European Tribune - Community, Politics & Progress.

UK is doomed alert.

by Colman
Mon Feb 1st, 2010 at 06:02:23 AM EST

From Wilkinson and Pickett of Spirit Level fame, writing in the Guardian:

What happened in the later 1980s may now seem merely water under the bridge. But broken Britain is Thatcher's bitter legacy. Rather than having instantaneous effects, inequality gradually corrodes the social fabric. It takes a while for greater material differences to make the social hierarchy steeper, for status competition and consumerism to increase, for people to feel a greater sense of superiority or inferiority, for prejudices towards those lower on the social ladder to harden, for prisons to fill to overflowing under the impact of more punitive sentencing, and for people to seek solace in drugs.
Rather than dealing with inequality, some politicians find it tempting to blame "broken families", "bad parenting" and "damaged" children. Science has made huge leaps in understanding how our biology and psychology are affected by early life experiences, both in the womb and after. Children are deeply sensitive to family relationships and the quality of care. However, this sensitivity, and the way it shapes emotional and cognitive development, is not an evolutionary mistake.
[explanation of why blaming the poor and miserable for being poor and miserable is stupid]
Greater equality improves the quality of life for everyone – not just the poor. Whatever your income or education, living in a more equal society means you will be likely to live longer while being less likely to suffer violence or have a problem with obesity. In turn, your children have a better chance of doing well at school and are less likely to use drugs or to become teenage parents. This is about the quality of life for all of us.

What are the odds that the next election in the UK is going to yield a government capable of understanding what they're saying?

It bothers me mostly because of the spillover into Irish politics that is inevitable. Thatcher's revolution has taken deep root here, if only so politicians can be taken seriously by other serious people.

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UK is doomed alert. | 32 comments (32 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: UK is doomed alert. (4.00 / 2)

When do we get our counter-revolution?

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Feb 1st, 2010 at 06:05:10 AM EST

Re: UK is doomed alert. (4.00 / 5)

When do we get our counter-revolution?

When there is a greater diversity of political representatives who have lived real lives and worked in real jobs before entering politics.

Not only are the poor and miserable blamed for being poor and miserable they are actively sanctioned for it too. Taking the topic of children and 'care' - there is a dual categorisation of children as vulnerable victims needing 'care' and protection, or as threats needing sanctions and punishment but wrapped up in the name of 'care', tough love if you like.

So the numbers of children in the UK who are locked up, either for their own good or for the good of society as a whole is huge and disproportionately targets children from disadvantaged backgrounds (and is also heavily criticised by the UN). For families and children in those situations, they are legitimate targets of state scrutiny and interference and loss of privacy in a way that more affluent families are not.

Despite the fact that there is no evidence that locking up offenders leads to a reduction in repeat offending, or that locking children up in care homes provides protection from vulnerability in the long run, we keep on doing it.

'Deserving' poor and miserable victims get horribly misguided 'help' from the state and 'undeserving' poor and miserable bastards get punished as though they are the threat to society without any thought being given to the fact that society is the threat to them in the first place.

Do our politicians understand this? No. Or we wouldn't be locking children up as a solution to difficult social problems.

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Mon Feb 1st, 2010 at 06:23:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: UK is doomed alert. (4.00 / 2)

When there is a greater diversity of political representatives who have lived real lives and worked in real jobs before entering politics.

That won't help. Once they've been in politics seven years they'll have mostly forgotten their past. Until they've been in politics for ten years they won't be effective. We're a bit fucked if that's our best hope.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Feb 1st, 2010 at 06:26:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: UK is doomed alert. (none / 0)

Then there should be a limit on the number of terms an MP can do? Higher turnover, less chance of becoming totally institutionalised.

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Mon Feb 1st, 2010 at 06:33:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: UK is doomed alert. (4.00 / 4)

Nope, because then they never get to be effective. It takes a couple of years to learn the ropes before you can do anything. They'd end up being even more at the mercy of a professional class of "support staff".

You're doomed anyway you do it. You have to change the environment the parliament operates in - which means the ideological and media environment.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Feb 1st, 2010 at 06:36:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: UK is doomed alert. (none / 0)

To begin with, a reduction of the number of MPs will hopefully contribute to a more transparent, influential and infinitely more efficient Parliament.

by hitchhiker on Mon Feb 1st, 2010 at 06:59:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: UK is doomed alert. (4.00 / 4)

Reducing the number of MPs means that they´ll represent an even larger group of voters. Which probably means that they´ll be even less inclined to help any "minority" (poor or disadvantaged people for example).

Not to mention that a larger "voting district" probably means you need more money for ads, flyers or election staff in an election.

And of course fewer MPs means that interest groups need to "influence" fewer people to advance their interests.
Coupled with the larger " voting districts" mentioned above this seems to be a recipe for larger "interest group" influence.

Just look at the US Senate.

by Detlef (Detlef1961_at_yahoo_dot_de) on Mon Feb 1st, 2010 at 06:17:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: UK is doomed alert. (none / 1)

High turnover, however, might result in less stability and it would be more difficult for relationships of trust to be built and sustained.

by hitchhiker on Mon Feb 1st, 2010 at 06:54:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: UK is doomed alert. (4.00 / 3)

Too many politicians have taken the student politics->researcher->politician line and too many have come into politics as either Lawyers and accountants. with such a narrow ideas base we are going to see a narrowing of possible solutions to problems too.

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Feb 1st, 2010 at 07:28:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: UK is doomed alert. (4.00 / 6)

So we need to widen the base. That's what I'm trying do. Selection processes are hugely problematic because we need to shift attitudes of the membership to understand and embrace the need for diversity in the people they are selecting. We need politicians who 'grew up' outside of the Party machine, and who have wider backgrounds than the student officer/party researcher/lawyer lot.

I think there is a place for some career politicians but we are totally overwhelmed by them at the moment.

If we have enough people who are in politics because they genuinely want to serve the public and they are motivated by their own experiences and personal insights of inequality, then maybe they stand a chance of not becoming totally institutionalised and removed from their experiences and those of others.

New ideas will come in if we get new people in - people who will be willing to find ways of persuading the public that messages from the 'Spirit Level' are the ones to listen to and act on, and not the continuing Thatcherite rhetoric.

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Mon Feb 1st, 2010 at 08:29:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: UK is doomed alert. (none / 0)

I am not entirely sure that someone with say public policy, politics, international relations background and / or research background is necessarily a bad choice when it comes to deciding who should enter politics and who would represent us best!
A generalisation of this nature and magnitude does not do justice to all these young and bright and genuinely smart people who leave the university halls inspired to join central or local authorities and who honestly believe they can bring about the change that is needed. Besides, these recent graduates are equipped with the necessary knowledge base and are a way more capable of making informed decisions than say someone who comes from an entirely irrelevant education background.

by hitchhiker on Mon Feb 1st, 2010 at 10:04:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: UK is doomed alert. (none / 1)

That is why I said that there is a place for some career politicians who have gone through that route.

The problem is that they are 'trained' in quite a narrow way along the lines of a particular ideology and a particular way of working and after time, if personal experience or insight into the experiences of others doesn't show them other alternatives or consequences, then they get stuck in a narrow minded way of thinking. You need people outside of that arena to help influence the evolution of ideologies, the construction of social problems and their causes and from that the development of solutions that may actually work.

If politics consisted only of people who had nothing more than 'real life' to go on and no firm political training, that would be equally disasterous!

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Mon Feb 1st, 2010 at 10:13:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: UK is doomed alert. (none / 1)

I've just noticed that I'm referring specifically to elected political representatives whereas your reference is regarding those who go into civil service? Correct me if I'm wrong.

I know plenty of talented civil servants, but some very obstructive (or just plain useless) ones too. The remit is different and it is up to politicians to choose how much they rely on the civil servants and how much they use their own brains to think through the issues and provide leadership.

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Mon Feb 1st, 2010 at 10:17:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: UK is doomed alert. (none / 1)

I was referring to civil servants indeed but I do believe that the same thing applies to elected representatives. Without trying to undermine in any way the amalgamation of virtues and qualities (honesty, integrity, reliability, responsibility, kindness to name a few) which undoubtedly any MP should be an embodiment of, I still believe that MPs with degrees in politics / public policy are better able to adequately address and respond to the needs / problems of their constituencies. Having completed bachelor and / or master programmes in relevant subjects, these people obviously boast deep and well-grounded understanding of policy frameworks, policy evaluation, theories, policy stages and cycles, etc. That said they are well aware of the challenges ahead and the constraints, within which they have to operate while pursuing any policy objective.

by hitchhiker on Mon Feb 1st, 2010 at 11:01:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: UK is doomed alert. (4.00 / 4)

True, and this is one of the reasons why I am now doing a social policy degree, so I understand the policy formation process much better. I have to say that I don't think that alone would place me well in politics. It merely strengthens the concepts I already hold in my head built upon by experience, and provides me with a means for articulating those concepts and the tools for deconstructing them.

But one thing I have noticed with my Open University degree is that they are very progressive in the way they define issues and teach social policy. I imagine other courses could choose differing ideologies as a base for discussion and I have heard complaints from people who think the OU course is too 'left wing'. ie the examples used to critique different theories and perspectives and conclusions drawn within the structure of the course may differ depend on the leanings of the authors of the syllabus.

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Mon Feb 1st, 2010 at 11:20:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: UK is doomed alert. (4.00 / 4)

I think what I'm really trying to say is that although it is important to understand the process and how politics works, you still need personal reference points to understanding the ultimate impact of policy on real lives.

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Mon Feb 1st, 2010 at 11:23:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: UK is doomed alert. (none / 1)

Many swedish politicians has degrees in politics / public policy but it does not seem to have any effect then giving them a set of tropes in common with the civil servants. Tropes like "direct democracy is bad because who do you fire if the people change their mind?", "any decision made by an elected body is democratic", "single issue movements is irresponsible".

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Tue Feb 2nd, 2010 at 09:48:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: UK is doomed alert. (4.00 / 2)

The problem is not that they lack ability, the problem is that they lack diversity.

Monoculture is bad, because it permits diseases to spread rapidly once they have adapted to the monoculture environment. This is doubly true for diseases of the mind, because they are being actively cultivated and weaponised and various belief tanks.

And, not to put too fine a point upon it, most university grads don't know shit about how things work (or not, as the case may be) for people who do not have the advantages bestowed upon academics.

- Jake

"Terraforming your own planet to make it uninhabitable hardly counts as epic win." - ThatBritGuy

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Feb 1st, 2010 at 10:15:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: UK is doomed alert. (4.00 / 2)

Do our politicians understand this? No. Or we wouldn't be locking children up as a solution to difficult social problems.

Yes, they do. They don't care. The papers like it as a solution and that's what matters. It's not what the politicians know, it's what they can explain to the people and make them believe.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Feb 1st, 2010 at 06:27:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: UK is doomed alert. (4.00 / 6)

Some of the politicians like it as a solution too.

Forget all of that 'family values' nonsense. Here's what conservatives really value:

Social hierarchy
Contempt for and violence against the poor, the 'soft', the foreign and the unusual
Greed and self-aggrandisement
War and violence for their own sake

It's like dealing with rats. Only rats are more altruistic.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Feb 1st, 2010 at 06:58:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: UK is doomed alert. (4.00 / 5)

Colman:

what they can explain to the people and make them believe.

It's unfortunately also what goes over easiest because it's what the people wants.

Children need protection? "Our" children do.

Children are vicious little pre-criminals? "Their" chidren are.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Feb 1st, 2010 at 07:29:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: UK is doomed alert. (4.00 / 4)

What are the odds that the next election in the UK is going to yield a government capable of understanding what they're saying?

Zero.

You've outlined most of why in your response to In Wales.

Question... I was feeling too delicate to venture into the comments section of that page - is it as bad as usual?

If so... well... that highlights what an uphill battle changing the psychological environment around this issue is... after all this isn't a column published in The Times...

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Mon Feb 1st, 2010 at 06:51:04 AM EST

Re: UK is doomed alert. (4.00 / 3)

I can't read much of it either, but this may sum it up:

So, judging by what you say, teenage pregnancy is more to do with poverty than choice. Not according to the Telegraph 03 January 2009.

Not according to the Telegraph? No fucking shit.

I gave up there.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Feb 1st, 2010 at 06:54:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: UK is doomed alert. (4.00 / 7)

I think what I find fascinating is that the neo-liberal right plays it both ways on aggregate vs individual analysis...

Free-markets are "A-OK" because on aggregate society gets richer. (Ignoring for now, as they do, that the evidence suggests this isn't true.)

but...

Teenage pregnancy rises can't be about the system, we have to analyse at the individual level.

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Mon Feb 1st, 2010 at 06:58:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: UK is doomed alert. (none / 1)

Everyone is responsible for themselves. But the playing field needs to be ~~as tilted as possible~~ level to make that possible.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Feb 1st, 2010 at 07:01:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: UK is doomed alert. (4.00 / 4)

At least you'll have some kind of debate why UK is here where it is...
In the election year here in Australia our opposition leader Tony Abbot (recently replacing one who at least did not talk nonsense)made a comment how girls should take their virginity as a gift and save it for marriage.
"Australian women will answer him when they stop laughing" sad one comedian tonight on TV.The other sad that this would be very easy to accomplish if all the men would look like Tony Abbot...:)
Well it's obvious that Australia does not have bigger problems...for now.

by vbo on Mon Feb 1st, 2010 at 07:20:20 AM EST

Re: UK is doomed alert. (4.00 / 2)

inequality gradually corrodes the social fabric.

Poverty corrodes social fabric. Low wages and high cost of living. I doubt people care so much about the "rich" as long as they can do something to improve their own economy.
Inequality corrodes economy. Resulting poverty corrodes everything else.

by kjr63 on Mon Feb 1st, 2010 at 07:48:49 AM EST

Thatcherism (none / 1)

.
Went hand-in-hand with Reaganomics or voodoo economics, Keynes fiscal policy was exchanged for Milton Friedman's liberal financial/banking policy and unregulated capitalism. Globalization exported jobs in exchange for poor quality goods imported at great cost of poor labor conditions in Asia.

At BooMan, some diaries are written about the depression years and the fiscal and economic policy under FDR. After the crash of 1929, the FDR administration got sufficient political capital to push through financial reform and elements of the New Deal with labor/social issues covered in his first 100 days. Apparently, this was a balance needed for future generations to reap the benefits. Bush/Obama's TARP relief for the culprits (big financial/banking institutions) lays the burden on the shoulder of the worker (lay-offs/unemployment). Latest analysis by SIGTARP indicates the short term resolve with greater risks for the near future.

FDR video excerpts

"But I will not let myself be reduced to silence."

by Oui on Mon Feb 1st, 2010 at 08:31:35 AM EST

Re: UK is doomed alert. (4.00 / 4)

I guess it's a cliché that in busting the unions Thatcher eliminated the most effective agents for achieving greater equality.

What doesn't seem to get discussed so much (that I've seen) is that in doing so she also destroyed the promoters of an advanced social and political consciousness.

The propensities to brown-nose upwards, to blame those less fortunate and throw those in similar situations under the bus for the sake of personal gain or when threatened are so widespread that I'm close to taking them as the human norm. Which suggests that principles of solidarity and joint action to the benefit of all are sophisticated notions that require constant reinforcement from an effective, broad-based organization.

The lack of cultivation of such principles would also ramify into other areas, such as attitudes toward "juvenile offenders".

Jesus died for somebody's sins but not mine - Patti Smith

by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Mon Feb 1st, 2010 at 09:50:57 AM EST

Re: UK is doomed alert. (4.00 / 2)

dvx:

The propensities to brown-nose upwards, to blame those less fortunate and throw those in similar situations under the bus for the sake of personal gain or when threatened are so widespread that I'm close to taking them as the human norm.

This tendency must also be cultivated. That's what Murdoch, Springer and their ilk are for.

Wait this is important. Someone is wrong on the Internet.

by generic on Mon Feb 1st, 2010 at 11:18:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: UK is doomed alert. (4.00 / 2)

This tendency must also be cultivated.

You have greater faith in humanity than I do. :-)

I tend to view these tendencies as the default mode, requiring less cultivation than de-inhibition.

But believe me, I would love to be proved wrong.

Jesus died for somebody's sins but not mine - Patti Smith

by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Tue Feb 2nd, 2010 at 03:42:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Fucking fucker blaimed single moms (4.00 / 2)

Blair the fucking war criminal blamed single moms for all the youths' problems 10 years ago.

That's a good catholic.

A 'centrist' is someone who's neither on the left, nor on the left.

by nicta (nico＠altiva․fr) on Mon Feb 1st, 2010 at 12:33:52 PM EST

UK is doomed alert. | 32 comments (32 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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