrong slide pot at the wrong time.    

As the Dutch said while fighting the Spanish: "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sun Sep 27th, 2009 at 09:59:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Don't be silly.

--
$E(X_t|F_s) = X_s,\quad t > s$
by martingale on Sun Sep 27th, 2009 at 07:58:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
However, there is not just one butterfly, but many of them. And, logically, if a butterfly's wing flap can trigger a hurricane, another butterfly might at the same time prevent one. Now we have a problem: how can we tell hurricane-triggering butterflies from the hurricane inhibiting ones...

And why stop at butterflies: there must be hurricane- triggering (or inhibiting) flies, mosquitoes, bees, wasps, hornets, penguins...    

"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet

by Melanchthon on Sun Sep 27th, 2009 at 10:00:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sorry, but no, I can't leave this to rest. In the (extremely) multi dimensional space of initial conditions, there are regions where both 14 and 15 hurricane outcomes are dense, which is what I meant by 'energy bands'. And mathematically dense in this meaning, indeed means that the physical action of a butterfly can change the number of hurricanes.

Or more precisely, as that is the actual statement of the butterfly effect, that neglecting the effect of the butterfly batting his wings will end up making previsions about the number of hurricanes wrong. The weather is highly divergent, unlike climate.

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Sun Sep 27th, 2009 at 05:43:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well then you really should educate yourself about how hurricanes form, because you appear to have some misconceptions on what physical phenomena are involved.

Perhaps you'd prefer to do an experiment instead: catch a butterfly, and place it next to an SUV. Now wait until it flaps its wings and see if the car is flipped over. That's what you are claiming (in fact, you are claiming slightly more: that the butterfly can conjure up a whole hurricane which in turn will flip over the SUV).

I suggest you attach yourself securely to the ground while doing the experiment :)

--
$E(X_t|F_s) = X_s,\quad t > s$

by martingale on Sun Sep 27th, 2009 at 07:57:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You mean to suggest that the energy imparted by the flap of the butterfly's wings can't trigger a hurricane, right? Because it's too small?

Two words: Trigger finger.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Sep 27th, 2009 at 08:31:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
To be fair, butterflies don't carry guns.

This is another good example of narrative logic. It makes sense as an example of sensitivity to initial conditions. But I'm not convinced that it's physically true - not because butterflies just aren't that bad ass, but because the initial conditions aren't that sensitive.

If they were, almost anything at all would spread more energy into the weather system and create a potential hurricane than a butterfly - including people posting on ET, animals running around, and trees falling over in forests, whether or not anyone is listening to them.

("Solipsise this, monkeys." Etc.)

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sun Sep 27th, 2009 at 09:05:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, they do. That's why it's pretty hard to know how many hurricanes there'll be next season - or how warm it'll be in Paris in three weeks - and why meteorology is hard. And that's also why actual economics prediction is hard too.

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Sun Sep 27th, 2009 at 09:09:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No. Butterflies aren't the reason why meteorology is hard. Try measurement problems, difficult models, and complex interactions of (large, ie on geographic scales) physical processes. Butterflies are orders of magnitude too irrelevant in this.

--
$E(X_t|F_s) = X_s,\quad t > s$
by martingale on Sun Sep 27th, 2009 at 09:23:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Even if those problems were solved, meteorology would still be hard - neglecting butterfly flaps would mean we'd get good previsions for quite some longer time, but still wouldn't be precise enough on the long term for making sure next year's wedding would be sunny.

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Sun Sep 27th, 2009 at 09:29:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, I'm not denying unpredictability, I'm only denying that an insect is part of and relevant to the cause of unpredictability. The phenomena that matter are orders of magnitude bigger than a butterfly.

--
$E(X_t|F_s) = X_s,\quad t > s$
by martingale on Sun Sep 27th, 2009 at 10:19:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But those phenomena can be influenced by phenomena an order of magnitude lower, etc...

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Sun Sep 27th, 2009 at 10:25:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You're still talking in generalities rather than using physics.

Catch a butterfly, put it in a room, where there are no appreciable air currents. Sit two metres away from the butterfly, and tell me if you feel its wings batting. Do you even hear the wings batting? Now do the same experiment outside, where there is some wind. Do you feel the air pressure from the flapping wings?

There are no circumstances under which the flap will travel out into the sea or up into the atmosphere and generate a change in air flow, which would not have occurred without the flap. The statistics are as ludicrous as repealing the second law of thermodynamics. Long before any qualitative effect will be felt, other circumstances will have caused the pressure front to dissipate into noise.

Chaos does not mean every romantic notion makes sense, there are still physical and statistical constraints.

--
$E(X_t|F_s) = X_s,\quad t > s$

by martingale on Sun Sep 27th, 2009 at 10:38:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, statistically, an earth old enough would at one point get all its air one only one side of it...

Saying that an effect is negligible is useful to actually do physics ; but when effects practically emerge out of noise - which is what most of the weather is, when it comes to numbers of hurricanes - the noise that emerge out of a butterfly flapping its wing and the noise that comes from the butterfly not flapping its wings are statistically undistinguishable, and thermodynamically too ; but it doesn't prevent them from having different effects.

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Mon Sep 28th, 2009 at 04:04:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Statistically, the solar system will never get old enough that the earth could have all its atmosphere on a single side. When the earth is gone, it won't happen either, obviously. Thus, statistically, this scenario cannot happen. Ever.



--
$E(X_t|F_s) = X_s,\quad t > s$

by martingale on Mon Sep 28th, 2009 at 06:51:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

This has not a lot to do with models, complexity of the interactions, the size of the regions, or orders of magnitude of perturbations. We're talking about a turbulent system in which a minute change in initial conditions can result in macroscopic differences down the line. If you want it does have something to do with the impossibility to measure and compute trajectories to the required accuracy (that's what a positive Lyapunov exponent in a bound system implies).

What Lorenz discovered was that if he took a run of his climate model from an intermediate point but truncated the data to 3 decimal places he got a completely different solution to the equations. The same thing would have happened had he truncated to 6 decimal places or any finite amount.

Since the weather is not a conservative system but it has several external sources of energy, a small disturbance will not be the source of energy difference between two weather patters but it may well be the source of the difference between the system bifurcating at a particular point or not.

This is what the Lorenz attractor represents. Imagine that the left lobe means "a hurricane next year" and the right lobe means "no hurricane next year". There is a "negligible" (well, apparently not :-) difference in energy between two nearby paths in the centre of the attractor but the macroscopic behaviour is quite different.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Sep 28th, 2009 at 04:11:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The question is really how much of a difference - numerically - the butterfly makes.

My common sense suggestion is that there's so much entropic mush happening around the butterfly that the implied 'all other things being equal' becomes irrelevant.

All other things won't be equal. You don't have system-butterfly and system+butterfly. You have system as an integral of everything which might - possibly - poke the model into different responses.

But what makes this interesting is the fact that it's a catchy narrative - so much so that people keep talking about it and discussing it - rather than the real physics.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Sep 28th, 2009 at 07:16:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
ThatBritGuy:
The question is really how much of a difference - numerically - the butterfly makes.
The question is really how much of a difference - numerically - there is between the initial conditions of two weather patterns with or without a hurricane in a particular region and time interval. I don't have a weather model in my laptop but I presume it's quite smaller than measurement errors.

Which is the whole point here.

Not to say that Steve Keen's

The Lorenz Attractor is clearly one-take a look at it and you'll see why people often talk of "the Butterfly Effect" when describing the instability of the weather.
is not bullshit is not a misstatement of the usual "butterfly effect".

Though possibly replacing the old "a butterfly batting its wings results in a hurricane" with the butterfly shape of the Lorenz attractor would be an improvement.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Sep 28th, 2009 at 07:37:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Weather models typically quantise areas and volumes to hundreds or thousands of meters - if only because it's difficult to get more accurate data.

I suppose in theory the limit of resolution is the Planck length. And also in theory, if a group of air molecules were over here rather than over there, that might affect the initial conditions enough to create a macro-level result.

But in practice there's a huge gap between that level of precision, and the numerical models used for simulation.

Since the numerical models aren't bad - considering the low input resolution of the data - it's not totally unreasonable to assume that very small physical effects are under the noise floor, and can't be considered direct causal factors that can reliably drive a bifurcation.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Sep 28th, 2009 at 08:18:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But noise can drive a bifurcation. And a butterfly is noise. And many other things are.

If one says "minute differences in air flow below our ability to measure them can be amplified to the point of making a difference in whether a hurricane will form in a given region in a given time period" nobody will bat an eye. But replace "minute differences in air flow below our ability to measure them" with " a butterfly batting its wings" and people will trot out statistics and the Planck length and whatever they can come up with to say it's a silly metaphor.

The limit of resolution is not the Planck length, it is the limit at which you can no longer talk of a fluid and have to talk about individual molecules.

Hurricanes and scales of hundreds or thousands of metres are a red herring here. If you have wates escape down a drain at high speed you'll get vortices forming and detaching. These structures have a coherence that allows them to be treated like objects just like a hurricane or cloud front. There is no way to predict how many of them will form, or where or when or for how long they'll last (though the statistical properties can be reliably computed). What matters is that the Reynolds number is high enough to amplify noise. Any noise. Even the batting of a butterfly's wings.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Sep 28th, 2009 at 09:03:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Migeru:
noise can drive a bifurcation
On futher reflection, this is actually wrong.

What drives the bifurcation is the Lyapunov exponent or the fact that the geometry of phase space is hyperbolic.

Noise just determines which side of the bifurcation you are on.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Sep 28th, 2009 at 10:14:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
(replying here for convenience although I saw your correction below)

But noise can drive a bifurcation. And a butterfly is noise. And many other things are.
And noise can also stabilise a system. This is used every day by engineers. Take a system with an unstable equilibrium, insert continual noise, and the unstable equilibrium can become stable.

The classic example is the inverted pendulum, which is an impressive and fun lab demonstration. There's a video link on that page that's worth watching for those who have never seen this sort of thing.

If we're going to be talking in generalities, inferring actual properties of the atmosphere solely from qualitative mathematical insights about noise propagation (doesn't this all sound a bit scholastic?), then I want to expand the range of phenomena to include the stabilising properties of noise. Now we have chaos where a small difference in initial conditions is magnified out of proportion by instability, and we also have increased stability where a small difference in initial conditions actually helps the system to stay the same.

I still maintain the butterfly is a silly metaphor, precisely because people take it seriously and are willing to throw away relevant but mundane physics and empirical evidence in favour of a story about chaotic paths in abstract systems.

--
$E(X_t|F_s) = X_s,\quad t > s$

by martingale on Mon Sep 28th, 2009 at 07:41:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
martingale:
And noise can also stabilise a system. This is used every day by engineers. Take a system with an unstable equilibrium, insert continual noise, and the unstable equilibrium can become stable.
But this requires fine-tuned noise. If the noise is just some random noise, it won't stabilize the system.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Sep 29th, 2009 at 04:26:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Your objection isn't any less problematic (if we're talking abstractly) than expecting certain localized perturbations to cause a catastrophic conversion of an available store of potential energy.

Concretely however, if we're talking about butterflies, I would agree that the random flapping of all the butterflies in the world does not stabilize any of the layers of the atmosphere, but then I don't think it influences hurricanes either.

--
$E(X_t|F_s) = X_s,\quad t > s$

by martingale on Tue Sep 29th, 2009 at 05:20:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
martingale:
Your objection isn't any less problematic (if we're talking abstractly) than expecting certain localized perturbations to cause a catastrophic conversion of an available store of potential energy.
Have you played with the triangle map?


f(x) = min(2x, 2-2x) for x in [0,1]

x_{n+1} = f(x_n)


This map forgets the leading bit of x and "amplifies" the other ones. It follows that a perturbation of size less than 2-n dominates the path after n steps.

If you want you can add noise and devise a Kalman filter with this underlying model.

We can then talk about whether disturbances smaller than your measurement errors can affect the macroscopic properties of a time series.

The point is that this simple map captures the topological properties of stretching and folding in dynamical systems. If you think this is too much of a toy model, replace it with


f(x) = λx(1-x)

And if you still think this is too much of a toy model replace it with any discretised numerical integration method. Or with Lorenz's attractor. Or run a weather simulator on your laptop.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Sep 29th, 2009 at 05:32:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This has not a lot to do with models, complexity of the interactions, the size of the regions, or orders of magnitude of perturbations. We're talking about a turbulent system in which a minute change in initial conditions can result in macroscopic differences down the line.
Sorry, but we're not. This idea that turbulence pervades all the layers of the atmosphere and magnifies minute changes is simply not true. The location and scale is important, and magnitude is obviously related to volume in this context.

At the small scale, the atmosphere simply dissipates perturbations. You see it and feel it every day. If it didn't happen, we'd be living with extreme microstorms everywhere. It would probably be dangerous to breathe in and out. It's patently false to take positive reinforcement as anything but exceptional.

What Lorenz discovered was that if he took a run of his climate model from an intermediate point but truncated the data to 3 decimal places he got a completely different solution to the equations. The same thing would have happened had he truncated to 6 decimal places or any finite amount.
So what? These are differential equations for an idealized fluid which are fitted to a several thousand points that cover an area the size of Europe. Each measurement has so much uncertainty than an actual butterfly (insect) would not be detected if it was right next to the instrument.

Since the weather is not a conservative system but it has several external sources of energy, a small disturbance will not be the source of energy difference between two weather patters but it may well be the source of the difference between the system bifurcating at a particular point or not.
You're right, it's not conservative, although if you're talking about the effect of perturbations due to an insect, the actual heat exchanges at the interfaces are irrelevant and can be set to zero. Even so, if you're talking about one versus two distinguishable hurricanes, that's a lot of mass of air that must be moved and explained without invoking heat exchanges (if it has to be due to an insect).

This is what the Lorenz attractor represents. Imagine that the left lobe means "a hurricane next year" and the right lobe means "no hurricane next year".
Or let's not imagine willy nilly, unless the graph is really supposed to classify hurricane occurrence by time at a certain location on the earth (which?).

--
$E(X_t|F_s) = X_s,\quad t > s$
by martingale on Mon Sep 28th, 2009 at 07:19:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
martingale:
Or let's not imagine willy nilly, unless the graph is really supposed to classify hurricane occurrence by time at a certain location on the earth (which?).
Lorenz was studying some sort of weather model. The 3D system that produces the Lorenz attractor is the result of Lorenz stripping down the weather model to the smallest set of equations that still had sensitive dependence on initial conditions.
if you're talking about the effect of perturbations due to an insect, the actual heat exchanges at the interfaces are irrelevant and can be set to zero
What I'm talking about is that you can theoretically trace back and forth in time the evolution of the weather system. Suppose you start from a hurricane forming and trace the system's history back in time as long as in an arbitrary (but finite-size, set by you) neighbourhood of the path of the system in phase space all other paths also end up in a hurricane forming. At some point your neighbourhood will intersect a history of the system which doesn't contain a hurricane. At that point you say "aha! this is the cause of the hurricane, if only this or that variable would have been different, the hurricane wouldn't have formed". That is a mistake of the narrative logic that looks for individual causes for any big event. The hurricane wasn't caused by anything, it's a feature of the system. But nevertheless it is possible to find a point in the past where a minute perturbation, of arbitrarily small size, makes the difference between the hurricane happening or not happening.

While it is true that a minute difference in the system's variables determines whether there is a hurricane in the future, it borders on the absurd to say this is the cause of the hurricane. And the noise is also not the cause of the bifurcation. The cause of the bifurcation is that the phase space of the system has a hyperbolic geometry (since paths diverge exponentially).

And the paradox of fluid mechanics is that you would think the more viscous the system the higher the dissipation so the less effect any given noise can have on the future evolution of the system (since it dissipates so quickly). But in fact the more viscous the system the more important the nonlinear effects are in the Navier Stokes equation:

So what? These are differential equations for an idealized fluid which are fitted to a several thousand points that cover an area the size of Europe. Each measurement has so much uncertainty than an actual butterfly (insect) would not be detected if it was right next to the instrument.
So what? The point is that we know that differences in initial data smaller than experimental resolution can be the difference between there being a hurricane or not long enough down the line. Which means after a relatively short time ("relatively short" because it is logarithmic in the precision of your measurements) you don't know anything any more.

This idea that turbulence pervades all the layers of the atmosphere and magnifies minute changes is simply not true.
Is it not? Turbulence pervades the entire troposphere which is where weather happens, all the way to the earth's surface. And sensitive dependence on initial conditions occurs both at the planetary scale and at the scale of a dust devil.
At the small scale, the atmosphere simply dissipates perturbations. You see it and feel it every day. If it didn't happen, we'd be living with extreme microstorms everywhere.
Yes, we're living in microstorms everywhere:
The primary flow of a fluid, particularly in the majority of the flow field remote from solid surfaces immersed in the fluid, is usually very similar to what would be predicted using the basic principles of physics, and assuming the fluid is inviscid. However, in real flow situations, there are regions in the flow field where the flow is significantly different in both speed and direction to what is predicted for an inviscid fluid using simple analytical techniques. The flow in these regions is the secondary flow. These regions are usually in the vicinity of the boundary of the fluid adjacent to solid surfaces where viscous forces are at work, such as in the boundary layer.


En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Sep 29th, 2009 at 04:16:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But, in any case, who are we to tell the leading meteorologists they are wrong?

Butterfly effect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The term "butterfly effect" itself is related to the work of Edward Lorenz, and is based in chaos theory and sensitive dependence on initial conditions, first described in the literature by Jacques Hadamard in 1890[1] and popularized by Pierre Duhem's 1906 book. The idea that one butterfly could eventually have a far-reaching ripple effect on subsequent historic events seems first to have appeared in a 1952 short story by Ray Bradbury about time travel (see Literature and print here) although Lorenz made the term popular. In 1961, Lorenz was using a numerical computer model to rerun a weather prediction, when, as a shortcut on a number in the sequence, he entered the decimal .506 instead of entering the full .506127 the computer would hold. The result was a completely different weather scenario.[2] Lorenz published his findings in a 1963 paper for the New York Academy of Sciences noting that "One meteorologist remarked that if the theory were correct, one flap of a seagull's wings could change the course of weather forever." Later speeches and papers by Lorenz used the more poetic butterfly. According to Lorenz, upon failing to provide a title for a talk he was to present at the 139th meeting of the American Association for the Advancement of Science in 1972, Philip Merilees concocted Does the flap of a butterfly's wings in Brazil set off a tornado in Texas as a title.
(My emphasis)
While the butterfly does not "cause" the tornado in the sense of providing the energy for the tornado, it does "cause" it in the sense that the flap of its wings is an essential part of the initial conditions resulting in a tornado, and without that flap that particular tornado would not have existed.


En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Sep 29th, 2009 at 04:36:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Perhaps you would prefer to read about it from the horse's mouth?

Here is Lorenz's view on the butterfly, in his own words. This is an appendix of his book "The Essence of Chaos". I had a look at it yesterday, there's one chapter on atmospheric models, with various descriptions of the models for laypeople which is nice to read.

But I digress. If you read the link above, you'll notice that Lorenz is *very* careful to not imply the truth of the literal insect/hurricane connection. He knows that is extremely tenuous, and of course rather uninteresting compared with the wider question he wants to pose. The butterfly was always intended as a catchphrase, and my point is that too often it is taken literally.

--
$E(X_t|F_s) = X_s,\quad t > s$

by martingale on Tue Sep 29th, 2009 at 05:34:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
martingale:
my point is that too often it is taken literally.
You come off as denying that deterministic chaos even exists, to be honest.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Sep 29th, 2009 at 05:39:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You come off as denying that deterministic chaos even exists, to be honest.
I guess this sort of thing is in the eye of the beholder. Your statements here sound to me like you view the world through a single paradigm. It's funny how threads evolve :)

--
$E(X_t|F_s) = X_s,\quad t > s$
by martingale on Tue Sep 29th, 2009 at 06:30:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The Butterfly Effect
More generally, I am proposing that over the years minuscule disturbances neither increase nor decrease the frequency of occurrence of various weather events such as tornados; the most that they may do is to modify the sequence in which these events occur. The question which really interests us is whether they can do even this - whether, for example, two particular weather situations differing by as little as the immediate influence of a single butterfly will generally after sufficient time evolve into two situations differing by as much as the presence of a tornado. In more technical language, is the behavior of the atmosphere unstable with respect to perturbations of small amplitude?
Right, so... in this paper he says that "the evidence that the atmosphere is unstable is overwhelming", understanding by "unstable" that
two particular weather situations differing by as little as the immediate influence of a single butterfly will generally after sufficient time evolve into two situations differing by as much as the presence of a tornado
What exactly are we in disagreement about in this thread? It's not clear to me.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Sep 29th, 2009 at 05:44:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
We are in disagreement about the propagation of a wave of air particles due to a single insect flapping its wings in some continent, and a hurricane being generated in the carribean from this added energy imparted to the atmosphere.

Here are some more Lorenz quotes to complement yours.

One hypothesis, unconfirmed, is that the influence of a butterfly's wings will spread in turbulent air, but not in calm air.
and also
A second point is that Brazil and Texas lie in opposite hemispheres. The dynamical properties of the tropical atmosphere differ considerably from those of the atmosphere in temperate and polar latitudes. It is almost as if the tropical atmosphere were a different fluid. It seems entirely possible that an error might be able to spread many thousands of miles within the temperate latitudes of either hemisphere, while yet being unable to cross the equator.


--
$E(X_t|F_s) = X_s,\quad t > s$
by martingale on Tue Sep 29th, 2009 at 06:42:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
martingale:
from this added energy
Nobody's saying it's because of the added energy.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Sep 29th, 2009 at 07:23:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That has been my impression. No energy, no flapping, no butterfly.

--
$E(X_t|F_s) = X_s,\quad t > s$
by martingale on Tue Sep 29th, 2009 at 07:56:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's not about the energy...

In Liquid and Air, Scientists Find Order Among the Chaos - NYTimes.com

The structures are invisible because they often exist only as dividing lines between parts of a flow that are moving at different speeds and in different directions. In the ocean, the path of a drop of water on one side of such a structure might diverge from the path of a drop of water on the other side; they will drift farther apart as time passes.


En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Sep 29th, 2009 at 08:44:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
See the last two paragraphs of one of my very first comments on this thread, which paint a similar picture to your article. We're just going in circles at this point.

--
$E(X_t|F_s) = X_s,\quad t > s$
by martingale on Tue Sep 29th, 2009 at 09:51:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I have no qualms about Lorenz's model, and I'm quite happy to accept it for what it is: a nice illustration of chaotic dynamics, an a cautionary tale for modellers in all fields.
What I'm talking about is that you can theoretically trace back and forth in time the evolution of the weather system [...] The hurricane wasn't caused by anything, it's a feature of the system. But nevertheless it is possible to find a point in the past where a minute perturbation, of arbitrarily small size, makes the difference between the hurricane happening or not happening.
In the model, sure. But the model doesn't describe anywhere near something at the scale of a butterfly. All there is are some weather measurement stations in various places, which measure temperature, wind speed, etc and a coarse discretization grid (coarse when compared to the size of a butterfly). Anything the model says in between the grid points is interpolation based on the Euler and Lagrange formalisms for fluids, and there's certainly no continual driving terms which might represent small insects, or human industrial activity for that matter. The weather models are simply not designed to say anything about insects, and claiming that they do because the existing equations happen to be extremely sensitive to perturbations is not in itself convincing.

I'll grant you some microstorms, although I don't think I'll scapegoat butterflies for them yet.

--
$E(X_t|F_s) = X_s,\quad t > s$

by martingale on Tue Sep 29th, 2009 at 06:17:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
butterflies don't carry guns

Well, that's a bold claim! You can only say that you've never seen a butterfly carrying a gun, or that nobody has ever seen a butterfly carrying a gun. Which only proves that the butterflies you (or they) have seen did not carry a gun. And even in that case, don't overlook the possibility that one might have not noticed the butterfly had a concealed carry weapon...

"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet

by Melanchthon on Sun Sep 27th, 2009 at 10:17:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I expect the black swans ate them all.
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Sep 28th, 2009 at 07:08:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sure, now all you have to do is explain how come the earth's atmosphere happens to be, after millenia of existence, in exactly the right unstable equilibrium state such that a flap causes the system to unwind into a hurricane.



--
$E(X_t|F_s) = X_s,\quad t > s$

by martingale on Sun Sep 27th, 2009 at 09:18:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Because there are two huge, huge source of entropy over and under the atmosphere that prevent it from freezing over ?

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Sun Sep 27th, 2009 at 09:26:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You're still talking in generalities. Try being specific about butterflies, eg How many butterflies are there? Just where do they have to flap to cause a momentum change in a few tons of air? Which part of the atmosphere must "feel" the flap? The page I linked to explains the relevant factors.



--
$E(X_t|F_s) = X_s,\quad t > s$

by martingale on Sun Sep 27th, 2009 at 09:52:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's explained upthread. Your questions show you haven't tried to understand it, nor anything about what Lorenz discovered.

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Sun Sep 27th, 2009 at 09:55:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No it's not. What's "explained" upthread is, to paraphrase, that qualitative mathematics insight implies everything is possible. Which is patently false.

--
$E(X_t|F_s) = X_s,\quad t > s$
by martingale on Sun Sep 27th, 2009 at 10:21:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I am not saying "a butterfly can conjure a hurricane" but that "a butterfly may be the difference between there being 14 or 15 hurricanes".

I could of course point out that if the SUV was in an unstable equilibrium on a point, a butterfly can possibly flip it over. And that a butterfly in the eye of a SUV driver can certainly cause an accident flipping the SUV over.

But as long as misconceptions about such mathematical and physical concepts as divergence, chaos theory, and stability, which are indeed what the butterfly effect are about, are not cleared, you won't get the point.

I'll cite wikipedia, because that seems to be the crux of your misunderstanding : "While the butterfly does not "cause" the tornado in the sense of providing the energy for the tornado, it does "cause" it in the sense that the flap of its wings is an essential part of the initial conditions resulting in a tornado, and without that flap that particular tornado would not have existed."

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Sun Sep 27th, 2009 at 08:40:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Did you read the NASA kids page on hurricanes? Where in the process does the butterfly (insect) perform the feat of splitting a mass of air into two hurricanes instead of one?

The wikipedia paragraph doesn't say much that's actually physical, somebody should really edit it out. What it's saying is that the flap is an essential component of the initial conditions (proof?), and hurricane dynamics depends on essential components of initial conditions (can we be any vaguer?).



--
$E(X_t|F_s) = X_s,\quad t > s$

by martingale on Sun Sep 27th, 2009 at 09:14:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I didn't see anything about Avogadro's number, or the viscosity of air, or evaporation temperatures of water. It's highly simplified, that's why it's for kids. Maybe you should try to get better information.

As for wikipedia, you clearly need to read the Dense page.

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Sun Sep 27th, 2009 at 09:37:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I know what dense means. I dispute the physical interpretation of the mathematical model, specifically I dispute the notion that an abstract qualitative set of insights into dynamical systems is directly realizable as the mechanical action of an insect near the ground.

In particular, maybe you need to think about the viscous damping of air waves, and the O(N^2) decay of energy in an expanding sphere of radius N centered about a butterfly, and the orders of magnitude differences between a wing flap and a circulating column of air moving at a few km/h.

The impression I get from this discussion is that you are willing to impose on the physical world a theoretical view based on mathematics, regardless of the empirical facts on the ground. Am I wrong? (I don't mean to offend you).



--
$E(X_t|F_s) = X_s,\quad t > s$

by martingale on Sun Sep 27th, 2009 at 10:04:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm not saying that a butterfly has a direct, macro- or meso-scopical causal effect on hurricane formation, either, which is what you seem to think I mean. The butterfly effect means that the number of hurricanes ten years down the road, or next year, is so random as to depend on microscopic movements of small groups of atom. We can't realistically trace a butterfly wing flapping more than a few seconds after the fact, which doesn't mean there's no such trace.

We can't have empirical data on the effect of butterflies on hurricane formation. And the butterfly effect is mostly an insight into how the weather is above all random. Guessing the numbers of hurricanes for the next year is like trying to guess the movements of a dice.

In this discussion, I'm not imposing anything on physical reality, which will go on, whatever we say will be the "cause" of anything. As soon as we are talking about causes, we are playing philosophical, and mathematical, games with reality.

Saying butterflies are the "cause" of hurricanes is meaningless if we try to describe and understand physical reality : as you say, that effect is untraceable. This talk about the butterfly effect is only important to show that meteorological simulation, and the meteorological reality, is highly divergent, so much as to be random in any long term.

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Sun Sep 27th, 2009 at 10:24:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This talk about the butterfly effect is only important to show that meteorological simulation, and the meteorological reality, is highly divergent, so much as to be random in any long term.
Yes, I fully agree with you on the meteorology, and I'm willing to finish it here.

I disagree somewhat on the importance of this discussion, as for me it shows how easy it is to take mathematical ideas out of context, and not question them. The main topic on ET is economics, which is not immune to this problem.

--
$E(X_t|F_s) = X_s,\quad t > s$

by martingale on Sun Sep 27th, 2009 at 11:03:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You think the butterfly is supposed to supply the energy for the hurricane!  Of course not!  

The butterfly is just a trigger, deciding if the energy gets used to form a hurricane or used in SOME OTHER WAY.

An obvious corrollary is that the butterfly can affect the system only if there is (a large amount of) potential energy available to be liberated.  In the case of the weather, sooner or later tbere always is.  

The Fates are kind.

by Gaianne on Sun Sep 27th, 2009 at 03:16:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No, while there are triggers, these must be relevant to the physical processes involved. I'm saying that an actual butterfly's effect is not one of the triggers. You seem to think (correct me if I'm wrong) that as long as a trigger is theoretically possible, anything whatsoever could be the cause.



--
$E(X_t|F_s) = X_s,\quad t > s$

by martingale on Sun Sep 27th, 2009 at 10:28:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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